Is it a waste of time to try to 'REACH' the born again bush voter?

[mopaul]

CAN they be gotten through to? is it worth the time and energy?
or is it a lost cause?

feel free to offer suggestions, as i'm flat out of ideas, and a lousy example myself. i don't know of a diplomatic and effective way of explaining jesus 101 to them, or just what a jerk bush is, and just how they've been royally duped by him.

[Hello_Kitty]

1. Liberal Christians are trying to get through

Whether they do or not remains to be seen.

[poppet]

71. interesting petition from Christians regarding the use of violence

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=action.election&item=confession_signers


. . . Nevertheless, a time comes when silence is betrayal. How many churches have heard sermons on these texts since the terrorist atrocities of September 11? Where is the serious debate about what it means to confess Christ in a world of violence? Does Christian "realism" mean resigning ourselves to an endless future of "pre-emptive wars"? Does it mean turning a blind eye to torture and massive civilian casualties? Does it mean acting out of fear and resentment rather than intelligence and restraint?

Faithfully confessing Christ is the church's task, and never more so than when its confession is co-opted by militarism and nationalism.

- A "theology of war," emanating from the highest circles of American government, is seeping into our churches as well.

- The language of "righteous empire" is employed with growing frequency.
. . . .

[Left Is Write]

74. Seems unlikely.

Many of us Liberal Christians are referred to as "so-called Christians" or "people who claim to be Christians" by the fundie born-agains. They don't think we're real Christians anyway, so our heretical views don't count.

[tk2kewl]

2. Catholics Yes / born-again No

nt

[alcuno]

56. I'm not opposed to starting a Holy War in this country.

Peel the Catholics away from the right-wing fundamentalists. Just tell them what the Falwell/Robertson/Jones crowd REALLY think of their faith.

[jeff30997]

3. Well...

Born again bush voter can go to hell.:evilgrin:

[Vincardog]

4. They are too wed to the death cult of G.W. Custer

[charlyvi]

5. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing....

over and over then expecting a different result. We've tried, they don't respond. Case closed.

[T Roosevelt]

6. I've found they are so caught up in their worldview

that anything from the outside is simply discarded and ignored. Logic means nothing to them, and using the Bible to convince them only makes them use the Bible to prove they are right - and the Bible has so much that is contradictory that it supports virtually any position they take.

[Ladyhawk]

22. Yeah, this is a problem.

The bible is contradictory. That's what made me disregard it completely.

[DoYouEverWonder]

35. The New Testament didn't exist until christianity

became a state religion. That is when most of the good parts got thrown out. All that stuff about women being equal just wasn't going to fly with the repressive Pauline christians. That is why it is so contradictory.

Fortunately, a treasure trove of the original writings by the early christians was found at a place called the Nag Hammadi library. These documents are much closer to the real teachings of Jesus, mainly because they haven't been edited for content and they've only been translated once or twice.

[sangh0]

7. Simple-minded question

The point isn't to convert the TheoCons. It's to appeal to those who aren't TheoCons but are being fooled by the TheoCon's propoganda

[Pirate Smile]

8. "Born Agains" are not all Christians by a long shot. I'm Catholic and

I still don't really get the whole born again stuff.

There are many Protestant denominations, along with Catholics, that are extremely reachable. Many of them are already with us.

The RW Christian Coalition, evangelical, born again crowd - I don't think we should waste our time.

[Sleepysage]

9. For most of the hard-core fundies, yes.

If they won't vote in their financial interest, it seems that the cultural issues are just too powerful for them. People don't budge on that stuff.

Also, I think there is a significant portion of Bush voters who have lofted the man to the status of a quasi-deity. It's a cult of personality, now for many, and you can't fight that.

[mopaul]

12. oddly enough, my bornagain democrat parents HATE bush

[Pirate Smile]

24. Are they a minority in their church? More info Mopaul. Educate us.

[mopaul]

29. apparently

my dad got into it with the preacher suggesting they all vote for the more godly candidate, meaning bush. the preacher was unmoved.

[Fenris]

10. Waste of time.

It's not just that they're "born again" Christians. It's that they're the remnant of the Old South aristocracy system. 75% of whites during the Antebellum did not own slaves - these were mostly poor planters. The plantation owners - the CEOs of their day - controlled all the wealth. The Southern Churches and people like John C. Calhoun, the "Marx of the Master Class", reinforced in the minds of the poor that the system was good and worth preserving, while people like Hinton Rowan Helper argued that slavery and the aristocracy system kept down the majority of Southern whites. The slave system might be gone, but the belief in aristocracy and the inability of government to provide for its citizens, as well as general conservative ideals implanted from the church, remain fully intact.

