(Religion Alert): Debunking the Rapture Theory ...

[Tesibria]

For those interested in "entering into the Lions Den" and debunking, BASED ON THE BIBLE* AND HISTORY, the Rapture Theory, I strongly recommend the following Books:

*FN* If you really want to reach the people who so fervently believe in the Rapture, you HAVE to do it in their language. Fortunately, you CAN. These books are all "biblically" based, and show how, based on the strict interpretation of the Bible, the Rapture Theorists are wrong.

Rapture: The End-Times Error That Leaves the Bible Behind, by David B. Currie.
This is my personal favorite. It is totally biblically-based, and shows how (a) the Rapture theory is unbiblical; and (b) how the "prophecies" of Daniel, etc. were actually fulfilled in the first century destruction of Jerusalem. I haven't (yet) seen any Rapture Theory book that can debunk this one. It's long (528 pages) and ... not an "easy" read. But it's terrific.

Will Catholics Be Left Behind: A Critique of the Rapture and Today's Prophecy Preachers, by Carl E. Olson.
Written by a former fundamentalist (now Catholic), this is another very good book. It's only(!) 328 pages long, but still makes the convincing case against the Rapture Theorists.

The Rapture Trap: A Catholic Response to "End Times" Fever, by Paul Thigpen.
This one is short and sweet (100 pages) and written from a Catholic perspective. This is not as good as the others -- but if you're looking for a short book, get this one.

~Tesibria
-----------------------
www.democracyiscoming.com
www.cafepress.com/tesibria (T-shirts, etc. - "Proud Member of Moral Minority"-"Hitler had a mandate"-What would Jefferson Think-Count the Votes-Great Quotes-much more)

[Julius Civitatus]

1. Great PBS Documentary

There's a great documentary from PBS explaining the real meaning of Revelations and debunking the wacko theories fabricated by the fundies:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/apocalypse/explanation/brevelation.html

[Francis]

2. You just don't get it

You can debunk until you are blue in the face, same way you debunked until you were blue in the voting booth.
The way you think that the rapture is seriously stupid, those that believe think any and all debunking is stupid.
Do not waste the energy or the spit

[revree]

4. NOT TRUE, FRANCIS

and please don't insult other DU'ers with YOU JUST DON'T GET IT. I am a minister and have two born again relatives who WERE changed when given Bible-based arguments against the rapture. They even decided against voting for Bush. So, it is possible.

[Francis]

8. It's not an insult

I too know people that believe in the rapture. The fat women know they are going to get a new body.
In my experience, and I'm in Texas so am surrounded. They bitterly resent your belief that they are wrong about this.
All religion is not based on fact but belief and faith and the promise of a new body is just one of the benefits of the rapture that obviously trumps the more mundane.
They don't want "proof" of anything. And at the risk of another insult, I don't see how anything written in the bible is proof of fact and not a theory that promotes belief and faith

[mzmolly]

12. People here DO want discussion, and this is a subject of interest.

The people you refer to are not interested in anything that shakes their beliefs because they find comfort in them.

However there are MANY others who reject the Bible because of the fundie interpretation and said people appreciate an "intellectual" viewpoint.

[Tesibria]

18. I hear you. ..

re: "I don't see how anything written in the bible is proof of fact and not a theory that promotes belief and faith"

... very good point.

I think it's called baby steps. There are some who believe - and who WILL LIKELY NEVER stop believing in the Bible. For those people, the only way to reach them is through the Bible. Can that still be a big problem. Absolutely.

But -- that's (in a very simplified way) how we got the reformation and rennisance -- because people started questioning other people's interpretation of the bible -- which expanded people's minds.

So -- I believe we can start there - in the Bible - and then move from there.

[tanyev]

20. I agree that the "true believers" probably

will not be convinced. However, take somebody like my husband. When we met, he had some religion in his youth but had not been to church in years. Some coworker had been talking to him about the Rapture and had loaned him a couple of the Left Behind books. For all he knew, it was a fictionalized version of something that really is going to happen. I was able to set him straight on that and he was very relieved to not have to read any more of those books. That's the type of person we need to be able to speak to on this subject.

[atreides1]

6. But

For those of us who are Christian, it is our duty to point out the fallacy of the RW beliefs, to our fellow Christians. And if we do this, then we can at least say that we tried to help them, and go on with our lives with clear mind.

Will any of this change their minds, no, but we tried, and that's the point.

[mzmolly]

10. What? You seem to have gone of topic a bit.

The OP posted a thread about the Rapture from a different perspective then we generally hear/think about it.

It's a good topic, and he/she is not trying to call anyone STUPID. He/she is promoting an alternative viewpoint.

If you don't like the thread ... ignore it. :hi:

[Tesibria]

13. I disagree - and I AM EXHIBIT A.

I grew up believing this - was taught it from birth.

This was debunked for me only when someone took the time to - in a spirit of love and caring - SHOW me why it was wrong.

You CAN debunk it -- if you learn to speak the language - to meet them where THEY are, rather than to slam them as idiots (whatever you might think).

And -- I have been able to "show" two other people in the two years what's wrong with the theory.

