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Conservative pro-lifers ARE NOT PRO LIFE!

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booley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 09:48 AM
Original message
Conservative pro-lifers ARE NOT PRO LIFE!
and I think we should stop humoring them with that title.

They are pro-war. They are pro-poverty. They pro- ignorance. They are pro-irresponsibility. They are pro-bigotry. They are pro-hypocrasy. they are pro-callousness. They are pro-selfishness.

You can't be these things and be pro-life. To paraphrase this nun I heard on NOw, these people are not pro-Life, they are merely pro-birth.

Who doesn't kwow that abortion rates have gone up since Shrub came into office? Poverty leads to more abortions. lack of comprehensive sex ed leads to more STDs and abortions. Cutting social services leads to more rapes and incest and ..more abortions.

and outlawing abortion won't work any more now then it did before Roe v Wade. It will only lead to more DANGEROUS abortions. That bloody hanger image didn't just pop out from nothing.

So we need to call these hyppocrates what they are. PRO-DEATH. They don't give a crap about protecting life. They just think somebody should be born before they are killed.

We should no longer tolerate them giving themselves a title they do not deserve.

Sorry for the rant but I am getting so sick of these self rightouse, hypocrtitical sociopaths that call themselves "Conservative Christians"

They aren't even Christians.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
1. Agreed. Good rant.
Let's just call them pro-birthers.
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silverlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
2. Well said! (n/t)
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yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
3. On target
Rave on.
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kcwayne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
4. You forgot pro-Capital Punishment and pro-Nuke
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
5. "Pro-birth"
thats the only part of the process they support.

For example, they are:
anti-sex (god knows how you're supposed to get knocked up)

and after "birth":
anti-education
anti-equality
anti-opportunity
anti-healthcare
anti-peace
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Kber Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. Their concern for life begins at conception and ends at birth. nt
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Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
6. Anti-choice
My wife and I recently had his conversation. She asked, "How can they call themsleves 'pro-life' if they vote for war criminals?" I responded, "They are not 'pro-life' they are 'anti-choice'." I must admit, however, while canvassing for the campaign this fall, I did happen upon a number of people that were 'pro-life' consistently; they opposed abortion, the death penalty, the war, and were troubled by poverty rates. Not surprisingly, many of these folks told me they intended to sit the election out becasue they couldn't support either of the major party candidates.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
7. they are just "pro-birth"
regardless.
No worries about feeding, clothing, sheltering, providing clean air or water, education, safety from avaricious corporations or out of control administrations....
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fugue Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
8. That should become our motto!
"They just think you have to be born before you are killed."

Sorry I can't distill it into a sound byte; the brain isn't working. Can someone with a history in advertising please accomodate us? ^_^

Then put it on T-shirts and bumperstickers and EVERYTHING!
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
9. Republican women never have abortions?
I find that awfully hard to believe. These people live their lives drenched in hypocrisy.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
10. this was one of my first buttons.
ain't no charlatan like a religious charlatan.


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rndmprsn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
11. agreed...
Edited on Thu Nov-18-04 10:06 AM by rndmprsn
if you call yourself "pro-life" it has to be a thoughtful consistant stand on ALL issues...you can't pick and choose your core values, this seems to be lost on them.

anything less is in the realm of hypocrisy.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
12. they are pro-pregnancy-as-punishment
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goddess40 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
13. I'll go a step further - some are pro-death
Those that want the women to die instead of allow an abortion.

When some one 'brags and boasts' that they are better then me because they are pro-life I'm going to ask them if they are for this war, the death penalty and against health insurance for all. One yes makes them anti-choice or pro-birth but nothing more.

I still don't get that some will allow a women to have an abortion in the case of rape (incest is rape). Is it because only the male DNA that makes the 'baby' a person?
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Beer Snob-50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
14. great rant!
i feel that most of us on the pro-choice side are really the pro-lifers. We do believe in choice but if we had our druthers we wouldn't have an abortion. We are also against the death penalty, are for the war on poverty, for birth control, and against war for the sake of corporate greed.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
15. Political births. Raise them and love them and when they are 19 send
them to war for the corporations, then whether in or out of war service, send the female, father, and abortion assistant in an abortion situation to special abortion prisons set up by the new office of the Abortion Cabinet Secretary since all fetuses have become the property of the Government.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
16. Not just deaths from dangerous illegal abortions
But the rate of deaths that occured to mothers or infants in childbirth have been dramatically reduced. Before Aborion became widely available, a mother who was should not have had a child, due to problems with the child, or problems with the mother simply waited until birth and prayted for the best. The dramatic reduction of maternal death during childbirth of as a result of bleeding during late term miscarraige has almost totally been eliminated due to the fact that many pregnancies which are unadvisable have been terminated. There have been few improvements to the medical procedures, so very little of this reduction in childbirth mortality can be said to have been cuased by that factor.


