In medicine, it is a well known fact that most illnesses are caused by

[CoffeeAnnan]

doctors.When people stop visiting doctors, they tend to get better.In a similar vein, I propose that we shut down the Defense Department for
a period of say three months and lay off everybody.I guarantee that
wars will mysteriously cease,our deficits will start coming down and our young men will be making love to the girls instead of dying in wars.

[ObaMania]

1. No crap!

Actually, just listening to the side effects of medicines and treatments really make the ailment not seem too bad.

[foreigncorrespondent]

2. Yeah! Tell me about it!

I went and saw my DR last week, and be gave me a script for some pills for arthritis. I began taking them, and after taking the second one on day two, I became quite ill. It began with a headache I just couldn't shift.

I went to bed that night was sound asleep and woke up all of a sudden, because I was almost throwing up in my sleep. I got up and had some water and went and laid back down again, and finally got back off to sleep. That morning I woke up and got ready for work, even though I really wasn't feeling at all well. By the time I got home from work, I was running a very high fever, the nausea was worse, and the headache was ten times worse than the day before.

Next time, I am going with an all natural medicine instead.

[BuddhaGirl]

5. some natural arthritis med. alternatives

are glucosamine & MSM, and herbal anti-inflammatories such as curcumin(tumeric). Also, taking fish oil can be helpful.

A naturopathic doctor can give you some good alternatives, as well as suggestions on diet/lifestyle changes.

[indigobusiness]

12. Hi BuddhaGirl, glucosamine healed my knee

and it was in bad shape. I tell everybody with degenerating joints to try it.

OT- Have you ever been to the Vajrapani Institute near Boulder Creek?

[xpunkisneatx]

6. that prob wasnt from the medicine...

it sounds like you had a bug...not a reaction to the meds. Please don't use natural medicine...it doesnt work and in fact can harm you because you never really know what is in it.

[BuddhaGirl]

7. you don't know what you're talking about

have you ever tried it? Natural medicine is backed up by many, many studies and clinical trials.

It is safe and effective.

[xpunkisneatx]

9. Actually...I did a study on Kava Kava

A "natural" insomnia drug...and it gave the rats I gave it to severe jaundice and kernicterus (brain damage from high bilirubin levels). So yes, i do know what I am talking about.

[BuddhaGirl]

10. so, based on one study you did with kava kava

you come to the conclusion that natural therapies don't work?

Well, I use use kava kava from time to time, as well as many other natural medicines and I'm pretty healthy. They really are safe and effective. :-)

[xpunkisneatx]

13. Fine. Use them all you want...

But don't think they are going to cure what ails you. And don't come crying to anyone when you get sick from toxic "herbal" supplements who are not regulated by anyone. I am not saying the FDA is perfect, but at least there are SOME studies done on commercial drugs.

[Ripley]

17. What a crock of BS if I ever heard someone spout it!

And don't come crying to anyone when you get sick from toxic "herbal" supplements who are not regulated by anyone. Well tell me Miss Rat Tester, whom should my relatives cry to because of the death of my aunt from Vioxx? You know, the "regulated, FDA approved" commercial drug.

People all over the world are cured for what ails them by herbal supplements. In fact many medical doctors are recommending integrated medicine these days.

Wake up little snoozy.

[Lindacooks]

33. Why don't you list some of those studies about herbal supplements?

Bet you can't find any. Because they aren't peer reviewed and duplicated by scientists. The problem with herbal medicines is that there is absolutely no regulation of them at all. Which means there could be NONE of the ingredient you think you're buying in the product. Or there could be something in there that isn't listed. And people DO die from herbal medicines and supplements.

And your logic is faulty. Yes, the FDA isn't doing a good job - especially after Reagan gutted it and Bush* is now running it. I do believe the scientists working for the FDA - a whistleblower got Vioxx off the market. It's the managers and political appointees who are the problem in that agency. But it doesn't logically follow that herbal suppplements are safer because they are not regulated by the FDA. There is no oversight at all in those products. Manufacturers can put whatever the hell they want to into herbal supplements. And 'natural' doesn't mean safe. Arsenic is 'natural'. So is nicotine.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/invoke.cfm?id=NU00205

http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/ds-warn.html

[xpunkisneatx]

71. THANK YOU!

Finally someone shows some logic here. Thats right...just because it is "natural" doesnt mean it is safe. I have heard many stories of people trying to treat their cancer with herbal supplements..and surprise! they all died. Trust your doctors. Most of them are there to help you and not to benefit from drug companies. And to the person who was mocking my scientific study...you have been warned. Keep using the stuff. see if I care. But think about my study (one of the few out there) when you become jaundiced and need a liver transplant.

[moggie]

76. Australian regulation

Last year, as a result of serious illnesses suffered by a number of people who had taken a travel sickness remedy, the Australian TGA (their equivalent of the FDA) investigated a number of products of the pharmaceutical company concerned. They found serious problems, including widely varying concentrations of the active ingredients (where there was an active ingredient, that is!). To quote an article in Skeptical Inquirer (September/October '03): "Charging Pan with unacceptable manufacturing procedures, inadequate quality control, falsification of records, and other misdemeanors, TGA revoked its license to manufacture in April 2003. It then instituted an immediate compulsory product recall of (at last count and ongoing) more than 1500 products". The company exported worldwide, so it's quite possible you've used its alternative remedies or dietary supplements.

This is, of course, a positive story about Australian regulation of the industry, even though they have a two-tier regulation system, with most alternative medicines and food supplements falling under the more lenient regime. But I believe this is more regulation than exists in the US. If one of the largest Australian manufacturers of alternative remedies was corrupt and incompetent, and made products which were actively harmful (as well as others which did absolutely nothing), how far do you trust similar US companies?

[BuddhaGirl]

23. you're right, the FDA is NOT perfect

in fact it's far from perfect, given the latest news.

As I said earlier, you don't know what you're talking about.

[Lindacooks]

34. You're wrong.

If this person did a study with kava kava, then that person is a scientist and has the education and experience to know exactly what he/she is talking about. And it isn't just one study that has shown kava kava to be dangerous; there are many:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5147a1.htm

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/addskava.html

Just because nothing happened to you (that you know about; it's possible to have an injury that won't show up as a symptom for years) when taking these supplements does NOT mean they are safe. Anecdotal evidence means squat. What counts is peer reviewed double-blind duplicated studies by Ph.D. scientists.

