stop defending the marine who killed the unarmed POW...

[mike_c]

...by claiming that "he didn't know whether the Iraqis were armed" or "booby-trapped", or similar arguments. Listen to the video-- here's a link:

http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/Video%202.rm

At the beginning the squad approaches the mosque openly, calling out "who's in here?" They knew the building had been secured.

You can clearly hear one marine identify the Iraqis when the troops enter the room. "These are the wounded that they never picked up yesterday." This is BEFORE the shooting. The marines knew the Iraqis were unarmed, gravely wounded POWs that had been given field aid and left behind as hors de combat or "out of the fight." They were NON-COMBATANTS at that point and the marines clearly knew it.

Near the 2/3 point you hear another marine say "Hey, this ones still alive" in reference to the POW who moved his arm, and someone else yells "well fuckin' kill him." Someone else yells "No!"

Near the end another person remarks in reference to the remaining wounded "yeah these are the guys they had here yesterday." This is near the very end of the video, during the last few seconds.

It's crystal clear that the marines knew the circumstances of the Iraqi POWs when they shot them (although the video only documents one death, four of the five POWs were evidently shot). To those who want to forgive and forget this atrocity because the marines were "just kids" or because they were in difficult circumstances-- will you be so willing to forgive the Iraqi insurgents who answer this by killing U.S. POWs? Remember how the Iraqi's treated Jessica Lynch?

[mike_c]

1. self deleted

sorry for the dupe-- DU hiccuped when I posted the thread.

[ShaneGR]

2. I'll defend him....

Guy gets shot in the face THE DAY BEFORE. Guy gets shoved back into duty. Guys buddy gets killed by a booby trapped body THAT DAY.

Guy didn't choose to go there, he was sent there.

[Surikat]

3. Me too...

...it's hard enough being a soldier in a battle zone with your buddies being killed by people who follow no rules whatsoever without having a bunch of journalists and would-be lawyers following you around telling you how to do the job.

[Djinn]

21. it's hard enough

trying to make a life for your family in Iraq without your buddies (and wife, parents, children) being killed by an invading and occupying force that follow no international rules at all, without the western media pretending that by fighting back you are a terrorist or an insurgent.

It is NOT illegal to take up arms against an aggresive occupying force and an illegitimate unelected government.

It IS illegal to invade a nation that posed NO threat to you to you (even if you were naive enough to beleive the WMD crap before it's been proven erroneous now)

[mike_c]

4. watch the video, listen to what they say....

no question that they knew they were murdering unarmed POWs.

[Jack_DeLeon]

17. I saw the video...

another marine called attention to the marine that shot, that one of the bodies was a guy faking it, the shooter then shot the body. It all happened pretty quickly and IMO seems to have been an instinct reaction thing.

Someone calls a target, you neutralize that target. The marine didnt realize how bad off the guy he shot already was till after he killed him.

[mike_c]

22. that is not true-- he already knew the POW was gravely wounded

...and had been left for pickup as secured and out of combat. A neutralized POW, not a combatant. And it's the guy who does the shooting who yelled "he's fucking fakin' being dead." Some else says "yeah, he's breathing." The first marine shoots, then says "well he's fuckin' dean now."

Watch the video posted above if all you've seen is the blacked out and shortend U.S. news version.

[Jack_DeLeon]

24. These Marines were a different unit...

than the unit that orginally went though and cleared out the area in the first place.

Apparently the first unit that went though didnt do a good enough job in clearing it out.

Even the reporter who filmed this incident has said that the unit he was with didnt know at all what had happened in that area till afterwards.

[mike_c]

26. you've obviously not listened to the video....

The marines TALK about their knowledge of what happened BEFORE the shooting. Your statement is just plain wrong. Listen to the video posted above. Do you not hear what they say. I don't care what you've read. Listen to that video dialog.

[jayfish]

116. Wait For It.

Very soon, they will tell you the audio has been doctored. (since you can't see anyones lips) A video expert calling himself mop-handle will certify it as a fraud and then everyone will finally be able to get back to "wife swapping" on ABC.

Goooo Baack Toooo SleeeeepppZZZzzzzzzzzzzz....

Jay

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. That is nice

tell me then why did we try all those Germans and Japanese after WW II... how about Malmedy?

Oh never mind, it is OUR guys, they are only kids....

The geneva conveniton matters not....

[Tace]

7. Nobody Made That Soldier Go To Iraq -- He Went On His Own Free Will

You are responsible for your actions. If you think otherwise, you have some unpleasant learning ahead.

[high density]

10. What are you talking about?

Bush sent him there. It's called war and nasty things happen.

Let's see what the investigation finds before we hang the guy.

[Tace]

12. Hey, I'm Not Judging The Guy -- I'm Only Saying He's Responsible For

his own actions. If that's a foreign concept for you, then you, too, are in for some unpleasant learning. No way am I trying to blame him for the actions of his superiors.

[high density]

14. I'm well aware of that concept

Then again I've never had to think about my actions while being deeply involved in urban warfare or after being shot in the face.

[Tace]

20. I Want To Get Off My High Horse And Sob For This Man And Every One

else involved over there. To me it's complete madness. I have no malice toward our soldiers, or the Iraqis. You have a really good point.

