How do you feel when a woman says, "I'm not a feminist"

[prolesunited]

many times this is followed by "but" and they continue on to say they are for equal pay or equal opportunity.

Personally, this drives me absolutely bonkers. It is the same demonization that has taken place with the word liberal and is in the works for Democrat.

What are the worst stereotypes of feminists?
Are those assessments accurate?
Do you think it is important for people self-identify as feminists?
Why would women, like Schlafly and Coulter, advocate for men's right to control and dominate?
How can we reclaim the word?

[demnan]

1. I think they are misinformed

Usually when they tell me the "buts" I say, "but that's what being a feminist means". That usually shuts them up and causes them to think.

[Seabiscuit]

54. It's a Rovian Stepford Wives line designed to piss us off.

[Sabriel]

2. "Feminists hate men"

That's the stereotype that bugs me the most. I don't hate men; I just don't want them to make decisions that affect my life.

[prolesunited]

8. That one bothers me as well

I like lots of men, one in particular. However, I do hate oppressive, dominating kuckle-draggers.

Another one I don't like is that feminists are ugly women who can't attract men and don't shave or pay attention to personal grooming.

[Mandate My Ass]

14. You said it!

I've gotten that one a lot, even here a few times.

To women who say "I'm not a feminist but..." I respond that they're enjoying the benefits that feminists fought hard for but don't want to do the work to keep these rights for themselves or the next generation for fear of being labeled a "feminazi." :grr:

[radwriter0555]

26. "This is what a Feminist Looks Like!"

[jdj]

175. I loves me some Ashely Judd.

I'd love to see her take on Ann Coulter, she's a spit-fire when it comes to feminism and abortion rights.

[devilgrrl]

3. Didn't you know that 'Feminist' = 'Lesbian'???

Because that's basically what 'Ladies Against Women' like Lynn Cheney and Phylis Schafly have turned the term into.

[Coventina]

17. Bingo. That's how I was raised.

I was well into high school when I began to suspect I'd been misinformed.

[readmoreoften]

217. Hmmm, so as I lesbian

do I get out of the feminist movement as to not give y'all a bad name?

[w4rma]

4. How can we reclaim the word? Get a mic bigger than Rush Limbaugh's.

And shout the fascists down.

He's the guy who coined the word "feminazi", you know.

[George_S]

88. Bud does anyone really think Coulter is dominated by men?

Hell no. She makes mince meat of most men who argue with her. If she were on the liberal side, she would be a "strong woman" that "men are afraid of."

What many in this debate don't understand is that this war is more than a century old and is centered around "family values." Before 1860 "some states didn't regulate abortion at all."

"Abortion laws after 1860 were broader and more drastic. Between 1860 and 1880, states passed more than forty antiabortion laws. Over a dozen states banned abortion for the first time; others tightened their existing legislation. Organized medicine led the crusade against abortion. There were a number of reasons for their zeal. One was certainly professional, connected to a general campaign against 'quacks.' The new abortion laws put power in the hands of doctors. Doctors fought hard to medicalize childbirth. They aimed to drive abortionists (many of them women), midwives, and other rivals out of business.

"But there were probably deeper social reasons for the campaign against abortion. Many women who wanted abortions were married. This was, to some observers, a most alarming fact. A woman's highest duty was to bear children, not to snuff out their lives. When middle-class white women killed the life they were carrying, they were not only perverting their own natures and denying their God-given role, they were also helping America commit racial and genetic suicide... James Whitmire, in an 1874 article on 'Criminal Abortion,' blamed abortion for the fact that there were so few 'native-born children of American parents... We are fast losing our national characteristics, and slowly merging into those of our foreign population.'

"Thus a woman who went to the abortionist and got rid of her baby was committing a terrible sin against society... The battle against abortion was tied into the general eugenic madness, the sense of contracting horizons and the image of threatened values so prominent an aspect of the late nineteenth-century cultural scene."*

*Crime and Punishment in American History, Lawrence M. Friedman, pg 229-230.

The battle with Sanger back evolved over birth-control, but was over white middle- upper-class women getting an abortion. I still haven't figured out how this evolved into a war against all abortion. It looks like it was gradual and grew from this eugenics seed into the Comstock Law. Maybe the only way to stop upper class white women was to rail against all abortion. Of course, like today, the war was against "those who prefer to look at life as if it were an immense carnival."

O'Reilly comes to mind.

EDIT to remove implication that Sanger battled in the 1870s.

[George_S]

102. Comstock today (hey, why not? it worked before)

Feb. 1996

Here's a summary of this issue from a letter sent to all Members of the U.S. House by Representative Pat Schroeder:

Hidden within Section 507 of the Telecommunications Act of 1996 was a
provision that criminalizes speech about abortion on the Internet, by
providing for up to a $250,000 fine and/or five years in prison for
using interactive computer services to provide or receive information
about abortion. Section 507 was intended to criminalize obscenity on the Internet, not speech about abortion. Regrettably, Section 507 extends to the Internet not just the intended obscenity ban, but a much broader law from one of the most censorious times in our history -- a time when government power was used to fine and imprison people who gave out accurate birth control information. Let's honor our oath to uphold the Constitution by deleting the ban on abortion-related speech from the obscenity law.

The infamous Comstock Act, passed in 1873 at the urging of Anthony
Comstock, secretary of the Committee for the Suppression of Vice, made
it a crime to send material on birth control and abortion through the
mails. As a special unpaid agent of the Post Office Department, Comstock went after people like Margaret Sanger and her husband, William, because they campaigned for accurate birth control information. Margaret Sanger was arraigned on eight counts of violating the Comstock Act in 1914 for publishing newspaper articles on birth control; William Sanger was convicted in 1915 for selling a single copy of "Family Limitation," a pamphlet on birth control. As a result of Comstock's crusade, publishers were forced to censor their scientific and physiological works, druggists were punished for giving out information about contraception, and average Americans had to live with censorship of their mail, and without access to reliable information about contraception. Two years before his death in 1915, Comstock bragged that he had been responsible for the criminal conviction of enough people to fill a 61-coach passenger train.

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/elw05.htm (more)

[Skidmore]

5. I know how angry and disappointed I feel when women

(particularly women over the age of 50 or so) don't seem to remember what it was like in the not so distant past. I always find it interesting that women like Schlafly and Coulter, who wouldn't even be allowed a forum if not for feminism, screech on and on about how other women are so vile for exercising the same rights. Perhaps it needs to be thrown back at them in public that, given what the espouse, they should maybe sit down and shut up. Or better yet, why aren't they at home being good little wives and mothers?

I'm a wife and a mother, and the first time my husband pulled a "master" attitude on me, would be the last time.

[sariku]

6. It drives me nuts

The right-wingers talk about "political correctness" but it seems to me that they are the ones to push it the most. Being called a "feminist" is not politically correct - to which I say, fuck that.

[LisaLynne]

7. Drives me nuts, too.

I think it's because the RW has done such a good job of defaming the word. Some women feel they HAVE to say they aren't. But, the fact of the matter is, the old bumper sticker remains true: Feminism is the radical idea that women are people. That's how I look at it.

The trouble is that, like any discussion of racism or class, feminism makes people uncomfortable. It's a way of confronting and talking about something in our society that isn't right and that needs to be fixed.

As far as people like Schlafly and Coulter, who knows? There were African Americans who spoke out against civil rights. There are gay people who vote Republican. I don't understand it. It happens.

You could also post this in the women's issues forums. There are some great people over there who might have some ideas.

[Iceburg]

9. Tell her to take her pants off and get a decent crinoline;

return her drivers licence immediately;
start working for free;
refuse to see female doctors (and other female professionals);
and start making babies stat!;

[bleedingheart]

10. good response

[prolesunited]

11. I think she also should surrender

her right to vote. We haven't had it for that long anyway. How used to it could we have become.

[Iceburg]

13. Yes I thought about the vote ...but until Merika starts counting

them its hardly a setback. Who wants to stand in line for 12 hours in the pouring rain only to have yer tick disappear into the ether?

[pagerbear]

12. The same way I feel when I meet a Log Cabin Republican

...which, fortunately, is something I rarely do.

[UpsideDownFlag]

15. i think that they should get back in the kitchen, of course!

i kid. but seriously, women like that who say the support something, but are afraid of a label, arent helping anything.

[RaleighNCDUer]

16. They've been taught that all feminists are man-hating dykes.

Never mind that militant lesbians are but a small segment of the feminist community. I consider myself a feminist, and I'm not even female.

