Ted Rall cartoon says what DLC/Centrist types probably don't want to hear.

[JanMichael]

Thank you Ted!

[ConservativeDemocrat]

1. Centrists aren't attacking leftists; leftists are attacking centrists

I haven't seen any great movement by centrists and conservatives within the Democratic party to tell the left to compromise.

What I have seen - repeatedly in the D.U. in fact - is leftists promising to vote for Republicans if the party doesn't immediately shift far to the unelectable left.

John Kerry was just too right wing for you guys. So was Clinton. Apparently, you won't be satisfied until you get Kucinich and his "Department of Peace" to go down in flames in a national election, taking half the Democrats with them.

The funny part about you folks is that Rall's cartoon is the way it really is out there -- which is something you'd know if any of you actually canvassed. There really is a "homo-hating left". They're poor church goers who know they're getting screwed by the GOP, but are filled with religiously inspired fear and loathing of gays.

Now you can do one of two things in response to this. 1] You can revile them. This feels good, especially for the people who still lionize "Che". Unfortunately, it is a ticket to loosing permanently. Or 2] You can reach out to them. Repackage the same message in a nonthreatening manner. For instance, what's the difference between a "Civil Union" and "Marriage"? The NAME. That, and the fact that while a vast majority of people don't want Gays to get "married", a majority think it's perfectly fine for them to have a "civil union".

If we had taken that route, we could have enshrined the Civil Union concept into the nation. After 20 years, people would recognize it as not particularly dangerous, and eventually, we could have changed the name to be the same thing. But NO. You want IT ALL AND YOU WANT IT RIGHT NOW. And if you don't get it, you are taking your ball and going home.

And voting for the GOP out of spite.

Well, people, don't let the screen door hit you on the way out.

- C.D.

[bloom]

2. "leftists promising to vote for Republicans"

you must be reading different threads than I am.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

13. Yup...

To their credit, the mods are generally killing such posts as soon as they come up. It usually phrased as "Choosing between a Republican and Republican-Lite, I'll take Republican". I've responded to a few of them.

Then there's the ubiquitous "I'll stop being a Democrat if..." usually followed by some demand. These typically aren't killed, so I can give you a an example link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2719052


- C.D.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

29. I've never seen a post, or heard a "leftist" say he would vote repug.

And, the post you linked to doesn't say that either.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

46. Deleted posts are -- well, deleted

If I linked to a deleted post, it would say "Deleted".

Further, it's kind of hard to search for them, even when you have a star (which I have to get back).

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

50. Uh huh.

Funny how you are the only one who seems to have seen them.

[mrdmk]

64. Mr. ConservativeDemocrat must be getting his boards

confused.

The mods have never deleted a message that pro-ports to vote for somebody for a reason.

Must be wishful thinking on his part.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

79. You should read the guidelines of this board...

...sometime.

To quote: "We ban conservative disruptors who are opposed to the broad goals of this website. If you think overall that George W. Bush is doing a swell job, or if you wish to see Republicans win, ... you will likely be banned."

I can guarantee you that any: "I'm voting for the GOP because... hey, what the hell, the Democratic party leadership is so right wing I can't tell the difference anyway", will be Alerted and deleted. I can tell you that because I've seen those kinds of messages and seen them deleted.

Try posting one yourself if you don't believe me. But don't blame me if you get banned.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

p.s. Like Josh Micah Marshall, I am a small 'c', conservative. Not a GOP neocon, which the rules refer to.

[paulk]

99. you could make the point

that voting for a third party, which is another of the favorite threats thrown around here, amounts to the same thing (as voting for a Republican).

[itzamirakul]

3. If you can win by kissing butt then...

count me out!

But seriously, what do you think of splitting the black vote. Let's send half of the black vote to the Republicans...then maybe you centrists could attract some of the more conservative right wingers, the white supremacists, that Bush attracted this time. That way, the centrists could "be more like them."

[okieinpain]

19. thanks, so it's our fault white racist don't vote dem. thanks a lot.

[itzamirakul]

62. Tonue in cheek...

I was merely making a suggestion for centrists to help them become more like the Republicans that they admire so much and want to imitate. It is a known fact that Bush campaigned heavily in the racist districts of central Ohio, Georgia and in the other red states. These are some of the people that the centrists want to attract into the Democratic Party. So, why not split the black vote so that it will not pay the racists to belong to either party based on racism.

FYI: I happen to be very happily black and very, very Progressive. It is a shame that I have to identify my race on this topic, but to prevent further fingerpointing and accusations, I will do so.