Two people (or 3 counting me) does not a revolution make. I realize that.

I can't change the world -- but I WANT to do what I can do personally to change what I CAN change.

[tanyev]

3. The Rapture Exposed

by Barbara Rossing, a Lutheran theologian.

[mzmolly]

9. Sorry, cross posted with you.

:hi:

[revree]

5. SAVING THE BIBLE FROM FUNDAMENTALISTS...by

John Shelby Spong. I think that is the title, may be off by a word or so. Read it years ago. All his books are good.

[mzmolly]

7. The Rapture Exposed: The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation

This is supposed to be a good book, though I never subscribed to "end times" mentallity - I haven't read it, but I plan to sometime.



The author points out that the Book of Revelation, at the time it was written, is an example of apocalyptic literature which was popular with Jews and Christians. The meaning of apocalyptic is “unveiling.” The purpose of the Book of Revelation is not to give “God’s play-by-play script for the future,” but to unveil a new vision of life for people who were under the domination and oppression of the Roman Empire and to encourage them to be faithful to God alone. She writes, “Revelation’s proclamation of an impending ‘end’ referred not to the end of the world but to the end of Roman rule.” Moreover, The Book of Revelation is prophecy, which does not mean predicting the future, as dispensationalists maintain, but “timely warning.” The prophetic tradition of the Bible is to speak God’s word of warning of the consequences of injustice and encourage people to return to “God’s vision of justice and generosity for the world.” The author writes, “Biblical prophecy tells us not the specifics of what the future holds, but who holds the future. We can know the most important thing about us: God is the one who holds our future.”

The author proceeds to put the Book of Revelation in historical context as a message to the churches of Asia Minor who were suffering from the domination of the Roman Empire. She stresses that Revelation was written to counter the ideology of the empire which focused on military victory. The purpose of John in writing Revelation was to oppose Rome’s vision of victory with the vision of the victory of the Lamb of God. She writes, “The book of Revelation deals with the opposition between two kinds of power in our lives and in the world: the power of oppressive systems of domination verses the power of God’s Lamb to bring life and healing.” Lamb power manifests itself in “the power of nonviolent resistance and courage in opposition to injustice; it is the power of solidarity and forgiveness.”

She uses several chapters to compare the vision of John and the vision of dispensationalism and finds a radical contrast. The dispensationalist timetable postpones “any healing and renewal of the world until a distant time way off in the future,” in effect sanctifying the status quo. It also depicts Jesus as a “warrior-like lion” leading an army to establish a kingdom. She terms this vision “rapture in reverse.” In contrast, the vision of the Book of Revelation focuses on the establishment of a community of God, dwelling in the world, that is an “alternative to empire.”

At Epilogue is titled, “Debunking The Rapture by Verse.” If the reader has any doubts that dispensationalism is a “fabrication,” she exegetes I Thessalonians 4:13, Matthew 24:39-42 (See also Luke 17:34-35), Matthew 24-25, and John 14-1-2. These texts and many other biblical passages used by dispensationalists, are shown, in their historical context, to have nothing to do with the Rapture. She concludes, “Jesus will return - once. Until then, we are always with Jesus and he is with us - Emmanuel. Our life is held in God’s time. And we are called to live in wakefulness, to pray as the final verses of Revelation do. “Amen, come Lord Jesus.” It is salutary and timely to have a scholarly and lively critique of a dangerous misinterpretation of the Bible.

http://www.tcpc.org/resources/reviews/rapture_exposed.htm

[whistle]

11. There was a movie that came out about 12 or 13 years ago....

...with the title "The Rapture" starring Mimi Rogers. Does anyone remember that film? If so, what did you think of it? I found it somewhat disturbing at the time, but never really took it seriously. Now, I'm beginning to wonder.

There were other films around that period as well. One that I recall had Jim Balushi. It was titled something like Restless Palms, or Wild Palms, something like that. I think it was one of those made for TV movies, or mini series. Anyway it was about a not too distant future America where theology had taken over political power. Seems rather prophetic now.

One other film that I saw only once on cable TV, also about 8 to 10 years ago, which I watched in utter amazement. It was about a cult leader that I believe was Scientologist Ron L Hubbert, although it never gave that name. Again I missed the title and I have never seen of even heard of the film since I first saw it. It was rather surreal and I remember thinking, "Wow, how gullable people are to buy into that sort of thing". Yet here we are on the brink of mass cultism, with crowd in the White House pushing this very agenda. If anyone knows of this film, I'd like the title.

[Tesibria]

14. that was considered sacrilege by the Right

.. but there IS a series of movies out on the Fundamentalist's view of the Rapture.

See http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/feature/2002/09/03/christian/ for a "secular" review of these movies.

and .. see http://www.christiananswers.net/spotlight/movies/2000/leftbehind.html for a typical "christian" review of these movies.

[Tesibria]

15. Ahh -- HERE THEY ARE

... the ones we were shown as young kids (well, only 1 & 2 were out then ..) - each summer - to scare, literally, the hell out of us.


