"official language" debate

[datasuspect]

is largely racist codespeak on the part of supporters. because the "immigrants" referred to are 9 times out 10 MEXICAN/LATIN AMERICAN/BROWN immigrants

there is an implicit assumption that immigrants maliciously speak their native languages and cling to their cultural identities to purposely affront americans. as if there were some kind of agenda to usurp white supremacy by making native born americans uncomfortable.

it's like blaming the victim.

official language supporters aren't honest to concede their own racism, so they project that onto the non-native born and impute malicious intentions on the people they hate.

[picante]

1. Spanish is the official language of Mexico

is that racist??

[StopTheMorans]

2. how many immigrants does mexico get per year?

do they have to deal with this issue? :eyes:

[picante]

4. what issue??

does anyone question whether the official language in Mexico is Spanish? should they not have an official language? Mexico has many indigenous populations who do not have Spanish as a first language.

[StopTheMorans]

8. Mexico doesn't have the immigration issues that we have

hence, they don't have to deal with the fact that a rapidly and ever-increasing portion of their population does not speak English. When Mexico starts having to deal with loads of immigrants who don't speak Spanish that are coming across it's borders, then we'll talk. this is apples and oranges...

[picante]

12. Guatemala has more people of Mayan descent than Spanish

the official language though is Spanish. One of the reasons to have a common language is to foster communication. One of the problems being that there are several indigenous languages. Just as in the US there are not just Spanish immigrants but also people from Asia etcetera.

Someone who only speaks Quiché cannot speak to someone who speaks only Mám.

[StopTheMorans]

15. your last statement is obvious, but the original poster here

is bringing up the specific problem that immigration (i.e. more specifically native Spanish-speakers) is posing to our country with respect to the language barrier; not the issue of whether a country that has an indigenous population who do not speak the "official language" can become united with an "official language". again, apples and oranges...

[picante]

17. why do you call immigration a "problem"?

could that not be interpreted as "racist"? It seems that term is thrown around rather loosely.

Immigration is necessary and important to our country, so is the ability to be able to communicate with one another.

I do not agree with the original poster that there is an "implicit assumption" that immigrants maliciously speak in their native tongue to spite americans. That is ridiculous. More likely they 1) cannot speak English or 2) prefer to speak in their native tongue to another native speaker, which of course is only natural.

Regardless, having an official language is not racist.

[StopTheMorans]

21. a "problem" is the same as "an issue"; it is posing a "problem"

right now because these people cannot effectively communicate with many other citizens of their adopted nation (if you don't see that as a problem, then this discussion is not worth continuing). thanks for trying to play the racist card on me though...

[picante]

23. exactly,!!, so isn't that reason to not only have an official language

but also promote it???

[StopTheMorans]

27. nope; it's the reason to have multiple official languages

we're the only damn country in the western world that steadfastly refuses to embrace multilingualism. even if other countries (i.e. those in Europe) only have 1 official language, many of their citizens are fluent in various other languages. we should be encouraging diversity and learning and making everyone feel welcome; not trying to stifle it by promoting this jingoistic "official language" crap. hell, why don't we have an "official religion" too; i often feel like i can't really communicate with right-wing christians?

[picante]

33. not realistic

with the multitude of languages spoken here. are you simply going to add additional languages to the official list over time? and what good does it do if people cannot speak all those languages. you still have the communication problem.

I agree that we should promote education in other languages but what is so nefarious about declaring English the official language?

[StopTheMorans]

35. my point exactly;there is NO NEED FOR AN "OFFICIAL LIST"/OFFICIAL LANGUAGE

it serves only to divide; that's what's so damn evil and underhanded about declaring English the official language. there is NO NEED to do it; it's only another instrument of division to add to the countless others that have been foisted upon us by the assholes on the right.

[picante]

38. and my point is that there should be something around which we can unite

a common language.

are the French up in arms because French is their official language? should they change it because of the many immigrants coming to the country, same with Germany, Spain, etcetera.

[StopTheMorans]

41. most of the french can already speak multiple languages

they don't have to deal with the closed-mindedness with respect to language that we do. we already have enough damn things that we can "unite" around; have you seen the american flag perhaps? have you "supported our troops"? have you heard our national anthem? does everyone have to dress like you, look like you, and talk like you for you to consider this country "united"? if so, then i don't want anything to do with your "united" America.

[picante]

44. so what if they speak more than one language, I do too

they still associate French as part of their national identity. I take the exact opposite view that you do. not having a common language, divides people. a common language unites people.

[StopTheMorans]

47. one. more. time.

we're as "united" as we ever need to be. thanks to the "uniters" in the GOP; we don't talk about any of the issues that are really important to this country (i.e. the fact that most of us are getting screwed by *'s tax cuts, the fact that corporate greed is boning a lot of workers out of their pensions, the fact that millions of americans don't have healthcare, on and on) because we're "united" in our opposition to gay marriage, our opposition to abortion, etc... THIS. IS. ANOTHER. WEDGE. ISSUE. AND. WE. DON'T. NEED. TO. CODIFY. ANY. MORE. DIVISION. BY. PUTTING. IT. IN. THE. CONSTITUTION.

[datasuspect]

50. yeah

this country is really "united."

i know what will bring us together: constitutional amendments banning gay marriage, a constitutional amendment making english the official language.

like i said, this is bizarro world.

all these official language people probably can't even see that the government has a vested interest in bringing and keeping illegals here (especially the bush administration).

it is really good for business.

so they make it seem like we have to fight over $5/hour jobs.

this is all top down.

divide.

distract.

conquer.

[MISSDem]

81. Not to mention a constitutional amendment to allow

Ahnald to run for President. I read that there is a group out in california trying to get that going.

[picante]

51. calling it a "wedge" issue is a cop-out

please, its still out there. Not addressing it or discussing it is not the answer.

by the way, there would be no reason to put it in the Constitution necessarily. It could simply be the passage of a law.

[StopTheMorans]

54. a law. in the constitution. whatever.

it's not an important issue, b/c it's already understood in this country (read: ENGLISH IS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE, THE PRIMARY LANGUAGE IN THIS COUNTRY). it's not a cop-out; a cop-out is raising issues like this to prominence in the national dialogue while refusing to discuss and, more importantly, ADDRESS the real issues that are affecting people in their everyday lives.

[MsTryska]

I don't understand how it's divisive?

if anything it's uniting.


Look at India, for example - there are something like 40 different languages and 100s of different dialects.


each state has it's own native tongue.

However the official language of the beuraucracy used to be english, and is now Hindi.

granted certain groups don't like that Hindi was chosen, but it serves the purpose of helping people to get along when they need to do official business, as well as when they travle around within the country, marry people outside of their specific culture groups etc.


betwene my parents they spoke 7 different languages, with only 3 in common.

they speak english as a main language, and then telugu as their "adults only language" and tamil when discussing with their families, altho even then it's mainly english.


when we travel around India tho - my mother is the sole communicator because she's the person who speaks Hindi. and that's what gets up and down and all over india.