[Ladyhawk]

23. This is also a good point.

My family is from the South.

[Hubert Flottz]

11. How do you tell someone who knows it all anything?

?

[doni_georgia]

13. They won't listen to we liberal Christians, because they don't believe

we ARE Christians to begin with. They think we are in error and that we are worse than those who do not believe at all. I debated with fundies for years and finally gave up. You cannot debate with someone who believes they are right and the rest of the world is wrong and going to hell. You cannot use logic to persuade people who don't respond to reason. All we can do is get out there and LIVE our beliefs and perhaps show the average NORMAL person the difference between us and them.

[blondeatlast]

19. They are cultlike in their beliefs. I never trust anyone who says

they are Christian yet has never doubted their beliefs.

And they don't; they are almost like robots.

[doni_georgia]

37. Exactly -

I had a minister one time say that if you have never questioned your beliefs, then your beliefs aren't very strong. Most of the fundamentalists I know say they got saved when they were kids. No they didn't. They accepted what their parents told them. They were raised and trained to not question authority. They don't know how to think for themselves. They are anti-thinking in fact. Thinking is wrong. Thinking is bad.

[Sputnik]

70. My minister

(Southern Baptist) that I had many years ago, told me, "Doubting is often the beginning of faith." He was a kind and intelligent man and I missed him when he moved out of state. He had a doctorate in theology and is the son of a Southern Baptist minister as well.

Sadly, your experience seems to be the most common.

[Ladyhawk]

47. Yeah, I've wondered about that.

They think you are heretics. I guess I still hope for a way to reach them, even though I know it's mostly a waste of time.

Why did I change? WHY?

I can tell you, but maybe I would miss something. :(

[alcuno]

55. Their world is strictly black and white.

No room for compromise because their faith leads them to believe that they are right and everyone else is wrong. It's a level of arrogance and intolerance that is without parallel.

[democratreformed]

14. They live and breath by the Bible. I have already been collecting

Bible verses that support our views. I am not ready to say we can't reach them. We just have to do it on their terms, I believe.

Here's some of what I've collected:

Phillipians 2:3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourself.

1st Timothy 2:17 Comman those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.

Romans 12:16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.

I have several on riches and poverty and helping your fellow man. Also several about not causing trouble, not being angry, etc.

[JudyM]

68. There ought to be a website that lists all these and more. As a resource.

[muse]

76. sojo.net does a good job with this

They are a Christian organization committed to social justic issues. I'm a Christian and they speak my language about ministering to the poor, health care issues, peace, etc.

I think there are many Christian leaders who are willing and able to help the democratic party regain their footing among people of faith.

[izzie]

15. Someone in my family had their family fall apart because of it.

Every thing just gone. It is still hitting us.

[movonne]

16. I wish they would all rapture and leave us alone..then we all

could be happy!

[blondeatlast]

17. It's like deprogramming a cultist. They are so rooted in dogma,

have NO exposure to the real world, and prefer/are told to? keep to their own.

There is one in my office; desperately in need of health insurance. I told her Kerry's plan was workable and could get her the care she needs, and her response was that he's a "tax and spend liberal who doesn't mind killing babies."

I wish I could get through, but I'm flummoxed.

[Zorra]

18. There is a huge difference between Bu$h voters and Christians.

They are actually on opposite ends of the "moral spectrum".

Bu$h is a greedy, lying, bloodthirsty, evil meglomaniac. He is the champion of the christo-fascist RW, a perfect representative of their moral values.

A Christian would never vote for someone like Bu$h, that lied a nation into the war in Iraq and is responsible for the deaths of over a hundred thousand innocent people.

Bu$h voters obviously like it when their government sanctions the killing innocent people.

Bu$h supporters are ethically and morally deficient, and psychologically very, very sick.

[oldlady]

20. my secret fantasy...

is that Bush gets an epiphany and a flame appears over his head or something and he changes his ways. just imagine the drama *LOL*

hey, hope springs eternal

[Ladyhawk]

21. Speaking as an ex-fundy turned atheist,

I believe that only liberal Christians have a snowball's chance in hell of reaching the right-wing Christian contingent. It will take a lot of work, regardless, and most won't be persuaded.

