Just a lifelong Texas Democrat's thoughts on "converting" fundies

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

I've read a lot over the past week about how we need to reach out to fundamentalists and evangelicals and re-frame things and convince them ours is the way.

I've grown up around these people. I live next door to them, my kid goes to school with their kids, I've gone to church with them (back when I attended), I work with them, I'm related by marriage to some of them.

I've talked to them and LISTENED to them for four years now, actively talking about social and political issues. I've been respectful, I've not ever raised my voice in these discussions, I totally respect their point of view and the fact that they feel deeply about these issues. When they asked for information, I readily gave it. I created charts comparing Kerry and bush's views and positions on different issues, using each candidate's web site, so as to be fair. They pretty much dismissed them. I've talked myself blue in the face. I've exercised more patience than I ever thought I had. I've bitten my tongue so much, I'm surprised I still have one.

Guess how many I won over? Not a single one.

And it's not for a lack of persuasion. I've been told I could sell a ketchup popsicle to an Eskimo. I feel passionately and deeply about the values and ideals of the Democratic party. I am at my very core an American, believing in all the precious freedoms we have. I am also a Christian who believes a lot of other Christians have forgotten (or maybe never knew?) what Christianity is really supposed to be about. I don't say that last thing to them, I just listen and talk.

It didn't do a damn bit of good. Not a damn bit. Now I may have softened up one or two here or there on a few issues. I know I did have one of them convinced that gays need equal rights, but months later, I have come to find out her husband and her church have talked her right back into her previous, hateful position. Convinced her I am just crazy and going to hell and a "gay lover." She is also convinced my daughter isn't going to turn out well because her parents think gays should have "special rights" (that one drives me crazy--there's nothing special about equal rights).

I tried to focus on economic issues, I broke it down in simple terms, they didn't want to hear it. Some changed the subject, some laughed and claimed not to understand "money stuff." I talked about health care, I gave concrete examples of how our current state of things hurts us. How it actually costs the taxpayers MORE when we kick kids off programs such as CHIPS, health insurance for low-income working parents (Texas, under the republicans, has kicked a quarter of a million kids off that very good, very cost effective plan).

It DIDN'T. MATTER.

Now I'm not trying to discourage anyone. If this election has given you renewed energy to go out there and start talking to fundies, don't let me stop you. Have at it. Attend their churches if you want, go to their houses for dinner. Please remember they are trying to convert you, too. So it's a tug of war no one seems to win.

I never was the first to bring up gay marriage, or abortion or guns or school prayer, by the way. THEY WERE. Usually the fundie guys brought up those subjects, really belligerently, and looked at me like I was trying to eat their first born child. So, I'd gather up my energy and talk about THOSE issues if they wanted to talk about them. But I could see it was a huge wasted effort. Their eyes glazed over as soon as I started to speak. My husband told me more than once "damn, they have to be hard core not to be persuaded by you. You could talk paint into coming off the wall."

To no avail. So I hope the Democratic party will excuse me if I bow out of this effort to reach out to the fundies. Been there, done that. It exhausted me beyond description and accomplished exactly nothing. Please those in bluer areas (I understand it isn't kosher to say blue states or red states anymore), please know your blue brethren in the redder areas...many of us worked our asses off. If anyone can talk to these people, we can. I don't "look" liberal (whatever that means), I fit right in. They consider me one of them, just the resident weirdo liberal. They used to like to think of me as the entertainment (one of them confessed that to me just before the election--that parties would have been boring without "messin with the kook!"). No more.

Sorry.

[Dora]

1. Hear, hear! I couldn't agree with you more.

So well said. Thank you for taking the time to put that together.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

2. They will have to face their positions...

Each in their own way, when they find that their idea of paradise is no paradise at all.

[Emily Jane]

3. And her I am...

...in an E-mail tug of war with my cousin.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

4. When people are brainwashed, there's not a lot you can do with them

without re-brainwashing them to your point of view by force. Their whole life is built around their church, and if they lose that, they lose all their friends. It's too scary to think that their conditioning may be wrong, because the consequences are likely to be severe.