On average, seven out of ten pregnancies will result in self termination (misscarriage) due to developmental problems with the fetus if there is no medical intervention.If the child begins to develop problems that would be extremely hazardous to the mother or to the life development of the child, mother nature does her thing and sponateously stops the pregnancy. In essence, modern medicine doe a great deal to undermine natural process by assising pregnancies that nature has decided are unsafe for the human race to procede.

On top of this there is of course the issue of poverty and other problems which are the causes of unwanted pregnancies. And the perpetuation of poverty by continuing unwanted pregnancies. A prime example of the horrors of elimination of abortion can be found in Romania. In order to reverse the effects of high birth rate in ethnic Turks, Nicolae Ceausescu made both birth control and abortion illegal in Romania during the last two years he was in office. Relative to the U.S. Romania has a tiny population. Something like eight million. In just two years, over 40,000 new borns were abandoned and places into horrible conditions in Romanian Orphanages. Aside from this, the lack of normal human contact in these orphanages have resulted in children with extreme psychologicaa and psychiatric problems. In the U.S. elimination of Abortion could be expected to resulty in similar numbers of abandoned children. And proportionally this would result in close to a million children a year becoming wards of the state. Or the state will then try to pass laws that make abandoning of new borns a crime as well, tout as they may adoption as an option, there are still more children in orphanages than there are people who are willing to adopt them. Of course the racist elements in this will become obvious. A a result, the states response to the orphanage p
The elimination of abortion will require Republicans to provide massive sums of money in order to provide state means of raising unwanted chuldren. Also the increase in maternal deaths will result in children without a parent, as a good many unwanted pregnancies occur in unmarried and single mothers. Of course, the pro-lifers will not be willing to have their taxes raised in order to pay for those children, as their main desire in ending abortion is an attempt to place a punitive value on sexual behavior that they beleive is "immoral" and an attempt to force their own religious beliefs about sexual behavior on other people. THeir claims about homosexual marraige being something that no society has protected may be warranted. Their feelings about sexual behavior in the unmarried has not such widespread support. IN fact, their ideas about life beginning at conception have literally no scientific suppport OR even support among many of the cultures around the world.


First of all, Democrats have to make it clear that any attempt to overturn Roe v. Wade must have attached to it economic measures to deal with the enormous numbers of abandoned childre, plus suppprts for the health needss of both child and mother through pregnancy and after.

SUch legislation will likely end up not being passed, as Republicans are all talk until the talk turns to THEM paying for it. Raising taxes on the rich must be amendments attached to any legislation designed to eliminate any aspect of abortion.
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meow2u3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. I've been trying to say this all along...
...only I've been shouted down as "anti-choice" and even a misogynist, even though I'm female and will fight to the death for women's equality...err, what's that saying? First, it's ridiculed. Next, it's violently opposed. Then it's accepted.

IN fact, their ideas about life beginning at conception have literally no scientific suppport OR even support among many of the cultures around the world.

There is scientific proof. It's known as having a unique genetic makeup: DNA. When dad's sperm and mom's egg unite, the resulting zygote has its own, unique pattern of DNA. That's what makes us all different. Consistent life advocates might want to couch the issue in terms of civil rights. Question is, is abortion discriminatory on the basis of gestational/birth age?
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Could be but jut because the potential for life is there
doe not mean that most of those abortions would not end up as mid-term to late term miscarraiges anyway.

Seven out of Ten pregnancies will ens up in spontaneous abortion at some time during the pregnancy is there is no medical intervention.

That is to say if ten women become pregnant and they do not see a doctor for the entire term of the pregnancy, seven out of ten will end in miscarraige at some stage of the pregnancy.

What has happened since Roe v Wade is that these statistics have vanished in the light of the many pregnancies that are stopped early in the cycle so that all those miscarriages which would have cooured normally have been averted.

Other health factors have dramatically gone down. One out of sic pregnancies result in eithre pre-eclampsia, or eclampsia, a condition that can kill and always results in permanent life threatening health problems for the mother, usually permanant high blood pressure, or heart valve damage. THe eleimination of these either during pregnancy or later as a result of the eclampsia have been totally ignired as a factor.

Right to lifers place these life threatening conditions in the category of 'abortions of conveninence"

Many of the Right to Lifers do not place equal value on the mothers right to life. Most of the anti-abortion churches refuse to allow the health of the mother to be a consideration in cases of abortion, but on the other hand demand that advanced medical technology to save the life of the fetus be applied to do so. The stance that the mothers life must be sacrificed for the unborn child, while the child life is not to be sacrificed to save the mother are two inconsistant positions regarding the sanctity of life. To insist that the most extreme medical measures be used to secure the life of the fetus, while denying the mother the most extreme of medical procedures to save the life of the mother(partial birth abortion) is also inconsistant.

I cna see a time when these nuts will hold a poor mother liable to murder if she does not get medical care she needs while pregnant because she cannot afford it, yet will deny the same mother access to the means to save her own life by abortion if this becomes medically necessary. Such positions are not right to life, but merely placing the life of one unborn person above the right to life of the one who already has been born.