[Djinn]

25. no-one is forced to sign up for the army

the army fights wars for power and profit NOT freedom, it has never had anything to do with freedom - even in WW2 which I would have fought in, the UK/US an allies were more than happy to ignore the suffer of people under the Nazi's so long as they didn't get ideas above their station and extend their territory too far.

If you sign up you might get an education, decent pay (although it doesn't sound much like it) get to travel, learn a trade...you may also have to take part in an imperial brutal war that is completely unjustified.

Jeremy Hinzman & Camilo Mejia decided they had better options than killing Iraqi men women and children in order to line the pockets of already obscenely rich corporate arseholes.

[Tace]

30. What If They Threw A War, And Nobody Came?

In the end, I believe that war will end when nobody is left willing to fight it.

[Djinn]

50. self deleted - dupe

[Djinn]

52. I'm not exactly a pacifist

there are war I would have fought (had I been alive and in most cases a bloke) in and regimes I would have fought against (and still are) but very few that the US (or any of the "coalition partners") have been involved in over the last half century.

It's intersting to me that people don't feel "sympathy" for or provide excuses for Japanese or German soldiers during WW2 even though THOSE soldiers would have been shot for refusing rather than court martialed, besides surely being court martialed is better than killing an innocent person or being involved in the rape of an entire nation and it's people's future.

[Winamericaback]

70. Agree

I wish more people thought that way *sigh*

[Maat]

8. It is just a tragedy. Period.

That's what I learned as a social worker. If you focused on blaming, it would eat you up. Should he be punished. Yes. But the mental illness he was suffering from should be taken into consideration, and the unconscionable input he received from his superiors, no doubt. Why do we set young kids up for this? This whole war has been a tragedy.

I see ShaneGR's point. Yet the atrocities go beyond my wildest imagination. The persons I think are responsible are employed in the White House.

We need to bring them home now - before more lives are destroyed.

[x-g.o.p.er]

46. I will defend him, too.

Ditto what ShaneGR said.

[jayfish]

115. Wow The Story Gets Wilder And Wilder.

Now, not only was a body booby trapped, it killed his buddy too. Whats next? He thought it was Bin Laden lying on the floor? Strangely enough, the video is always the same.

Jay

[consciousobjector]

6. It's true...

these marines may be young and frightned, but in an all volunteer military, they are supposed to be professionals. If they have received insufficient training, then their superiors are also to blame, but these guys should have known better...wouldn't anyone realize it's wrong to kill a wounded POW?

[mike_c]

9. alright, this thread is getting the discussion-- I'll ask that the other..

...be deleted.

[lynx rufus]

11. you are right

[Jack_DeLeon]

13. No....

Sorry you dont decide for me who I'll defend or who I wont.

I think the Marine fucked up, but I wont condemn him as a cold blooded murderer.

The shooting appeared to be instinct/reaction based on the fact that another marine called the target out to him.

Definately alot different than lining people up and executing them.

[LisaL]

15. Yea, sure.

He didn't have to line them up.
:eyes:

[mike_c]

16. did you listen to the dialog on the video as noted above?

How can you call it an instinctive reaction? It is absolutely clear that the marines knew beforehand what was going on in that mosque. Listen to the video.

on edit: will you be as forgiving to the Iraqis who kill U.S. POWs? What's the difference?

[Jack_DeLeon]

23. Yes I saw the video....

I have made a post above that you can read if you so choose.

Well there is no difference between Americans or Iraqis killing POWs.

The death of any Iraqi POWs in places such as Abu Graibh would be just as wrong as any American POWs being executed.

That being said the person who was killed in this video was not a POW, no American forces ever took him under thier control, that wounded man probably never surrendered to American forces. Perhaps his wounds incapacitated him and prevented him from doing so. That being said he was not a POW, he was simply an enemy wounded. You dont become a POW until you are captured or surrender.

[Djinn]

28. he might be considered the "enemy"

by the illeaglly occupying force but others would consider him an Iraqi who has every right to take up arms against the people who invaded his country and setup their own PM without the consent of the Iraqi people and systematically set about looting all the nations resources and locking them into contracts and "intellectual property" clauses that will yoke them into poverty forever.

[mike_c]

29. you are absolutely uninformed about this....

The Iraqis were neutralized, disarmed, field treated, and left as hors de combat by the previous squad. That means POW for former combatants that have been secured. The marines in the video TALK about this before and after the shooting, so they were aware of it. You say you've watched the video, but I think all you've seen is the sanitized U.S. media version.

[Sandpiper]

18. My support for the troops ends...

Where acts of outright murder begin.

I do not support crimes against humanity perpetrated under the banner of the U.S. military.

Not now, not ever.

[Tace]

19. Hey, Peace Everyone

[Surikat]

27. People tend to forget little things that actually happened...

...when they put on their lawyer hats.

American Marines were retaking a town where numerous beheadings took place. As well, if you will remember, this is the town where four American contractors were murdered and their bodies burned. Two of them hung from a bridge in town.

This is the town where the city fathers said al Zarqawi wasn't, but all the same Iranian troops found the slaughter chambers in which hostages had been beheaded.