[datasuspect]

3. do you have an argument germane

to my post?

or are you simply a disruptor?

[picante]

5. yes, I am questioning why you think it is racist

n/t

[datasuspect]

7. my initial post explains why i think it is racist

and since you are a disruptor, i won't waste anymore time with you.

i presume you were answering both my questions affirmatively.

[picante]

14. Is a disruptor someone who doesn't agree with you?

not much room for diversity of opinion here.

[datasuspect]

6. and yes (reply to picante)

if there were millions of white americans going there to seek economic opportunity and if they were marginalized because they only speak english, yes, it would be racist.

satisfied?

[picante]

9. a common language unites people

and there ARE millions of Mexicans of indigenous descent who do not speak much Spanish.

I do not agree with your premise that having an "official" language is racist.

[StopTheMorans]

10. a one party system unites people

a fascist dictatorship unites people, heck, a theocracy unites people, but having a "united" country isn't necessarily always a good thing if the means you use to "unite" the country are suspect in the first place...

[picante]

13. a fascist dictatorship terrorizes, controls, and represses people

I would not confuse that with "unite"

[StopTheMorans]

16. "unite" by any other word

an "official languages" controls and represses those who do not speak it; I would not confuse that with "unite"...

[picante]

19. being unable to communicate divides people

n/t

[StopTheMorans]

22. i agree, so why not provide more avenues of communication

rather than less? why codify something that can only serve to divide and anger people?

[picante]

24. why not promote a common tongue to facilitate that communication?

would anyone be surprised if that common tongue were English??

[StopTheMorans]

29. why not lead dead dogs lie?

why the hell do we have to promote an official language? it's already english by default; why do we have to codify it? this is just another damn "wedge issue" meant to scare the ignorant and further divide a country that has no needs for more division based along class/racial lines.

[datasuspect]

32. thank you

more wingnut scare tactics to keep up the siege mentality.

lately, i feel like i live in bizarro world.

the inmates run the asylum.

[Dark]

87. I support English as America's one official language.

Very simply, it is a matter of practicality. What if we had not only the Mexicans immigrating, but also French-Canadians, Chinese, and Hatians arriving here in droves. Those four peoples each speak a different language, but if they were to become as large a population as the Hispanics, then would you be calling for every part of America to be speaking and communicating in FIVE languages? No, of course not.

People work better when they all speak the same language. I am more than happy to welcome any immigrant who is coming to America, but they have to learn English so that they can communicate with me and I can communicate with them.

[picante]

36. if you don't encourage it

how are you going to fascilitate communication? with more and more Spanish speaking immigrants here, the necessity to learn English decreases. I don't see how this is a unifying to the country.

and if English is the official language by default as you say, then what is wrong with codifying it.

[StopTheMorans]

39. why do we need to codify it if it's already understood?

again, it's an instrument of division. why don't we just codify christianity as the state religion since a majority of americans practice that? what point would that serve other than to divide us? none, and that's my point; this can lead to nothing but divisiveness, jingoism, and increased xenophobia. screw lady liberty; we don't want your oppressed, your downtrodden, or your spanish-speaking. welcome to amerikkka; your kind aren't welcome here...

[picante]

43. because there is freedom of religion

however, I note that the Constitution was written in English. It would be nice if the immigrants could read it, don't you think?

codifying an official language does not restrict free speech, whereas codifying an official religion is in fact contrary to the Constitution, specifically that the government cannot "establish or prohibit the free exercise thereof"

there is no such limitation on a language. however, an official language would in no way prohibit free speech.

[StopTheMorans]

45. you missed the main thrust of my argument and obfuscated the issue:

i wasn't attempting to say that declaring a state religion would be the same as declaring an official language;. my point is that doing either would only serve to divide us, and not to unite us (as you claim). there's no need for declaring an "official language"; again, (i feel like * here having to repeat the same damn thing a thousand times); it's only an instrument of division that will only serve to drag the national dialogue further into the mud when we should be talking about the greater issues that affect all of us (i.e. the millions of americans without healthcare, the fact that our tax code is screwing most of us at the expense of the uber-rich, the fact that our environment is being pillaged, etc...).

[picante]

49. sorry, I don't accept your analogy

a system of beliefs is not analogous to speaking a common tongue.

and I am sorry you feel like Bush, but I still don't agree with you.

Maybe you could explain how declaring an official language would divide us? Surely you believe latin immigrants recongnize that the US is an English speaking nation.

My contention is that speaking a common tongue would unite us. Now of course we would have to promote its use.

[StopTheMorans]

53. how many times do i have to explain this? have you read ANY of

my posts? i've said the same thing about 20 times. if you'd only read the PRIOR post of mine that you responded to with this post, i said that I WASN'T MAKING AN EXACT COMPARISON BETWEEN RELIGION AND LANGUAGE; merely, that codifying things that are implicitly understood in this country will only serve to divide us. Alright, in simple language (can you only understand "talking points"?), i will attempt to explain how an official language will divide us:

It forces people to be on one side of the issue or the other; when it's an issue we shouldn't even be talking about b/c it's not important (as English is already understood to be the primary language in this country). It's just like the Gay Marriage ballot initiatives: there's no chance that a Gay Marriage law will be passed nationally, yet religious nutjobs and right-wing whackos in individual states STILL FELT THE NEED TO DIVIDE PEOPLE BY CODIFYING THEIR HATRED; even though there's no chance a national law would ever be passed. what purpose did this serve? You got it; to scare fundies and to divide people. By forcing people to confront yet another TRIVIAL issue that isn't even meaningful and thereby dividing them further, the GOP takes everyone's eyes off the myriad ways in which they're screwing this country, and they win.

[picante]

59. we all have differences of opinion

of course there will be issues that we will be on one side or the other. Good God man!, that's what a democratic process is all about.

and again, your comparison of a Gay Marriage law to a common language declaration is an inappropriate comparison.

I don't believe many were advocating FOR a gay marriage law. Rather, people were using the legal system to get married or challenge existing laws and notions regarding the institution of marriage.

The gay marriage BAN initiatives were in response to the legal maneuverings of gay couples who wanted to be married.

A better analogy would be say Spanish speaking immigrants going to the courts to get Spanish declared an official language or have the requirement that all documents and governmental procedures be conducted in Spanish just like in English.

My understanding is that a declaration of an official language is just that; a declaration. Don't confuse it with "English only" or some sort of requirement to only speak English.

[StopTheMorans]

63. a declaration is still divisive. if you want division, fine.

n/t

[TahitiNut]

11. Why not become a citizen of Mexico and discuss that with other ...

... Mexican citizens? :eyes: It's irrelevant here.