Here, again, we've let the other side frame the debate.

It seems like it would be an easy attitude to counter. Ask what they think of equal pay, the right to choose, subservience to men, all the classic feminist issues, and most will favor them. Then simply state, 'this is what feminism is'.

Ask how they feel about Limbaugh calling women 'femiNazis', then break it down. What do Nazis believe? Are those beliefs in line with feminist beliefs?

The stereotype is that men are rational, and women emotional. But my experience is that women can be reached on a rational level much more easily than men, because men have their manhood vested in their arguments and losing an argument is a threat to their very being. A man would rather go down fighting than admit to being wrong. That is why I believe women are the hope of the democratic party. IMHO.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

72. That's what I've found, too

When the Oregon Citizens' Alliance attempted to pass its first anti-gay initiative, I tried to honor my various gay and lesbian friends past and present by working against it.

I'd go right up and confront OCA reps who were handing out literature. The men would get all fuming and irrational, but the women were at least willing to consider my arguments. A lot of them were in the anti-gay movement because they had been told that all gays and lesbians were out to molest children.

Then I'd tell them about the heterosexual music teacher in my old school system who seduced girls ages 12 to 16 over a period of twenty years before he was finally fired. Was that okay?

They'd agree that it wasn't.

"So," I'd say, "maybe heterosexuals shouldn't teach school either. Maybe only eunuchs should teach school?"

That always got a laugh, and I hope I made them think. But I couldn't even talk to the men, because they'd start ranting.

[IHeart1993]

18. I attended a women's college as an undergraduate

St. Mary's College, where none of those women fit any stereotype.

As a graduate student, I went to a state university in a red state (I'm from a blue one) and I had to deal with some sexism. I also dropped out.

[prolesunited]

22. Did the sexism you percieved

have anything to do with your decision to drop out?

[seabeyond]

19. dumb shit, bought into the koolaide

exactly what it is saying, allowed male to contaminate word so we would not own to continue to be under their thumb. just plain stupid. why the hell did a bunch of women allow man to define the word.

about damn tired of a man talking for me. i can do it way way better. dont get, (oh ya i do) why anyone would think otherwise

[GiovanniC]

20. I Heard a Woman Who I Respect Greatly Say,

"Feminism is a cult" just the other day.

[Skidmore]

21. And where would she be now in her life without it?

[prolesunited]

23. Did she elaborate on what she meant by that statement?

I would try to understand their viewpoint better, but a sentiment like that would certainly diminish my opinion of someone.

[elehhhhna]

24. They must be asked to define Feminist. Proceed from there.

[prolesunited]

41. That's an excellent way to begin

It forces them to articulate the emotional connotation they have with the word and also gives you a point of reference for articulating your beliefs.

[Skidmore]

76. Sorry, I've been paying attention to other portions of this thread.

NOW has not lead in a long time, but rather has become an organization which reacts. There are no leaders which command the respect and fire up the goals and aspirations of women now. Like the Dems, the leadership needed to stay proactive. Both organization got lazy and forgot their roots. If you ask most young women today, I doubt they would know of NOW's existence nor of the work of the last century to secure women's rights.

[shrike]

25. I think that they do not know what feminism is

A lot of women are under the mistaken impression that feminism means burning your bra and not letting a man open a door for you. I usually try to educate them: ask them how they would feel if they could not own property, could not divorce, could not live alone, had to submit to either a father, brother or husband, could not vote, etc.

I recently finished a book on the Creek Indians. The Creeks (whose original name was the Muscogee) were matrilineal. Their women owned the family lodge, were allowed to divorce their husbands, although they did have to live under far more restrictions than did the men.

Many a white female captive opted to live out her life among the Creek rather than return to her own people, since her "Indian" life afforded her more freedom.

[Tuddie]

27. Reclaim the word: Use it like you mean it. n/t

[pmbryant]

28. The underlying attitude towards women's rights is more important, I think

As long as they are for equal pay and opportunity, I don't think it matters what they choose to call themselves or not.

I do think it is important for people who feel strongly about taking back the language to self-identify, proudly and often, as feminists. This is likely a key step in reclaiming the word. But even reclaiming the word isn't going to erase the strong negative feelings that the push for women's rights arouses in many people.

I'm currently reading the classic book "Backlash", published in 1991 but still extremely relevant. The author, Susan Faludi, proposes that the backlash against women's rights gets its strength from the attitude of a large fraction of men whose economic fortunes have been steadily declining since the 1970s. These men, with prodding from the media and the right wingers, have latched onto women as a scapegoat. (I believe it is essentially this same group of people who now also scapegoat "liberals" for all their ailments.)

So perhaps the best way to counteract the anti-feminist tide, would be to deprive the backlash of its grassroots by developing a strong economy for all. How to do that with the GOP in total control of the levers of government is obviously going to be a difficult problem.

As for Shlafly and Coulter, there have always been and there always will be women willing to play those roles. We just have to find a way to make them irrelevant.

Peter

[LisaLynne]

74. I'm reading Backlash, too!

For some reason, I just hadn't gotten around to it before. I think it is frighteningly still relevant and pretty much mind-blowing, even to those of us who lean liberal.

[hfojvt]

169. sorta wish I had kept my copy

I got a copy from a Library booksale, skimmed through it, reading a few chapters, then donated it to a Discover Shop.
However, wasn't this the book mentioned in "Sleepless in Seattle" where they said: "Nobody has read that book."

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

29. It means she wants to go fetch me a beer right now, gol dang it!

Sorry. I was just getting in touch with my inner troglodyte.

[RPM]

30. when she says that, I tell her to go make me a meal

OK, not really. But jeez - if that woman works, enjoys her ability to control pregnancy, votes or owns property I sure do look at her as if she is a ignorant piece of shit.

I usually just reply, "well, I am a feminist" even though I am a man.

Usually gets some response like "are you a lesbian too?"

This is where the middle finger comes in handy

[amazona]

31. i just assume that they are stupid, and it's usually true

If a person won't stand up for her own kind, then she is a pretty worthless excuse for a human being. If she wants to brag about her lack of knowledge or ability to stand up for her own kind, then it's even worse, because it just makes her look a fool and a dupe. Impossible to respect these women. The word doesn't need to be reclaimed. There will always be brown-nosers who would rather kiss up to a powerful butt than stand up for themselves. If such brown-nosers want to brag about it, then it just shows them for what they are.

[pmbryant]

35. Supporting equal pay and equal opportunity...

To me, that counts as "standing up for her own kind", whether she chooses to call herself a feminist or not.

The "brown-nosers" (a la Shlafly, Coulter, et al) are a completely different breed.

Then, there are the "Mother Jones types" (to coin a phrase): Mother Jones was a labor organizer and rabble-rouser in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Not even close to anyone's idea of a "brown-noser". But I read the other day that she opposed suffrage, saying something like: "You don't need the vote to raise hell." Certainly similar attitudes must exist today. How do we categorize people like that?

Peter

[prolesunited]

38. Hi, Peter!

:hi:

As you can see, I'm at it again. ;-) Just taking a short break from cleaning the basement. :-( I'll get to your note in a bit. Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving.

[pmbryant]

51. Hi proles

Hijacking your own thread? :spank: :-)

I visited the Women's Museum in Dallas on Friday and learned the bit about Mother Jones (alas they didn't have much more detail than that about her). The concept of a "Women's Museum" is great, I think, but I do have some quibbles with how it is implemented there, but who am I to judge? Especially since they are apparently in a rather dire funding position. What they do have is certainly worth visiting.

I don't recall seeing a great many men there, unfortunately.

Here is their website if you or anyone else is interested: http://www.thewomensmuseum.org/

Are there other museums like this elsewhere in the country?

:shrug:

Peter

[readmoreoften]

214. i used to live across the street from the Women's museum

funny

[skippysmom]

32. I hate when women say that

especially women of my generation (early 30s). We gained so much because of the women's movement and Title IX and the rest. I went to a women's college, where feminism is definitely okay, and I had a roommate who insisted she wasn't a feminist. When I asked why not, she said, "oh, I don't want to be drafted." A lot of ignorance out there.

Now, to your questions:

What are the worst stereotypes of feminists?

Hairy, man-hating lesbians. I'll never understand people's obsession with the hairy part. I'm a straight married woman, and with my legs hidden under pants or tights for the winter, my legs haven't been shaved in a while. Who gives a crap?