[xpunkisneatx]

73. thank you once again...

It kills me when someone says I don't know what I am talking about when I in fact did a year long study on the damn thing. Ok, I guess an entire year of research and a 50 page paper on the subject means nothing in this world.

[Lindacooks]

78. And you're quite welcome.

I saw you getting beaten up on this board and I had to step in. People who don't realize that science, REAL science, peer reviewed experiments and theories, and government research money has directly increased their life span and quality of life are living with their heads in the sand.

[Ripley]

81. lol - YOU SPENT AN ENTIRE YEAR STUDYING IT?

Wow, you must be the King of the Hill in medical journals!!

I suppose Dr. Weil is just a freak, huh? Never spent more time than you studying a subject?

I cannot comment on Kava. I believe it is a situation like all herbals. They can be misused the same way OTC's can. But the blanket statements being passed off here, that people should fear "untested" herbs while they should take the FDA at it's word is absurd. Vioxx is not the first, nor will it be the last drug that has been heavily approved, marketed and distributed at a great profit to companies and individuals. Yet was pulled out later.

Too late for my aunt.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ripley]

92. Take a pill! Your choice!

You really seem stressed out and emotionally distraught.

Or you could take deep breaths and drink some Chamomile tea to relax, but OOPS that would be HORRIBLE. On second thought, why don't you take a Valium or Prozac. Better now?

[KamaAina]

75. Are you sure the kava preparation you used was from the root?

NOT the leaves. It has been known in the Pacific for centuries that the leaves of the kava ('awa in Hawaiian) plant are toxic. The extract from the root has been used safely hereabouts for all that time.

Alas, during the recent kava craze, some unscrupulous European suppliers started to add the leaves when they couldn't get the root, with predictable results (i.e. the liver toxicity you describe with the rats). Now kava has been banned in Germany, and Hawai'i farmers who invested in the new crop can't give it away.

edit: It would be the fault of your supplier if your lab ended up with contaminated kava. There would be no way for you to know this short of a VERY sophisticated analysis.

[xpunkisneatx]

80. I knew all about that...

Which is why I used several commercial brands of Kava Kava with the hopes that not all of them had the leaves in them. I got pretty much the same results with all of the preparations I used, granted, some had more liver damage than others. And i also made the dose comparable to the human dose in the rat...so it wasn't like I was overdosing the rat on it (i am sure someone is gonna accuse me of that one..)

[chicagiana]

18. If they were backed up by REAL clinical trials ...

... than they would be regulated and sold by the drug companies. Yeha they do "studies". But most of them are anecdotal. Their standards for "studies" just aren't the same.

Any time these companies find that their product actually do ANYTHING, they pull them from the market. You see, if their drugs have a demonstrable affect, these companies could be held liable.

We have "fake doctors" out there like reflexologists, accupuncturists, chiropracters, etc... Well, a fake doctor can't write a REAL prescription. So the fake doctors need a fake pharmacological repetoir that offers a hundred different forms of snake oil.

What you THINK it does and what it ACTUALLY does is NOT the same thing. And until you drill down and test these things VIGOROUSLY all your doing is placeboeing yourself.

[BuddhaGirl]

22. there are MANY clinical trials and extensive studies

done on herbs and alternative therapies. Manyof these forms of healing have been around for centuries. Some pharmaceutical drugs are even derived from herbs.

It is not "snake oil." It works. And pharma drugs kill more people every year than herbs or other alternative therapies.

I'll stick with my natural medicine. :-)

[moggie]

77. You keep using this word "natural"

Can you explain what you mean by it?

[Ripley]

25. Gawd can there be any more TOTALLY IGNORANT people here?

Acupuncturists are not "fake doctors" and maybe if you did just a wee bit of educating yourself in this area you would know they indeed heal people. In fact they have been doing it for thousands of years. My father (a retired NASA engineer - not exactly a Hippie) finally saw one because of his leg pain he had for years. With one acupuncture treatment he was playing golf again and hasn't had it bother him once since the treatment about 3 years ago.

Yes, that is anecdotal. But I can also provide you with thousands more anecdotal stories about real people dying at the hands of real doctors. And if you think pharmaceuticals only cure and never harm, you must be living in a cave.

[chicagiana]

26. placebo !!!

So explain the bio-mechanical mechanism by which his leg pain dissapeared. The accupunturist will start talking about your spleen meridian above your thumb and "chi energy".

It's all a bunch of BULLSHIT!!!! If you're telling the truth, your father was cured by placebo.

I do NOT believe that pharma never harms. ANYTHING with the potential to cure must NECESSARILY have the potential to do harm. Ask ANY doctor and they'll tell you as much.

Yes, doctors who have a basis in science DO do harm. It's kinda a risk you take. There is a risk of dying in a car accident, but you drive one anyway. The herbalist, accupuncturist, homeopath ALSO has potential to do harm. And I would argue that practicing "medicine" without a basis of controlled scientific literature both increases the potential harm AND decreases the potential cure.

I've had accupunture done to me. And I wasn't nearly as impressed with the needle action as I was with the guy telling me "You're headache is gone ... right, it's gone." I have no doubt that the needles interact with the nerve endings in some ways. I have no doubt that it probably stimulates the brain. I seriously doubt that it has any systemic affects on the body beyond over-stimulating a nerve and decreasing pain thresholds.

Deep down people WANT to be taken care of. They WANT to feel secure. And a "practioner" that "gives" them a cure can often relieve a psycho-somatic illness simply with a little TLC, personal attentiona and the power of suggestion.

[sangh0]

37. So explain the bio-mechanical mechanism that makes ASPIRIN work

because ASPIRIN does undeniably work, but no doctor or scientist knows why

[chicagiana]

46. Yes, they do ...

http://www.howstuffworks.com/aspirin.htm/printable

[xpunkisneatx]

82. what the hell...