I am sick and tired of the centrist point of view that has lost us the past three elections.I can no longer just sit by and support the DNC and their ilk just because I am a "good democrat."

May I suggest that you visit www.pdamerica.org so that you can see what the progressive platform is? It might be to your liking.

[Demit]

8. Apparently this group of Dems threatening to vote for Republicans...

all up and left DU before I came about 6 months ago. The John Kerry haters, the Clinton haters, these folks who vote for the GOP out of spite...wonder where they went, those "Che-lionizers"?

Ah, but please--tell us more about those churchgoing "homo-haters" who we are so bad for reviling. They sound like wonderful people.

[mike_c]

89. ConservativeDemocrat exemplifies the delusion that votes...

...for a candidate to the LEFT of the democrat candidate, e.g. for the Green Party's candidate David Cobb, are transmorgified in the ballot switcheroo machine into-- gasp!-- votes for THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE! Memo to CD: I did not vote for John Kerry. Neither did I vote for George Bush.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

94. Ok. So you're only half as bad. [eom]

[porphyrian]

11. The DLC strategy has been so successful in the last three elections...

What we want is for you to stop driving. You're wrong, incompetent, and need to step down.

[Lorien]

68. Amen

and on what planet are "leftists" (Dems) threatening to vote for repugs?

Never seen it from anyone here, except freeper trolls....

[bvar22]

12. You said:

"you won't be satisfied until you get Kucinich and his "Department of Peace" to go down in flames in a national election, taking half the Democrats with them."

What's the difference. The DLC went down in flames taking us with it running on a Republican Platform.
I would rather go down in flames supporting a Democratic Platform! At least I would sleep better!

[ConservativeDemocrat]

15. Kerry wasn't DLC

And you know it.

- C.D.

[bvar22]

21. The Democratic Platform WAS WRITTEN by...

..the DLC, and enshrined all the wonderful DLC pro-corporate, anti-labor policies that the DLC represents. These were the issues Kerry was forced to run on.

and you know it!

[K-W]

23. More people should be pointing fingers at the platform

it was utterly unimpressive.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. You mean "more people" ....like Kerry?

Who presumably had some say in what went into the platform.

[proud_Kucitizen]

102. Pleeze and I guess

that's because Bush told you so.

Just because Bush says he is the most liberal senator doesn't make it so. If he is we are in big trouble.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

14. Are you fucking kidding me?!?!

"I haven't seen any great movement by centrists and conservatives within the Democratic party to tell the left to compromise."

That avatar you have there, the DLC -- what the heck is that organization about except telling the left to compromise?!?!?!

Good god, the Rove-Orwellian speak is infesting the Democrats now...


:scared:

[K-W]

17. Stop confusing compromise and surrender.

Compromise is the fundemental principle behind our government, it is good, and the Democrats should and must do it, especially as the minority party, they can either compromise or quit really. They cant do anything else. You have to win a pretty big majority before you can stop compromising.

The problem with the DLC is not the compromising it is that they surrender our parties strongest issue, the economy, to the republicans for no good reason at all and advise surrender in the face of almost any issue. It is a bad strategy it is a dangerous and immoral strategy.

You cant compromise unless you disagree. Remember that.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

20. I'm sorry, but...

there are some issues/areas where you draw the line and compromise is simply not possible.

The DLC doesn't seem to get that.

[K-W]

22. sorry but your attitude is anti-democratic

Once you start putting yourself above compromising with your fellow citizens you are just as much an enemy of democracy as the right wingers who do the same thing.

If you want ideological purity, this is the wrong form of government for you.

[bvar22]

30. BS.

More DLC Newspeak.

There are MANY issues that SHOULD NEVER BE COMPROMISED!!!
Some of them are written into the Constitution, and some are written in on my soul!

If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything!

[K-W]

34. That just isnt democracy,

which is fine. Democracy has its problems, but dont flame me because you dont want to aknowledge the conflict between the concept that some things are absolute and the concept that everything should be determined by the will of the people.

That is exactly what you are saying, that regardless of what the people think, some things should just be. That is quite obviously anti-democratic.

Our constititution is an amendable human invention, it is not absolute and was never meant to be.

Oh, written on your soul. Just like it is written on some people's souls that abortion is evil? You are no better than a right winger who puts thier moral tableau above the process of compromise that is supposed to feul our government.

There is nothing wrong with your opinion, just understand the consequences of it.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

47. Talk to me about compromise...

How much do you compromise on the first amendment?