Are those assessments accurate?

As with any stereotype, there is a smidgen of truth there. Yeah, there are feminists who never shave. Yeah, there are feminists who hate men. Yeah, there are lesbians who are feminists. But there are lots of feminists who don't fit the stereotype, too. But more to the point, who cares?

Do you think it is important for people self-identify as feminists?

Yes, because it's an acknowledgement that women's issues are important and that women owe a lot to the entire movement.

Why would women, like Schlafly and Coulter, advocate for men's right to control and dominate?

They hate women, and identify with men. They are convinced that they, the "strong women", are the exception rather than the rule.

How can we reclaim the word?

Use it proudly. And I like seeing the "This is what a feminist looks like" t-shirts.

[prolesunited]

33. Thanks for all of your responses

And I love that campaign. I think it is very


Here's a link to where you can purchase the shirts:
https://feminist.org/store/searchresult_tshirt.aspx?CategoryID=14.

[Avalux]

34. I don't like the word "feminist"

I am my own woman and I demand equality. However, I will not call myself a feminist; I am not comfortable with that label.

[prolesunited]

36. Can you please explain the reasons why?

Are you a person who eschews labels in general or is there something about this one in particular?

Do you feel that individually demanding equality is as effective as forming a united front? Would you as an individual been able to make the same strides as the women's movement?

[Avalux]

77. Labels in general are not my thing -

they are restrictive and lead to stereotypes. I prefer to think of myself as an individual with unlimited options and I'm not willing to paint myself into a corner.
That said; I am fully supportive of the women's movement, and have on occassion been active for the cause. One must realize that people who come together to form a united front, to work towards a common goal (such as equality), are often very different.

[prolesunited]

104. I will definitely agree with you

on the problems with labels. However, it is often a useful way of organizing ideas and principles and help people find common ground.

[DemExpat]

142. This is my stance on this issue as well...

I have always been uncomfortable with the label of femininst, as with any label, and will fight for equal rights and equal freedoms for everyone.

Besides the women who fought so hard for voting, legal and educational rights, I do not identify with most versions of feminism - as with most every group/organization, I support some things but not all, and certainly not all attitudes.

DemEx

[jdj]

172. many versions, one movement: civil rights.

I define as feminist any woman who has done things in her life that were illegal for women to do when this country was founded. Once she has done one of these things, she can never not be a feminist, at least in this country. I should say then, that an
American feminist is a woman who has done the following, even if only once:

voted
used birth control
had extra-marital sex
gotten a divorce
had an abortion
achieved or attempted any post-secondary education
held a job outside the home
owned property


if anyone has any other things to add, please post.

Any other "version" of feminism besides a push for civil rights is usually puke spin.

[StatGirl]

37. "I'll be a post-feminist in the post-patriarchy"

"many times this is followed by 'but' and they continue on to say they are for equal pay or equal opportunity."

My response to that would be, "Then you're a feminist".

[okieinpain]

39. AAR is a good start, but we need some one on the boob tube too.

[Skidmore]

42. Who would you suggest? I simply don't want to see anyone from

NOW as a spokesperson for women anymore. I think they have pretty much sold out women in the same way the Democratic Party has sold out the worker.

[pmbryant]

46. How so?

I don't know much about NOW. What are your concerns about what they've done?

:shrug:

Peter

[Fleshdancer]

40. It drives me nuts when I hear women say that

Now that I'm back in college, I hear that from young women all the time. My response is always "do you think you should be paid less because of your genitalia?" they say no of course and then I ask "do you think you should be treated less than a man just because you're a woman?" They say no again and then I respond "well, guess what? You're a feminist". I have to then define the word just about every damn time and also inform them that men can be feminists too.

I want to start making t-shirts with nothing on it except definitions of words. One shirt would define feminist and other would define liberal.

[cags]

43. I'M NOT A FEMINIST!!!

Topics like this always inspire me to leave lurkdom.

I will tell you what I dislike about most feminists and what I think the word should mean.

I'm so sick of the "go back to the kitchen" or "have some more babies" comments made by people who are truly uninformed and closed minded.

The real problem is the value we place on our choices. Feminism should be the freedom to make our own life choices without judgment from others who make different choices. It shouldn't matter if we choose to be a stay at home mom, or corporate executives as long as we are happy with our choices.

I am a stay at home mom by choice, my sister is a corporate executive by choice, and both are equally valuable.

I am not dominated by my husband, we are equals in our relationship, We have made the decision together that we do not want someone else raising our children, others may not feel like that and that is okay.

I am an educated woman who will be working soon because both of my children are now in school all day, and there is no way that I will be staying home to clean all day. But my job will come second to my primary focus. And that is my choice

After tons of research on the subject I feel that "MOST" (yes there are exceptions to every rule) women are better able to be the primary caregivers to their children and that is not discounting a fathers role in any way.
Many mothers do not want to give up the responsibilities and joys of their children's care to others.

It is the value placed on the job of caring for our children that is whats wrong with the idea of feminism.

If feminists would embrace the value of women who choose to be a stay at home mother it wouldn't be such a dirty word.

There is more than one way to live.

Just so there are no misconceptions about me, I am a democrat, somewhat liberal, born and raised in California newly transplanted in Texas, non religious, college educated (4.0 GPA), White woman with biracial and gay family members, currently a stay at home mother and proud of every inch of it.

[Skidmore]

45. No one is denigrating your choice. It is the choice that

feminism supports. My daughter is a stay-at-home mom. I want her and my granddaughter to have the CHOICE. That is the meaning of feminism. There was a time that women did not have choices that were separate from those made for them by their fathers and husbands, and is the absence of both of those in their lives--perhaps their brothers or uncles.

Women fought to have the right to a CHOICE.

[cags]

50. But it is denegrated with every "Go back to the kitchen" comment nt

[Skidmore]

53. I don't see it that way.

I know when I say something like that, I am recalling a time when choices were very limited for women. I don't want that to be the ONLY choice for any woman. I'm happy it is one of the choices available to you, and wouldn't want it any other way if that makes you happy. Motherhood is a wonderful job. Been there, still do that. Perhaps it's an age thing. I remember the limited choices my mother had. My grandmother had many fewer choices.

[cattleman22]

165. I disagree with you

Whenever anyone makes a comment like "Then go back to the kitchen" they are disrepecting all of the women who actively made the choice to stay home and raise their children.

[jdj]

178. I don't think so.

what they are saying is if you don't claim to be a feminist, then it's quite audacious for you to rest on the laurels of women who have marched and fought and been imprisoned and even died for, and for the lack of, these rights. Women suffered and died, and suffer and die today in this world for a lack of these rights. As to the poster above's declaration of non-feminisism, wouldn't women in some restrictive (like muslim fundamentalist)countries just LOVE to have the luxury and privilege of making such an uninformed statement.

This issue framing problem comes from trusting the words of the right wing over women themselves, just like dems suffered so much under the banner of "moral values" this year (supposedly).

As to the non-feminist, any woman with an education is a feminist. So there.

[cags]

184. Its OK to benefit from the contributions of others

I posted this below but I think it fits here too.

"I feel the feminist movement has done great things for womens rights, doesn't mean I call myself a feminist. But I do benefit

I feel our soldiers have done great things to protect us, doesn't mean I call myself a soldier. But I do benefit

Inventors have done great things to improve our quality of life, doesn't mean I call myself an inventor. But I do benefit

Its OK to recieve benefits in this world from the contributions of others. Everyone contributes in some way or another.

I am thankful for the contributions of others and I find my own ways to contribute

I'm not framing any issue by the words of the right wing. I think I've made my point clearly just from the responses in this thread

[jdj]

187. I suppose you'll be completely understanding if these

hard won rights get taken away??

After all, you never called yourself a feminist.

You are one, of course, you just don't have the balls to own up to it.

Well, maybe if the right wing has it's way, one day, with thanks to complacent folks like yourself, it won't be an issue any more.

[cags]

194. Just because I say I'm not a feminist doesn't mean I think womens rights

should be taken away.

And I think I do have balls to state in this environment that I'm not a feminist.

You don't have to be a feminist to be supportive of womens rights.

The word doesn't mean what it used to, for me anyway.

For me its like those people who say they believe the bible word for word, but in reality they pick and choose what they like the best or what suits them and forget about the rest.

I don't want to turn my eyes away and ignore the things that don't really fit in with the message.

[Susang]

196. Actually, you do have to be a feminist to support women's rights

That's kind of the definition of feminism and thus by extension "feminist".