In WWII, Japanese POW's were only taken if intelligence was needed late into the war by the Americans. One of my ex-wife's uncles was at Guadalcanal. His squad got separated from their unit for about six weeks and captured a Japanese soldier. Six weeks later after nearly starving they rejoined their unit... and were ordered to shoot their prisoner who they had got to know quite well.

Similarly, at the end of WWII American forces liberated the Dachau Concentration Camp. The commander of the unit that took the camp had the camp staff summarily executed on the spot. No trial, no Geneva convention, no Nuremberg.

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauMemorial/Liberation05.html

These are the sorts of things that really happen in wartime. You can try to pretend that everything goes by the rules, but the truth is, it doesn't.

I think you need to ask yourself if you are angry with this young, obviously shellshocked Marine or if you're angry with President Bush and this is the person nearest to him who you can wish ill.

If Bush is the object of your ire I'd suggest you work on keeping focussed. This young Marine is already in a world of hurt without a significant chunk of the American public, which you are, piling on.

[mike_c]

31. this "young marine's life" deserves to be in a "world of hurt...."

He murdered unarmed POWs who had already been secured as hors de combat. The third Geneva Convention is very specific about that.

[Surikat]

32. Let's be specific...

... According to the report I had he shot a wounded insurgent who had been captured the day before and left unattended thereafter for 24 hours. His healthier brethern could have taken him away, armed him or booby-trapped him during that time.

If this "prisoner" had been under guard I'd say you had a case. He hadn't been. There was no way to know what state (armed, booby-trapped, etc) he was in.

BTW, it's HORS de combat.

[mike_c]

33. don't rely on some second hand report or the sanitized U.S...

...media version. Click the video link above and LISTEN TO THE DIALOG. It is clear that the marines knew the Iraqis were hors de combat (typo corrected in the previous post, thanks). They talk about it before the shooting. They approached the mosque openly-- almost casually, and called out to someone they thought might be inside before they entered-- they clearly knew the building had been secured by previous squads. They knew the wounded POWs were inside waiting to be transported. It seems they just didn't expect them to have survived the wait.

[Surikat]

34. I listened to the dialog...

I watched the unedited film clip over at ogrish. What I heard and saw was a young, wounded Marine who should have been taken off the line and given medical attention stress out and lose it.

[mike_c]

35. then you saw only what you wanted to see....

The truth is painful sometimes. Closing your eyes doesn't make it any less true. Do you still deny that the marines were aware of the POWs status when the shootings took place? If so, I won't try to break through your blinders any longer.

[Surikat]

38. Oh please... GET a grip...

[coder]

39. I spent 24 years in unifrom

and yes what happened was murder. These guys may wear Marine Corps green but they sure as hell aren't the real deal. I was a Marine NCO from 67 to 75 and I am ashamed of what these kids are doing. If it were just one incident I say it was just one bad apple but it's not just one incident. I watched some Marines commit murder over years ago when they shot a wounded Iraqi who was down and out of the fight in cold blood. I watched about a week ago as they murdered an unarmed Iraqi civilian. No this trash is not the exception but the rule. And they are doing it in your name.

[Danger Duck]

41. I spent 24 cents

in a peep show. Semper something, right Sarge! Give me a break.

[Djinn]

59. why do you call them insurgents

why do you think they don't have the right to take up arms against an invading force?

[Danger Duck]

37. There is nothing

that will satisfy you. You are willing to say or do whatever to critique this soldier. Murder. Come on. I have two cousins in infantry, and a great friend who is an acting CO over there right now. And I would hope that they error on the side of caution. What you must know, given your eagerness to point to the videotape, is that a POW had faked death earlier, and had detonated a small explosive in order to kill a few of our guys. This marine thought the POW may have been up to the same thing, since he was not responding to his calls. he saw him move, and he shot him, out of self preservation. It may have been a mistake, but it's a mistake he has the prerogative to make. It's not murder. There were other POW's in the room, all of whom were unharmed.

And as far as the noble cause of these insurgents, re-examine that. the leader isn't from Iraq. They are beheading prisoners that are not even soldiers. And the entire insurgency is a religious sect that wants to assemble a theocracy, and is unwilling to operate on any sort of civilized platform.

I can appreciate your opposition to this war, it is logical and well founded, and shared by myself. but when you use your passion to twins and convolute every circumstance to fit into your version of how the world should be, you cease using your intellect and become a fascist of one. Just because you oppose the war doesn't mean you have to turn off any critical thinking ability. our soldiers are no different than you and I, and want to get out of there without bloodshed, of there's or the insurgents.

Taking a life is something these soldiers will have to live with forever, and it's not something that falls lightly off their backs. What the marine did may have been a mistake, but mistakes are made. This is a war. Quit using this incident for propaganda.