[bowens43]

26. yes

[cattleman22]

18. The issue is not black and white

I think it does not foster understanding and discussion to come out and say that everyone who thinks English should be the official language is a racist. This plays right into the right wing's hands and allows them to call lfties race baiters.

[bowens43]

28. It is black and white.

the official language crap is aimed directly at Hispanics, no one else.

[sui generis]

20. I don't have a problem with declaring an official language

and I speak three of them fluently.

I also don't have a problem with requiring a second language starting in elementary school.

I live in a pocket neighborhood on the bleeding frontier edge of urban pioneering (a.k.a. the mexican ghetto) in Dallas. I have lived here for ten years and I see people every day who I have known for most of those years who STILL don't speak english, and for all intents and purposes are stuck in the ghetto, as are their children.

It's not racist. It's practical. You have to set a standard or people will stick to the status quo.

[bowens43]

30. It is not being suggested for practical reasons.

It's being suggested because the proponents are by and large racists who wish to make life difficult for the large Hispanic population that speaks little or no English.

[StopTheMorans]

31. exactly, see my post #29, it's another damn "wedge issue"

meant to confuse and scare those who are too damn ignorant to pay attention to the larger issues at hand that are affecting our country.

[sui generis]

58. wedge issue and racist

I guess I'm a racist who supports wedge issues. You are not going to convince half the people here that it is PURELY a racist wedge issue.

Unless you are able to fairly consider the merits of the argument from both sides, your position is shrill and simplistic.

[StopTheMorans]

64. this is a non-issue; that's my point, and you're clearly missing it

this isn't even something that should be on the radar; it's only being brought up to play the race card and to further divide this country (regardless of what side of the issue you're on).

[sui generis]

65. and whenever it's brought up someone will be there to say

it's only being brought up to play the race card and further divide the country.

Unless you can intelligently argue for AND against without playing the race card and being divisive, you are part of the problem!

[StopTheMorans]

67. i can see both sides of it; both have valid points

regardless, it's so trivial that none of us should be wasting our time on it anyways; and we should recognize it as such WHEN the GOP tries to bring it into the national dialogue...

[datasuspect]

66. i brought it up

because i was disgusted by the remarks i read on another thread regarding the issue that went unchallenged and i started a new post because the issue wasn't related to op's post on the other thread.

are there guidelines for posting other than what the site administrators have listed?

sorry, but i have always called things like i see them.

[picante]

68. taking a side on an issue is not equivalent to agreeing with the motives

Clearly there are those that take the "English as the official language" position because of an anti-immigrant attitude. These are the people who would likely support the odious and unconstitutional "English only" position.

However, agreeing with an English official language position does not mean I agree with the motives of SOME of those also support it. The original poster and you seem to believe that if you support English as an official language then you must be a racist or a hate monger.

That is simply incorrect and illogical. My motives include enhancing communication and therefore UNITY. You apparently disagree, fine.

Same with the gay marriage issue. Many do not agree on moral, religious, or traditional grounds. that does not signify they are homophobes or hate mongers either. Their motives are certainly not just the narrow ones you are attempting to attribute to them.

[sui generis]

57. that's a myopic statement

everything is not that black and white. So nobody can ever suggest that without being called a racist? Color me racist then.

[City of Mills]

34. I agree

I live in a multicultural city, and I strongly feel that this country needs to have an official language and stop the bilingual education. The kids in bilingual education tend to fall behind as they have to take classes in both english and whatever language they speak fluently. I've seen a lot of kids I grew up with fall behind and end up getting stuck working manufacturing jobs because they have no opportunities. I'll make some blatant generalizations here based on my experience - the hispanic and cambodian population in this city suffer the most with this, as they tend to speak their own language at home and amongst their peers (often, the parents, who were the original immigrants, never learn english). However, I see a stark contrast with the indian/pakistan immigrants. I personally know several guys who have been in this country less than a year, and they already speak understandable, functional english. This makes such a difference, as they are able to function in this very english-immersed society and they have a political voice as well. I love all of the different cultures in this city and I hate to see anyone lose opportunity based on the simple fact that they cannot communicate.

[datasuspect]

37. help me understand

you said:

"I've seen a lot of kids I grew up with fall behind and end up getting stuck working manufacturing jobs because they have no opportunities."

is this the result of bilingual education?

at least you are fortunate enough to have manufacturing jobs (once the backbone of the american economy) in your area.

what about all those kids who can't get jobs BECAUSE THERE AREN'T ANY JOBS?

[City of Mills]

46. Manufacturing companies

in this area tend to be the largest employers of those who do not speak good english. The pay is low and many offer low-to-no benefits. These jobs are dead-end jobs - I live in Massachusetts, and there are companies shutting down and moving south all of the time - the cost of living is just way too high in this area and companies cannot afford to pay decent wages and still make a profit. I worked in manufacturing for a few years and it was a nightmare. I started as a temp working third shift with the promise that I would become permanent within three months. I got laid off from that temp. third shift job a few months later, as the company went south. There are still a lot of manufacturing companies around, but they are all mostly on the decline. We had one particular employer in my city fold (a pasta company), and over 400 people lost their jobs. Most of these people were non-english speaking locals, many of whom did not find other jobs. As a result, the whole area suffered. Around here, if you don't speak good english, you either don't work (and collect unemployment), you break the law to get by, or you work a production line in a factory. It's a sad situation. Ironically, there are a lot of opportunities here to better yourself, as my city is home to both a state college and a community college.

I don't know what to say about the kids who can't get jobs because there aren't any. It's true, and really sad. I see a lot of educated adults taking jobs that they would normally consider 'beneath them'. My wife, for example, works in education and makes okay money, but then she works a night job making a little more than minimum wage. I work two jobs as well, and we're barely keeping afloat. I really feel for the kids who get left behind, they do not have realistic options.

[datasuspect]

48. i hear ya

but this isn't the result of immigration.

this is the result of economic policy from the top levels. you think it's bad here, try living in mexico. that's why so many people come here. $5/hour is better than $5/day.

[City of Mills]

52. And I agree with you too

Because no doubt, there are people who use the issue of an "official language" as a tool to further their own prejudice against non-native english speakers. We have a conservative talk-show host up here and while we both believe in english immersion, there is no doubt in my mind that this individual is prejudiced against immigrants. However, having never been to Texas, I am unfamiliar with the racial landscape and the associated issues of your area.

[sui generis]

56. actually!! English is the "official language" of Pakistan /nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

77. India and Pakistan/Latin America and Cambodia = apples and oranges

Most Indian and Pakistani immigrants are middle class to upper class, therefore educated, therefore speakers of English. They spoke English BEFORE they came. They didn't run down to Berlitz and take an intensive course or something. If Indian and Pakistani peasants were coming here in large numbers, they would be speaking one of the region's 150 languages, not English. By the way, some of the Indian/Pakistani professionals DO speak their ancestral languages at home.