Aspirin works by inhibiting cyclooxygenase 1 for its antiplatlet activity and by inhibiting cyclooxogenase 2 for its anti-inflammation/fever reducer application. Its common knowledge. And people are calling ME ignorant?

[Ripley]

44. In your mind maybe it is bullshit.

According to a National Institutes of Health report on acupuncture in 1997, evidence suggests that acupuncture triggers the release of pain-relieving endorphins and also appears to improve immune function.

There are now more than 10,000 practitioners of acupuncture in the United States, many of them medical doctors. To obtain a referral to a reputable traditional Chinese acupuncturist, contact the American Association of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (www.aaom.org). To find a Western medical acupuncturist, contact the American Academy of Medical Acupuncture (www.medicalacupuncture.org).

Maybe you guys should stop acting like fraidy cats that natural medicines and methods that have been used for centuries work, because you think they're going to put you out of your mansion.

I have never recommended that someone use these methods without speaking to a doctor for their condition. While I hear from you that it is all a dangerous form of treatment, I hear no acknowledgment that Western medicine has a very dangerous track record.

If you can't be open minded enough to understand that integrated medicine is the key to health, well, I can't argue with your brainwashing.

[chicagiana]

48. You're not reading

While I hear from you that it is all a dangerous form of treatment, I hear no acknowledgment that Western medicine has a very dangerous track record.


You didn't hear because you weren't listening.

Yes, doctors who have a basis in science DO do harm. It's kinda a risk you take. There is a risk of dying in a car accident, but you drive one anyway. The herbalist, accupuncturist, homeopath ALSO has potential to do harm. And I would argue that practicing "medicine" without a basis of controlled scientific literature both increases the potential harm AND decreases the potential cure.


You say that acupuncture releases endorphins. But so does a vigorous walk. Using your definition for "medicine", anything Playstation and X-Box could be classified as medicine.

I openly acknowledge that many traditional remedies do have value. But I'm most vociferous in saying we don't know WHICH ones for WHAT conditions. All "traditional" practitioners rely on is word of mouth and uncontrolled anecdotal evidence.

I have no problem with having needles stuck in you if you like that. Nor do I have problems with message therapy, aroma therapy, etc... I have a problem with people calling those things ... MEDICINE, and claiming it cures things. There is no documented controlled evidence that ANY of these things can cure ANYTHING.

As far as pharmacoligy goes, it's a tricky business even with drugs that HAVE been extensively studied. Despite systematic rigorous testing, we STILL have drugs that slip through that produce radically adverse side-effects. Even worse, your drugs have NEVER been tested at all in controlled studies. You have NO IDEA whether it does what you say it does. All you have is anecdotal evidence that is impossible to distinguish placebo and the affects of other substances (like tobacco, nicotine, etc...).

If you can't be open minded enough to understand that integrated medicine is the key to health, well, I can't argue with your brainwashing.

Yeah, eat healthy and excercise. Boy those stupid doctors NEVER tell you to do that, do they??? As far as those mega-supplements go, you have to use the right delivery mechanism. You'll piss out most of those supplements because they aren't in the correct form.


I haven't been "brainwashed". I alredy told you I let someone DO accupuncture on me. I thought it was bogus. I listen I observe and I apply expect the rigors of science to be applied. Just because something follows another thing, it doesn't mean there is a causal effect.

Until you subject your "herbal" treatments of .... WHATEVER to controlled study, it's all snake oil to me. I'd bet a few would pan out. But most are probably worthless.

[Ripley]

49. Pharmacoligy huh?

Just because something follows another thing, it doesn't mean there is a causal effect.

What does THAT mean?

I really don't want to parse words with you. There ARE controlled studies of herbal, alternative treatments. You seem to not want to see them. If you are really in the field, you have to be aware of them.

Crystals swayed over my fricked up kneee ... yeah, I'll agree THAT is snake oil.

Vitamins, herbal supplements, healthy food and staying the hell off pharms as long as you can (as opposed to 20-30 year olds gobbling up anti-cholesterol meds) is the way to live.

Your last statement "But most are probably worthless." is the utmost ignorant I have seen to date.

Good luck with your spiraling pill dependence and the jacked up prices and the lack of insurance coverage for those.

[chicagiana]

55. You assume I'm dependent on pills ...

What does THAT mean?
I turned my my light switch this morning about 6:30 am. Then the sun came up. The light switch and the sun rising have no causal relationship.

Most things aren't that rediculously simple to separate. But in order to show causation, you have to do systematic controlled study.

Good luck with your spiraling pill dependence and the jacked up prices and the lack of insurance coverage for those.

I am not. But what is the difference between pill vs herb dependence??? Except that the herbs are NOT regulated or supervised by the FDA. Thus you have NO IDEA what is in those bottles.

If your "substance" is in there, you have no idea of how much. Nor can you adequetly dose if you grow herbs in your garden since you cannot tell the pharmacological content of a plant when it hasn't been rigorously tested and systematically regulated.


I have no problem with alternative ideas about treatment. This is where new treatments come from. However in the rational world (as opposed to the freaky mystic/magic world typified by religious wackjobs) you have to prove the claims you make by eliminating all other posibilities that can interact with a cause/effect relationship.


BTW, I never said that you shoulnd't eat healthy. And it's one of the things that doctors stress. Don't get on some bent that scientific medicine isn't "holistic". These folks do countless studies on the effects of dietary inputs on health. Doctors are the FIRST ones to say eat your veggies!!!!

[Ripley]

65. Your entire argument is dodge ball.

What does turning on a light have to do with the sunrise?

And the fact that you can't spell is quite telling ("rediculously").

Where do you get the idea that people are "herb dependent." Dependency means that one has side effects when one gets off it, right Doc?

Wanna talk FDA. Tell me why they defend KNOWING VIOXX caused an increase in heart problems, yet allowed it to be marketed extensively through TV/print (I believe that nice ice skater Dorothy Hammil was their spokesperson) without extensive warnings about heart problems?

[chicagiana]

66. Where do you get the idea that I'm "pill dependent"??? (nm)

[Ripley]

68. Oh, you're referring to that.

That was a "generality" comment. One that would apply to most Americans. In fact I bet 50% of Americans over the age of 50 are on pharms. Forever.