[mike_c]

42. OK, I give up-- there's a river in Egypt that ya'll should be fond of.

eom

[Danger Duck]

43. Never give up.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Djinn]

67. Kool aid much?

"And as far as the noble cause of these insurgents, re-examine that. the leader isn't from Iraq. They are beheading prisoners that are not even soldiers. And the entire insurgency is a religious sect that wants to assemble a theocracy, and is unwilling to operate on any sort of civilized platform. "

1. "the leader" who are you referring to - Al Sadr is considered a leader in the insurgency and he's Iraqi

2. We have no way of knowing if Zarqawi (a) is still alive and (b) how much if anything he has to do with any of the kidnappings/explosions etc

3. "They are beheading prisoners that are not even soldiers" US forces are arresting & torturing people who aren't even soldiers - some have had their children tortured to make them talk, others have been killed. Which is more barbaric

4. Even IF the "entire insurgency is a religious sect that wants to assemble a theocracy" which you have no way of knowing (although interestingly 80% of Iraqi according to several NGO's survey's want US forces out of Iraq) it's NOT up to you or any Americans to decide they CAN'T have that. If the elections ever happen and the vast majority of Iraqi's vote for something along the lines of Iranian system are you going to deny them that - is it democracy only as long as we like it?

5. If soldiers want out of an illegal war they need to do whjat other conscientious objectors have done. US forces have NO RIGHT TO BE IN IRAQ, the entire operation is a war crime. Period.

[Djinn]

57. well

Horrible things have happened in war before so lets keep doing them.

Hell people have been murdered before so if I go out and kill someone tonight there's no need to "blame" me for it.

Horrible things happen that are against the rules all the time and not just during a war (which by the way this isn't this is a "liberation remember"??) that doesn't mean we just accept them.

[Ducks In A Row]

36. He's not to blame, it's the assholes who put him there

who gave the free fire zone orders? Who told that person to give the orders?

I blame the republicans. It's entirely their fault.

bush** is the war criminal, not this guy.

[mike_c]

40. so were these guys war criminals...

...or was their boss the only one to blame?



BTW, if you don't recognize it, this is Warsaw during the insurrection, when these foreign occupation forces were stressed out and twitchy from putting down an "insurgent uprising."

[The Straight Story]

44. None of it was real

It was all a KGB plot, I saw a plastic white chair in there you can only get Comrdade-Mart's in siberia.

Maybe he should have beheaded the guy, then some people might defend him, blame someone else, or say it was all fake and done by the CIA. Heck, maybe this was done by some dem ops in a sound stage to make * look bad.

Whew, been reading too many conspiracy threads of late...

[carolinalady]

45. He's a kid!! Scared shitless. Enough said.

[mike_c]

47. what about those kids in #40?

Do they get a pass too? They were Ukranian, brought to put down the rebellion in Warsaw, with the SS at their backs and the "insurgents" in front. I'm certain they were scared witless, too. They're clearly "kids." Is that all it takes to obtain absolution from war crimes?

[Danger Duck]

48. So now

we're the Nazi's.
Any one with a sixth grade education knows that you can compare anything to the Nazi party in an attempt to win an argument. Those kids in that picture were executing unarmed citizens. This marine shot and killed a POW that he though may have been arming a bomb, or otherwise threatening him. It could have been a huge mistake, he may even have had malice. You don't know, I don't know. But it seems a bit extreme to jump to the conclusion that acting in self preservation and defense of others is the equivalent of genocide.

[mike_c]

49. good gawd you keep repeating the same misinformation as...

...though repetition will make it true.

This marine shot and killed a POW that he though may have been arming a bomb, or otherwise threatening him.

The marines knew the POWs were unarmed and had been previously secured by another squad, who had left him in a secure situation for pickup. That is clear from the first 1/3 of the unsanitized video. The first POW killed (the one in the video) was unconscious. He didn't move or do anything threatening-- one marine called out that the Iraqi was breathing, then he shot him. Ironically, the one that moved his arm feebly was evidently not killed, at least not on camera-- see the last 1/3 of the video. Someone yelled "well fuckin' kill him" but someone else yelled "No!"

As for the matter of genocide, here are the people of Fallujah gathering their dead after the U.S. bombed a civilian neighborhood:

[DrWeird]

51. What do you expect?

They're war crimes apologists. The moral equivalent of Nazi sympathizers.

[Surikat]

56. Yup... when in doubt...

...call somebody who disagrees with you a Nazi. That works every time. :nuke:

[DrWeird]

63. I'm not calling him a Nazi because he disagrees with me.

I'm calling him a nazi because he's apologizing for war crimes. Plain and simple. The analogy fits.

[Danger Duck]

58. Am I taking crazy pills?

Why is it that when backed into a corner, everyone on this board starts calling those who disagree with them a Nazi?

[DrWeird]

62. Here the analogy fits.

The problem with comparing people to Nazis is when you do it for people who are too authoritarian, like people who want to outlaw smoking in public places.

In this case the actual crime is the exact crime that made Nazis so bad.

[Danger Duck]

68. No it doesn't fit

and it's insulting. What do you know about the Nazi party, or the Holocaust? Why would you compare what we are doing to them? If you truly believe that we are the reincarnation of the Nazi's, I feel sorry for you, and would demand that whatever public or private schooled system that gave you an education immediately grant you a refund.

The Nazi party, under Hitler, demanded that undesirable be murdered. It systematically sought to wipe out entire races of people. Even in a worse case scenario, in which this Soldier killed the POW out of hate, that doesn't begin to translate into a collective mentality, goal, or purpose of the US military.