How much do you compromise on whether a woman has a right to maintain control over her own body?

How much do you compromise on maintaining a secular society instead of a theology?

How much do you compromise on basic civil rights?

We are already experiencing the problems associated with too much compromise.

I maintain there are times to compromise and times when the line MUST be drawn. If that makes me an "enemy of democracy", so fucking be it.

[K-W]

48. Im not attacking you.

It is just a simple fact that it is anti-democratic to say that some issues are above revue by the will of the people.

I am not saying you are wrong. Just showing the conflict between the idea of democracy and ideological purity.

that is all. I am not saying anything besides that. Just trying to point out that if people refuse to compromise on issues of importance, our system doesnt work and that is a problem. Our system relies on the ability of reprsentative democracy to create a government of compromise.

[Selwynn]

74. You are implying that human rights aren't natural - that they are given

You are implying that our goverment graciously chose to benevolently GIVE us certain rights, and that these rights can be ethically reviewed or even overturned by some group's will - majority or otherwise.

I believe that goverments don't "grant" basic human rights -- they properly acknowledge and recognized RIGHTS that we inately have. Governments that properly recognize these rights are just (at least in that regard.) Those that do not are unjust.

So I can't agree that all things are negotiable by popular will of the people, not if we care about a just society at all. We don't live in a popular democracy anyway, we live in a limited democracy. The founding fathers believed in certain universal truths that they considered to be self-evident, and not up for negotiation or debate.

The number of things that are core values, natural law, ethical foundational principles or WHATEVER you want to call them may be FEW, but they certainly do exist.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

49. Talk to me about compromise....

How much do you compromise on the first amendment?

How much do you compromise on whether a woman has a right to maintain control over her own body?

How much do you compromise on maintaining a secular society instead of a theology?

How much do you compromise on basic civil rights?

We are already experiencing the problems associated with too much compromise.

I maintain there are times to compromise and times when the line MUST be drawn. If that makes me an "enemy of democracy", so fucking be it.

[K-W]

51. The problem isnt compromise, it is surrender.

Surrender is not compromise. The DLC just saying that the repulicans are right on the economy is not a compromise, it is a surrender.

Compromises are supposed to provide both sides with something.

[mrdmk]

69. K-W you are correct, there must be discussion in our society

The Bush Administration is not capable of discussion, just wedge issue taking-points and 9-11 patriotic slurs. Others are also correct that there is no need to sacrifice our rights as citizens, there should be no compromise on this issue. There is also these asshole wars we are involved in, the discussion needs to be how to permanently fix our errors, not erroneously state how well things are going!

[K-W]

52. Dupe

ignore

[Quill Pen]

76. You betcherass I'm above compromising.

>>>Once you start putting yourself above compromising with your fellow citizens you are...an enemy of democracy...<<<

You're so right. Those black folks in the South in the '60's should have compromised. That's why they got firehoses turned on them -- because they were enemies of democracy! I mean, really, those kids in Little Rock would have been just fine by compromising and going to their own school, but they had to be all militant 'n' sh*t, and that's why the National Guard had to be called out...tsk...

The Declaration of Independence says "all men," not "all straight men" or "all non-Arabic men" or "all men with money." If TJ didn't feel compromise was necessary, why should I?

Like it or not, Progressives are responsible for most of the advancements that make life in America livable, enviable and free: labor laws; desegregation; safe food, water and medicine; birth control; safe automobiles and consumer products; rights to redress of grievances; protected parks and wilderness areas; etc., etc. The men and women who fought for these prizes were not known for making coy, effete requests of the status quo. When something's wrong, it's wrong.

[porphyrian]

78. Amen. - n/t

[porphyrian]

24. Right on.

The DLC is the only one compromising. The republicans aren't.

[K-W]

27. Thats just false.

The republicans compromise all the time. They have a majority, so they dont have to compromise nearly as much as the democrats, but that is how the system works. If the democrats had a majority they would get to call the shots.

But the republicans still do compromise. The democrats have some leverage in the senate.

Politics is compromise. Without compromise, we might as well just arm ourselves and fight a civil war and implant a liberal ideocracy.

[porphyrian]

28. They only compromise on what they don't really care about.

That's not compromise, it's playing us for idiots. The DLC ideology has failed in the last three major elections. How many more times do you intend to cause the Democratic party to fail?

[K-W]

35. More false statements.

They do compromise on things they care about, but because they have a sizeable majority, they dont have to compromise too much. That is true, but if they were in our position they would be compromising up a storm. This is simply how our government works.