Sorry, it was not directed at you personally.

[chicagiana]

74. Well mine was a generality too ???

The ONLY reason I put my "herb dependent" statement in was a comeback to your "generality". And I'm shocked you didn't get that.

[Ripley]

79. You made pretty condescending remarks about alternatives:

However in the rational world (as opposed to the freaky mystic/magic world typified by religious wackjobs)...

There is scientific evidence that many of the herbal compounds used in South America and for centuries in China are effective and heal patients.

If you want to argue about whether there are charlatans in America who try to sell shit like Coral Calcium...no argument from me. I agree there are unfounded claims out there. However, your argument is that all "non-FDA-approved" are mystical is just plain not true.

[chicagiana]

94. faith = mysticism ...

If these substances have not undergone rigorous scientific research, then you are taking them on faith. Time and time again anecdotal evidence proves unreliable.

Yes, some of those things pan out. But there are THOUSANDS of substances being prescribed and MOST of those substances have ZERO peer reviewed research done on them.

Yes the FDA DOES fuck it up sometimes. There are mistakes in any and every process. But what you get is an excellent bet that prescription medicine is both safe and effective when prescribed as indicated (for the correct symptoms in correct dosages).

And BTW, homeopaths are insane.

[Ms_Mary]

102. I'll happily be crazy in that case.

It's being just as naive to deny that herbs have no beneficial properties as it is to deny that there may be side effects. Far more people are harmed by pharmacueticals than by herbal supplements. Furthermore, most of the people harmed by supplements are not taking them in accorance with the directions and are usually taking them in doses many times too high under the misconception that natural automatically equals safe.

Whether you are taking a pharmacuetial drug or an herb, the bottom line is do your homework. Know what you are taking and why.

[chicagiana]

110. Dosages, effecicy, and potency .... OH MY

Well, if they're overdosing and there are no negative side effects, that's a pretty good indication that they're worthless.

Yes homeopaths are absolutely 100% insane because the basis of their quackery is the infinite dilution of substances. It the idea the the more you dilute something, the more potent it becomes. That is contradicted by ALL properties of the science we call chemistry.

There is something to be said for efficacy in dosing. But homeopaths are nuts. And if you're a "new-age homepath" your still nuts. Because your basing your dressing yourself in the cloak of long discredited and disgraced theories. Being a "new homeopath" is like being a "new klansmen". You may have changed the language, but it's still all BULLSHIT!!!

[Donkeyboy75]

97. Actually, the FDA didn't know.

Merck is being charged with hiding the heart disease data.

Just for the sake of accuracy...

[AngryAmish]

113. I am addicted to a "natural" product - caffeine

Terrible withdrawal effects. Nicotine, too but I quit that one.

Come to think of it, alcohol, a natural product, can kill an alcoholic during withdrawal.

Opium withdrawal is pretty nasty, too.

Vioxx was a mistake, done through greed. However, it was caught eventually and it is being dealt with. People and governments are not perfect. But ignoring the fruit of the scientific method is silly.

[xpunkisneatx]

83. You know what else releases pain relieveing endorphins?

Sex...and exercise. Fuck the needles. Acupuncture is pseudoscience at its best.

[Ripley]

93. Yes!!

And as I have said countless times in this thread, sex and exercise are bad. :eyes:

You really sound like a student of science, with the "Fuck the needles." and all!

I'm sure your hatred of Chinese medicine won't color your treatment of people in your future. :hi:

[AngryAmish]

112. Compare life expectancy now v. thousands of years ago

Science based medicine has a better track record.

[H2O Man]

28. sometimes "anecdotal" is the best thing.

I had a severe back injury. I was interested in all types of information. "Anecdotal" evidence was just as important to me as anything else. It helped me to make the best decision I could under difficult circumstances.

[chicagiana]

57. Anecdotal as in ...

...

Anecdotal as in

"I went to Dr so and so and he did a good job. He's board certified and uses the latest scientifically vetted techniques".


vs....

"I went to Shaman Vasrika who used an ancient treatment on me untainted by the hands of oppresive western scinece. While I was there he also sold me some vitamin supplements that will keep demons away, adjusted my shakras, and sold me a statue of Ganesh to keep my house's Chi energy from getting out of wack."

[Lindacooks]

58. Sorry, when companies make claims based on anecdotal

evidence, that's just the same as snake oil salesman. I'm sure you would have been trumpeting the benefits of all kinds of crap in the 1800s and early 1900s, before the FDA was established and started protecting consumers.

Did you know that meat used to be injected with arsenic to stop it from spoiling? That anybody could claim anything they produced in their home cured diseases? That farmers used to thicken milk with chalk to get higher prices? Are you for this? Because that is what happened before the government started monitoring food and medicine.

[H2O Man]

84. thanks for your insight

however, my friends are not companies.

[Lindacooks]

35. And what exactly is your education in this area?

Anecdotal evidence is NOT evidence. Anecdotal evidence is what snake oil salesmen have used on uneducated people since the beginning of time. People can say anything they want to - that is NOT scientific proof.

Unless you have some kind of education (I have a degree in Biology) in this area, you'd better not call other people ignorant.

[Ripley]

47. Oh, so a degree in Biology overlooks FACTS.

Have you even read up on non-Western medicine?

I agree that someone can overdose on Vitamin C like any uninformed person can by taking too much of anything (people OD on common OTC drugs too). And you would be correct...certain herbal supplements can be deadly when taken in conjunction with pharmaceuticals.

However. You are putting forth the argument that all "herbal supplements" are unsafe because they haven't been reviewed by some guys in America. How rude and uninformed you are!

I am not dismissing the use of pharms for illness. I am asking why you fight so hard to let the naturopaths in?

Could it be greed?

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ripley]

67. Gee you alerted on me twice while calling me an asshole?

Maybe I should alert?

Naw. I just think you are close minded.

[chicagiana]

61. You have to PROVE IT!!!!

Your reversing the argument. It's not the job of science to prove your claim untrue. Proving a negative is NOT possible.

It is the job of the supplement guys to prove their product is safe and effective.

Unfortunately, under REPUBLICAN control of congress, the FDAs power to regulate the supplement industry went away. Hence the monster growth in the supplement INDUSTRY claiming to cure just about anything and prevent everything else.