Saying you support women's rights but are not a feminist cannot be an accurate statement. That's like saying you believe in Christ but you're not a Christian.

[cags]

198. I just don't see it that way

[Susang]

200. Most dictionaries do

While language is fluid and changes, the definition of feminism has remained pretty constant for these many years, no matter how badly Rush Limbaugh & Co try to besmirch the meaning of the word.

If you don't believe that Webster's et al is correct in their definition, what exactly does the word "feminist" mean? And why is it apparently so unpleasant to you?

[cags]

203. The word is not unpleasant, Its the mindset of many of the people who

associate themselves with it.

I don't believe the movement today is the same as it used to be.
I don't believe it is all inclusive of all women.

Even though I agree with many (not all) of the feminist issues I most certainly would not be included or respected in a roomful of feminist activists

[sonicx]

211. do you refuse to call yourself a Democrat or Liberal...

because there are bad liberals? (there are)

[cags]

227. No I don't,

The bad liberals aren't alienating me and my lifestyle choices like the bad feminists are.

[Name removed]

232. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sonicx]

244. the people that "made fun of you" in this thread...

are liberals AND feminists. are you going to stop calling yourself a liberal cuz they "made fun of you"?

don't leave yet.

[cags]

249. They weren't making fun as liberals, they weren't liberal jokes

[sonicx]

251. yes, they were "liberal jokes"

would a non-liberal feminist make those jokes?

btw, most who are liberals at DU act 'as liberals' while posting in the GD and GD politics forums and have that label supercede others. Therefore, liberals were "making fun of you."

[cags]

254. Thats just doesn't make sense

If you told those same jokes to Corporate "Liberal" Working woman or man, somehow I just don't think they would have the same affect

They are not liberal jokes

[sonicx]

259. just to be clear...

are you saying "what if jokes were made ABOUT corporate working people?" I'm not sure...

[Djinn]

208. actually you CAN believe in Christ without being a Christian

you can beleive he existed and preached without being a Christian - Muslims for example beleive this, you can be an atheist and beleive in Christ.

[Susang]

219. I think you knew what I meant

When I said "believe in" Christ.

[cattleman22]

223. the word "Feminist" means different things to different people

To me the word has been tainted by feminists who claimed in the early 1990's that real feminists would never eat meat and that anyone who ate meat was putting women down by doing so.

[jdj]

237. no it doesn't.

it means civil rights for women.

[Bridget Burke]

68. You need to work on your OWN self worth.

Don't blame the right-wing media definition of Feminism for your own problems. You're lucky to be able to afford to stay at home with your children; many women would love to but don't have that choice. And your excuse for staying at home denigrates all of these women; they aren't good mothers & their children will not turn out well.

It's great that your kids have a stay at home nanny. However, whether they're boys or girls, they also need role models of women who do something in the world. Let's hope they'll get to see that side of you, as well.

[cags]

78. You make my point perfectly, Its an excuse that I stay home not a choice

In your own words. You equate my childrens mother with a nanny.

I never once said working women are not good mothers and that thier children would not turn out well.

I said I PERSONALLY did not want someone else to raise my children. I wanted to be the one they spent the most time with.

I think some mothers are better mothers if they work, it all depends on the individual.

My children did see me work while my husband stayed home with them and went to school, then he went to work while I went to school and stayed home. We did not want our children in daycare and that was our personal choice. It may not be the choice of others and that is okay.

I do not denegrate the choices of other women and I do not want my choices denegrated. I don't feel one choice is better than the other just different. My choices are what is best for MY family. They aren't the best choices for every family.

Your attitude is the reason many women are turned off by the word feminist.

[baba]

136. Your assumptions

You assume that if mothers work, that automatically their children are "raised by someone else." There are many moms and dads out there that design a system that works for them. This could include one or both of them working part time, or working different shifts. Families can get creative. I work nights, my husband works days. When we have kids (none yet) they will almost always be with a primary caregiver.

Whether you intended it or not, your implication was that children with 2 working parents are always raised by others, and that you judge this as inferior. I would argue that many parents do not primarily rely on day care. In addition, your implication that parents who do utilize day care are poor parents indicates that you DO consider your choice to be superior and ARE denigrating the choices of others.

BTW, what about gay couples?

[cags]

151. You are all around wrong about my assumptions

I never once said parents who utilize daycare are bad parents. I specifically said my choices are what is best for my family and not right for every family.

I never judged any parents situation as inferior to mine. I would never think that. I feel there are many different ways to raise children, and unless you are hurting your child, there is no right or wrong way to raise a child.

Of course many parents do not rely primary on daycare and many parents do. Its not right for my family period.

And about gay couples, I think they are no different than any other couple and should be allowed to raise children with the same protections as heterosexual couples or single parents.

I think recognizing gay marriage can only benefit the children in these families.

[jdj]

182. this is a red herring.

it's a racist/ classist argument which in reality only applies to middle class white women. More minorities are getting the privilege of stay-at-home motherhood, but truthfully, in this country, working class white women and all but the most privileged of minority women have ALWAYS HAD TO WORK, either outside the home, or in the fields.

My great-grandmother did, which meant my grandmother had to raise her little brother and cook for the family starting at the age of 4 or 5, that is one of her earliest memories, of having to drag a chair over to the sink to stand on so she could prepare meals. My lineage on both sides is very harsh, with child abuse and alcoholism rampant. The women suffragists that have been fighting for women's civil rights in this country gave you the life you have, and the position of making these wonderful choices for your family. I get such inspiration from reading your post, I'm just sad that you've bought into a right-wing media manufactured definition of feminism. The status quo decries any movement that threatens the status quo, it's called self-preservation. If you have "made the choice" to stay home with your kids, then you have feminism to thank for that choice.

Another way of looking at it is gay pride marches. When I've been to these I've always thought it interesting to stand in the middle of thousands or hundreds of thousands of utterly unspectacular, average boring people. Yet the next day if you pick up the paper or watch the news, you will see only drag queen or radical faeries with tambourines. The media did the same thing with feminists, it took the ones that looked the least "attractive" to the het. male, and pasted this face over your average woman. Isn't it just a shame that all the work of so many woman for so many years is being buried under judgements of "attractiveness" and accusations of "man-hating".

[cags]

188. I haven't bought into anything from the right wing

I've made my statements based on what I have heard from other women. The posts in this thread alone have proven my point.

Again I'll say this

I feel the feminist movement has done great things for womens rights, doesn't mean I call myself a feminist. But I do benefit

I feel our soldiers have done great things to protect us, doesn't mean I call myself a soldier. But I do benefit

Inventors have done great things to improve our quality of life, doesn't mean I call myself an inventor. But I do benefit

Its OK to recieve benefits in this world from the contributions of others. Everyone contributes in some way or another.

I am thankful for the contributions of others and I find my own ways to contribute

[jdj]

192. it doesn't matter what you call yourself, because you are a feminist

you are too spineless to admit it, but that's okay, as they say, "not every pot can stand the heat of the kiln".

I don't know many soldiers running around refusing to say they are soldiers, or inventors who deny being inventors, but that's to be expected in a male dominated society with a media that can give anything a bad spin.

[cags]

201. Your missing what I said

You have benefited and have been given rights because of what soldiers did in the past. Are you a soldier too?

You have benefited from the what others have done in the past. Does that mean you subscribe to every movement that has benefited you?

[sonicx]

212. apples and oranges. You have to put on the uniform to be a soldier

you don't have to be an activist to be a feminist. Feminism is a set of ideas. Being a soldier isn't. If you have the ideas of feminism, you are one (a feminist). You don't have to contribute anything.

[cags]

226. No I'm not, Yes you are, No I'm not, Yes you are, No I'm Not, Yes you are

I'm getting tired of this back and forth.

We just disagree, my definition of a feminist is not the same as others.

I don't agree with the whole set of ideas of feminism so I must not be one.

So there

[jdj]

233. honeychild, if your fanny got trucked over to an islamic fundie

country, you'd own your previous feminism real fast.

I'm getting tired of hearing spoiled, pampered women publicly disown something they secretly support because of their own cowardness.

Grow a spine. For your children's sake.

[cags]

250. Name calling doesn't get you anywhere, I'm neither spoiled or

pampered. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I have no spine. And my children will be just fine without your advice.

What if I said I wasn't pro-choice would you still call me a feminist

[sonicx]

252. Yes, you can be feminist and pro-life.

[cags]

255. So do you think all women are feminists?

What are the rules for being a feminist?