I am not DLC, so im not sure why you are you accusing me of anything. The DLC is dead wrong and will, if given the chance, destroy this party.

I just dont like seeing democrats echoing the attitude of the far right that it is "my way or the highway"

The entire point of our government is that people often do not agree about things, so for the government to act a certain number of people have to agree. This means there must be consensus, domination, or compromise.

Until the Democrats have a domininating majority, compromise and agreement are the only options.

Compromise is the right choice. the DLC pushes for somethign more resembling consensus where the dem party moves in line with the republicans on some issues.

[porphyrian]

40. Not "my way or the highway," yet compromise is the only way.

Preach on, hypocrite.

[K-W]

44. that isnt even close to what I said

In a democracy or representative democracy you have options
1. Consensus - everyone basically agrees
2. Domination - one group has enough mass to make policy without the rest
3. Compromise - both groups have to reach a mutual agreement to make policy

you have another option, which is to not use a democratic process

I am not saying compromise is the only option, it is simply the only option other than agreement(thus creating a consesnsus) available to the left if it wants to continue to participate in our system of government.

[porphyrian]

54. You are making the false assumption...

...that the republicans are also continuing to participate in our system of government.

[K-W]

56. I never made that assumption at all.

Although it is true. They are participating in it, they are also subverting it and making it much less democratic.

My point is simple. Compromise is not, by itself wrong. It is fundementally neccessary for a democratic process. I am not saying that the system is working now. Simply that the problem isnt compromise, the problem is the republicans cheating. We cant throw the baby out with the bathwater and villianize the act of compromising because of the particular circumstances crated by the conservative movement.

[porphyrian]

77. Compromise requires both parties' participation equally...

...in order to work. The republicans are not interested in compromising fairly, thus pursuing compromise with the republicans is a losing exchange. The act of compromise itself, as a diplomatic tool, is not right or wrong, merely an option.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

25. It's ABOUT having the RIGHT policies

The country works best when it neither coddles plutocrats (like the GOP does) nor wages war against businesses (like the Greens and ultra-liberal Democrats do), but instead takes a neutral stance.

Show me a place where there has been any kind of critique offered by people from the DLC saying that the Democrats were too liberal this last election. You won't find any - outside of Zell "Benedict Arnold" Miller, the quintessential DINO. We backed Kerry, even when he took positions we knew were going to be a hard sell.

Now, though, the DLC is being attacked by the left because we apparently don't back sufficiently unelectable candidates. And for being pragmatists in terms of how to move the country, you insult me as being "Rove-Orewllian".

- C.D. A Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[K-W]

31. You cant stand still on a moving train.

You are making mistaking the current center of mainstream political discourse with some kind of neutrality.

There is nothing in the slightest bit neutral about the DLC platform, so please dont try to wrap yourself in a cloak of moderation.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

37. Well of course...

Summarized, the three views are:

Republican: Crony-capitalism, corporate welfare
Green: Anti-development, politicized economics, overregulation
DLC/Dem: Pro-infrastructure, safety net, no "big government"

The DLC is TO THE LEFT of the American center. But we are not for our positions merely for the sake of compromise. We're for them because they're the right ones for the country.

Please try to understand that. Running an economy is like piloting a ship through a canal: it goes a lot better if you don't steer too far to the right or the left.

- C.D. A Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[K-W]

42. Stop trying to defend your position by pretending moderation.

The DLC plan is not the middle of the road, it is not moderate. The DLC has piggybacked the conservaatives. At the same time the conservatives were convincing america that they represented a balance to the left, they were also convincing america that the center was much further right than it actually is.

How exactly is an almost fully pro-corporate platform in the middle of the canal?

[ConservativeDemocrat]

58. I don't think you actually know what the DLC stands for...

Why don't you take a look before you start saying what we stand for, ok?

Here's a link right off the DLC's front page: Idea of the Week: Reform Insurgency

Just in case, you're too lazy to read the whole thing, let me except some things out of out a few sections...

Political Reform
We need open primaries to enfranchise independents and break the grip of organized special interests on the nominating process and the parties. And yes, we need another and more effective round of campaign finance reform and ethics reform to break the toxic cycle that lets people like Tom DeLay hustle lobbyists for campaign cash and even jobs for Republicans in exchange for access to the legislative process.

Budget Reform
It's time for Democrats to aggressively champion budget reforms, including a restoration of budget controls like spending caps and pay-as-you-go. But Democrats should go further and demand an assault on corporate welfare in the tax code and federal programs...