[Ms_Mary]

103. Are you familiar with the German Commission E? Look into that.

Just because the FDA hasn't done it does not mean it has not been done.

[WVhill]

106. Check out "The Complete German Commission E Monographs"

Those are published by the German Federal Institute for Drugs and Medical Devices. They're available in this country through the American Botanical Council. Commission E deals with phytotherapy and herbal substances. I doubt you'll pony up the bucks for it. You might find it in a specialized library if you're really interested.

If you do read it, you'll understand that herbal use is backed up by real clinical trials. Lots of so-called accepted medical practice in America has no scientific basis. If you doubt that, find a study that correlates cholesterol to heart disease. You won't.

[spanone]

99. Totally Absurd Statement. 'don't use natural medicine'

Could we assume you are in 'the business'. Most of America is DRUGGED OUT on prescription drugs.

[porkrind]

107. I would agree.

Lots of common drugs come from natural herbs in which an active ingredient has been isolated, synthesised and studied. I think you are better off trusting scientists rather than well-meaning but uneducated homeopaths. In any case, do lots of research and reading on whatever you are taking.

[Ms_Mary]

101. Yah. When the side effects include lymphoma, I'm thinking that's not good.

[DrWeird]

3. mmhmm. And the leading cause of breast cancer...

is breast exams.

[CoffeeAnnan]

8. Your observation is not as facetious as it sounds.The NYT had a

very lengthy series on breast cancer last year in which they showed that one of the reasons for the large number of fatalities among women undergoing breast exams was the less than expert reading of Xrays by radiologists.Many of them, in some cases more than 50%, completely missed the early signs.When such cancers go undetected, they become fatal.What is worse, the patients are lulled into a false sense of security because they were given a clean bill of health.

[donkeyotay]

4. Or maybe we the people could change postitions with the DoD

Instead of us existing to support them, they could go back to existing to protect us... instead of us being their slaves, they could be our servants.

[donco6]

11. That's silly.

I was cured of intermediate grade lymphoma by a very good doctor and chemotherapy. The mass reduced in size immediately after the first round of chemo. Have been cancer free for five years.

Doctors don't cause illness. What a stupid thing to say.

[Jeanette in FL]

14. My 88 year old neighbor

Who could run circles around me with her energy, was replanting a big tree. I told her to wait and I would get my husband to help her. She waved me off. By the time I got my husband she had already gotten the tree out and was digging a new hole. I asked her how do you stay so healthy and energentic. She said "It's the Doctors" and with a straight face she continued "I stay the fuck away from them" I had never heard this woman say a curse word in her life, but she went on a tear about Doctors and Hospitals and all the natural things she does to keep healthy. Since I was already involved with Alternatives, I knew what she was saying was true.

[devinsgram]

16. Same with my mother-in-law.

She is 81 and never goes to the doctors. She did break her hip a few years ago, had a replacement, but hasn't been back to the doctors since that. She takes no medication at all and lives alone and is doing just great.

[chicagiana]

19. REALLY healthy people ...

REALLY healthy people who have excellent immune systems have NO NEED to see a doctor. It's like saying death is an excellent way of avoiding the doctor.

Somewhere out there, theres a 96 year old geiser who smokes like a chimney. When asked what his secret to health is, he could gleefully offer that it's the cigarettes. After all, look how healthy he is!!!!!

This is like asking a naturally skinny person what their secret is. Or like asking someone who naturally ages slowly like John Edwards what their beauty secrets are. Some people are just exceptions. And they have NO IDEA why they're an exception. They might tell you what THEY do. But their is no rational reason to believe what they tell you is the REAL reason.

[bemildred]

15. Medical care can be very effective for a acute conditions.

On the other hand, an attitude of blind trust for the medical
professions can be bad for your health:

http://www.iatrogenic.org/index.html

I'm with the 88 year old lady, I avoid medical care as much as
possible, and drugs likewise, and I would wager that any longitudinal
study would show that my odds are better for it. Good diet, low
stress, happiness, and exercise can be amazingly effective in improving
your health. And it's much cheaper to.

But of course, there are no guarantees, no matter what you do, we are
all ephemeral beings.

[chicagiana]

20. Blind trust in yourself is ...

Blind trust to your own devices can be just as bad!!!!

[indigobusiness]

27. I agree. Western Medicine is good for trauma, but not great at healing

therapies. Most drugs treat symptoms and cause symptoms that are treated with other drugs. What a vicious cycle! Not to mention the lethal mistakes endemic to Western Medicine.

Holistic Medicine has a far better history of healing.

[H2O Man]

30. Interesting thought.

I used to be concerned when the clinic I worked at began to show more faith in medicating all psychiatric complaints, because of the immediate effects of the drugs. Even in a chronic illness such as the schizophrenic disorders, I always thought that we should be patient, and recognize that it was a legitimate human condition. People can be mildly psychotic,and not pose a threat to themselves or others. I used to prefer the approach of seeing, for example, "Gary" as a person with many skills, who had schizophrenia, rather than seeing Gary as a schizophrenic.

Obviously, if a person has a significant injury such as a large, deep cut, they require immediate attention. Likewise, if a person's illness creates a serious threat to themselves or others, they require immediate attention. But a kid who gets distracted in the middle of the school day does not require a pill; kids shouldn't have long school days. It's unnatural. And our society is moving in an unatural direction that requires a pill to make the unacceptable to become acceptable.

The earth tends to produce the medicines we need. I'm not interested in a society that trades shamen for psychiatrists.

[indigobusiness]

32. Hi H2OMan...Provocative, as usual.

Don't get me started on schools, psychiatry, and medicine. Those subjects strip me of my limited charm, and I revert to my unpleasant self.

Schools are glorified babysitter/indoctrinator/torture chambers. Have you ever noticed how a magical preschooler is transformed into a manipulative, political, Machiavellian after introduction to the school system?

There are a few "experimental" schools that recognize this hazard and deal with it admirably. But, most public school systems do little more than than indoctrinate and subjugate, and are functionaries of our predominant controller society. Free Country? My butt.