In constrast, most Latino and Cambodian immigrants were peasants or at most, blue collar workers before they came here. They may have been lucky to get through elementary school. Of course they speak Spanish or Cambodian at home. Would you want to raise your own children in a foreign language that you yourself barely spoke?

As for "not learning English," yeah, people who don't have much education to begin with and who may be working two low-paying jobs to stay alive, are not doing too well learning English. Even if they're exceptionally motivated, it isn't easy. My church in Portland sponsored several refugee families from places such as Bosnia, Albania, and Somalia, and getting them signed up for English classes was so complicated and the waiting lists were so long that you just know that it would be difficult or impossible to do without the help of somebody who was already fluent in English.

The fact is, it is terribly hard for an adult to learn a foreign language from scratch, and those who are most successful are those with the educational background and the leisure to study intensively. A perfect example would be one of my college professors, a refugee from Latvia, who already had graduate degrees and spoke Latvian, Russian, French, and German before coming to the States. Even she obviously struggled with English, despite being surrounded by it all the time.

Speaking a foreign language at home is not a problem for a child growing up in an otherwise English-speaking environment. There's a great incentive to learn English, since the entire pop culture is in that language. I've never found a young person who came here before adolescence and attended American schools who had trouble learning to speak English. In fact, their English is likely to be stronger than their ancestral language, because they have the full social range of English but only the "kitchen variety" of their ancestral language. It is a very common pattern for immigrant parents to speak the ancestral language to their children, who then answer them in English.

For reasons too complicated to explain here, I volunteered for ten years inside a high school building that was full of immigrant students from Russia, Romania, Vietnam, Latin America, and various African countries. Almost all of them spoke English with little or no accent. I was often surprised when a student who had been speaking teenage English indistinguishable from that of the other students asked to use the phone, and then launched into a conversation in Russian, Spanish, or Vietnamese.

Bilingual education is needed, however, because it prevents the children from falling behind in other subjects while they're acquiring English. They also need help in acquiring formal English in a way that native-speaker children don't, since they have no one at home who can read to them in English or look over their school compositions.

I can understand the Latvians wanting to declare Latvian as their official language, since they are in danger of being swamped by Russians, thanks to Stalin's relocation policies. I can understand Mexico declaring Spanish to be official, since they have hundreds of Indian tribes that still use their traditional languages.

However, English is in no danger of disappearing from North America. Rather, it is the immigrant languages that consistently disappear. In the 1930s, Fiorello LaGuardia had a successful career as mayor of New York based partly upon his ability to campaign in both Italian and Yiddish. How many monolingual speakers of Italian and Yiddish are there in New York today? In the nineteenth century, German held the same position that Spanish holds today. There were bilingual schools in all major cities, and my grandmother, born in 1899, recalled when the north side of Minneapolis was a German city in miniature, where you could walk into every store and do business in German.

It's all gone, swamped in the overwhelming social pressure to speak English.

I can't help seeing the uproar about bilingual education as being racially motivated and reflecting anxiety about the "browning" of America. Nobody seems to object to the Hawaiian language immersion programs in Hawaii, or to the efforts to preserve French in Louisiana.

Like black box voting, declaring English as the official language of the U.S. is an attempt to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

[MsTryska]

85. There are Indian and pakistani "peasants"

coming over too. As well as Bangladeshi.



they learn english as well.


I'm not saying one can't speak the languages of their homeland - what I am saying is, that one should learn to speak the language of their destination land as well.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

89. I find that hard to believe, since

they would not qualify as refugees (as the Cambodians do), nor would they be likely to scrape together the money to afford passage on their own.

Are you saying that there is an illegal immigrant industry for South Asian peasants as there is for Chinese peasants, in which they work essentially as indentured servants to their "sponsors"?

And if you want immigrants to learn English, support the establishment of classes for them, because the current system is overloaded.

People don't just "learn English" on their own as adults.

[MsTryska]

106. I fully support the establishment of classes in English

and yes, there is a bit of an illegal alien trade. and strange visa setups for store workers.


the illegal alien trade is nowhere near as prevalent as witht he chinese, but all those shopworkers you see, and gas station attendants, and random loiterers are not necessarily educated class south asians.

[Telly Savalas]

104. What she said. (eom)

[Kathy in Cambridge]

121. Mass. has bilingual education, & the valedictorians of public high schools

are overwhelmingly from immigrant families whose first language was not English. These kids went through bilingual education in grammar school. How do you explain this?

[bowens43]

25. I agree with you completely. nt

[picante]

40. you may want to change the thread title

since apparently you weren't looking for a "debate"

[nonconformist]

42. That's ridiculous

My step-father is Hispanic and that side of the family is bilingual. I grew up in that family, and I recognize that English is the official language of the U.S. because it's what the vast majority of Americans speak. Now suddenly I'm RACIST against my own family? Against my brother and my sister? I think not.

My biological father was Italian, his parents (my grandparents) immigrated from Sicily by way of Ellis Island. They worked hard to adapt to their new country, including by learning English. Immigration is not a new concept in America - it's what America was created for.

In areas where there are a heavy concentration of Spanish-speaking immigrants, there are many resources available and most public buildings have a Spanish speaker on staff. When is the last time you called an automated service and didn't get the English press 1/Spanish press 2 prompt? I support these things to help people with the adjustment period (which I acknowledge can last a generation). But that is no reason to declare that English is not the official language of the U.S. and it most certainly doesn't make me a racist. Being anti-immigration, anti-adjustment period may mean you're racist. But you're framing the argument in too broad of a way and in it's net it will catch many others (including Hispanics) who are most certainly not racist.

[GraphicQueen]

55. This is exactly why the Republicans are able

to use so much against the Democrats. There are far too many that try to racially bait so many such as this lead post. It is nothing but a racial bait question and nothing more. Go ahead and try to get others because this is something that the Republicans can get all around and make the Democrats look so bad. This lead post is proof that they don't have to look very far to grab a hold of someone that doesn't understand what racism truly is. Have fun race baiting the people in here.

[datasuspect]

60. got news for you dear

i could have posted any progressive idea or principle and it would be something a republican could use against me.

i'd have to be a republican for them not to use anything against me.

and i have been on the receiving end of racism. don't tell me i don't know what racism is.

[GraphicQueen]

70. Many people have been

on the receiving end of racism. Hell, I am half Apache and am married to an Apache and live on the res. You don't think we know what racism is? But I will tell you one thing. You have no idea what it is like watching your home, and by that I mean acres of land not just my private home, overrun by invaders that come across the border illegally. And yes, since I am Apache, there is a certain amount of distrust automatically for any Mexican, but I don't hate them. You need to realize that there are many different races and ethnicities that cross over the border every day down here. It isn't just Mexicans like you are trying to tell everyone and it isn't just people from Latin American countries either. So, at least tell the WHOLE truth when you post your race-baiting posts.