Social Insurance Reform
Democrats must reject Bush's phony privatization panacea, but they need more than a "Just Say No" approach to Social Security and entitlement reform in general. Democrats need to develop progressive plans to modernize our social insurance system so that they can defend the living standards of today's workers while honoring our commitment to tomorrow's retirees.

and it concludes with...

But whether or not it produces legislative victories in Congress, we believe Democrats need to embrace the "outsider" status to which they have been consigned, and treat it as an opportunity to get on the offensive again as true progressives. (*)

(*) Emphasis in original document.


Now if you call that an "almost fully pro-corporate platform", you have a right to your opinion. And I have the right to think you're flat out wrong.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[K-W]

60. And that has always been thier platform?

Im glad to see some of things on that page. I dont have time to read it all right now, I will try to remember to check it out later.

The DLC's record isnt quite as progressive as that page, but hey, cheers to them for becoming more progressive.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

63. I'm sure you'll find something you don't like...

...if you try.

The DLC is firmly Democratic, but it isn't leftist. Worse, you'll often catch them talking like grown ups. For instance, they refer to our opposition as Republicans, not "Repugs". The DLC does not seek to insult Americans they disagree with, but instead persuade them that they're making a mistake. Sometimes, this even involves reaching across the isle to moderates in the other party, as evidence by this passage in the same article:

It's even possible that a reform agenda could produce unexpected alliances with those Republicans -- including moderates marginalized by the conservative ascendancy in the GOP, and "deficit hawks" who are increasingly alarmed by the abandonment of the age-old Republican commitment to fiscal responsibility -- who no longer believe that party loyalty demands pretending that everything's peachy in Washington.

Now if you hate the idea of Republicans and Democrats ever appearing together in a joint press conference, then by all means, consider the DLC your enemy. And I'll keep trying to persuade you that you're making a mistake.

- C.D.

[Selwynn]

71. Let's return to reality

"worse, you'll often catch them talking like grown ups. For instance, they refer to our opposition as Republicans, not "Repugs".

Actually, you have no idea how they speak when they are writing anonymously on an Internet forum. And neither do you have examples of progressives in the public spotlight calling people "repugs" or whatever. On other words, your comparison is flawed. Many progressives believe that we must be respectful and persuasive, and many Centrists Democrats have been caught being rude or insulting at some point in time. Neither side is either/or.

I have no problem with Democrats and Republicans standing together in a joint press conference, as long as what they are announcing is morally right, socially just, and honorable. What I do reject are join press conferences to announce how the democratic party has continued to shift further and further to the right, and makes an announcement that fundamentally betrays the core values of traditional liberalism, which are appropriate and just.

Sel

[ConservativeDemocrat]

75. OK fine - what "core values" has the DLC "betrayed"?

Go on - be specific. And back your assertions with facts.

The only thing I can think of is Clinton (the DLC chair) voting for the Welfare Reform compromise, telling ADFC recipients that after a certain point, able bodied people have a responsibility to get a job.

What's the very next thing he did? He told corporate America that now we've told people to get a job - it's your responsibility to actually give them one. He shamed them into employing more of the poor. He also used the same welfare reform to push child care for the poor as well.

All good things. And all things that would not have been possible without some principled working with the GOP. Not surrender - persuasion.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Selwynn]

80. Why does it matter - there is nothing I can possibly say that will

...even remotely come close to changing any aspect of your thinking?

I oppose Clinton's corporate policies, almost wholesale.
I opposed the NAFTA as it was implemented
I opposed Welfare Reform as it was presented
I opposed the signing of the DOMA
I opposed the deregulation moves, specifically telecommunication
I opposed Clinton's weak, insulting "compromise" stance on gays and the military
I oppose being in bed with the IMF and World Bank and the way that Globalization is taking shape (i.e., I have no problem with the reality of entering an age of larger global community. I have a very big problem when it is the political philosophy of neo-liberalism which drives the industrialized west into exploitative dehumanizing relationships with weaker countries.)
I oppose the centrists position on the gay marriage issue, though I haven't seen the DLC's statement on this, any position short of full throated support for equal treatment and rights for gay and lesbian Americans is unacceptable to me.
I oppose the consistent and long standing history of being in bed with Big Business, adopting a new kind of "trickle down" theory to economics.
I oppose the weakening of Labor Unions which "conservative" democrats has both passively allowed and actively supported via its positions on corporate law.