Ever notice how our system elevates the worst types to positions of authority? Is it any wonder that administrators and politicians are, overwhelmingly, egocentric creeps? Some great people are able to endure the madness, but not many. The slime also rises.

In medicine, the mind/body connection is finally dawning on the establishment. Natural substances are proving superior to synthetic chemicals...the not-so-holy grail of recent medical dogma.

During the 70s psychiatric medicine went on a binge, a sort of feeding frenzy with new man-made compounds. All the drug addled casualties of the 60s were rich fodder for a shot-gun approach to drug-therapy. Everything was thrown at the wall, to see what stuck. Oh, the humanity!

There is a strange psychology in America that the latest is greatest, and 'new and improved' gets our pulse racing. So many lessons and so much traditional knowledge has been forgotten in our mad rush to the present...when will we ever learn?

[moggie]

52. "There are two kinds of fool..."

"One says: 'This is old, and therefore good'. And one says: 'This is new, and therefore better'" -- John Brunner

Much "traditional knowledge" is, thankfully, no longer widely applied in developed countries, because it was dangerous nonsense: for example, the belief that certain diseases were caused by possession by evil spirits. Sadly, many people in Africa believe that AIDS is caused by witchcraft, and the "witches" have been murdered. But that's ok, because it's traditional.

There is good and bad in both ancient and modern ways of looking at the world. The important thing is that medicine should be evidence based. Humans are so susceptible to self-delusion that it's essential to get firm, objective evidence of the efficacy of any treatment.

[Lindacooks]

59. Thank you, that is exactly right.

And that is why we live longer than 100 years ago, why we are healthier than 100 years ago, and why government-based oversight groups and peer reviewed research is the ONLY reason why.

[indigobusiness]

62. Extremism in any form is absurd.

What ridiculous examples you cite to refute what, exactly?

Nowhere did I say that contemporary thought was all bad, nor traditional thought all good. That was hardly the point.

Lies are lies, whenever uttered.

[moggie]

95. Retreat from reason

Lies are lies, whenever uttered

Quite so. But many advocates of "alternative" medicine and therapies are happy to accept lies from an alternative practitioner, and refuse to accept the truth from anyone in the "conventional" medicine field. Please accept that I'm not accusing you of this, but there does seem to be a worrying retreat from science among an increasing number of people.

The scientific method is the best technique we have developed for discovering the truth about how the world works. In the medical sphere, this means carefully designed double-blind large-scale trials, with peer review. This works for traditional remedies as well as for newly-developed ones, and I'm all in favour of investigating traditional remedies from around the world in this way. Nothing but good can come of this.

Sadly, though, it seems that more and more people in the west are abandoning the Enlightenment and retreating into superstition and credulity. This leads to things like banning stem-cell research, schools refuting evolution, and charlatans preying on the sick and unhappy. Jesusland, if you will.

Our best hope for the future is to have an educated, scientifically literate public who are equipped to rationally judge competing claims. But we seem to be heading in the opposite direction; in fact, earlier this year, the National Science Foundation issued a report warning of a critical shortfall in the number of people entering scientific professions in the US. This doesn't bode well for US competitiveness in technology.

We can only move forward by keeping the best of what the past has given us, and the only reliable way to do this is the scientific method.

[H2O Man]

96. I agree with most of what you say here.

Your's is a good and thoughful post. I think that even among those who believe in traditional medicines etc, there is a recognition that a lot of wounded and confused people are looking for "cures" that aren't there. And that is one aspect. Of course, one in ten doctors graduated in the bottom 10% of their class.

The best traditional medicines and practices and the best modern medicines and practices over-lap. One of my best friends was a pediatrician. When one local pediatrician misdiagnosed my new-born son, and my boy almost died, this gentleman saved his life. He was affiliated with Syracuse University, and was one of the great men I have met.

He also was interested in high blood pressure among children, something that is far more a problem among non-Iroquois children than Iroquois. But he couldn't get on the territory. So some of my best memories are of introducing him to a relative on the Council of Chiefs. We sat and discussed what is good for children. Modern and traditional over-lap.

The greatest weakness in modern science is arrogance. It makes people blind. On this thread, a human claimed that before modern medicine, the life expectancy was but 40. When asked for evidence, the human produced a paper that said in about 1900, it was 47. Well, a person can do simple math, and see the Civil War killed the healthy American males that would have been the "older generation"; that industrialization and urban conditions moved people into close proximity, with no health standards in the factories, and mighty poor living conditions to deal with communicable diseases. In a very real sense, "modern" society killed people at a younger age.

Put the scientist and the traditional people together for coffee, and society gains.

[muriel_volestrangler]

100. See this paper: average British life expectancy at birth was below 40

until about 1880 (Figure 2 in http://atar.mscc.huji.ac.il/~melchior/conf-5-03/life-expectancy-0403.pdf).

No civil wars involved. There was a gradual increase in life expectancy during the early stages of the industrial revolution, and then a much bigger one from the last quarter of the 19th century onwards. The only noticable decreases are the 2 World Wars.

Note this is life expectancy at birth; once you got through childhood, your chances of living into your 60s were pretty good: http://www.bus.ualberta.ca/rfield/LifeExpectancy.htm

[H2O Man]

105. Again, it is based on a population

that tended to live in urban areas. It has less to do with what peoples' life expectancy under the circumstances that most of the world lived under. I have no debate regarding the unhealthy conditions that made life shorter for those living too close, with open sewers, and a poor diet. That's not what I'm talking about. But thanks for your opinion. It adds to the discussion, though it shouldn't be taken as proof that people naturally only lived short lifes.

[muriel_volestrangler]

108. The chart goes back to 1700

When England and Wales were not urban. As urban areas grew in the next 200 years, the life expectancy slowly went up, with a sudden spurt at the end.

What life expectancy figures do you have for rural areas from the 19th century or earlier?

[H2O Man]

111. Just family history

Again, you have a tiny record (though a little larger than my family) which doesn't mean a lot. One has to say that it is hardly likely any of the earlier records you mention are inclusive of all populations in the "British" Isles.