What would make someone in your eyes not a feminist?

[sonicx]

260. first of all...

about abortion...there are many people out there that do believe it is murder (i don't), so it would make sense for them to not want people to choice to murder. they can still be feminists.

as for who would not be a feminist?...hmm...someone who wants to force women to say home (yes, they are out there), wants to pay them less for the same jobs as men or not even give them the chance to get that job, wants to keep rigid 'gender roles,' wants the wife to 'serve' the husband (and not do the same in return)...etc.

[sonicx]

246. it doesn't matter if your definition is different (i don't think it is)

You are still a feminist. Not every feminist agress on everything (again, i don't think you're any different from any other feminist because of your choice to be a SAHM).

Most liberals don't agree with everything that's "Liberism." But they still call themselves 'liberals' anyway. why?

(don't leave. i'd like to hear your answer).

[cags]

253. I've been trying to give a reason to the people that just don't understand

why a woman would not want to call herself a feminist other than just being a stupid woman.

Its because of the attitude and humor from many feminists directed at women like myself. Why would we want to subscribe to a group where we are always the butt of the joke.

Liberals aren't alienating my specific demographic

I'll ask you this too.

Would you still call me a feminist if I said I was not pro-choice?

[sonicx]

256. yes, you can be pro-life and a feminist (more inside)

you can be a feminist and be a SAHM. Like i said, sometimes people within a group can say stupid things about others in the group. But it doesn't mean you aren't part of the group.

Like what goes around here at DU sometimes. Sometimes people get out of hand with comments critizing religion and it offends DU Christians many times. But those offended people aren't going to stop calling themselves liberals cuz a few make dumb comments.

btw, i disgree when you say SAHM are always being criticized. There are plenty of SAHM DUers. Offensive jokes are ususally made when people are angry at someone or some group and they aren't really thinking (like when some DUers make offensive comments at christians).

[Susang]

193. Logic is always helpful

Do you agree or disagree with this? I do. That makes me a "feminist" by definition. It really is that easy. Your other examples were disingenuous, but I think you probably already knew that.

Main Entry: fem·i·nism
Pronunciation: 'fe-m&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests
- fem·i·nist /-nist/ noun or adjective
- fem·i·nis·tic /"fe-m&-'nis-tik/ adjective

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=feminist

[cattleman22]

166. I agree n/t

[Djinn]

177. that was kind of nasty

I will never be a stay at home mum - children annoy me too much and I don't know if I'll ever have them, but to call a women who stays home to look after her under school aged children a nanny is as insulting to her choice as referring to a women who works a "part time mother"

[KnowerOfLogic]

135. "Go back to the kitchen" implies pre-feminist *no choice.*

You *have* a choice now, thanks to feminists.

[cally]

47. WE DO!!!

I was also a stay at home Mom because it was right for my family and me. Feminism is about honoring choices and respecting women's roles. I'm sure you are more respected as a stay at home Mom because of feminism. We talk about the work done by women at home and how valuable it is. I really don't understand why you don't consider yourself a feminist.

[Fleshdancer]

48. what feminist doesn't embrace the value of SAHM's?

I guess there are some who exist, but I've heard this before and yet I've never witnessed it myself. Who told you that women shouldn't stay at home with their kids if that's what they choose to do?

[cags]

52. Although I respect these women greatly, Hillary Clinton and Teresa Kerry

have both made those same backhanded comments.

Hillary when she said "she wouldn't stay home and bake cookies all day"

And Teresa said "She didn't think Laura Bush ever had a real job"

Its portrayed in TV all the time, and art imitates life.

[Logansquare]

61. Please stop and think about what was really said here

Hillary Clinton answered defensively after being needled about her commitment as a mother--she chose be an attorney, and the reporter in question had the nerve to imply that she was somehow a bad mother. Do you perhaps think women who work outside the home are bad mothers?

Teresa Heinz-Kerry was clearly referring to Laura Bush's role as a First Lady, not to her past as a teacher and librarian. Laura Bush has been one of the most inactive First Ladies in history. Just compare her to Ladybird Johnson or Rosalie Carter if you think I'm being a little harsh.

Neither women made prudent statements, IMO. They were both correct, but Americans are very hard on women who express strong opinions, or who don't fit the model of the perfect, passive wife and mother.

[cags]

70. I do not think working mothers are bad parents, and I think your

perception is wrong on their comments.

Hillary said it like it would be a bad thing if she did choose to stay home and bake cookies.

And Teresa was not referring to Laura's role in the white house, because she later apologized for the comment and said she had forgotten that Laura was a teacher.

I think some mothers are better mothers because they work and some aren't it depends on the individual.

I think that most stay at home mothers today are far from passive and perfect. I personally don't know any that are.

[cally]

65. I agree that the media portrays SAHM badly

but what does that have to do with being a feminist? H. Clinton and T.H.K are both admirable women and I respect and honor them. I hated both those comments and thought they were crazy to say them. Again, what does that have to do with being a feminist? I could bring up worse comments from RW whackos and feminist haters. Why choose to disassociate yourself from feminism because of a few comments from admirable women that you disagree with. Both have apologized for those remarks.

[JerseygirlCT]

149. Well, I've got to tell you

baking cookies isn't exactly tops on my list of important things to do, and I am currently a sahm. Caring for my children is what I do now. I'm not a housewife, married to my home, I'm a mother, and fortunate enough at the moment to be at home. My priority is my kids right now, but I've been a f/t working mom as well.

And Teresa explained her statement, which if you'd read it in its entirety, was not at all dismissive of Laura Bush or her choices. I think you're looking for insults where they don't exist.

[prolesunited]

55. Glad you came out from lurkdom to respond

I'm sorry if someone made you feel poorly about your choice to stay at home, but I don't believe feminism is about *forcing* women to be in the workforce or looking down on those who opt to stay at home.

The operative word here is CHOICE. There are many paths for women to follow and it is up to you to decide. It shouldn't be society or your partner dictating your path in life. It is feminism that has opened up those worlds of possibilities.

We still have people wanting to turn back the clock on women. On Sunday, Falwell was on one of the talking head shows saying that women must submit to the will of their husbands.

Is that the kind of world that you want for your daughter, one in which her choices are taken away from her? Don't you want a world in which she can follow the path that is right for her, free from discrimination and societal pressures.

That is why feminism continues to be relevant and why we can't turn our back on the movement.

I can't help but think of my mother. She loved working and married later in life, just before she could be deemed a spinster. She fell into her expected role of being a subservient wife and dutiful mother. And she had a completely miserable life. And don't think it didn't have an impact, her hostility and depression was unleashed on all of us.

There was a brief period, when all of the children were older, many even out of the house, that she went back to work. She killed herself to keep up with everything around the house just the way my dad expected, but I had never seen her happier. She loved her freedom and independence. My dad disapproved, though, and made her quit.

I'm sorry that she did not have the same choices that I enjoy today thanks to the feminists who paved the way.

I'm happy for you and glad you have the freedom to follow your own path. I really don't think we're on opposite sides here.

[cags]

62. No one could make me feel poorly for my choice, they don't have that

kind of power.

Yes you are right what feminism has done for women, and I am very proud of the women who have fought to give us the rights we have today, but thier is an underlying belief among many (not all) feminists who look down on women who still choose traditonal roles.

I don't believe the Jerry Falwells of the world will ever be able to take away what we have gained.

I can also give my own mother as an example, all she ever wanted was to be a mother in a traditional role but was forced out into the working world due to her poor choice in men (3 marriages 8 children later) and she was miserable.

I feel for your mom as I do my own because she couldn't live the life she wanted.

I think we agree mostly too,

A few bad apples can spoil the bunch

[Kitka]

57. Feminism doesn’t require us to check our opinions at the door

only to fight to make damned sure that choices are available. You seem to require people view all choices EQUALLY, when in reality nothing is that simple. People have opinions.

I will say, though, that I NEVER heard this ‘go back to the kitchen’ or ‘go have some more babies’ type of comments you’re talking about. The only negative comments I’ve ever received are those about me going back to work. I think the commonality of such comments is largely a myth, TBH.

Oh, and just for the record, I’ve been both a stay at home mom, and a working mom, and loved both for different reasons. I’m not a huge advocate of either.

[cags]

63. Those comments have been made in this thread nt

[prolesunited]

71. You know

I went back and read the whole thread and I just couldn't find them. The only mentions were clearly made in jest. Could you please point out to me where you found offense?