[cattleman22]

83. I agree

I just do not understand why so many liberals play right into the right wing's hands by claiming that everyone who disagrees with them is a racist.

[datasuspect]

90. can you understand

that whatever a liberal/progressive says will play into the right wing's hands?

cut with the apologetics and assimilationism (with the right)

[cattleman22]

93. Assimilation with the right?

How is asking people to keep an open mind assimilating with the right.

All I have done is ask that the rhetoric get toned down to foster a better discussion. There can be no discussion if anyone who disagrees with this is automatically labeled a racist. That hardens the mind and limits debate.

[UpsideDownFlag]

61. when my great grandparents immigrated from Germany, they learned English

pretty darn quick, i might add. I understand that times change, and people should embrace their own cultures. however, there is something to be said for at least being mildly proficient in the given language of the country you live in.

when i say given, i mean that spoken by the majority of business, the government, etc.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

78. Did you actually know your great-grandparents, and

how well did they speak English?

I did know mine. They came here in 1899, and while they could get along in English, most of the time they spoke a weird combination of German and English, having half-forgotten their native language without really learning the new one.

Their children (my grandmother and her siblings) all spoke English without an accent, despite the fact that they spoke German at home while growing up.

I've seen the same phenomenon in Japanese women who came here after marrying American G.I.'s during the Occupation (1945-1952). Their English is not very good, and yet they can't speak Japanese without throwing in English words constantly, because they've forgotten much of their own language.

[UpsideDownFlag]

92. my grandparents told me about them.

they moved here, settled in pennsylvania, and learned rudimentary english fairly quickly.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

62. Official language no, but...

I'm Italian and, when I moved to rural NC at 15, I didn't know 1 word of English (I had studied French in Italy and I am fluent in French to this day). I realized that the only way for me to learn the culture (and succeed in high school, college and the work environment) was to learn "English" (or rather a southern american English dialect!). I did not abandon my roots or my culture. I just learned another language and was able to educate myself. Now, I am fluent in 5 languages and familiar with 3 more.

When I go back to rural NC to visit friends, I notice that the local Spanish-speaking population lives within the same areas, goes to the same Spanish-speaking stores and their children attend school in ESL classes where both their Spanish and English language skills are very sub par.

I think that the reason why I felt motivated to learn English for my own survival was that I was put into a place where no one spoke Italian and the only way for me to survive was to speak English. Had I moved to Brooklyn or another area with an Italian-speaking population, I probably would not be as fluent or assimilated or professionally successful as I am today.

I am not saying that English should be recognized officially as the one and only language. However, I do think that immigrants from all over should learn to speak it, rather than stick with those like them. Within the Spanish-speaking community I am familiar with, made up of mostly uneducated migrant workers, the Spanish that is spoken is very bad (grammar nonexistent, etc.). The English is even worse and, like I said before, even the children, who are often more bilingual, sometimes end up not speaking well in either Spanish or English, but Spanglish infused with a bunch of hip-hop language and a bastardization of Spanish, English and local dialects.

There is no doubt that the business is conducted in English; classes are taught in English; and, let's face it, English is a common language for most people in the world. I don't see anything wrong in ensuring that people, whether immigrant or not, learn English and learn it well (of course, I'm all in favor of teaching foreign languages and cultures from a very early age).

By the way, my biggest pet peeve is for employees at a store or fast food restaurant speaking in another language among each other in front of me (or other customers); this happens at the nail salon, at McDonald's and at the grocery store. Even if I understand what they are saying, I think it is very rude.

[theboss]

71. Do people ask you to spy for them?

Like George Costanza's dad in the Korean nail salon?

[MsTryska]

69. Then i must be a minority racist.

i'm an immigrant.


and i still believe if the country you go to speaks a specific language it behooves you to speak that language as well.


if i went to france, i find it highly unlikely i could speak english all my life as my sole language and be able to get along.


same if i went to japan.


same if i went to mexico.


when in rome, do as the romans do.

[Bridget Burke]

72. English is the "de facto" official language of the USA.

It's a powerful world language & is not endangered. No new laws are needed.

Support classes in English as a Second Language--free or cheap & conveniently scheduled for working people. Support English education in the schools. (And support other languages being taught in schools--starting early.)

Anybody who's upset just because they hear others speaking a language they can't understand is a victim of their own ignorance.

[StopTheMorans]

73. Exactly!

excellent post:)
:thumbsup:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

79. Yes, at last a sensible response!

Ignorant Americans criticize immigrants for not learning English fast enough to suit them, but would they be willing to pay taxes for a program like the one Israel requires of new immigrants, namely, intensive language camp (in Hebrew, in their case) before resettlement?

Are they willing to fund community college evening classes in sufficient numbers to shorten the lengthy waiting lists?

[TahitiNut]

74. Irish is the 'national language' of Ireland.

It is only spoken by a minority of the citizens of Ireland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_where_language_is_a_political_issue

[Bridget Burke]

75. Yes. In fact, my most recent Irish ancestors were "lucky"....

Because they didn't need to learn English when they emigrated. They'd already been exposed to centuries of English culture.

Someone mentioned the Indians & Pakistanis as immigrants who had less trouble with English than other groups. Don't forget that their homelands also enjoyed the beneficence of the Empire. (Same for many Nigerians & Jamaicans.)

God Bless England!

[TahitiNut]

76. I guess it helps "to know your place"

My grandparents were Norwegian immigrants ("filthy Scandahoovians") who faced the bigotry of insular nationalism and xenophobia throughout most of their lives.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

80. European Americans forget that in times past,

their ancestors were regarded the same way that Latino immigrants are today.

Midwesterners in the nineteenth century used to wonder seriously about whether all those Scandinavians and Germans would ever learn English and refer to them as "dumb Swedes" and "dumb Krauts." Eastern Europeans were "Bohunks," and Italians were "wops" or "dagos."

[TahitiNut]

82. It follows a 'generational child abuse' model ...

... after a fashion, I think. I'm not so sure people forget any more than a fraternity member forgets pledging. The practice of 'earning the entitlement' to abuse others pervades authoritarian subcultures. In some respects, I think the biblical 'sins of the fathers' may allude to this human failing.

[Doohickie]

88. Yeah, and I grew up as a "Dumb Polack".

But I'm an American. The difference is that when my ancestors came here, they didn't look back. They were not offered bilingual education in their native language in the public schools. They didn't frequently travel back and forth to visit family back in Poland. They made the U.S. their home.

This is not as much of a rule with Mexicanos. Many still travel frequently back and keep homes in Mexico.

Sure, it sounds racist to point this out, but Mexican immigration is very much unlike immigration from Asia or Europe.