The only other hope is that they will run into the contradictions themselves and find their brainwashing unsustainable. But it's only a minority who can do that.

The mainstream evangelicals are an easier sell.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

14. Guess what?

These people ARE mainstream evangelicals. They are not hard core fundies. They go to a METHODIST church.

That's what's truly scary. I've talked to seriously hard core fundies too and they just scared me and had me almost dialing 911 on my cell phone. Screaming about how angry they are that the law doesn't allow people to bring guns into schools or churches and how it would be more "merciful" to shoot gay people in the head than let them live.

Yeah. I didn't eat dinner at THOSE people's houses, sorry they scare me badly.

[yellowdogintexas]

59. First Methodist Bedford?

A very out side the box congregation, so I am told. I have heard they are almost Holy Rollers up there

First Methodist Fort Worth on the other hand is a (mostly) liberal congregation. Methodism, like the Democratic Party is a great big umbrella, and all kinds of folks stand under it from time to time.

[villager]

5. they're brainwashed members of a cult...

It will take more than "reason" to get to them and open their eyes...

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

9. Exactly what I'm saying, thank you.

When I laid out some especially compelling points, I could tell I was creating a very painful case of cognitive dissonance in some of them because they would look sort of pained, then get LOUDER and more obnoxious and I knew I had to stop that particular talking session for that day.

It's truly like they are brainwashed and in a cult. I mean how in the world do you break through that?

[villager]

19. had an email exchange with a Fundie..

...who came close to listening, then, when I'd carefully respond to her, point-by-point, just received a dismissive response couched as empathy -- i.e., I had a hardened heart, or some damn thing.

But, of course, no factual responses to any of the points about her beloved Saints -- Reagan and Little Bush, in this case -- that I'd brought up.

Of course, she quite seriously believes there's a direct pipeline between God and the Little Pretender...

[girl gone mad]

51. They would have to be deprogrammed..

the same way people deprogram family members who have joined a cult.

That would be almost impossible considering their cult has mainstream acceptance.

I also think they have a cultish devotion to the Republican party. It's like extremem brand loyalty.

Our only hope is to target the younger generations, who aren't as indoctrinated.

[rockydem]

6. Have you ever pointed out that the aren't true fundamentalists?

They cherry pick what they want out of the Bible, both the good and the bad. They ignore most of what Jesus taught. And more interesting, they ignore some of the more unsavory teachings of the old testament relating to stoning misguided children and having slaves, just to name a few.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

10. I actually have pointed that out

many times. I pointed out that you could sell your daughters into slavery, stoning was an acceptable form of punishment, etc.

They blow it all off. I am not their preacher, so what I say can be discounted.

[rockydem]

16. You can point to it right in the Bible

Alas, though, they probably are just blind morons who ignore facts - that's the only way right-wing fascism can survive.

[HarrietBrown]

7. I was a meeting last night where I suggested talking one-on-one

with people to effect change, and one guy made your point--which is correct--that these people won't change. Talking to fundamentalists/ evangelicals with the intent to change them is not totally useless, but pretty close. However, we should continue to work on the other Bush voters--people for whom God didn't enter into the elections at all--people who were afraid, or thought Bush helped them economically, or supported the war, or were just plain uninformed. There may be something to touch in them--and there are a lot of them out there. ie, I know that I will never reach my born-again dad, but my sister who is conservative, but not religious, is educable. Good post. Thanks for putting it up there.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

Exactly

now THOSE people CAN be reached. They just need to hear it all laid out, what we stand for, what we believe, what we want to do as a party. They need to hear the advantages for everyone of what we believe in.

They can be converted. People who base their vote on fundamentalist religious beliefs? Not so much.

[OrwellwasRight]

44. The problem with the non-fundies

is that, if they are hard-core "fiscal conservatives," we won't get hem either although we should.

Bush & Co are not fiscally conservative in many ways (creating the largest budget deficit in history, expanding the national debt in record time, etc.), but they are closer to it than progressive Dems are.