[cags]

83. Heres a few of the jokes

Tell her to take her pants off and get a decent crinoline;

Edited on Mon Nov-29-04 09:13 AM by Iceburg
return her drivers licence immediately;
start working for free;
refuse to see female doctors (and other female professionals);
and start making babies stat!;


UpsideDownFlag (1000+ posts) Mon Nov-29-04 09:26 AM
Response to Original message

15. i think that they should get back in the kitchen, of course!

seabeyond (1000+ posts) Mon Nov-29-04 09:41 AM
Response to Original message

19. dumb shit, bought into the koolaide

Jeff in Cincinnati (1000+ posts) Mon Nov-29-04 10:37 AM
Response to Original message

29. It means she wants to go fetch me a beer right now, gol dang it!

RPM (771 posts) Mon Nov-29-04 10:38 AM
Response to Original message

30. when she says that, I tell her to go make me a meal

amazona (1000+ posts) Mon Nov-29-04 10:43 AM
Response to Original message

31. i just assume that they are stupid, and it's usually true

Of course they are in jest, because you couldn't honestly say it and get away with it. But notice there are no "jokes" aimed in the opposite direction.

I'm certainly not offended, it takes more than a few stereotype jokes to offend me.

I am just trying to explain why some women don't accept the feminist label. It is that part of it that bothers some women.

[jdj]

190. no "jokes" in the opposite direction?

ever heard the label "feminazi"

"man-hating dyke", "castrating bitch", "witholding bitch", jezebel, etc.

here's one from Rush:

"women invented feminism so ugly broads could have access to the mainstream"...

[cags]

197. But these jokes aren't coming from the feminists, Thats my point

[jdj]

234. oh, you mean the jokes coming from feminists who swear they

are not feminist...like Coulter, and Schafly
and you?

[pmbryant]

238. Are you saying...

Shlafly is a feminist?

[jdj]

239. absolutely.

as I said in my previous posts, a feminist is a woman who does things that women were not previously allowed to do

If she has ever

voted
owned property
had extra-marital sex
pursued post-secondary education
held a job outside the home
driven a car
taken any form of birth control, even once
had an abortion


etc, etc, she's a feminist.

a non-feminist believes women should have civil right equal to that of men, therefore, she would refrain from doing all these things in protest of feminism

[pmbryant]

241. That's not my definition, for what it's worth

I think that in practice the word "feminist" has generally had a political angle to it, and not just a practical one.

(Sorry for missing your previous posts; a lot to read in here!)

[cags]

257. Well since your definition of feminist is every woman than I must be one

In your eyes

[sonicx]

261. actually, Ann Coulter's not a feminist...

she doesn't think women should vote.

[Scout]

106. point them out please?

In this thread...

who has told you to go back to the kitchen?
who has told you to have more babies?

[cags]

111. Check my post above

[Scout]

113. misinterpret sarcasm much?

c'mon, I know it can be difficult to interpret conversational nuance on an internet chat board ... but you don't really think those comments were serious?

methinks thou dost protest too much.

[cags]

116. Of course I know they weren't serious, you miss the point

The jokes don't go both ways. They are only directed at one group of women. I can tell stereotypical jokes with the best of them. They don't offend me in any way.

But a whole group of women don't want to part of a group where they are always the butt of the joke.

[Scout]

117. "The jokes don't go both ways."

are you trying to say that no jokes are made about feminists?

[cags]

118. Not by feminists about feminists

[Scout]

132. so SAHMs are making jokes about their group?

you know, by SAHMs about SAHMs?
I never hear any of those jokes....

[cags]

152. Well I consider myself part of the SAHM group. nt

[Kitka]

153. That's bullshit.

Yes, they do go both ways. Obviously you don't hear it because you're not the group the other type of joke is directed at. You're looking for excuses now.

[cags]

156. Prove it!

First you don't know me so you don't know what groups I fit into.

And I don't need an excuse for anything.

So prove that it goes both ways
Try to find one joke in this thread directed at working mothers,
I can count at least five directed at SAHM's and housewives

[sonicx]

247. Hey cags

You must have missed the jokes made at Condi Rice and Karen Hughes(both here and elsewhere) for not being married.

[Book Lover]

90. I'm not upset with your choice to stay at home

I'm upset with your choice to conclude that staying home is not feminist. If you aren't a feminist, i.e., if you are sexist, then you believe that it is your duty, not your choice to stay at home and never leave once the kids are grown. If you think it is your duty to do only wife and mother chores, then you are not a feminist.

[cags]

94. I never concluded that, I am explaining why some women are turned off by

the feminist label.

SAHM's can be feminists and working mothers can be sexist, but you don't have to be one or the other.

If you choose to stay at home "and do ONLY wife and mother chores" the rest of your life that is not sexist it is your choice, unless you feel trapped doing it. You are not sexist if all you ever want to do is stay home and take care of your house until you die.

Many feminist women look down on women who choose to SAH whether they are mothers or not.

I believe the feminist movement could do a great service to itself, if it embraced all women and all thier choices.

You can say they do that in theory but in reality they don't

[Book Lover]

96. You certainly given me food for thought

Because, to be completely honest, my initial reactions to your posts have been along the negative lines you've pointed out above. I want to think about what you've said. Thanks for your reply.

Full disclosure - I am a working mom of a beautiful 2 year old who is taken care of by his father, my darling husband.

[seaj11]

97. I realize I just came in on this discussion...

but I still don't see how you can say that feminists don't "in reality" embrace all women and all their choices, when several people here have said that they accept your choice. And how can you claim that "Many feminist women look down on women who choose to SAH whether they are mothers or not"? Have you taken a poll?

[cags]

100. And several have made fun and called me basically a nanny and that I don't

have self worth,

That is the kind of thing that turns women away.

I don't believe all feminists feel this way but many do.
No one is making fun of the women that work, only the ones that choose to stay home.

[prolesunited]

101. You have an amazingly large chip on your shoulder

To take any of these comments out of context and act as if they are personally directed at you. They weren't. We don't even know you.

The comments that have been directed at YOU have been quite supportive of you and the choices that you have made.

Frankly, the only person who has been combative and hostile on this thread has been you. So, where are you coming up with this stereotype about feminists?

[cags]

109. No chip, But aren't the comments in this thread directed in general to

women like me who say they are not a feminist.

Isn't that the point of this thread? I don't feel I have been hostile or combative in any way. I have just expressed a reason why some women do not call themselves feminists other than just being stupid.


A few comments were directed just at me and I feel I responded in a respectful manner.

Example
"You need to work on your OWN self worth."

"It's great that your kids have a stay at home nanny. However, whether they're boys or girls, they also need role models of women who do something in the world. Let's hope they'll get to see that side of you, as well."

I have no stereotype about feminists, I see all people as individuals, there are feminists that have the right idea about choice and feminists who don't. Its the ones who don't that put a bad taste in the mouth.

[shrike]

115. Maybe you need to distinguish between feminists and feminism

I used to feel as you do -- until I realized that if it weren't for feminism I wouldn't have the right to vote, choose a career (the practice of law or medicine was "unfeminine"), own property, get a divorce if I wished, or practice birth control.

I once talked with a man who'd visited an African country. He saw many middle-aged and older women on the streets, begging. "Those women are widows," he was told. In this culture, women were not allowed to own property or inherit. If their sons refused to take care of them after their husbands died, they were penniless and on the street.

You are right that some feminists have given the rest of us a bad name. But all in all, it was a damned fine movement.

[cags]

119. I agree 100%

[jdj]

189. some republicans give republicans a bad name

do other republicans refuse to identify as such? Usually not.

I call this the "Princess Leia" syndrome, and it's when women use male standards to judge ourselves. We grow up in this male oriented culture where even neutral characters in mythology and works of fiction are male, and there is usually only one female character, or two at most, a good one (Mary) and a bad one (Mary Magdalene). All other characters are male, even if it is understood they are genderless. So we grow up beleiving in only one representative female image, and a woman had better try to be the one and if there happen in this instance to be two, she had damn well better disassociate herself from the whore figure if she wants attention (a la economic support) from men.

Women who are too skeered to call themselves feminists while gorging at the trough of feminism need to grow a spine and tell the truth.

[Djinn]

179. I don't think she has at all

people have been narky as hell towards her, and that's coming from a woman who really doesn't like kids and wont ever be a stay at home mother.