Acknowledging this difference, the real question is whether this warrants or results in special treatment to Mexican immigrants.

[TahitiNut]

108. Did you ever hear of Hamtramck?

My stepfather was a "dumb polack" - immigrant from Warsaw to Hamtramck after WW1. Plenty of Polish immigrants never had to learn English, since Hamtramck had Polish-speaking Catholic churches, shops, schools, and neighborhoods. For a while, it boasted the being second-largest Polish-speaking city in the world, second only to Warsaw itself.

[Doohickie]

120. Yeah, I've been there... great packis.

[MsTryska]

84. I mentioned Indians....

I also mentioned that Hindi is the national language.

[Bridget Burke]

91. Yes, but English is widely taught in India.

Also in Pakistan & Bangla Desh.

A souvineer of the Raj.

[MsTryska]

105. yes.

and it's what's giving India a viable economy these days.

[Doohickie]

86. So... are you asserting that we are somehow preventing

Latinos from learning English? If so, I have a bilingual schoolteacher friend I want you to meet. She is constantly frustrated by the lack of support she gets from parents when she tries to teach their kids English.

[Pithlet]

94. Cling to that notion

Don't listen to the actual point, and in the process prove what the poster is saying. Cling to that notion that Latinos don't want to learn English, and that validates the Official Language movement, and that it means are no racist motivations behind it. Just don't be surprised at the vehement disagreement you get.

[Doohickie]

95. I'm just relating my personal experience

Do you have a different experience to share?

[Pithlet]

98. I don't presume that everyone else

is just like my <insert minority here> friend(s). That is why the "I have friends who are black" kind of statements aren't usually given a whole lot of credit, particularly when the rest of the statement is supporting a lot of the stereotypes that fuel prejudice and racism, and the movements those kinds of things spawn. Like the Official Language movement. So, if by share my experiences, you mean talk about minorities I know and my experiences with them, or cute anecdotes about people who can't speak English: No, I'm not playing that game. Because it is irrelevant.

[Doohickie]

101. Let's look at it this way:

You make your claim. It disagrees with what I see in the real world. Which should I believe? You or my lying eyes?

[Pithlet]

103. Believe whatever you want to

When you state those beliefs, and someone disagrees with them, you can make of that what you will. If you also want to make blanket judgments based on your individual experiences, go right on ahead. If some people don't praise you for your racial sensitivity when you express those views, then you can either care, and reevaluate them or dismiss that person and continue to believe as you do. That is up to you. I'm just calling it the way I see it.

[Doohickie]

107. So am I, dear... so am I.

[Doohickie]

99. Okay, let's go back to the original post:

"official language" debate is largely racist codespeak on the part of supporters.

This is not a fact; it's a viewpoint stated by the original poster and is intended to be inflammatory. It basically says "If you support an official language, you are a racist." I disagree with that viewpoint.

because the "immigrants" referred to are 9 times out 10 MEXICAN/LATIN AMERICAN/BROWN immigrants

I will agree, however, with that part of it. Mexican & other Latin immigrants are a different case from most immigration because of the proximity of Mexico. As a result, there is not "one-way" immigration, but a significant portion of people that keep homes in Mexico while working (often illegally) in the U.S. Immigrants from Asia and Europe are typically more tied to the concept of becoming assimilated into the U.S. because going back is much more difficult, while many Mexicans travel frequently back to their Mexican home and have no intent of becoming U.S. citizens.

there is an implicit assumption that immigrants maliciously speak their native languages and cling to their cultural identities to purposely affront americans. as if there were some kind of agenda to usurp white supremacy by making native born americans uncomfortable.

I don't think there is any malicious intent, but like I said, my experience is that other groups take to English more readily while Mexicans tend to languish in bilingual education.

it's like blaming the victim.

If they don't accept the help offered to them, then yes, I do blame them.

official language supporters aren't honest to concede their own racism, so they project that onto the non-native born and impute malicious intentions on the people they hate.

That's one theory, I guess. My perception is that Mexican immigrants are treated differently than immigrant groups who speak languages other than English or Spanish. If you are Serbian, you get two years of ESL with a teacher that likely does not speak Serbian, then you're on your own (or so my Serbian immigrant friend tells me). Why should Mexican immigrants be able to go through their entire public education and not be able to speak English at the end? If other groups can do it, why not Latinos?

From what I see, Latinos act differently and are treated differently from other immigrants. I think it is in their own worst interest to not learn English, yet a much greater proportion of them don't than other immigrant groups... and they are treated more generously in the public schools (more extensive bilingual education using their native language).

I would very much like to see immigrants become full members of society. Society, I think wants that too.

How about this for a theory: If they can get by without being forced to speak English, that's what they do. Virtually no other immigrant group gets that luxury.

Am I racist for point out that Latinos are treated differently than other immigrant groups?

[Pithlet]

109. To answer your last question? Yes.

Your post is full of racist comments.

I have to say, I think this is funny:

"official language" debate is largely racist codespeak on the part of supporters.

This is not a fact; it's a viewpoint stated by the original poster and is intended to be inflammatory. It basically says "If you support an official language, you are a racist." I disagree with that viewpoint.

You have just reenacted the classic parody of a racist. "Some say x is racist, but I believe x, and I'm not a racist, so it must not be racist! It's just their opinion, and they're only stating it that way to inflame people like me, the ones who believe x!"

[Doohickie]

110. Your argument carries no more weight than

"Peanut butter sandwiches are only eaten by racists." (assertion)

"This is not a fact; it's a viewpoint stated by the original poster and is intended to be inflammatory. It basically says "If you support peanut butter, you are a racist." I disagree with that viewpoint." (my response)

"You have just reenacted the classic parody of a racist. "Some say x is racist, but I believe x, and I'm not a racist, so it must not be racist! It's just their opinion, and they're only stating it that way to inflame people like me, the ones who believe x!" (your response to mine)

This is logically equivalent to what you say in Post 109. It doesn't carry water.

[datasuspect]

111. how do you know

what my intentions are?

i get disgusted with all the veiled racism i see and that gives me inflammatory intent?

your peanut butter sandwich analogy is woefully flawed.

because in the province of peanut butter sandwich eating, there isn't an agenda on the part of many people in this country to use peanut butter sandwiches as code to veil their racism.

[Doohickie]

112. My point, datasuspect,

Is that the logic Pithlet used is this:

Assertion: Activity "A" implies racism.

Response by person favoring activity "A": Saying activity "A" implies racism doesn't make it so. Additionally, by trying to link activity "A" to racism, the original assertion tries to defame activity "A" and anyone associated with it.

Answer to response: That's what all the racists say, therefore you are a racist.