Things like a living wage, universal healthcare, and real workforce training are "leftist social programs" that Milton Friedman-spouting laissez-faire types will just never accept. such ideas scare the hell out of them--that's why they live in gated communities and stay off public transportation. They don't want to see the effects of their social policies.

Such an outlook, while supposedly based on the "science" of economics, is really based on a fundamental selfishness, and unwillingness to admit that no success is individual, and a desire to lock others out of oppotunities by which to live a comfortable life because the success of another might mean less for them.

It's just possible that these people are even more unreachable because they truly have hard hearts and just don't care. At least the religious fanatics want to have a good heart, they just don't know how to do it.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

48. Can't disagree with anything you wrote

I know the types you describe.....the "screw you I got mine" philosophy which is extremely selfish and cruel.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

8. Oh, the last sentence is a kicker, isn't it?

Dear Madam,
First kudos to you for your patience and bravery in dealing with those people. Second, it is my personal experience that you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Folks, let me let you in on something: these people want to believe these things. They do. Whether it's to feel superior to others, or whether hate brings excitement to boring, repressed lives or whether they get off on the power of controlling others, THEY ACTUALLY LIKE TO BE THIS WAY. It gives them meaning and purpouse and something to be proud about. My mother says that some people are like mules: they only learn through negative reinforcement and pain. Most Fundies will continue like this until one of their kids gets senselessly blown to bits in Iraq or some other war we are lied into or until their veteran's benefits are denied or until they are eating cat food three times a day because some Wall Street asswipe conned them out of their retirement and there's no Social Security anymore. (they called Pat Robertson for a little help, but he was busy golfing; though, the tape asked them to contribute, blah, blah, blah). Don't waste your breath on them. They'll only learn through blows to the head-which Bushco is about to provide in abundance.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

18. Actually I think

even in the situations you outlined a lot of them wouldn't give up their hateful, destructive beliefs. They are BLIND. And they will NOT see.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

20. Nice Bible quote

Always liked that one. :-)

[sandnsea]

33. meaning and purpose

"It gives them meaning and purpose and something to be proud about."

Yep, the poor ones don't believe their lives will ever be any better and all they've got is their "moral values". And they certainly don't want to alienate the wealthier ones because they're dependent on them. The wealthier ones need a reason to ignore the poor ones; which is either they didn't work hard enough, didn't tithe, didn't please God in some way or other. These are the same people who created the same religious reasons to support slavery, we shouldn't forget that. Don't know how you ever get them to change.

[MissMarple]

52. I think you are right, and they exploit religion to rationalize it.

I also think it more a cultural issue than a religious one. Not all evangelicals are so prejudiced, judgemental, and mean of spirit.

[LisaLynne]

11. I was raised as a Fundamentalist ...

and I no longer am. What is the difference between me and those who never break free? I don't know. I went to college with a woman who, despite getting a good education, still is. I have a lot of other friends from "back in the day" who left when they fell in love with a non-Fundie, people who just got tired of it ... a lot of different reasons. And then there are those who stick with it to the bitter end, despite the fact that the Rapture/Armageddon never comes. I don't know what the deciding factor is.

But, I agree -- I don't think anybody can change them or reason with them if they are really into it. Getting information to those who might be questioning might do some good, but that's about it. The questions, I think, already have to be within them.

[jobycom]

The deciding factor is courage

Some people have the courage to trust their own hearts, others are afraid to step out on their own, preferring to have their ideals and morality poured into them by someone else. Leaders, versus followers.

It's why Fundies support the Republicans. They need leaders to tell them what to do, or they are lost. Democrats like to think for themselves, and have learned to not trust leaders, even our own.

Our way makes for better people but a screwed up political party.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

31. LOL, I agree!

[fertilizeonarbusto]

32. YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My friends, the leading reason Fundies are Fundies is fear of death. They are "Christians" (please note quotation marks) because they are promised eternal life. My take on that (if you are a believer, stop reading now, I don't want to offend sincere people) is that it's mighty ungrateful of us to want more after all that God has given us. Life as it is is a wonderful thing. Who are we to ask God for more, like we are saying "you have not given me enough."? Why not be grateful to God for our fortune and bounty and worry about being good enough for His goodness in this world instead? Oh, that's right: that takes effort and constant kindness and that is (drumroll, please) "HARD WORK" (could not resist). And, why should we fear death? God created it along with everything else. Is fear of death saying that deep down we do not trust God? Anyway, off my pulpit now. Thanks for you indulgence.
One more thing: I love you DU'ers. Thank you for making me feel less alone in the U.S. of Rove.