Actually.. I'm tired of writing this. This is only the surface. There is no reason for me to go further. I couldn't care less if you argue back and attempt to rebut these points, which you will because we fundamentally disagree.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

90. You're right. You won't get me to believe Clinton was bad...

...for the workers of this nation. Not with the jobs he created. Not with the rising standard of living. Not with the education and the high value-added economy he created. Not with his ability to work with businessmen and cajole them into doing socially conscious projects that helped everyone.

I would even argue that he had a large part in helping economies worldwide grow significantly, helping billions of people to get jobs that - while not quite First World Standard - were a good first start.

But this is all wasted space anyway. You stated elsewhere in this thread that you've decided to ignore people you can't counter. So I guess I get the last word! :P Nyaah! :P

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Selwynn]

67. I know the *RECORD* VERY well.

I also used to recieve the "New" Democrat newsletter every day -- until I started reading it and consistently found that their practical response to each and every political issue reflect stance that stood fundamentally opposed to what I believe to be right, to the great history or just traditional liberalism, and to basic human decency.

-Sel, Still waiting for a lot of people touting the name to actually join the Reality Based Community

[sandnsea]

45. Nobody is waging war against business

The problem with centrist types is that they've bought into the Reaganism lie that there are Democrats waging war on business. It's a flat out lie and always has been. There is a simple truth, this world cannot survive with an economy based on gluttony. It will not work. Outside a few total socialists, that is what most of the people on the left see. The corporate structure we have right now is destructive; to people, the environment, world harmony. Read some RFK, Jr., maybe you'll get it then. It isn't a war against business, it's a war for our survival as a people. Business is going to have to start looking at the real cost the people are either suffering under or having to pay for through their tax dollars or personal income. They are making profits while the people are picking up alot of the tab.

[Selwynn]

82. EXCELLENT! (nt)

[ConservativeDemocrat]

92. But you admit that you still see it as a war...

When you say: "It isn't a war against business, it's a war for our survival as a people." You still see it as war.

Wars have sides. Our side (good) - their side (bad). Now, I'll accept that as far as the warmongering GOP neocon right is concerned. I agree with the distinguished Colin Powell's appellation of those people: F**king CRAZIES.

But entrepreneurs are NOT some sort of enemy. The vast majority aren't GOP-oriented neo-fascist crony capitalists. They're just people trying to invent products, build markets, make positions so they can grow their business. They can be talked to. Most can be shown how their best long term interests are helped by stable governments and societies, even if it involves a little more money from their pocket. That's what Clinton, head of the DLC, did. And it worked. I hope you haven't forgotten that.

Of course, they will become and enemy if you try to make them one. And as enemies, they are very powerful politically. So my message to you is this. Don't make the same mistake Bush made with Iraq. Don't attack innocent (or not always completely innocent) bystanders. Hit only at the people who abuse the system.


- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[sandnsea]

53. Don't help the right

It's a flat out lie that Democrats are waging war on business and always has been. Why do Democrats always help the right, all Democrats, in one way or another. There is a simple truth, this world cannot survive with an economy based on gluttony. It will not work. Outside a few total socialists, that is what most of the people on the left see. The corporate structure we have right now is destructive; to people, the environment, world harmony. Read some RFK, Jr., maybe you'll get it then. It isn't a war against business, it's a war for our survival as a people. Business is going to have to start looking at the real cost the people are either suffering under or having to pay for through their tax dollars or personal income. They are making profits while the people are picking up alot of the tab. We can't keep sticking our heads in the sand and pretending we can create a global economy based on rampant consumerism.

[porphyrian]

55. "It's ABOUT having the RIGHT policies"

How about some fucking LEFT policies, buddy?

[Lorien]

70. They aren't democrats

they're elephants in donkey clothing.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

88. I think ConservativeDemocrat's username is only half right...

Good god, the Rove-Orwellian speak is infesting the Democrats now...

(title of post edited)

[Forkboy]

96. Yep

:thumbsup:

[ConservativeDemocrat]

97. You're probably right.

I'm not really all that Conservative. At least not by the modern big-government corrupt crony-capitalist definition of the word.

But I'm afraid if I changed my name to DLCDemocrat.. that'd be, well, too controversial :P

- C.D.

[DrWeird]

16. Interesting.

Considering in that other thread you were defending war crimes.

Sounds like a compromise with republicans to me.

[Thtwudbeme]

26. That would be the point of the cartoon too.

You've made a great point, I wonder why you've been ignored?

I also wonder what sort of principles we're being feed by the Democratic Right...

[ConservativeDemocrat]

87. Not exactly.

It's actually an attack on Republicans.