The best chance of deprogramming lies with the Christian Left. They should:

1. Start their own programming: radio at first, then "televangelism."
2. Engage the right-wing fundamentalists gently and persuasively as often as possible.
3. Be ubiquitous on the Internet. Start sending out left-leaning e-mails to those that sign up.

I can't think of any more. All I know is it's a waste of time for me to deal with these people. I don't even want to look at them right now.

[Ladyhawk]

25. Question: If it's totally impossible, how come I left the right-wing...

...born-again cult?

I know I'm one of very few people who has done so. What was the difference? How was I reached? Originally, I was exposed to a lot of left-leaning Christians: my professors. Boy, did I fight them! For four years, I fought them!

Eventually, some of their teachings got through. The first, I think, was something that had to do with me, personally: I'm a woman and the bible is often very misogynistic.

Once I realized that a case could be made for any position using the bible, I started getting very angry. Much of it had to do with my personal experience. I was in a lot of psychic pain and the promises of scripture were not working for me. At first I blamed myself, as all fundies will. After all, God is perfect and if there's something wrong, it's definitely the fault of the human.

I chucked the whole construct the day my niece died. After that day, I looked for something that "made sense" but eventually came to the conclusion that nothing makes sense. WE have to make sense of things; no god in the sky is going to do it for us. That realization is still hard sometimes.

Think for a moment. What does religion do?

It allays fears.

Even if it makes no sense, the person hanging on to it will continue hanging on. Fear is a powerful motivator. People like George W. Bush know this. That's why he's playing the religion card so heavily. These people are so fearful, they will not give up belief, even in the face of overwhelming facts to the contrary.

So, how do you reach someone through logic if they are fear-based? It took a long time for me. Perhaps what is needed is an emotional reason to discard the fundamentalist construct. These people need a hope outside their narrow world view.

[JudyM]

39. It seems to me that fundie Christianity breeds fear rather than allaying

but I don't have 1st hand experience. It just seems that they're fear-based - fear of others' views, fear of going to hell, fear of independent thought...? Maybe I'm wrong.

[Ladyhawk]

45. They prey on existing fears and compound them. They also...

...create new fears, but then allay them through services, prayer, etc.

They're salesmen. They see a "need," compound that need, then sell something that "helps." But the fear is always just underneath the surface. I used to be terrified the rapture would come and I'd be left behind.

So, you are right.

It's like an addiction. The fundies need their religion to allay the fear somewhat, but the religion created some of those fears in the first place.

Very true.

[LTRS]

26. I wonder how many that voted yes have actually....

spent much time in the south? These people do not deal in the world of reality and facts. George Bush and his entire republican brigade could burn their houses (and/or trailers) down and they would praise God and say it's His will, and then vote for the same fuckers next time.

I grew up in the midwest but spent 12 yrs living in the south, and I kid you not. Efforts should be focused on the midwest and the west. Forget about the south - these people live in a different reality.

[muse]

75. I voted yes, live in the south and am a "born again" liberal Christian

I was raised in a Baptist Church. My parents are still Baptist - in Austin - but their church is not Southern Baptist and is more liberal, although they certainly have Bush supporters in their church. I belong to a Methodist Church, in large part to get away from the "fundies". But, over time, the congregations of the Methodist Church in the South have become more fundamentalist. I keep telling everyone here on DU and everywhere else that I can that there is a continuum of Christian thinking and we won't be able to dislodge the far, far right from their perch, but I do believe that those that are closer to the middle - even those fairly far to the right - understand Jesus' messages about serving the poor, ministering to those that society ignores, about how the rich have a hard time getting into heaven, judge not lest you be judge, etc.

I live amongst these people, was raised amongst them. Yes, this is "doable." These folks are my friends, family members . . . I go to church with them, my kids go to school with them, they serve on community boards with me, I work with them. They don't all have horns on their heads. They are living, breathing, thinking, college educated people and as such (I'm not talking crazed far, far right wingers), they - over time - are possibly winnable to our side.

[Coyote_Bandit]

27. Faith Based Decisions

require faith based rebuttals. Fundies will not listen to reason. But some might be persuaded by faith based rationale. The sheeple are simple well intentioned idealists. Their leaders have manipulated and used them to advance their own agenda. I swear fundies are a cult of their own.