[PhuLoi]

12. Trying to enlighten a fundie is like trying to teach a pig to sing,

its a waste of your time and it annoys the pig.

[fshrink]

13. (((I'm with you sister Cpt.)))

[jobycom]

15. I prefer the slash and burn approach

I call them idiots, and use my best rhetoric to scorch their illiterate ramblings into the earth, them smirk as they wither under my attack.

Has the same effect. Haven't converted one, yet. It's a tribute to my charm that I even get invited back.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

27. And you probably weren't as stressed out as I was

because you could just let loose. And we still netted the same amount: none.

That's the tact I am taking now. No more holding my tongue, no more nodding my head and smiling and listening patiently. All they seem to like is Bill O'Reilly style "SHUT UP!" anyway.

Actually I don't talk to * voting friends anymore, so so much for that.

[girl gone mad]

54. Ridicule is an effective tool.

People don't like to be made fun of.

I've bit my tongue around fundamentalists so many times, just out of fear of confrontation. Never again.

[Bridget Burke]

17. Yeah, the hard core Fundies are pretty---hard core.

But I think there some "fellow travellers." People who are religious & conservative but may not buy the whole package; they just went along for this election. (Or maybe they didn't; we've got electronic voting here, too--Houston, that is.)

Jerry Falwell has been crowing about how their time has come. The Christian Reconstrucitionists are even scarier than he is. Let's hope these extremists get lots of press so the more reasonable types realize exactly who they're in bed with. Add in what the next 4 years might bring us, here & abroad, & some minds could still change.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

22. Exactly

I say burn, baby, burn. Go whole hog on that fundie stuff so that the "fellow travelers" will become more and more alarmed by it and get the hell out of that.

And that will definitely happen. The people who ARE open to other points of view will listen and can be talked to. But those who based their vote on "moral" issues of gays, guns, abortion, God, oh I'm a Christian and I'm SO victimized my son can't even pray in school (not true, yes he can)? Those people? No.

[MazeRat7]

21. My experiences here in Texas are exactly the same....

There just is no point in trying to change this perspective. I will add, these "attitudes" or "perspectives" are instilled from birth. They are a much a product of the culture down here as the education.

I believe you would have more luck teaching a bird not to fly.

MZr7

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

25. Yep.

[seabeyond]

23. i was much more mean. i yelled screamed ranted and raved

could preach with this best of em. did it in chapel, in christian school parking lot and oh oh oh and the country club of repug elitists...........yup

i got one.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

24. Well hey

maybe I should have yelled more, as you got one more than I did! LOL!

[seabeyond]

29. but moonbean, be they family or friends that i love

thye all heard me. and now i sit back, and let them see how right i am. and it isnt going to take long. already they dont dare say a single thing about their vote or bush. and when i do decide to challenge them, on challenging my value and my christianity, they are not going to have a leg to stand on

they heard us. and they are going to be sittin, with my voice in their head, and when bush cries out he has a mandate, their skin is going to chill a bit, and when he says gays are illegal, they are going to figget uncomfortably, and that is just the beginning. this is going to be a huge lesson for them, from me to them. wink

[AtlantaBob]

26. http://www.fundamentalists-anonymous.org/

http://www.fundamentalists-anonymous.org/

Send them this!

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

30. I'm done with them.

I wasted a lot of time on them. The only good part was I really honed my persuasive skills and I know ALL their "arguments" (they really aren't much of arguments....more like diversionary tactics, ill-timed attempts at humor, complete ignorance of facts, and yelling when nothing else worked...).