You see, if you go out and say "The GOP got us into an unwinnable war in Iraq, and our troops are being killed for no reason", many people will strongly consider your words, and you can eventually get them to become Democrats. If, however, you conspicuously ignore war crimes committed by Iraqi insurgents, but then suddenly go into full throated assault on a U.S. soldier, claiming he was a war criminal when he was not, then you tend to drive Americans into the Republican camp.

Now admittedly, the kinds of Democrats you make by these conversions may not be your kind of ideologically pure Democrats, but still, they're a hell of a lot better than Republicans.

I, for instance, would bet that in terms of overall issues, we probably agree more than we disagree. But where you see ideological purity, I see a Republican wedge issue.

But there is no use in pretending we agree completely. We obviously don't. I (and the majority of Americans) will never believe, like Selwynn does, that Clinton's economic policies were somehow bad. Given the amazing results he got in terms of jobs and raised standards of living in the U.S. (and, I'd argue, worldwide), it flies in the face of facts and reason.

- C.D.

[Cat Atomic]

36. "Winning Strategies of the DLC" aka... "The World's Shortest Book"

What universe are you living in, by the way? We're hearing nothing BUT centrists telling the left that we need to be more Republican to win. You guys keep saying that, and you keep losing.

It's not just about "civil unions" vs. "gay marriage", either- and you know it. It's about these centrist anti-labor, positions that DO NOT impress the left.

We KNOW your ideas lose. It's time to try something new.

[Selwynn]

66. As well it should be.

I tend to resist people our groups who represent everything I fundamentally oppose to the core of my being. And I make no apology for that.

I'm sorry you don't like the climate of DU. Perhaps you would feel much more comfortable on a moderate republican discussion forum where your ideas would be welcomed with open arms. Conservative Democrat is an oxymoronic term. I can't "join hands" with people who hold political ideas and values which I completely oppose. It's nothing personal. It's just not possible.

But hey, you have yourself a super day! :)
Sel

[St. Jarvitude]

85. Nobody here has said they will vote for the GOP if the Dems don't reform

I think you must be putting several threads together in your head and having it come out of your mouth (your fingers, whatever) as one. Like this:

INPUT

Has Anybody Here Ever Pulled the Republican Lever?

If one Democrat votes for the New Freedom Initative, I am no longer a dem!

OUTPUT

Those dirty are gonna leave the Democratic Party and join the GOP!

I'm almost literally addicted to DU, and I haven't seen one thread where anybody has said they will switch to the GOP if the Dems don't move to the left. The mods aren't fast enough - I spot most of the disruptor posts before they are removed. And you know what? Anyone who says they will vote GOP (not Green, etc) if the Dems don't move further to the left is just that: a disruptor.

As to your point about people thinking John Kerry is too "right wing"... I would say that many people think that John Kerry is just not left wing enough, not "right wing". To marginalize the meaning of the phrase "right wing" by calling John Kerry that is unbelievable - the right wing stands for hate, social injustice, class division, and senseless war.

[NightOwwl]

93. dup

[NightOwwl]

95. You know what gives these posters away?

Besides the attacks and vitriol?

"You guys" "you people"

This is about the 10th post I've seen today with the same terminology, and it is fucking annoying and insulting.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

98. You try reading a message board...

...in which just about every post is an attack on your moderate position.

I usually don't respond. I usually don't have time. But today, I decided to present the other side of the story.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[moderate_hero]

4. Rall does it again!

This guy consistently knows what I'm thinking! Although the right went nuts over it, I felt it was important for someone to take the stand that heroes are not the ones who have died fighting Shrub's war. True heroes are the ones who stood up to it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

5. Rall has a knack for making the "moderates" fume.

The DLC apologists will be lining up to scream about "Republican talking points..", "electability", "party unity", and the usual drivel to justify moving to the right.

[RetroLounge]

6. Careful, you'll make the DLC pseudo-wingers all pissy

RL

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Thtwudbeme]

33. I was a paramedic for 10 years

nt

no...no, there is going to be some text:

You moron.

Stephanie

[ConservativeDemocrat]

43. So?

That was your job. You got paid for that.

I am talking about being a Democratic volunteer. Someone who actually makes a difference in elections.

I live in a swing district. GOP registrations are 20% higher than ours are. Still, our county went solidly blue because of the tens of thousands of doors we knocked on over the summer: Democratic, Independent, and Republican. I can't even count the lost weekends.

Let me tell you something. You learn a lot by doing that.