[Ladyhawk]

48. Yeah...I've been thinking along those lines.

Reasons doesn't work because reason doesn't define their reality. I would say that "emotion" defines their reality. So, they must be reached emotionally.

[gordianot]

28. They need to be born a third time.

By the following: Watching their kids get drafted, experience a bankrupt America, waiting for the time Bush spends his political capital and does not invite them. It's coming.

[PaulaGem]

30. Christians need to face some grim realities -

They need to realize that the entire religious system is devised to steal spiritual power away from the individual and divert it to a political entity.

This is the reason for inventing the "Christian" religion in the first place.

No, I am not an athiest non-believer. I am a Christian who believes that my first and only obligation is to follow Christ. Christ is not a mythologized redemption figure, it is the annointing experienced by those who dedicate their life to doing God's will. Yeshua was such a teacher. His Gospel of God's love was suplanted by religious doctrine and prostitiuted by the Roman church.

Understanding this will take a lot of deprogramming and honest reading of history. I suggest that anyone wanting to evaluate their Christian experience in an honest historical context begin with this essay:

http://students.cua.edu/16kalvesmaki/preface.htm

Love & Light
Paula

[Ezlivin]

31. Once they've swallowed the KoolAid...

...it's too late to rescue them.

Like Ladyhawk, I'm an ex-fundy turned atheist. It takes a lot to get through to someone who is brainwashed and it'll only affect those who still retain an open mind.

Fundamentalist/right-wing Xianity strives to push reality from believer's minds and replace it with a Biblical wonderland.

[Ladyhawk]

49. So, how did you get out?

It took a lot of time for me...YEARS! And the process was very painful. I still feel victimized by the whole experience. That may sound strange to some of you, but it's true. I feel betrayed and cheated. Everything I was taught was a lie! I'm still angry.

I think my natural curiosity and intelligence helped me break free, as well as my love of truth. I usually will follow "truth" to its logical conclusion no matter how painful. Boy does this get tiresome. :( Sometimes I have to take a break from thinking.

What is the key to getting to a fundy? Probably it's different in each case.

I've had no luck liberating anyone from this dangerous cult. Most don't even want to talk about it. Others won't let you get a word in edgewise.

Most likely it's best to focus on those who have an open mind.

Check this out: http://www.betterhumans.com/Features/Columns/Transitory_Human/column.aspx?articleID=2002-12-15-2

I keep vacillating as to whether or not this constitutes a constitional violation. People should be able to believe whatever they want to believe. The problem comes when they insist you believe the same, or make laws that force you into their religion. Also, one could argue that right-wing fundamentalism is harmful both to the one practicing it and to the people around them.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. Double post - ignore

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

33. Born Agains are the definition of "Opiate of the masses"

Being under the influence of such a strong drug, they are unable to see the obvious contradictions between what Christ said and stood for, and what they ascribe to Christianity.

The Catholic Church is merely hierarchical and corrupt with power and money. As an ex-Catholic married to a recently ex-Catholic who went through the whole brainwashing system without succumbing to the anti-female dogma, I believe there is hope for Catholics.

The Church hierarchy at least pays lip service to the teachings of Christ. Unfortunately, for them, some Catholics actually take it seriously. Thus the Maryknoll Sisters protests. The Berrigan brothers. "Liberation Theology", etc.

The Born Agains are to Christianity what Twinkies are nutrition. Popular but worthless.

[restorefreedom]

34. Yes. They think they have God on their side

You just can't reason with that.

[winston61]

36. true believers

After spending some time snooping around FreeRepublic.com, I'm convinced that many of them can never be reached. So much racism, anti-semitism, just plain raging hatred for anyone who does not think like they do. Some are seriously damaged. Drank the kool aid and asked for seconds. Many can be reached however. It will be a painful experience for them, when they find how they have been betrayed.

[Ladyhawk]

51. It IS painful.

That's another reason they avoid reason.

I never asked to be born into a religiously insane family. It just happened. And I've paid the price.