[gnofg]

28. Live in Ga.

I live in GA. and I used to sell cash registers to rural GA. I have sold in many small towns and was very successful. I never lost a deal in the small towns. I agree. you are not going to convert them. They are good people but forget about changing their minds. Go west young man and try to convert the fiscally conservative, socially liberal people of the rocky mountains and the southwest. You have a far greater chance for success.

[Sin]

34. Yep

The fundies vile there hate in there religion and faith.
theres different lvs of that ranging from the extreme to mildly bigoted. The priests and what not seem to have maybe an inkling more understanding but thats about 35% to 40% of them the people that preach to form there own ideas on it that tend to be a little more right wing then that of the priest.
( for instance a secular high school religious teacher that i had actually told a Protestant kid in the class one day he won't be going to the same heaven as the rest of the RC's there because there religion was false and went on a rant about how RC's go to the highest lv of heaven because there the most right and how all other religions would be below them in the lvs of heaven.)
that was one of the thousands of many cute story's Ive seen when i went thought school.

When they wrap this sort of hate into there religion that they believe is mandated by there faith in order to protect there way of life or form of thinking. It's like trying to convert rocks to sand
by just talking to them you can show them facts you can give them instances from there own bible and they will pick and choose there faith along with any hate they want to throw in. If you get frustrated and argue that there faith doesn't teach that then your attacking there faith. Basically its like your trying to disprove god in there minds and convert them into Sin and heathenism.

Now that this Form of thinking has a hold on a good portion of the faithful and its roots in the neo right wing.We are in for one hell of a fight for our ideas and way of living. They wont stop to they have saved all of us from our selves in there minds.

[Sc1z4r]

36. For the life of me,

I don't understand how we're supposed to "rationalize" with people that not only think we're going to hell, but that believe in the least rational of ideas - an invisible big guy in the sky who, in between sending gays to hell and igniting crusades killing millions, loves us all - but if we don't love him back, we're all going to die.

You know why they won't budge?

Their faith is based off of two reasonings:

1)If you don't think this, you're going to burn in hell after you die (Fear).
2)If your opinion is disproved by science or whatever, it doesn't mean you're wrong. You're still right. God works in mysterious ways, and we just don't know the real meaning.

It instills an impermeable wall in their minds from childhood. Guys, the truth is, they don't give half a sh!t about American politics. They don't care if something's against the Constitution. It does not matter to them one bit. Because the Bible takes precedence. Despite the separation of church and state, if there ever is a proposed national religion of Christianity, they'll go for it. Nevermind how unconstitutional it is.

They create a viewpoint that can't be defeated. Not because they're right, but because if you prove them wrong, they'll still think they were right somehow and God will reveal it one day, and we'll all burn in hell for it.

I'm supposed to rationalize with these idiots? To hell with that.

[Malva Zebrina]

35. Probably not worth your energy

something has to change in our society--some big humbling event in order for these people to begin to question their faith and it's tenets.

Right now they have been enabled by George Bush and feel quite smug and satisfied that their Christian cult is gaining power and will reach the goal which is to have the United States of America declared a Christian Nation, wich is their firm belief in spite of history. They do not know the history and seem to be not capable of knowing the history.

I have been conversing with literalist fundamentalists for years as an atheist, and I can tell you they all have the talking points down pat and nothing, absolutely no reason or logical argument will penetrate their thick skulls. There is nothing that will pursuade them that their faith is catapulting down the wrong path and toward the state ruling over their religion. They cannot see that by advocating a state religion they are surrendering their autonomy over their freedom to practice their religion as they like. Does not sink in, so strong is their greed to control a whole country with their religion.

the only thing left to do,imo, is to confront them individually whenever you meet up with one--on the street, or even in law suits when they try to run roughshod over you or anyone.

If I am handed a Christian religious tract on the street, I simply hand it back and say that I am not interested because I am an atheist. That always brings a shocked look in their face, but I persist and hand the tract back to them. In my library in a small town in New England where street preacher/ ministers are not looked upon favorably, even by believers, I have often found religious tracts inserted in books. I complained to the librarry and listed the books in which I found these tracts.

People do have the right to practice their religion as they see it but, they do not have a right to invade another's space, because it does not belong to them.

[ewagner]

37. My whole family

went fundie on me.