When you take your smarmy little "You moron" ass down to your local County Party, get yourself elected as a Precinct Committee Person, and put in one tenth the effort I have in actually changing people's minds, then I'll respect you.

But not until then.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Kathy in Cambridge]

65. I do ALL of that: volunteer, regrstered voters, election protection,

canvassed, etc. And I agree with Stephanie. You're way off base.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

84. Well good.

I respect you for the work you've done.

I also can't help but notice that you, unlike Stephanie, decided to say you disagreed with me, instead of simply calling names.

Now if you want to tell me how you think I'm "off base", I'm more than happy to listen.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Forkboy]

38. Reality Based Community

Democrats keep losing...how's that for reality?

[sunnystarr]

86. Dems don't lose elections ...

we let the right wing steal them!!

[Forkboy]

91. heh....that's for a different thread

Welcome to DU :hi:

[sunnystarr]

101. Thanks for the welcome :)

To me it's the only issue in this election and I laugh at the hand wringing about where the Dems went wrong and the finger pointing at this faction or that one. The media is getting a big blast out of it and I sit and scream at the TV ... FRAUD...STOLEN AGAIN lol

I just can't believe that so many people including the media aren't all up in arms over it when it's our government, our democracy, our country that's at stake. Our soldiers are dying and we can't get enough people upset to even demonstrate. Maybe we as a country don't deserve the democracy so many died for.

I received an email from Kerry today that I'm sure everyone also received.

First he says "Regardless of the outcome of this election, once all the votes are counted -- and they will be counted -- we will continue to challenge this administration. This is not a time for Democrats to retreat and accommodate extremists on critical principles -- it is a time to stand firm." Leading one to believe that he's still planning on fighting this fraudulent election.

Then continues that it's business as usual and what he'll do as a Senator in the Bush administration.

I'm soooo frustrated that while so many are looking to expose this election for what it was, there isn't one Dem leader standing up and taking charge. It would be nice if either the campaign or the DNC finance this effort with the donations we made for that purpose.

Ughhh sorry to end with such a downer. I get so emotional over this.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

61. I think you will find that the "left" DUers were right there

supporting Kerry during the recent campaign.

Literally thousands, including all the leftists I know, turned out in MInnesota.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Khephra]

9. Rall's 100% on target.

Why is it, that after 3 lost elections, the centrists & right-leaning Democrats keep on getting more and more power and are listened to as if they were prophets--when each election that we've listened to them we've lost?!?

Clinton was Clinton. The DLC is a evolutionary dead-end for the party without Clinton.

[Beacho]

10. I haven't seen any great movement by centrists and conservatives ...

"I haven't seen any great movement by centrists and conservatives within the Democratic party to tell the left to compromise."


That's because it's already happened and it's a done deal, and we've been losing elections ever since, save Bubba.


Guess 1-5 ain't bad, huh?

[jonnyblitz]

18. I used to read him a bazillion years ago in "Maximumrocknroll"

Its interesting to see him in MSM. He is one of my favorites. :thumbsup:

[Forkboy]

39. There's a blast from the past

MRR was a good zine until they became "Punker Than Thou" and stopped reviewing anything that wasn't the most basic of basic punk.

[geek tragedy]

57. What an ignorant ass.

Voters are human beings, not cartoon figures and stereotypes.

There are people that mistrust authority and believe that personal liberty includes the right to bear arms.

There are Catholics who believe in protecting life, which includes not only abortion but also protecting the environment, opposing the death penalty and war, and ending poverty.

And "warmongering" is an empty term unless it is defined. 90% of Americans supported the war in Afghanistan, which Psycho Ted considered warmongering. He even bitched because we were trying to kill bin Laden.

I say this: If you want the Democrats to lose every election from now on, support people like Ted Rall.

[Blue_Tires]

59. great toon n/t

[Selwynn]

72. This thread is helping me figure out who goes on my ignore list.

So, thank you for that.

I am not interested in listening to right wing politics wrapped in the name "democrat" anymore than I am interested in listening to religious dominionism and fundamentalist extremism in the name of Christianity.

Religious Dominionists would use the exact same talking points that DLC apologists are using in this thread to justify and defend their coopting of the term Christianity to other Christians. I'm not buying that bill of goods.

[JanMichael]

73. You and me both.

It's not like I expect for them to identify themselves, I just liked the toon, but it's a nice unintended outcome.

[muse]

100. Coming on the heels of the terrific centrist speech Clinton delivered at

his library opening, I find this cartoon to be silly at best and ignorant in the extreme.