[Lindacooks]

36. You do realize that ADHD means that a child's brain isn't getting enough

oxygen. You think that's ok? Shouldn't we do something about that? What's wrong with taking a drug that will improve your quality of life? I have a husband with ADHD who struggled all through school, being told he was stupid and lazy; he was finally tested for ADHD as an adult and is now on adderal and he says his life is 1000% improved.

And I'd also like to point out that, until Western medicine developed in this century, the average life span was about 40 years. It's only since we developed antibiotics and other drugs that the life span has increased. You can talk all you want to about 'ancient Chinese herbs', but the ancient Chinese didn't live very long.

[H2O Man]

38. Good golly!

First, there are very few children being put on oxygen for "ADHD." I would certainly agree that fresh air does children better than the stuffy classrooms.

Second, ADHD is something that is "diagnosed" by a few folks agreeing on a cluster of behaviors. There are numerous children misdiagnosed every year, depending on what training a clinic's staff has most recently been to, or what luncheon a drug-pushing company has provided.

Third, could you reference the "average life span ...(of) 40 years" in a respected journal? It is, of course, simply not true.

[Lindacooks]

39. Being put on oxygen isn't the same thing as your body being able

to get enough of it and process it. Sheesh. The drugs used to treat ADHD help the blood vessels in your brain transmit more oxygen to brain cells. If somebody is dying of lung cancer and unable to get oxygen to the cells of the body, putting them on oxygen isn't going to save them.

http://www.healing-arts.org/children/ADHD/

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/facts/adhd.htm

Second, ADHD is now diagnosed by a series of computer tests measuring things like attention span, how your eye moves across a page, and how long your eye can focus on symbols and objects.

and as far as the average life span goes, here you are:

"In 1900 life expectancy at birth in the US was 47.3 years; by 1950 it had improved to 68.2 years. In 2000 life expectancy at birth was 73.2 years for males and 80.2 years for females. It is projected that life expectancy will continue to increase, reaching nearly 80 years for men and 86 years for women in 2050."

from:

http://www.med.miami.edu/med/gerontology/faq.asp

http://www.wonderquest.com/LifeSpan.htm

Now I expect an apology, because I have proof and science to back up my claims, while you do not.

[H2O Man]

42. I sorry you feel that way.

Because that didn't back up your claim.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chicagiana]

64. Oxygen deprivation ???

I'm pretty doubtful about that one. The link you provided suggested that neo-natal hypoxia may contribute to formation of the condition. Not that it's a systemic condition that a person suffers all their life.

[xpunkisneatx]

86. You are awesome...

I in fact have ADD and OCD. So I guess i am what you would call a walking pharmacy. But you know what? I wouldn't be able to function without it. And yes H2OMan, ADHD is caused by a lack of oxygen to the brain. Look it up. If people would actually think about things before they post on here, maybe Lindacooks and I wouldn't have to do all the damn research for you.

[H2O Man]

88. Please read post # 64

Thanks much for your opinion. You are certainly entitled to it.

[chicagiana]

63. LOTS of misdiagnosis ...

There is LOTS of misdiagnosis to go around. And it's a shame that our knowledge of behavior/brain chemistry is still so limited.

Now I wouldn't classify ADHD dianoses as being done by a "a few folks". Judging from Ritalin sales, I'd say it is A LOT of folks. And there is lots of evidene of all of this.

What is difficult is to classify ADD/ADHD as a "disease". In my opinion, it's just a differen't type of brain chemistry that is out of it's environment (hunter). An alternative educational environment that is more "hands on" would probably benefit these kids better than book learning. But the funding for that probably won't come through anytime soon ;-)

Until then, I suggest that the diagnoses is best left to psychiatrists, ameliorated by psychologists, and monitored by teachers and parents. If it ain't your kid, it ain't your concern.

[H2O Man]

85. Being retired

I'm not losing a lot of sleep -- Lord knows, I'd be put on meds -- but I sat in staff meetings for many years watching children being "diagnosed," and am fairly familiar with how it is done.

Certainly, there are numerous well-qualified people in the field. But we've gone beyond that in our society, and tend to drug those children who are "annoying" in school, at home, or in the community. Probably better if people do take an interest.

[K-W]

40. Yah, faith based medicine works great.

I thought we were the fact based party?

[indigobusiness]

43. That's a foolish statement.

Andrew Weil is a respected western MD that is convincing the establishment of the benefits of what I mentioned.

http://www.drweil.com/

Auyervedic herbal treatments are doing well under clinical scrutiny.
And Auyervedic/Western doctors like Deepak Chopra are opening eyes to healing by understanding old with new methods.

[EST]

104. May I intrude, slightly off subject?

How can I adjust my browser so that your posts will fit with everyone else's? Thanks in advance.

[u4ic]

109. Be careful with Weil

In the case of my illness (CFIDS) he advocates treatments which are TOTALLY inappropriate and can do alot of harm. I would not rely totally on what he says, but rather, do your own investigating. Some of his stuff is sound, but not all.

I take supplements, and have found acupuncture helpful...but no cure - not from alternative or allopathic medicine. As with so many ill people I have known.

[chicagiana]

70. HELLO, EXCERCISE, EAT MORE VEGGIES ...

... You phyicisan tells you this every fucking time you walk into the office!!!!

Shit if you really wanted to get "holistic" you'd put the health clubs and the doctors offices all in one building along with Trader Joe's, etc...

Oh I suppose you have to add religion to be "holistic" as well. Well, have no fear "alternative medicine" IS religion.

[H2O Man]

91. "....every f_____g time you walk into the office!!!!"

Gosh, if I walk in my doctor's office, he'd faint! And he would just KNOW that traditional medicine works! Being in a wheel chair, I can make those jokes.

Thank you for your insight. Don't forget to eat plenty of fruitalong with the veggies. You are, of course, correct that diet is important.

[librechik]

21. drs are good and bad, depending on the doctor and the methods

they can cure you and sometimes kill you--it's a fact that hospitals are the number one place to pick up an infection that you didn't have when you checked in. Nosicomial illnesses, as they are called, are a huge problem, so are mistakes made by hospital staff, primarily with medicine administration. So although of course going to the doctor can lead to a good cure, so can staying away.