I've been trying to figure it out for about 10 years.

Before they quit talking to me (about 5 years ago) I was able to discern this.

The congregation of the faithful gave them a sense of community.

It gave them both a warning and a promise. The warning was that their life was bad because they weren't religous enough and if things got worse it was because their faith was weak. The promise was that if they believed enough their life would get better.

There was a big element of martyrdom involved. Christians were being persecuted by the agents of Satan...which came to include me.

It's more addictive than alcoholism.

[Sc1z4r]

38. Whoop whoop

Christianity and religion in general has been breaking up families for years. You're either a Christian or you're working for Satan.

So... if I get a Bible-beater yelling at me, do I get worker's comp?

[OrwellwasRight]

45. Anyone welcome you to DU yet?

Welcome.

:pals:

[Hell Hath No Fury]

39. Amen!

I wanted to tear my hair out at all those "reach out/compromise" threads.

How the heck do you reach out to a person who has, for all intense purposes, shut down their brain???

How do you compromise with a person who feels they have the right to act as your primary care provider and deny you medication because it is against THEIR "religion"?

They are brainwashed and utterly entrenched in their positions. It is that simple. And until they decide to open their minds and change, you can talk until you are blue in the face and nothing will change.

I too have spent a great deal of time around these folks. My own sister went religiously insane at one point in her life and it was as if I was living in "Invasion of the Body Snatchers"! She looked like my sister, sounded like my sister, but the person I had grown up with was nowhere to be found. It was one of the more scary episodes of my life.

And Moonbeam, don't you just know that there was great personal satisfaction in those you spoke to that they had "resisted" you and any temptation to turn away from "Jesus".

They are black and white people who need a black and white religion for them to make sense of a chaotic world. They lay everything at "Jesus's" feet, there is no need to think or question. And GW is the perfect black and white leader for them, at whose feet they can lay everything, of whom there is no need to think or question.

[Sc1z4r]

40. I Was There

In my later high school days, I, myself, turned into the whole Jesus freak thing. I know it firsthand.

It's fear, bigotry, and a lack of rational thought that drives them. If any of them come to me and talk, I'll go with it. As far as reaching out, going to churches, etc - forget it.

I reached out and changed by my decision. The rational ones can to.

Really, you'll get a lot of people who once they start to agree with you, will sense the fear of hell or something, and go hardcore back into fundamentalism.

Karl Rove knows what preachers do. You control fear, you control people.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

46. In fact you reminded me of something

one woman told me that she bragged to her minister that she was "really strong" and resisted what I was saying. Her minister congratulated her. That's when I crossed her off my "friends" list and stopped talking to her.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

57. Now how did I know that?

;)

They harder you push at them, the more gratification they get in the strength of their "faith".

I was raised RC, so I'm a product of the whole "sexual temptation" thing. ("I am a child of Mary, away from me, you horny twerp!)

[midnight armadillo]

41. Regarding arguments...

I have a degree in philosophy. I recall when I first read Plato how thrilling it was to read how Socrates would demolish his opponents in argument. I studied symbolic logic with gusto - to the point where I could pick apart logical arguments for flaws while the other person was talking.

This taught me two things. One, that really applying logic makes one somewhat irritating at parties and is not good for meeting women.

Two, argument only works if the other person is willing to play along. There is no point in persuasive, logical argument if there is no chance for the other person to BE persuaded. In fact, this is so often the case that Socratic techniques are pretty much useless outside the courtroom, where logical argument (should) rule the day.

After reading your story and other people's responses, I'm not surprised. I've argued with fundies in the past on various things (I knew one, an electricial engineer, who considered all of modern physics to be completely bogus. Oh, the irony) and it's always been pointless.

Somehow, we have to find the ones open to change!

[OrwellwasRight]

50. Armadillo, some women

are completely turned on by a good, logical argument and a mastery of philosophy...

But others are turned on by the character of Joey on friends so what do I know?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

42. I am with you on this one.

My personal experience is that they find us to be ungodly souls that need saving. I have tried reason, logic and using their own words against them.