She certainly isn't the only one being hostile and combative, her posts are a lot more reasoned than some of the responses.

Some women don't call themselves feminsts - jesus shoot them now that's one choice they're not allowed to make?

[cags]

181. Thank you

[Djinn]

207. no probs

I find this thread funny - it's hard for me to articulate exactly why I'm not overly comfortable with calling myself a feminist - have this argument with my sister ALL the time - but the some of the santimonious responses here have something to do with it, and the almost fascistic "you must call yourself what I call you otherwise you're ignorant" line, it seems to defeat the purpose of choice.

Apparently I can't work for women's issues (I have a long history with reproductive choice and domestic violence activism) unless I call myself a feminist and if I don't call myself a feminist I'm just "taking the benefits" of other women's work.

If someone else wants to call me a feminist that's fine, I'm not offended by the term I just don't feel I identify with it overly.

It's my choice.

[Kitka]

154. Well, you’re making that assumption based on

a small exposure to the larger feminist movement. You absolutely cannot make an educated assumptions that “MOST” feminists look down at stay at home moms. That is you projecting and making a generalization. Interesting, given the fact that that’s the same damn thing you’re complaining they do to you.

[cags]

159. I must have hit a nerve

You have no idea what my exposure is to the "larger feminist movement." You don't know who I know

I can make educated assumptions and I did not say most I said many.

I made no generalizations at all, if you have read this whole thread you would know that.

I simply gave one reason why some women don't want to be called a feminist.

I feel the feminist movement has done great things for womens rights, doesn't mean I call myself a feminist. But I do benefit

I feel our soldiers have done great things to protect us, doesn't mean I call myself a soldier. But I do benefit

Inventors have done great things to improve our quality of life, doesn't mean I call myself an inventor. But I do benefit

Its OK to recieve benefits in this world from the contributions of others. Everyone contributes in some way or another.

I am thankful for the contributions of others and I find my own ways to contribute

[sonicx]

213. Again, apples and oranges. In order to be an inventor or soldier...

you have to do the actions of one in the correct setting.

BUT you don't have to be an activist in the feminist movement to be a feminist. Feminism is a set of ideas. Being a soldier isn't. If you have the ideas of feminism, you are one (a feminist). You don't have to contribute anything to anyone.

[jdj]

240. but she is doing the actions...she's (gasp) EDUCATED!

[diplomats]

130. Congratulations, Cags

I think you made an excellent choice by putting your children first. Feminism is about making choices, period.

Re: Women saying they're not feminists:

I used to laugh (to myself) when my "Southron" sister-in-law used to say she wasn't a feminist when she was the most liberated woman I knew. She was an athlete (golf and tennis) and she made sure that she got as much links time as her husband. When we used to go to family reunions and they would have a family softball game, she made sure that she got her playing time. She would say to her husband, "You played and I watched the kids, now it's my turn to play and you watch the kids!" I was some meek little northern girl and would never have thought of that. (Not that I wanted to play anyway.)

That's what I hate the most, when women who ARE liberated pretend they're not just to suck up to men, like Coulter et al.:grr:

[Nobody]

131. Choices are good, but the Phyllis Schlaflys of the world ...

seem to want to take that away.

Whether your chosen work is a paid position or not, you're right, it should be your own choice according to your own situation and no one else should make that choice for you any more than they can live your life for you. Who would want them to?

But my problem with the Phyllis Schlaflys and the Laura Doyles (see The Surrendered Wife) of the world is that they want to tell you how to live your life but they themselves won't live according to the rules they want you to live by.

If you read "The Surrendered Wife", and look at all the things she considered it a wife's duty, notice that she is writing books, making money, and going on book tours instead of surrendering to her husband.

Any one who says: You must work two jobs and keep a spotless home or you're a lazy bum, yet at the same time lives off their lottery winnings and hires someone else to clean their house is nothing more than a hypocrite (yes this is an extreme example, and yes these extreme examples go both ways)

Marion Zimmer Bradley once wrote that the haggis shortage is a long way off. If we all wanted the same things, and we all wanted the same things, no one would get any haggis.

My view of what feminism is is this: that we can all choose our own path to happiness and that no one should choose it for us or block the way we've chosen.

[JerseygirlCT]

148. I hate to break it to you

but you are a feminist.

Where in the world did you get the idea that feminism ISN'T about the freedom to make your own choices? What made you think feminism and being a SAHM mom are not compatible? Those are strange notions to me. You are, as you should be, free to make the best choices for you and your life and family. You seem to understand that other women might make different choices, and you're fine with that.

Can I assume that you feel women who work outside the home should be compensated equally with men doing the same work? That girls in school should have the same opportunities as the boys? I could go on, but I think you get the point.

Feminists DO embrace the value of motherhood. Personally, I think that the problem is embracing the value of PARENTHOOD though -- so long as we keep the focus only on women's roles as parents, we're ignoring half of the parents in the country. Family friendly workplaces, family friendly schedules -- all of this is good for families -- women and men.

[Cats Against Frist]

243. I'm a god-damn-shiftless poet, a stay-at-home-except-when-I

-teach-my-undergraduate-class-two-hours-a-week-mom, with a son in part-time day care AND I AM A FEMINIST.

Some people say that there is no need for "feminism" within "humanism," but as long as I have a bunch of power-hungry right-wing religious whack jobs, with their eyes on my uterus and my access to birth control, and are willing to throw around magic stories to justify male superiority and dominance -- there is a need for feminism.

I'm old-school feminist, too -- none of this third-wave bullshit.

[cally]

44. I used to hear this from teen girls

and it drives me bonkers. Somehow they associate being a feminist with not being able to attract boys. Feminists supposedly hate men. I try to teach them how much of a feminist they are and how important feminists were/are to the life they plan to lead. I've been mostly successful.

If an adult woman says that she is not a feminist, then I assume she is ignorant of history and I lose much respect for her. If a man is not a feminist, than I assume he's someone I really don't want to know because he doesn't share my values. I lose respect for him.

[Shakespeare]

49. My first thought? "What an idiot."

Any woman who runs from that word who also professes to be anything but a fundie nutball should be ashamed of herself.

My second thought is usually, "wow, she really needs to educate herself about what sacrifices were made for her by the women who went before."

This is a great place to give a plug for the HBO movie (now out on DVD) Iron Jawed Angels. I'll bet you my lunch money that most women--even those who consider themselves well-educated--have no clue what Alice Paul and her group went through to help push get us the right to vote. It's a must-see.

[Cleita]

56. Yes, my stepdaughter said that to me just last week.

Since she does a man's job in construction as a project manager, which I would never been hired for even though I would have done it just as well, I told her she would have to quit her job then. Because it was feminists like myself who struggled to open that door for her.

She claimed that she did it through hard work. And I told her she would have worked just as hard and still been in the office making coffee if feminists didn't open the job market. I told her that the L. A. Times divided the classified jobs section into jobs for men and women and God forbid if you tried to get a job that was advertised in the men's section. You were very curtly told that if they wanted a woman they would have advertised for one. I never saw any construction job offered in the women's section.

She still doesn't believe me though. When she got promoted to this job from the office in the construction firm she was working for years ago, which was a tremendous career opportunity, she was one of two pioneering women to do this and in this respect I am very proud of her and I am very happy she got the opportunity.

However, she refused to believe that she never would have gotten that job without feminism. Even though she and her husband have a traditional marriage arrangement: she does the house; he does the yard and cars, she does think Phyliis Schafly is a moron, so there is hope.

[Skidmore]

58. Should go to the library and make her some copies of some of

the old ad sections. Reading old newspapers is an eye opener. I had an ancestor who was responsible for setting up the rural school system in a region of Montana and lost her School Superintendents job (safe woman's work) for her active support of suffrage to another woman who was antisuffrage. The work she put into the education system was not rewarded. She was punished solely for seeking the right to vote.

[Logansquare]

59. I feel like saying "Oh, no. I would call you an opportunist"

because every time I have heard "I'm not a feminist," it came out of the mouth of a woman with a college degree, a job, her own property, her own bank account and credit line. There are plenty of women who want the rights and the goodies that come with it, but don't want to hear that it came after a fight.

[napi21]

60. The word "feminist" came out of the 60's & 70's. Interpretation is wrong.

I just entered the workforce when the Feminist movement began. I fought very hard to help elimnate the male/female pay discrimination, few women allowed in management, loan discrimination, etc, but also part of this movement was...don't open the door for me, I don't need or want a man in my life, I can pay for dinner if I want, etc.