[chispa]

38. Reaching the evangelicals...

I'm a retired democrat, cast my first-ever vote for JFK, am new to DU (computers really aren't my strong suit) and fall into the born-again category. But I ain't a republican! I know a whole lot of evangelicals and don't need to tell anyone at DU that many, no, the vast majority of them are died in the wool republicans. One of the biggest problems is that the church (at least mine,and all of the other ones i'm familiar with) comes dangerously close to equating christianity with 'republicanism' (is that a word?). In other words, 'true christians vote republican'...and "if you are a democrat, then your faith is suspect". That really makes me sad...but angry. I just fail to see and understand how supporting the party that has ALWAYS fought for those in our society that cannot fend for themselves...the party that seeks justice for ALL levels of society...the party that seeks to protect our nation WITHOUT imposing our american brand of justice on other nations...the party that seeks to protect the environment that we've been entrusted with....is not considered 'christian'?

The other major problem I see with my republican friends is that their circles of friends/acquaintances are almost all..republicans! So they are breathing one another's exhaust almost every day.

Reaching evangelicals is in my experience best done on a one to one basis. The media (network news, newspapers and even the internet) is almost useless in this process, as they (like most people, unfortunately) have a conscious or subconscious 'filter' that lets through only those points that support their own position. I've been doing my part in reaching these folks &, interestingly, the fact that I'm a democrat & a christian is regarded by a lot of people as almost a curiosity, so in most cases defenses are not 'up' and I can (most of the time) carry on a logical, unemotional conversation. The one thing I rely on..always...is that we have truth on our side! No matter what happens in the most recent election process, and no matter if the democrat candidate was not the most effective individual in expressing the truth, I, and we, can sleep soundly knowing that truth IS on our side.

[MissB]

46. Welcome to DU!!! (nt)

[JudyM]

69. The country needs more people dedicated as you are to combatting

the power of the evangelicals.

Check out this article - it's great:

http://cleveland.indymedia.org/news/2004/10/12982.php

Excerpts:

...Many Christian fundamentalists feel that concern for the future of our planet is irrelevant, because it has no future. They believe we are living in the End Time, when the son of God will return, the righteous will enter heaven, and sinners will be condemned to eternal hellfire. They may also believe, along with millions of other Christian fundamentalists, that environmental destruction is not only to be disregarded but actually welcomed -- even hastened -- as a sign of the coming Apocalypse.

... We are not talking about a handful of fringe lawmakers who hold or are beholden to these beliefs. The 231 legislators (all but five of them Republicans) who received an average 80 percent approval rating or higher from the leading religious-right organizations make up more than 40 percent of the U.S. Congress. These politicians include some of the most powerful figures in the U.S. government, as well as key environmental decision makers: Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, Senate Majority Whip Mitch McConnell, Senate Republican Conference Chair Rick Santorum, Senate Republican Policy Chair Jon Kyl, House Speaker Dennis Hastert, House Majority Whip Roy Blunt, U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft, and quite possibly President Bush.

...Like it or not, faith in the Apocalypse is a powerful driving force in modern American politics...

... In the past, it was not deemed politically correct to ask probing questions about a lawmaker's intimate religious beliefs. But when those beliefs play a crucial role in shaping public policy, it becomes necessary for the people to know and understand them. ... Do you believe we are in the End Time? Are the governmental policies you support based on your faith in the imminent Second Coming of Christ? It's not an exaggeration to say that the fate of our planet depends on our asking these questions, and on our ability to reshape environmental strategy in light of the answers.

And welcome to DU

:hi:

[chispa]

81. Country needs more...

Many thanks for your reasoned and very-helpful reply. You're very kind.

The article is wonderful and will be of great help!

[chispa]

82. "Godly must be crazy"

Neglected to comment directly on the article you kindly attached.

Despite being an evangelical, I am still totally perplexed at the selective 'issue interpretation' of the Bible that is common in the fundamentalist sector. "End Times" has indeed become a focal point for a number of our republican leaders, as you noted, and I'm sorry to report that one of Missouri's own, Roy Blunt, is among these. (To complicate matters, his son, Matt was just elected governor or Missouri!) For the life of me i just cannot pull any modern day application of "End Times" into our era. Nor can I understand what is almost open warfare from a majority of republicans on the environment!

I agree that questions are certainly in order for our lawmakers, current and prospective, regarding End Times. While I still shake my head that this is even necessary to do...it really is.

[leesa]

40. Their "leadership" needs to be dismantled. They are usually untrained

and extremely ignorant. Only the other good Christians can do thi, however. Many of these people are simply insane.

[Ladyhawk]

52. My mother listens to Hannity, Falwell and Roberson.

No wonder she's so fucked up.

How do you get rid of the fundamentalist leadership? There's someone standing behind every major asswipe ready to take his place.