This last statement is logically flawed in three ways. First of all, just because I may engage in an activity that a certain group may also engage in does not mean I am a part of that group. Secondly, there is still no further evidence linking activity "A" to racism, just another assertion. Thirdly, the claim that I cannot know the intent in linking activity "A" and racism is a crock. Racism is an inflammatory word in itself, and by linking activity "A" to it, and the activity to me, I am being called a racist.

So, you are saying Racism == official language == me, therefore
me == racist. But you never proved Racism == official language; it was only asserted without evidence.

[datasuspect]

114. i'm sorry

your exercise in logic is somewhat convoluted and you lost me, you might want to try simplifying your terms. define your terms simply and then assign variables to them and then make an attempt at symbolic logic.

i'm gonna try and parse it for you though when i get a minute.

you said: "Racism is an inflammatory word in itself"

??????

really?

i thought it was a fact of life and a very potent reality in this world.

how is it inflammatory to point this out?

could it be that by pointing it out, you can make people uncomfortable when you confront them with their own racism? does this really make racists uncomfortable? do they not want themselves highlighted?

and in my initial post, i wasn't referring to you specifically. i don't know why you thought i was. insofar as my thoughts are concerned, you do not figure prominently, if at all. this is a neutral statement - i don't even know you.

i was merely trying to understand myself why it seems that those who so vehemently and dogmatically get angry about foreigners not speaking english seem to be racist in their intent.

[Doohickie]

115. Okay... let's focus on the word "racism"

No one with a shread of decency wants to be called a racist. It carries a negative connotation. It is thrown around rather loosely as an insult, especially on political boards like this.

You say it is a fact of life, but even if it is, you would agree it undesireable, wouldn't you?

Now, the next part is where I think we start to disagree. The assertion was made that having an official language in the U.S. is intertwined with racism. While the two concepts may be related, they are not equivalent.

So, if you look at people who are racist, and who support an official language, you don't get 100% overlap. You could probably find some multi-lingual racists, and you could certainly find some people who support a single language that are not racist.

To be honest, I actually feel the opposite to be true. As long as an immigrant group cannot communicate with the mainstream, it is very difficult for them to advance socially or economically. Bilingual education with the aim of teaching immigrants English is a good thing, wouldn't you agree? If so, I think we are advocating the same thing- proficiency in the primary language of the land. I merely go the one step further of declaring English to be what, in fact, it is- that primary language.

I think the first contention arose when someone made the claim that if Hispanic immigrants are not learning English, it was the establishment's fault, that by racist means, they were excluding Latins from learning English. What I see around me speaks to a totally different truth. I see immigrants from other countries coming here, moving into my neighborhood (which happens to be *very* multi-ethnic), and their kids get about two years of ESL with a teacher that may not even speak their language. At they end of that two years, these kids have a functional grasp of English.

I see Latins who go to bilingual schools. My schoolteacher friend that I mentioned earlier, a Mexican American herself, says that this is what happens: They start out speaking Spanish early in the year, then she works them into speaking almost exclusively English. They leave for "vacation" for about a month at Christmas time, and when they gat back, they can't put two words of English together. So she starts back at square one. By May, they are back to speaking English. By the end of the summer, they have totally lost all their English skills again.

Is that the system's fault? Is the Man keeping them down? It sure looks to me like their own families are the cause. It sure looks like they are refusing to learn English.

I see two solutions for this: One is to adopt both English and Spanish as official languages and leave them be. But from what I see, this would only institutionalize Hispanics as a lower class with no encouragement to advance. Or we can put them on the same footing as other immigrant groups- with *transitional* help to get them up to speed (as opposed to permanently letting them do bilingual which pretty much ensures they will never master English). In order to do this, I think English would need to be the official language.

You may say that makes me a racist. Fine. Whatever. I think that makes me an advocate for immigrants in trying to give them the skills to function in America, as Americans.

[datasuspect]

116. well they are intertwined

but nothing is ever really equivalent, now is it? i'm not looking for absolutes. i realize i probably should have put a qualifier like "many" or "the majority" in my initial post. i will concede that i did not write precisely what i was thinking. mea culpa.

however, i haven't really heard a worthwhile argument that isn't steeped in some kind hatred or racism or xenophobia vis-a-vis the arguments of an official language proponent.

and yes, the "Man" is alive and well and still has his foot up many a brother's ass. no shit. open your eyes.

still, i admire your tenacity in argument and give you much credit for framing a cogent response to my poorly articulated argument.

nonetheless, i will never seek avenues to place blame on people who are largely decent, hard working, family-oriented, politically powerless people because they choose to speak spanish or because they are here illegally.

and your economic/advancement argument holds no water whatsoever.

look at radio formats, advertising, market segmentation in the banking/financial services industry and hispanics in this country are a growing economic power with much disposable income.

i've met mexican immigrants who own construction companies, garages, restaurants, car dealerships, etc. please don't patronize me or them by saying they need to learn english for their own good.

you can enjoy the fruits of this country's mainstream (read: $$$$$$) by having a passing knowledge of transactional english. buy/sell/how much/when/where/what time/etc.

your argument sounds suspiciously close to the rationalizations colonialists present for needing to chrisitianize the "savages."

divide

distract

conquer

[Doohickie]

117. Thank you for getting back to a reasonable tone.

Yes, one can enjoy the fruits of this country without English. I will grant you that.... However:

"nonetheless, i will never seek avenues to place blame on people who are largely decent, hard working, family-oriented, politically powerless people because they choose to speak spanish or because they are here illegally."

So, no matter what, simply because they are the "oppressed" group, you will never pin blame on them? Even if the blame is due?

"and your economic/advancement argument holds no water whatsoever."

I disagree with you. While I recognize there are successful Hispanics, there are many economic opportunities that one cannot take advantage of if one does not speak English. For instance, try to get a job as an engineer with GM if you don't speak English. Try even getting a college degree without English. It's gonna be pretty hard. Yes, there are ways to get ahead if you don't speak English, but not as many as if you do.

"look at radio formats, advertising, market segmentation in the banking/financial services industry and hispanics in this country are a growing economic power with much disposable income.

i've met mexican immigrants who own construction companies, garages, restaurants, car dealerships, etc. please don't patronize me or them by saying they need to learn english for their own good.

Okay. But do these immigrants speak English? I'll bet they do.

My family has Polish ancestry. Many were merchants. They spoke Polish, but also English. I lived in Dearborn, MI, for a while. We had an Arabic doctor who had patients that only spoke Arabic and he was able to talk to them in their own language. But he spoke English too.

Every immigrant group assimilates. Why should we expect anything different from Mexican immigrants? If you think our proximity to Mexico is the reason, please present your case. I have a relatively open mind.

But a lot of this is mere heresay and anecdote. I'm not sure I've ever heard a scholarly, factual comparison between the two sides of the "official languge" debate.