[DrWeird]

84. Even Nazis had a hard time executing POWs.

When Hitler ordered the prisoners of the "Great Escape" executed his generals begged him not to. The Commandant of the prison was so disgusted by the act he had a memorial built to the POWs.

So this war crime would have even made plenty of Nazis upset. Funny how you still apologize for it.

[Danger Duck]

87. Apologize?

What am I apologizing for? I'm offering my interpretation of the events, as I see them. You're jumping to conclusions, and assuming the worst.

[DrWeird]

89. Yes.

Like people who say, "holocaust? Oh, it wasn't that bad, and the numbers weren't really that high. Besides, those people probably wanted to die anyway. Did you see how thin they were? Goodness."

Or the Japanese people who don't want Nanking in the text books. Their interpretations of the events, as they see them, weren't that bad.

"You're jumping to conclusions, and assuming the worst."

I'm not assuming anything. I saw it on video. And if you did too, than you're obviously in denial. Like holocaust deniers, or japanese apologists.

[Danger Duck]

92. I saw the video

I saw him shoot a POW that he thought was pretending to be dead. He shot him because he thought that he may have an explosive, since another POW had done the same thing that day, to soldiers in his platoon. Could you stop pretending that only the facts that you like are the only ones that exist? Using your logic, I could infer from watching the attack on the world trade center that American Airlines has very poor pilots.

[RyomaSakamoto]

88. do you realize we targeted HOSPITALS and AID STATIONS and cut FOOD/WATER?!

to a whole city and a complete media BLACKOUT. i am very surprised this footage made it through the friggin MATRIX, sheesh.

we are obliged to remember it to to our best to prevent it from happening again.

psst... pass the word :hi:

[RyomaSakamoto]

82. how bout the imperial japanese during wwII in asia? i.e. NANKING...

Japanese aircraft bombed south Shanghai Station Aug.28,1937.
About 200 people in the waiting room were dead or wounded by the bombing. A crying baby was left alone after the bombing.
"Life" Oct.4,1937

[mike_c]

60. it's freaking me out-- or creeping me out....

You're right-- it's like trying to have a discussion with Hermann Goering. "That poor misunderstood stormtrooper-- it was only a minor error in judgement. Pay no attention to those dead POWs" Over on OneHundredPercenter they're calling for giving the guy a medal.

[DrWeird]

66. Freepers.

All of them. They did this same shit with Abu Ghraib.

[Danger Duck]

54. Yeah, he knew he had been secured

24 hours ago. And another secured POW had killed several marines that same day. So the logic was that this POW could have been given or received an explosive implement or weapon.

As far as your picture, tragic, not genocide. Not quite at the Nazi level. But keep trying. I think it's terrific.

If you want to see a murder, go here:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/4CBA1458-4085-45A4-B4AA-789098B66818.htm

[DrWeird]

55. Yeah, tell it to the tribunal.

Maybe Hitler could have argued all those Jews really had knives in their pockets and were gonna get him.

[Danger Duck]

61. What's your point?

Maybe you enjoy trivializing the holocaust, personally, I don't. I guess I consider it wrong to take the slaughter of 14 million people, and use it to advance my own agenda whenever it's convenient. But your last comment just showcases who and what you are. you're a vessel devoid of reason, unable to stand up and articulate a point made. Rather, you lurk in the shadows, trying to find some pull some sliver from your flesh that contains a fact or two, and thrust in in the face of whoever it is that is not filling in the holes in your own propaganda.

As a liberal, as a democrat, as a progressive, as a human being, the goal for all discourse should be truth and reason, not to prove that you are right.

[DrWeird]

65. I'm not trivializing the Holocaust, you're triviliazing a war crime.

You, sir, are not a liberal, a democrat, or a progressive.

And you hardly qualify as a human being.

[Danger Duck]

73. No, I'm rubber

and you're glue.

Stop name calling, or non-name calling.

I've stated all of my points, none of which you choose to address. I've left open the possibility that this may have been a crime, but was more than likely a soldier acting in self preservation. Let the investigation unfold.
But since you are convinced that this was a crime, why couldn't it be an act of self preservation/ Can you unequivocally state that he shot this POW because he hated him?

[DrWeird]

76. You'd have a point if it wasn't caught on tape.

But it was. It's a crime. The only person you're fooling is yourself.

[Surikat]

78. Sentence first, then trial - Red Queen

Alice in Wonderland - CL Dodgson

[DulceDecorum]

101. EXECUTION FIRST, then cover up.

How can ANYONE defend the murder of a human being
INSIDE A HOUSE OF WORSHIP?

Does the word SANCTUARY mean nothing to you?
http://www.bartleby.com/61/4/S0060400.html

[DulceDecorum]

96. We are witnessing the Iraqi Holocaust

and everyone knows
the nationality of the butchers (aka mercenaries)
and the nationality of their paymasters (and accomplices.)