[democracy eh]

41. if you wait long enough they will be raptured

so it is best to focus resources on the non-rapturees

[JudyM]

42. I heard this week that 25% of fundies did not vote for *

That threw me. I would have expected more homogeneity.

Laura Flanders just laughingly referred to the far right as starting 'the GOP jihad' - how interesting is that!

[LoZoccolo]

50. Yes, 21% of white evangelicals voted for Kerry.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

Just one more reason why lunatic rave-ups like this thread are magnets for my ignore list. I have more contempt for people who recruit for the religious right from the left than I do for those who recruit from the right.

[TankLV]

43. These people - "them" to me - are just nuts and logic is not a function of

their "brains".

Even when presented with the facts, they rely on their fantasy "beliefs".

It's a waste of time and effort.

Best to marginalize and isolate them.

[Conmander in Cheat]

44. Not a fair question...

1/3 of Evangelicals voted for Kerry while only 8% of fundamentalists (self-idenitied as "Conservative White Christians" in CBS ) did the same.

[Ladyhawk]

53. This doesn't ring true.

I used to be a part of the fundy community and being Christian is definitely equated to being a Republican.

[LoZoccolo]

54. You should read the statistics before you rely on anecdotal evidence.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

[Ladyhawk]

57. Aren't these the same polls that were CHANGED before our very eyes?

[LoZoccolo]

59. You sound like certain creation scientists. n/t

[Ladyhawk]

60. Do I have to dig up the before and after shots of CNN polls for you?

Or are you willing to put the effort into doing it yourself? I don't know if CNN bothered to change the fundy / evangelical information or not and I really don't care.

Why so antagonistic? I claimed no great knowledge. I just said it "didn't sound right."

[LoZoccolo]

61. I can't believe you're even asking me that.

As I said before, I have more contempt for people who recruit for the religious right from the left than I do for those who recruit for it from the right. Because they should know better. I shouldn't have to explain to you that your emotions shouldn't cloud your judgement of people to the detriment of what we're trying to accomplish here.

[Ladyhawk]

62. 78% of Evangelical / Born Agains voted for Bush

http://us.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

That's not anecdotal.

[LoZoccolo]

63. And you want to make it 88% next time.

On edit: I'm sorry, this post was too harsh. But what I say in the subject still holds.

[Ladyhawk]

64. Where do you get that idea?

I really don't understand. Have you read all of my posts here? Most of them are me trying to understand what made me leave and trying to find a way to reach these people. But I don't know how.

I voted YES on the original poll, because I'm hoping there is a way to reach them. I think, perhaps, you are the one with the problem here.

[LoZoccolo]

66. I'm sorry. n/t

[Ladyhawk]

65. Sorry, it WAS too harsh and I read it. Too late.

And you don't know me. You haven't looked at the my posts in this thread. I am trying to help find a way to reach these people, if it's possible.

I posted about what made me leave, about appealing to emotion. I don't know how to make you happy, so I give up.

[Ladyhawk]

58. I'm a thread killer...muahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

[Ladyhawk]

67. An insight I gained while contributing to this thread:

Religion is mainly used to allay fear. In the case of fundamentalism, the religion actually creates additional fears, then allays them. The reason you can't use logic with fundies is that their faith is based on fear, which is an emotion.

Perhaps the way to reach them is through emotion? A person seeking a dialogue would have to allay fear and give hope and appeal to the fundamentalist through emotions.

On a gut level, this feels right. And it even fits well into the psychological object/relations model. :) I just don't have any idea on how to go about it.

[neebob]

72. I don't think it's possible to reach any group -

born again or whatever - whose members either lack the most basic skill of comparing words and actions or are unwilling to use that skill in relation to a particular person because that person uses words like God, Jesus, faith, etc. They don't need to see George Bush reading the Bible or attending church more often than any past president, as long as he or someone else they've been conditioned to believe says he does it.

Maybe the skill they lack is questioning. If some guy says he believes in Jesus, there's no need to ask if his actions support his professed belief. No need to ask if the actions and the belief are compatible. They hear George Bush on national television, saying he doesn't want American soldiers subject to world courts - and I think he may have gone as far as to say he doesn't want them being tried for war crimes - and just go, "Yeah! We don't want that, either," instead of asking why he doesn't want it or if war crimes are being committed.