While Right to lifers frequently bring up adoption and other methods as an alternative to abortion, there legislative attempts to overturn abortion NEVER contain even preliminary plans to establish the programs by which such adoptions will be made possible. They do not establish a budget for programs to provide financial support for those mothers who would have chosen abortion so that mother can obtain the best pre-natal and neo-natal care to ensure the health and safety of both the mother and the child is abortion is non available.

They do not provide for mothers who MUST quit work accoring to the instrutions of their doctors, to maintain their own health and the health of the unborn child.

They speak continually but the deaths of unborn children, but do nothing to address the vast number of pregnancies which if allowed to continue, wil just given the sinple statistics, result in life threatening miscarriages, or just simple miscarraiges if the mother cannot afford health care or eve begin to deal with the very large number of those likely mothers who have NO access to health care at all. To then create a heath care system for ONLY pregnant mothers and ONLY to address the care of the unborn itself becomes discriminatory. If you must create a universal heath care system oto make sure that the life of the fetus is protected, then you MUST provide free health care to everyone else who cannot afford it.

Which is the prime reason that the right to lifers avoid actually doing anything legislatively to back up the contention that adoption as an alternative to abortion. They cannot create a systems that protect the unborn without extending the same rights to others.

The pro-choice lobby must make this argumenent. Lack of proper medical care during pregnancy itself is life threatening, and if they insist onending abortion, they must come up with an alternative to protect the lives of both the mother and the child. If they do, then this becomoes discriminatory, and they must extend this right to everyone. If they do not, their position on abortion becomes tenous. If they extend the right to life to the fetus, they MUST extent the right to life to the mother. They must contend with the life threatening asprect of pregnancy that have pretty much been reduced to being negligible since Roe v. Wade. Medical technology iha advanced to thepoint where doctos can tell erly on whether a pregnancy is likely to fail later on in the pregnancy, and so fairly goo statistics about what it will cost the government to prevent these failures of life threatening conditions to the mother can easily be obtained. Facts are that such medical cost will easily run in the region of a a half a trillion dollar per year. THis without considereing additional costs to the educational system, and later medical care.

They must be reminded that if they are so anxious to preserve life, they must deal with the additional costs that such legislation will result in.

Fact are that the right to lifers goal is predominantly punative and based on a puritanical religious position that has no overal cultural support. The desire is that an unmarried person who becomes pregnant and dies bacause of it should die. That is the secret unspoken position of the "right to lifers"

Again, there is absolutely NO definition as to when life begins.

The unborn fetus may have potentiality of being a ddistinct human life, but has no actual human life. There are any number of factors that indicate that nature does not intend EVERY ferilized egg to become a living and breathing human.

In fact there are many pregnancies that are terminated becasue the while fertilzation has occured, and the zygote, with its unique "code" is simply not viable. The zygote hasnot attacjed to the uterine wall. Ther a literally hundred if not thousands of situations that occur after fertization in which doctors can tell early on that the pregnancy will not result in a living human. So simply stating that life begins when the egg is fertized is an interpretation, and not a fact. Which is why viabilty became such a large issue in making abortion legal. Not every fertilized egg will end u0p in a birth, and many of these which have zero possibility of birth will certainly end up in life threatening conditions toward the mother. An improperly implanted zygote may live in the womb for months yet eventually will die and in the process seriously effect the life of themother, and result in death if not terminated. Many cases of abortion occur in mothers who want the child, yet are told that the fetus in not viable, adn that the longer you wait to terminate, the more likely that the mothers heath will be endangered, and even her life endangered. These conditions happen modst frequently in the first pregnancies of very young women, or in the first pregnancies of women who wait until they are in their thirties or forties to have a child.

Yet abortions in these cases are lumped in with "abortions of convenience by the "right -to life" groups. If a por outcome or extremely life threatening condition has not occured yet, but dotors are fairly certain that they will occu, this is considered a convenience to those opposed to abortion. It is a rather sick way of defining "convenience" taking rights away from the mother, and giving too much to the unborn.
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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
17. Let's start calling them "Mommy killers"
They like to throw around the term "baby-killers".

They are "Mommy killers" and support forcing rape victims to bring their pregnancies to term. Many claim they want exceptions for rape and incest, but I have yet to hear one of them say how rape and incest will be determined. By a doctor? By a court of law? It's an impossible exception to have.
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fugue Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Well, I'd prefer a term that included all those they kill . . .
. . . including the babies that are born and then die because they have inadequate health care.

Maybe "family killers"? That's likely to push a few buttons.
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fryguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
19. and "compasionate conservatives" are neither
compasionate nor conservative....
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LiberalAndProud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
21. Anti-abortion is NOT pro-life! Pro-choice is NOT pro-abortion!
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kiki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
24. Use the phrase from www.whitehouse.org...
'Wanted until birth'.
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fob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
25. They "Love the Womb, Hate the Woman"
Or maybe it should be,

"Love the Womb, Hate the Wom(b)an"
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