The U.S. contributed more than seven-eighths of the participating soldiers; assistance also came from the United Kingdom and several other allies. ........
In addition to regular troops there are roughly 20,000 private military contractors, described by some critics as mercenaries, in Iraq (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/19/international/middleeast/19SECU.html).
This is more than twice the number of boots on the ground than the second largest group of troops of the participating nations, United Kingdom. These contractors also differ from regular troops as they are outside a Uniform Code of Military Justice, and have little or no legal accountability, making them especially feared and unpopular with the Iraqi population. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinational_force_in_Iraq

There are serious doubts even within the occupying power about America's choice to send Chilean mercenaries, many trained during General Pinochet's vicious dictatorship, to guard Baghdad airport. Many South Africans are in Iraq illegally - they are breaking new laws, passed by the government in Pretoria, to control South Africa's booming export of mercenaries. Many have been arrested on their return home because they are do not have the licence now required by private soldiers.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0328-02.htm

Weep loudly
and raise up your voice in lamentation,
for Abraham and Sarai
were Iraqi citizens and the land of their birthplace is now being destroyed.
http://www.aish.com/societyWork/sciencenature/Abrahams_Chromosomes$.asp

A POX ON THOSE WHOSE INFLICT THIS HOLOCAUST UPON THE GOOD PEOPLE OF IRAQ.

Iraq is home to some of the most important landmarks of the Judeo-Christian tradition, including the reputed Garden of Eden and Ur, the birthplace of the patriarch Abraham. .......
Ur. Supposedly the world's first city. Peaked around 3500 B.C. Ur is mentioned passingly in the Bible as the birthplace of the patriarch Abraham. Its fantastic temple, or ziggurat, was damaged by allied troops during the gulf war, which left four massive bomb craters in the ground and some 400 bullet holes in the walls of the city.
http://www.iun.edu/~hisdcl/h113_2001/iraq.htm

[Djinn]

72. And those Nazi's

would have been shot had they refused orders - slightly more of a disencentive than a court martial.

BTW - thos Nazi were shooting "insurgents" the uprising was armed and those Nazi's had every reason to believe that the "insurgents" had weapons so you're attempt to split hairs is moot.

BOTH the Nazi's and US forces (and COW "partners") had no authority to be claiming the people they were killing didn't have every right to take up arms.

[Danger Duck]

83. Point taken

I'm not saying that the insurgents, rebels, freedom fighters don't have a right to defend themselves. Of course they do, it's a war. But we have a right to defend ourselves against those that take up arms, regardless of whether or not the war was unfounded. If you think that our troops who don't refuse to fight deserve to die, I'll respectively disagree with you.

My hope is that we can stabilize the region, and get out of there. That won't happen when we have strongholds like Falluja providing a safe have for those that behead and bomb our soldiers and citizens, especially in non-combat situations.

Of course, when the Nazi army forced over 14,000 Polish people to dig a trench, lined them up, shot them in the back of the head, and watched them roll into their ready made "grave", that was a war crime. When they went door to door executing civilians, that was a war crime.

[Qanisqineq]

64. I don't forgive him

nor do I condone what he did. But I am not willing to rush to judgement. I try to take the all the circumstances into consideration. Just because I consider the conditions he's been living in and the fact that he was wounded the day before (as I've pointed out in other threads), don't think that that means I am okay with what he did -- I am just not so willing to immediately hate him and scream "murderer". He's probably pretty fucked up in the head right now and I can't blame him. Maybe it is just that there is so much death going on, I am pretty hardened to it now.

I feel the same way about this situation the way I feel about abused women shooting their husbands. I don't condone it, but she's probably screwed up in the head after all that. I am not saying these situations are the same, I am just saying I feel the same way about them.

And don't think that ALL the troops are saying, "hooray for him!" because that is BULLSHIT. The repug soldiers my husband works with are disgusted by it and are quite vocal about it.

Edit: As for Jessica Lynch -- I wasn't outraged about her treatment. I was surprised they didn't leave her for dead in the first place.

[Surikat]

69. Well said.

[mike_c]

71. I wasn't suggesting that Lynch's treatment was outrageous....

Just the opposite-- the Iraqis gave her medical attention and saved her life, rather than summarily executing her. "Look, she's still breathing!" Bang! Didn't happen.

[Surikat]

74. naah... they just summarily executed about half of the other ones.

[Djinn]

75. she actually got perferential treatment over Iraqi's

in the hospital she was taken to, the only perssure mattress in the entire hospital was given to her and she was given extra supplies of juice...and SHE was a member of the forces invading and occupaying the hospital staff's country.

[Qanisqineq]

79. you're right about her treatment

I knew they treated her wounds but I couldn't remember how they treated her (if you know what I mean).

On the other hand, we DON'T KNOW that - "look he/she is still breathing" BANG - hasn't been done by the Iraqis. I wouldn't condone it from either side. But my previous statement still stands.

[Danger Duck]

98. Wasn't she raped?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-11-06-lynch_x.htm

But I guess that's not that outrageous.

[RyomaSakamoto]

102. no she wasn't numbnutts

it was all another psyop that fell apart when she told her side of the story.

The truth about Jessica

Her Iraqi guards had long fled, she was being well cared for - and doctors had already tried to free her. John Kampfner discovers the real story behind a modern American war myth

Thursday May 15, 2003

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,956255,00.html

obviously you r not pay'n close attention to the details... very unmilitary bearing their shipmate.

[Danger Duck]

104. My nuts aside....

that article doesn't mention rape. Mine did. It also said that an Iraqi doctor said she wasn't raped, an american one said she was.