They know there's a war going on, but they either don't care or don't think to ask if anyone besides American soldiers are being killed, much less if that's acceptable. And now I'm getting out of the realm of born-again Bush voters to that of average Americans and the hundreds of basic questions that they, too, fail to ask. If they do ask some of them, at some point they fall back on "but we were attacked and that changed everything," without ever getting around to asking who benefits.

Back to the born-again Bush voters: I don't think it's possible to reach them because, if you do the comparing or questioning for them, in hopes of pointing out a discrepancy, they assume you're doing it because you're evil or under the influence of evil. It's YOU they're afraid of, not George Bush and the church leaders who tell them to support him. It's a total waste of time, in my opinion. You have to wait for them to be personally injured in a manner that is unmistakable to them, so that they begin to realize they've been scammed, and by then we're all screwed (if we're not already).

Plus it takes years to get from the point of beginning to realize you've been scammed to fully realizing to accepting it to being willing to say it to feeling comfortable saying it to others. This I know from personal experience.

[neebob]

77. Never mind the challenge of convincing people who think it's important

to stop women from getting abortions and gay people from getting married that it's more important to stop an illegal and immoral war. If you manage to convince them that the war is immoral, you still have the other stuff. They don't recognize our right to control our own bodies and love as we choose and not look at the Ten Commandments and hear them praying everywhere we go. They don't think it's a good idea to have laws that enable everyone to live together in some kind of harmony and be taken care of on an equal basis. They believe they're being persecuted.

More importantly, they believe God is going to open up a can of whupass and eliminate the rest of us eventually, so we're like dead to them already.

In order to bring them around, you have to get them questioning everything they've ever been taught, including the existence of the vengeful man-god who not only sits around letting all of this bad stuff happen, but purposefully designed it this way. Not gonna happen.

I should add that I didn't vote in this poll because I don't think the born-again Bush voters should be disregarded. They're too dangerous to disregard.

[masaka___]

73. The Mass Psychology of Fascism

Once upon a time, there was a scientist named Wilhelm Reich who had to keep running from country to country, because the fascists of his day didn't like what he had to say.

He wrote books with titles like:

Listen, Little Man!
The Function of the Orgasm
The Mass Psychology of Fascism
The Sexual Revolution: Toward a Self-Governing Character Structure

During World War 2, he ended up leaving Europe and coming to the United States so that he could continue his research in peace. Sadly, agents of the US government ended up raiding his laboratories in Maine. First, they took axes to it and destroyed his lab, and then they burned his books and research. As if that weren't enough, they through him in jail, and that's where he ended up dying. This was about 50 years ago.

You gotta wonder, what didn't they want you to know?

A big theme in a lot of his work is that sexual repression was at the core of a lot of stupid things that people do.

We keep asking ourselves, "why, Why, WHY?" and I think Wilhelm Reich's work provides a very satisfying piece of the puzzle.

For example, when you come across uptight people, do you every find yourself thinking, "That guy needs to get laid." This piece of common sense may be more powerful than we realize.

So do yourselves a favor, and google for Wilhelm Reich.

http://www.google.com/search?q=wilhelm+reich+fascism

Let his death not be in vain.

[Scout]

78. Other Christians should try...

but I don't think they will listen to non-Christians or atheists or agnostics. My experience has been that they are just NOT willing to listen, and just try to convert the other person anyway.

So if the person doing the persuading is already Christian, it saves time.

[Ladyhawk]

80. I think so, but not much time.

I battled my left-leaning Christian professors for four years. That was when my mind was still young and supposedly more malleable. Some fundamentalists will consider left-leaning Christians "heretics," but I still think they are our best bet.

I'm still confused as to why I left while most stay. I could give you my reasons, but I might have overlooked something vital.

Man, I wish it were possible to reach these people. I go back and forth between anger and longing. Sometimes I give up...then I try again, only to find myself up against a brick wall. Almost everyone I know is part of this right-wing fundamentalist group. This is one of the number one issues in my life as well as the country.

It makes me very sad, especially when I'm attacked on a site like DU for simply expressing my feelings. :( :cry:

[neebob]

83. I agree

It's a waste of time for someone like me, who doesn't believe in God, to try and do the persuading. I've wasted enough time trying to persuade my mom, only to end up being shunned. Repressed but functional relationship screwed - FUBAR - and it's my doing.

[Swamp Rat]

79. My offer: free lobotomies for born again X-tians.