[datasuspect]

118. i don't think i was being unreasonable

please disabuse me if i'm wrong.

although i do know how to admit when i'm wrong. maybe this is what you are referring to.

as far as blaming people (again, look at my words), yes, you should place blame where blame is due. but you shouldn't go into it looking to blame somebody.

as far as being an engineer for GM - not everyone wants to be this or ought to be. is that a condition of success for you? conformity/compliance with the mainstream? what denominates success for you?

as far as assimilation is concerned, how different are mexicans from americans? have you ever been to mexico? or is just the language thing? or is it skin tone?

and mexican immigrants DO assimilate. but it depends on how you define assimilation. or do you just see balkanization where it doesn't exist or is the assimilation just not fast enough for you personally or not in accordance with your personal idea of assimilation?

please, i really would like to know.

and if this were a scholarly forum you would probably hear a scholarly, factual comparison; however, this is a discussion forum and hearsay, anecdote, opinion, and unsubstantiated claims are de rigeur.

[Doohickie]

122. datasuspect... I guess I didn't just mean you (wrt reasonable)

but this thread has gotten rather heated here & there.

Anyway... the "blaming" kind of started in the original post:

"official language supporters aren't honest to concede their own racism, so they project that onto the non-native born and impute malicious intentions on the people they hate."

Statements made in that sentence include:

1. Official language supporters are racist.
2. Official language supporters assume malicious intent of the non-native born.
3. Official language supporters hate immigrants.

While I'm sure you can find people that fit that profile, a mere admission that one wants an official language does not necessarily mean a person embraces any of those positions. You presume official language supporters are looking to blame somebody.

Secondly... the GM engineer statement: My point is that without a proficiency in English, several career paths, indeed, several educational options, are not available. That places limits on the career aspirations of immigrants. Even if you don't agree with my statement, do you understand what I am trying to say?

Assimilation: Here is what I am trying to come to grips with: Virtually every immigrant group assimilates into the American mainstream-- it's the whole idea of melting pot. Now I understand this isn't always a good thing. Sometimes I wish I could speak Polish like my forebears. Yet, if one wants to move here and make the U.S. a permanent condition, some level of adaptation should be expected on the immigrant's part, no? My Polish ancestors did not expect the government and culture to change to become like them; they changed to become Americans. It seems to me that Mexican immigrants are the one exception to this rule. Where other groups are expected to become American to some extent, America is being pressured to become more Hispanic. It isn't that I don't expect any Mexican influence on my culture, it's just that my perception is that virtually every immigrant group is simply expected to adopt some English and they all do. All except Hispanics.

I realize that older relatives will never learn the language; I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about in the schools, where kids of every immigrant group learn English fairly quickly except Hispanic kids, who become dependent, it seems, on bilingual education because many of them just don't master English.

So, in response to your question, I guess I would say it is just the language thing.

I don't usually crusade on this issue and it is not, in my opinion, a major issue our country needs to face right now. But if you ask me, I think we should have an official language. It's just how I feel. I see a lot of time and effort put into bilingual programs when our education dollars are already spread thin. I see that Hispanics kids seem to be the slowest to be able to function in English, while other immigrant groups pick it up more readily. These could be mere baseless impressions on my part, but when I talk to others who are involved with this system, these impressions seem to be born out.

I don't generally see anyone *preventing* Hispanics from learning English.

What more can I say? You've worn me out.

But if it came up on a referendum, I would vote for English as the official language of the U.S. and I don't think that makes me racist.

[m berst]

96. the "problem" has already been solved

It is stunning that this issue gets any debate whatsoever, especially among liberals.

We already have a system in place that ensures that we will be an English speaking nation. It is called our public school system. Ironically, the same people pushing for English language legislation also support legislation that destroys our public school system.

This is a "solution" looking for a problem, and the only way people think there is a problem is by imagining a "them" who is doing something wrong and who are no "like us" and who need to be straightened out. And I don't think people are envisioning white people when they imagine this "problem" either.

Anyway, argue for and support this English only idea if you like, but don't fancy yourself a liberal. The two are entirely incompatible. Now someone will start arguing THAT. Which is again, something that is incompatible with being a liberal. Liberals look at the bigger picture, put issues into a historical and political context, and listen and learn from each other. They don't argue a single issue in a vacuum and come up with fancy theoretical arguments that allow no dissent and are unsupported by any politcal theory or historical precedent.

The English only movement is reactionary. It is part of a racist agenda. Arguing in favor of it on some theoretical grounds is precisely what the right wingers want people to do.

Traditionally, liberals work through issues together, they don't snipe back and forth at each other with talking points and clever arguments trying to "win" arguments at each other's expense.

I am just telling you the way it used to be - back when we were a moral force in the country and won elections. If y'all want to play Crossfire and act like right wingers, be my guest.

[DrWeird]

97. There are more Latinos in the US than there are Quebecois in Canada.

So if you want to make English the official language you better be willing to make Spanish the other official language.

[Doohickie]

100. Interesting analogy but not necessarily

relevant to the topic. Just because Canada does it does not mean the U.S. should follow.

[Behind the Aegis]

102. English only

I don't agree that the "official language" debate is automatic racist code speak. There are some who are clearly are racist. The want ONLY English spoken. I don't have a problem with other languages being spoken here, I speak quite a few. However, in the US, the language of choice is English. When I go anywhere, it is my expectation that at least basic English will be spoken. It would be my expectation that anywhere I went in Poland the language spoken would be Polish. I also don't have an issue with offering services in other languages, but they should not supersede English.

Over 11 million persons in the US speak very poor or no English. This can be a problem.

I would not support a law that took away foreign language services or dismantled bi-lingual education. But, simply stating that English is the "official" language of the US is no more racist than saying Japanese is the "official" language of Japan.

[immoderate]

113. OK, suppose English is the official language. Then what?

Are there penalties for speaking other languages? Who decides what style of English is official? Can you be fined for mis-pronunciation, like "nucyaler"? Should we ban other languages being taught? Do we create a cabinet level Secretary of proper speech. What will we name the cities California, and Las Vegas?

What will laissez-faire economists do? What if I eat boullabaisse? Can I play chemin-de-fer? What would you call a schmuck, or a klutz? Can comedians continue to do schtick? Will you feel shadenfreude for them? I'll get ferklempte, and you'll be fahrfechtnugen? Let's have some savoir-faire. Should doctors and lawyers and scientists stop using Latin and Greek?

We are Americans. We don't need to officialize that which does not need officiating.

Language is culture. Let it flow.

--IMM

[murray hill farm]

119. Oh pleeeeeaaasssseee

i live in mexico..the official language is spanish...makes sense. why would i consider that racist? In the USA, the official language is English..and why would i consider that racist? It is not that u are not allowed to speak english in mexico or spanish in the USA..it is just the official language for doing business in a country. Dont we have more important "issues" to concern ourselves with here?