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mike_c]

106. more misinformation....

"Reuters interviews the doctors who treated Jessica Lynch in Iraq. They are unanimous in their assertions that she was not raped. Lynch does not recall being raped. Yet author Rick Bragg's publisher is standing by the charge in his book that she was sodomized.

Dr Jamal Kadhim Shwail was the first doctor to examine Lynch when she was brought to Nassiriya's military hospital by Iraqi special police. Shwail said Lynch was lying in the crowded reception of the hospital, unconscious and in shock from blood loss.

She was wearing her uniform including a flak jacket, military trousers and boots, none of her clothes had been unbuttoned or removed, as the book claims, he said. .... He said her flak jacket was removed and her clothes were cut away to expose the injured sites. The anesthetist cut away an area around her groin to insert a catheter to drain urine....Her clothes were not torn, her boots had not been removed. There is no way (she could have been raped)."



"From the time I woke up in that hospital, no one beat me, no one slapped me, no one, nothing," Ms. Lynch told Diane Sawyer, adding, "I'm so thankful for those people, because that's why I'm alive today."

[DulceDecorum]

77. Faces of the Enemy

Examines the techniques of propaganda used to teach us ‘to hate all the people our relatives hate” Some 400 posters and cartoons show how enemies are dehumanized by portraying them as enemies of god, barbarians, terrorists, sadists and aggressors so that we will be able to kill without remorse or pity.
http://samkeen.com/apologyforwonder/list.nhtml

The propaganda masters are among us promoting
Semper lies.
They are killing civilians kneeling
in a house of worship.
Soon they will kill us too.
And then they will laugh
and congratulate themselves on a job well done.

After he shot an innocent Iraqi woman because he thought the package she was hiding was an explosive, he "freaked out." He began to question the war and wondered why U.S. soldiers, his buddies, were getting killed in Iraq.
http://www.southbendtribune.com/stories/2004/11/17/local.20041117-sbt-LOCL-A1-Iraq_veteran.sto

The scene, which has been broadcast here and around the world, depicted Marines approaching several injured men who had apparently been left there from the previous day.
Narrating the video, NBC correspondent Kevin Sites reported that one of the Marines noticed that one of the injured was breathing. “he’s f****** faking he’s dead,” the Marine shouts, raising his rifle and firing a single shot in the man’s direction. At that point, the video as broadcast on US television, goes black, but an unidentified voice is heard saying, “he’s dead now.”
In a report that accompanied the footage, Sites said, “The prisoner did not appear to be armed or threatening in any way.”
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7315.htm

CNN Presents: Fit To Kill
Aired October 26, 2003 - 20:00 ET
CROWLEY: Wounded, another Iraqi writhes on the ground next to his gun. The Marines kill him -- then cheer.
RIDDLE: Like, man, you guys are dead now, you know. But it was a good feeling.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fire!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah!
CROWLEY: When the battle is over and you are still standing, the adrenalin rush is huge.
RIDDLE: I mean, afterwards you're like, hell, yeah, that was awesome. Let's do it again.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5365.htm

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mike_c]

93. dude, I've been around here quite a bit longer than you...

...so don't lecture me about how to use the alert button. Personally, I think the mods have taken the night off because believe me, alert buttons have been hit in this thread for hours now. We get these militarist, war crimes apologists with low post counts repeating the same tired misinformation-- "he was a threat! he might have had a weapon! our boy was just tired, and who cares about dead eye-rackies anyway?"-- it's pretty obvious what's happening.

[Jack_DeLeon]

94. undoubtably...

so why dont you act like it.

[Danger Duck]

95. It's obvious

you can't debate or discuss your way out of a paper bag. Everyone who doesn't think our soldiers are Nazi's is a Nazi apologist. Could you please address the point I've made, about the POW who pretended to be dead, and killed some of our soldiers? I'll buy you a beer, sing you a song. Anything.

[DulceDecorum]

111. What Iraqi POW?

I thought the Marines were in the habit of killing anything that moved?
Since WHEN have they EVER taken ANY prisoners?

You people have been saying that just because ONE SINGLE MARINE EXECUTES IRAQIS the whole entire Marine Corps should not be held in contempt.
AND YET you are now here screaming for the MASS EXECUTION of prone breathing unconcious Iraqis simply because of some claim
(and quite frankly I believe this to be a lie on par with the WMD crap)
that some dude somewhere maybe did something
that some serial-killer reported to some spin-doctor someplace.

During the U.S. war in the Philippines between 1899 and 1904 (which grew out of the Spanish-American War that had erupted in 1898), ordinary American soldiers shared the nationalist zeal of their commanders and pursued the Filipino “enemy” with brutality and sometimes outright lawlessness. Racism, which flourished in the United States in this period, led American soldiers to repeatedly assert their desire “to get at the niggers.”
http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/58/

Most days of the week, I am against abortion.
But everytime I encounter a PR operative,
I realise once again,
why women should not be forced to waste their energy in bringing some fetuses into this world.
Damn Rosemary's babies -- every last one of those psyops.

[bvar22]

81. It is very simple.

At least 4, maybe 5 wounded, disabled, unarmed Prisoners of War were executed by a squad of Marines.