For all the years I have tried, I know of one, my Father, who finally heard me. It took me 18 years.

I agree that they feel victimized by a separation of church and state. I impress the concept of freedom of religion only to hear that all other religions are going to hell. That includes many other Christian faiths in their eyes. They will not change their views no matter how flawed they are.

I have had some success in deprogramming the youth. They are slightly more willing to question and teens on a whole do not approve of their parents.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

49. Yes

young-uns are WAY easier. The problem is, did what you say stick or are they just going to go back to how their parents believe for the sake of getting along?

:shrug:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

58. One can only hope the seed of doubt was planted deep

I took several 18 year olds to the polls this year myself. I will be able to follow up with only some of them in 2006.

[Jackpine Radical]

43. I think the problem is that you're using the wrong means.

You're attempting to attack a psychologically charged, essentially irrational belief structure by rational means.

When I say "irrational belief structure" I'm not commenting on the validity of the beliefs, but upon the psychological context in which they are held. These beliefs fornm part of a value system, and are a large part of the individuals' world-views. If they were to give up these beliefs, it would be very threatening to them, and in particular it would threaten their need for certainty. Therefore they will (unconsciously) marshall all their psychological defenses against you: denial, minimization, repression, etc.--and if all else fails, they may kill you to shut you up.

That is the way authoritarian personality systems work. Check out Michael Milburn's Politics of Denial for a fascinating and up-to-date discussion of this phenomenon.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

47. Oh I agree

and I also realized if I demolished their "world view" it would create a vaccuum of sorts in them....and that is a very psychologically painful thing for humans, especially of the authoritarian personality type.

Yep. You just reinforced my argument. It is important for Dems to spend their time and energy efficiently and get good at determining who is open to what we have to say and who is most definitely NOT and won't be anytime soon, if at all.

[OrwellwasRight]

53. Is there a way to bring them over politically without destroyng their

world view?

Far be it from me to steal their faith. I mean, I wish I could have some. It might actually be comforting to know that there was somebody in the sky looking out for me who gave a rat's rickshaw.

I'm not disputing your point. I have had similar experiences to those you describe. I'm just wondering if there is another way to go about it. I mean, religious folks were the key to leftist populism and 20s progressivism.

And we don't even need a lot them. Maybe 2%.

[Jackpine Radical]

60. That's a very itneresting question, and one to which

I've been giving a lot of thought lately.

First, not all evangelicals are authoritarian. Many just have that belief system, and are no more irrational about it than, say, some people raised in a more "scientific" tradition. The issue is about how the beliefs are held, not what the beliefs are. Therefore a lot of people change fairly readily when exposed to a different set of ideas. I remember when I started college a lot of farm kids got their first exposure to the intellectual world of critical thought, philosophy, etc. Many of them started examining their worldviews and made profound changes in their belief systems very readily. Others really dug in their heels and became progressively more alienated frfom the mainstream. They often sought out majors that would not challenge their belief systems and settled into living lives of denial. This was in the early 60's at a time when fundamentalism seemed like a dying cultural oddity, with only a few irrelevant snake-handlers still clinging to a tenuous existence. There was no Campus Crusade stuff, and if there were fundies around, they mostly weren't admitting to it. The mainline churches were either liberal or inhabited by a few crotchety blue-haired ladies. Times have certainly changed, huh?

Anyway, I do think there are ways to change even authoritarian fundies, but it's very difficult. And when you're done, often what you get is an authoritarian personality with a new belief system that they cling to as rigidly as they did the old one. This may have some short-term political payoffs, but as a psychologist it's not what I would like to see as the end result of a conversion effort.

[AspenRose]

55. You are soooooooooo right, girlfriend

I don't even bother talking politics to my 'friends' who still live in the Bryan/College Station area (*sur-PRISE, sur-PRISE*). When they start talking about "ragheads" I know whatever time I spend on them is useless.

I just have to limit the amount of time I communicate with them.

It's sad that it has come to that, but it's not sad that I have to avoid them like the plague....they just drive me crazy.

[David Zephyr]

56. "There are none so blind as those who WILL not see"...Jesus

You are wasting your time.