First in the 4-part series. Features the rapture and the cost of not accepting Jesus Christ. A story of Patty, a young woman caught up in living for the present with little concern for the future. As dramatic, earth shaking events begin to unfold around her, Patty realizes she is living in the end times spoken of in biblical prophecy.

Part two. Dramatically presents the Seal Judgments of Revelation, the importance of Christ's redemption, and the cost of discipleship during persecution. This second film in the series continues the story of Patty who is left living as a fugitive, relentlessly pursued and finally captured by the forces of UNITE, she is given a choice: either receive "the Mark" or face death.

Part three. The story continues into the Trumpet Judgments, featuring the victory of believing in Jesus and the effects of spiritual blindness. This third film in the series depicts the awesome story of the mid-years of the Great Tribulation foretold in biblical prophecy. The anti-Christ establishes a one-world government, while a small band of fugitives struggle to survive amid spectacular and terrifying judgements.

Part four of the 4 part series . The Bowl Judgments are poured out onto the earth. God's sovereignty can no longer be denied, and His divine protection covers His faithful remnant.

All this and more -- at http://www.christiancinema.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=53

[mzmolly]

23. Oh my LORD!

No pun intended. This shit is awful! My husband was subjected to that form of Religious abuse too. I still think he feels Bush is the anti-christ.

[whistle]

21. The one film that I recall was titled "Wild Palms" and here is a review:

<snip>

WILD PALMS
ABC 1993
First transmitted on ABC in 1993, Wild Palms was based on a comic strip that had appeared in Details magazine from 1990.


Starring James Belushi as patent attorney Harry Wyckoff, Wild Palms was a heady mix of soap, cyberspace and Twin Peaks style weirdness. When Harry is introduced to Senator Anton Kreutzer he finds himself drawn into a world where reality itself may only be an illusion and over the course of the five episodes his world gradually unravels around him as Kreutzer attempts to take over the world by addicting the masses to Mimosine (a drug that can make holograms appear solid) and implanting himself with the GO chip which he thinks will make himself immortal. Needless to say, it ends in tears with all but four of the central characters meeting their demise in some rather unpleasant ways - and while not actually involving a death, try watching Josie Ito's meeting with Tully Woiwode and not wincing as she gouges his eyes out!

With much of the pre-publicity focusing on the involvement of Oliver Stone as executive producer, expectations for the series were perhaps raised rather too much and ultimately Wild Palms only managed to baffle and confuse its audience, with ABC's sweeps-week screening proving to be a ratings disaster. Some major plot holes did little to help matters.

With its retro-clothing and sixties soundtrack it's aged remarkably well, with only the Terminator 2 era CGI work looking dated. Overall, it's well worth a second look if should appear on satellite or cable.


<link> http://www.action-tv.org.uk/guides/wildpalms.htm

[Tesibria]

22. uhm...

I realized that I jumped right over your question re: the Mimi Rogers movie. It WAS very disturbing - a sort of "new age" take on the basic theory. It was creepy enough to bother me for days.

I'd love to know what the Cable TV show re: Hubbard.


~Tesibria
-----------------------
www.democracyiscoming.com
www.cafepress.com/tesibria (T-shirts, etc. - "Proud Member of Moral Minority" - "Hitler had a mandate" - "WWJD - TURN OFF HATE RADIO!" - What would Jefferson Think - Count the Votes-Great Quotes-much more)

[whistle]

24. The Hubbard one I just do not recall the title of, but it was very....

...disturbing also. The Mimi Rogers movie kept me in bothered for days also. My point to these posts is that the signs have been around for awhile now and certain movie directors and producers have been making efforts to bring these movements to our attention. I have to admit that I kinda blew these films off as enterainment and dealing with people on the extreme fringe of society who would have little impact on the rational center of this country. Surprise, surprise! We got 53 million of these fantatics coming out and voting for Bush and 22% or only 11.7 million supposedly who used the code words "moral values" as their most pressing issue for casting their vote. Now the president is calling that a mandate to impose his interpretation of exactly what "moral values" are based on only 5% of the elegible voter adults in this country, without ever having a debate, or open discussings as to just what that would mean to society as a whole. Most disturbing.

[whistle]

16. Somewhere I read that true Christian believers are required to take...

...an oath to signify their committment to the moral values. I found thi site which outlines this committment very clearly:

<snip>


The Alliance is committed to the preservation and proclamation of Biblical truth. Yet our members come from a variety of denominational backgrounds and hold to various views on the non essentials. However, we have chosen the Nicene Creed to reflect our fundamental agreement in matters of faith, The Chicago Statement on the Inerrancy of Scripture as our common view of Scripture, and the Christian Manifesto as a foundational philosophical framework for our present mission. We also affirm the 25 Articles on the Kingdom of God and the Essentials of a Christian World View produced by the Coalition on Revival (COR).

<link to read more> http://www.repent.org/

[GreenPartyVoter]

17. Have lots of books you can check out, about the Rapture

and other things.

-------------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

[Hobarticus]

19. The Rapture was invented by man...

Another brick in the wall of fear that organized religion had to build to corral the masses.