The age or mental state of the executioners doesn't change the facts, but these rationalizations may help make the cold blooded murders acceptable to certain individuals who can not face the horrible reality.

Reports from inside Iraq indicate that this is not uncommon. The difference in this case is that it was filmed, and someone of conscience managed to get the film outside Iraq.

[mike_c]

85. yes-- my point in starting this thread was that the circumstances...

...are abundantly clear on the video, but that most Americans probably haven't seen the full AP video, just the sanitized version. I thought that once folks heard the dialog that occured before and after the murders they would be less willing to bury their heads in the sand. Man, was I wrong. There is some major denial going on in here-- not to mention a bit of not so stealthy freeping, I think.

[Danger Duck]

90. She's a witch!!!!!

burn her!!!!! burn the freeper!!!!!

[RyomaSakamoto]

99. happens all the time

when u defend WAR CRIMES on DU... you'll get used to it, i suppose :hi:

[Danger Duck]

100. Well, the Ministry of Love has spoken

So tired. Going to bed. Will not think independnetly anymore. :spank:

[RyomaSakamoto]

103. yall come back now

and u'll learn somet'n :hi:

thank GORE he 'INVENTED' the INTERNET :bounce:

night

[Surikat]

91. Sheesh...

Somebody doesn't agree with your thesis and they're freepers or Nazis. That sounds like a pretty authoritarian approach to life to me.

[Violet_Crumble]

97. Sheesh indeed...

Much like it helps to watch and hear what's being said in that video, it also helps to read what mike said and respond to what he said instead of something he didn't say. Then you may have noticed he pointed out there was a lot of denial going on, and MAYBE some stealth-freeping. And what he said doesn't sound authoritarian at all, just common-sense from someone who's been at DU long enough to notice those sort of things...

Violet...

[Surikat]

105. I listened to the video and watched what happened

(had a unblanked copy from German television). I obviously didn't take away the same impression by what I saw and heard that Mike did. Because I didn't have a reaction that matched Mike's, I'm in denial. Is that it? That still sounds pretty daddy-knows-best to me. I think the Marine is going to see a courts martial over the incident and I have no objections to that. That said, I expect that he's going to get diminished responsibility by virtue of the very extenuating circumstances that have been discussed in the thread. I may be wrong on that, but I don't think so. I don't expect him to get off scot-free. He'll probably get a few months in the brig and a dishonorable discharge. Making him out as some sort of latter-day Totenkopf SS war criminal, is, however, for my money, way, way over the top.

[mike_c]

109. I'm not asking for your reaction....

Do you deny that the dialog I described above is on the video as I've described it? If you deny it, then we are either listening to two different videos or one of us is lying. I'll leave it to others to listen to the tape and decide who the liar is, or who is in denial.

The fact is that one of the marines stated the POWs' circumstances as the squad entered the mosque and before the shooting began.

Making him out as some sort of latter-day Totenkopf SS war criminal, is, however, for my money, way, way over the top.

Would you extend that same understanding to an Iraqi who kills an American POW? Wouldn't the same extenuating circumstances apply?

[Surikat]

110. Yup...

"Do you deny that the dialog I described above is on the video as I've described it?"

I said what I said to Violet, not that long ago. We two obviously hear with different ears and see with very different eyes. Perhaps I've just been around casual death in conflict situations too often to have the same degree of outrage and revulsion that you seem to exhibit.

I'll ask you the same question that I asked before, though. Are you SURE that your understandable anger with Bush as CiC is not getting displaced onto this Marine? It looks to me like he is carrying the can for higher ups when I see your reaction, which I consider over the top.

"Would you extend that same understanding to an Iraqi who kills an American POW? Wouldn't the same extenuating circumstances apply?"

I think we already have. We certainly haven't done any great witch hunt for that MIA pilot nor have we gone looking for the guys who murdered those contractors and hung them off the bridge in Fallujah. From what I heard we haven't even taken the city fathers of Fallujah on a tour of those hostage slaughter houses that they insisted didn't exist.

[mike_c]

113. good lord, we've slaughtered thousands in Fallujah since...

...those mercenaries were killed-- killed in action I might add, not shot as unarmed POWs. You are trapped in some serious fictional universe.

on edit: appreciate your candor regarding my question. I presume you'll get the opportunity before long.

[Surikat]

114. When you start using evocative terms...

like mercenaries for private security guards, we haven't got enough of a common vocabulary to even have a discussion, never mind understand each other's world view. I lived in Africa long enough to know mercenaries. Those guys in Fallujah were babes in the woods, barely bank guards from the way they handled themselves. Signing off on this thread.

[gee double you bee]

108. While I understand and respect where mike is coming from

I would like to echo what ShaneGR said.

[mike_c]

112. actually, I agree with everything that ShaneGR said, too....

But I think it's a bit beside the point. My post was simply to illustrate that the defense that I'd been reading in earlier threads-- that the marines did not know the real situation in that mosque and that they acted on the presumption that the POWs were a threat-- was contradicted by their own words and actions on the video, both before and after the killings.

[Moderator]

117. locking

the "engagement" level, has rendered this a total flamefest.

Please remember the "ignore" feature if it's impossible to "not engage" in verbal fisticuffs.