I think the idea, that intervening in a "natural" system can lead to disaster is basically sound--however disaster can follow from not intervening too, look at how many fires are caused by not grooming the forests, or how global warming is a threat becasue the US won't intervene in the "natural" CO2 cycle.

Coffee was just trying to start a conversation. Stop badgering the poor thing.

[donhakman]

24. Doctors killed my mother and sister

I have recieved 3 deadly prescriptions in a row from my Dr.

Vioxx, Sulpha (despite the fact I wrote of my fatal allergy to this in letters 2 inches high on my info sheet)

[Carolina]

29. as a doctor, I must admit that I

hate to go to the doctor.

That said, however, most disease is caused by genetics, the environment or a comnbination of the two. PERIOD

The problem with medicine is the desire by physicians and patients for a magic bullet. A pill, shot, etc... Hence the proliferation of pharmaceutical ads geared to the lay public and the fact that most people feel they've been had if an MD doesn't prescribe something (anything) for what ails them. Thus polypharmacy is a third rail that complicates matters.

Although I think your analogy comparing doctors/medicine and the defense industry is flawed (doesn't take into account the role of those friggin insurance and drug companies), I like the idea of a temporaray shutdown of the DOD.

[Carolina]

31. PS

There are bad MDs out there; I've actually been to two in my life (referrals, no less!) and was glad I was a doctor myself so I could tell 'em off (Dr. Cut No Matter What comes to mind). I have become a devotee of the holistic approach including alternative and complementary therapies.

Modern medicine CAN do wonders for acute infections, some cancers, trauma and management of chronic illness like diabetes (to delay or avert the devastating consequences of renal failure, neuropathy, blindness, accelerated vascular disease like coronary artery atherosclerosis ...). But it is a double edged sword and I advise people to examine/change if necessary their lifestyle and avoid any newly marketed drugs. I still believe in the apple a day and aspirin for pain and inflammation (except for children)

Course I'm a forensic pathologist so I see people when it's too late.

[bemildred]

41. "forensic pathologist"

Damn. I don't suppose you take (very occasional) patients?
Ah, well. Your views agree much with mine. My regards to you.

[Carolina]

51. a doctor is a doctor

so to speak and so I was taught over 30 years ago. Hence despite my specialty, you'd be surprised how many friends or neighbors call me with complaints, symptoms and queries of what to do, often late at night. In fact, had to examine a neighbor's 3 year old just last night. Sometimes I can help. Other times, I refer them to a 'real' doctor. The key is knowing your limits and recognizing when something needs immediate attention warranting a hospital visit and when something can wait 'til regular office hours.

But no, I don't see many patients and try my damnedest to avoid being one as well. :hi:

[girl gone mad]

50. "Americans would rather...

take a pill that will kill them than take no pill at all."

Wish I could remember who said that, but after witnessing the daily regimen of pills my mom takes to overcome the effects of a lifetime of bad diets and little exercise, I've decided there's a lot of truth to it.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

45. What the fuck are you talking about?

Most ilnesses are CAUSED by doctors?

This is a well-known fact?

Gee, maybe I'm just so retarded and/or uninformed that I've never been aware of this 'fact'. And maybe I'm this retarded because I see a doctor every year for a medical checkup.

Great thread, though. :eyes:

[GiovanniC]

53. Fruit Flies Are Spawned From Old Bananas

Every time I get bananas that get overripe... I get fruit flies!

Ergo, bananas create fruit flies.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

60. 98,000 US deaths annually caused by medical errors/mistakes.....

and that's a low ball estimate of a study done by Harvard

Medical errors are the eighth leading cause of wrongful death in the United States -- 98,000 each year. The myth that frivolous malpractice lawsuits are driving up insurance rates and medical costs allow negligent doctors to continue practicing


www.prweb.com/releases/2003/11/prweb88992.htm

my.webmd.com/content/article/26/1728_59028.htm

[Donkeyboy75]

98. Mistakes are going to happen in medicine.

No doubt. Do you perfectly execute your job every day? Of course not.

Of course, if we remove physicians from society, you'd can replace that 98,000 number with millions.

[Radical Activist]

69. except for the young men in the navy

who will make love to other men, not girls. Just kidding, but seriously...

If the US would stop selling weapons to most of the worlds armies we would see a lot less death and violence. The love of money is the root of all evil.

[Malva Zebrina]

72. If one is older, one becomes wiser

I only have to look back over the treatement for diabetes.

First, it was this, then it was that diet, then it was that diet was not good, then it was another diet was better and then it was that diet, no fat, then then no carbs, then a balanced diet according to the diabetic pyramid which promotes the foods offered by the big corportations, such as cambell's soup.

No I do not believe it at this point in my life. It is simply chaos, and it is being promoted by MD's who want to prescribe the newest in drugs to control it, without really doing any research that would, heaven forbid, take the pharma compainies out of the equation.

That there has not been any significant research or cures in the offing, says soemthing to me. We an certainly do better , but the profit from the pharma companies, and all of the sidearms, ie the blood sugar monitors, the strips that are required to perfoem that test, and all of the "diabetic" supplies whose compainies must be making a fortune, tell the story. It is ALL very expensive and could deplete your food money in an instant.

[muriel_volestrangler]

90. Research into a cure for type 1 diabetes

A report from a medical panel of academic and community-based endocrinologists and transplant surgeons acknowledged that a recent study supports the use of stem cells as a future cure for type I diabetes. The panel was responding to recently published research where pancreatic insulin-producing islet cells were discovered in mice. The panelists were unanimous in their enthusiasm that this research, conducted jointly at the Universities of Alberta and Toronto, adds more hope to the goal of getting human stem cells to produce insulin, and thus finding a cure for diabetes.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/041101/nem025_1.html

Diabetes, being a malfunction of the human body, is not an easy thing to cure. Getting the body to do something is harder than just removing something like bacteria or an unwanted chemical.

[Cleita]

87. You are painting with too broad of a brush.

It's true that young healthy people may often suffer from hypochondria and busy doctors may treat this thinking the person is actually sick.

However, thanks to the dedicated medical care providers who take care of my husband, he is still alive after five years after almost dying. No he can't go without medical care. With kidney failure it's not possible.