The image of the feminist became an I don't like or need men rather quickly, and we've never been able to shed it.

For those of you who are much younger than I (age 61), you have no idea how bad things really were when this whole thing was started. It was very commonplace for an employer to say they couldn't pay you even close to what they would to a man in the same job, because you could get pregnant and leave, he couldn't; deny a single female a car loan, or any other loan, because they couldn't feel sure you would continue working until the loan was paid off. As bad as you think things still are, they are MUCH BETTER than they used to be, and although we all need to keep fighting for continued improvement, and try to change the perceived description of a "feminist", we all need to thank everybody who fought for the changes we all currently enjoy.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

69. My own mother...

was a victim of just such discrimination.

She was denied jobs because "there were men out there with families who needed the work" (even though SHE was a single Mom caring for two). She was also not allowed to buy her own house without her stepfather co-signing the loan and being on the deed.

Any woman who says she is not a feminist or denies the impact of those feminists who came before her on her life needs to crack open a history book.

I get down on my knees and thank the goddess for every woman who came before me who made it possible for me to lead my life as a free woman.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

64. My grandmother used to say that until I explained that

the way my grandfather cheated her out of her rights to his pension would not be possible under the laws pushed by feminists.

(My grandfather had a certain jealous and paranoid streak, and he stipulated that the survivors' benefits under his teacher's pension would cease five years after his death. His reasoning was "I don't want my pension going to her second husband." My grandmother never remarried, so all of a sudden, she had nothing but Social Security. Under current laws, my grandfather would not have been able to change his pension without my grandmother's permission.)

Later, I was able to explain to my equally anti-feminist mother ("I'm happy as a housewife. What's wrong with those gals who have to have a career?") that thanks to feminists, she did not have to rely on her own meagre Social Security after my father died, because current law allows the surviving spouse to take whichever benefit is higher.

The whole public image of feminists as "bra burners" and "man haters" has overshadowed some real quiet victories of the feminist movement.

Young women find it hard to believe that in 1969, the college I attended decided to meet a financial crunch by firing all the married women faculty or cutting them back to part time. They thought they were being really humane because they didn't fire any of the single women faculty. :eyes:

No one would dare do that today, or if they did, they'd get sued within an inch of their lives.

[Skidmore]

73. *nodding in acknowledgement of statement"

There are so many examples of things we just take for granted these days. So many younger women really have no idea of how recently these changes came for women. How many of us actually tell our daughters about this history?

My daughter came home in her late teens spouting the "feminazi" crap she picked up from outside our home. I sat her down and told her about the struggles of her grandmother and great-grandmother. I talked to her about my early life--birth control pills only came about when I was in my teens, and then only for married women. I talked to her about how Roe v. Wade came about. I dug up as much literature written as I could find and had her read about women's history. She doesn't talk that way anymore. She's college educated, had worklife until she decided she wanted to stay at home until her kids get older, and is active and engaged in the world outside the home. She has a husband who encourages her interests and honors her contributions to the home in whatever form they take. I want my little g-daughter (all of her little one-year-old self) to look forward to a future with choices.

[KenCarson]

it reminds me of a "hole" song

.

[liontamer]

183. me too

[bush_is_wacko]

66. I have been

hated by both men and women for standing up for myself and others, for having the intelligence to see fact from fiction, and for speaking an opinion. I have also been persecuted by feminist women who will stop at nothing to stab each other in the back! The feminist movement in this country is dyslexic! Do I call myself a feminist? NO. I call myself a woman! It is time women started realizing we don't need a slogan tattooed on our forehead and we do not all have the same agenda. I would love it if all women got paid as much as men do. I would also love it if women didn't find the need to trash each other and preen for one another!

[prolesunited]

75. Could you please cite some examples

being "persecuted by feminist women"

I don't have a slogan tattooed on my forehead and what is this "agenda" you speak of.

What does trashing one another and preening have to do with feminism?

I'm really having trouble grasping your points and would appreciate it if you could better explain what you mean with examples.

[L0cke]

67. I don't think anything, from just that one sentence.

Who knows why they say it. Maybe they just dislike the word. Maybe they dislike the history of feminism. Maybe they dislike how it is being sold and choose not to be associated with the sellers. I do not automatically assume that they are ignorant. In fact, I would probably find it very interesting to discuss it with them.

[UdoKier]

79. Funny, I meet a lot more women who claim to be feminists

but vote republican.

Very frustrating.

[prolesunited]

82. Amazing the party of "family values"

does not support women's choices, whether it's control over her own body, or using legislative measures to make it easier for her (or her partner, be it a man or a woman) to stay home with the children. If it's such an important job, why not subsidize it?

And what about raising the minimum wage, which would have the greatest impact on women, or by providing adequate child care resources and credits?

How do they rationalize their decision to vote GOP?

[UdoKier]

85. A lot of them don't care about abortion but believe in equal pay

for equal work. I guess since the GOP isn't expressly AGAINST that, they think the GOP is equivalent to the democrats.

And of course, the GOP's cheap labor policy's have helped to increase the financial strain on families that increases the divorce rate and forces more wives & mothers into the workplace, whether they want to work or not.

Maybe they see that as feminist too?

[Baconfoot]

80. In many contexts I do say that I'm not a feminist (and mean it)

There are so many different flavors of feminism that saying that someone is or isn't a feminist actually says very little except that that person is concerned in some way with women's issues. The person who says they are a feminist wants positive events connected to women to occur and/or to continue occurring.

So why then do I often say I'm not a feminist?

Not to go into too much detail there are two broad categories of reasons I say this.

1) Many particular flavors of feminism strike me as unintentionally replicating the errors they themselves find in androcentric attitudes/societal structures if there are such things and what have you. I cannot sign on to these flavors of feminism and so could not agree that I was a feminist if in the context of a particular conversation to be a feminist was to sign on to some version of one of the objectionable flavors.

2) I see women's issues as not being conceptually isolatable from what many attempt to think of as the distinct issues of certain other disadvantaged classes of persons such as ethnic minorities, gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transgender individuals, and intersexed individuals. I feel that, often, agreeing that I am a feminist would be misleading since most people consider a feminist to be primarily concerned with conceptually distinct category of "women's" issues.

[jdj]

186. sounds like you care too much what other people think

Karma, karma, karma, karma, karma chameleon
you come and go
you come and go...

[Baconfoot]

199. No. Actually, it sounds like I care about clarity and precision. n/t

[jdj]

235. ah, the privilege to split hairs, given to us by our feminist fore-mothers

Meanwhile Iranian women plead to be beaten only once a week.

I just realized something, American suffragettes rocked, they kicked some serious ass, got us the right to vote, and then the women's libbers of the 60's and 70's came along and rocked, too, placing us in our current day position where we can thumb our noses and spit on their graves. Well, familiarity breeds contempt, but it may not always be this way. Just as left-leaning ever so special libertarian males like Stern and Maher have learned the hard way who their enemies and allies truly are, I hope someday all of you anti-feminist feminists have that oppty. as well.

[Baconfoot]

248. No. To advocate clarity and precision is not to advocate hairsplitting.

1) I have no contempt for any generation of feminists or for feminism as a branch of intellectual inquiry. I neither implied nor indicated any such thing in my remarks. On the contrary, many would describe the position I briefly mention in my post as a pretty radical feminist position. So would I in certain contexts, which should come as no surprise to you given that you have read my entire original post.


2) I happen to live in the United States where we could use more clarity and precision as well as more political activism.

3) The privilege to spilt hairs was not given to us by "our feminist fore-mothers." It is just part of the package which comes with being able to reason. If you are unwilling to reason, we are playing different ballgames on the same field and further communication is unnecessary.

[Plaid Adder]

81. "I don't want the label, I just want all the benefits."

That's what that translates into. I don't want to have to FIGHT for these rights and privileges! I just want them handed to me by women I'm going to then turn around and demonize!

For an extended demonstration of how this logic works, look no further than Lynne Cheney's novel *Sisters*:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/plaidder/04/37.html

Faugh,

The Plaid Adder

[Avalux]

87. fighting for the rights - struggling for the rights

doesn't mean one has to walk around calling herself a "feminist" and I have never once demonized someone who does. WHY should that label be a requirement? Sounds like the boy king - "you're either with us or against us".
There are women like Lynne Cheney who are hypocrites, but then there are women like myself who just don't like the label.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

89. Just out of curiosity...

how old are you?

[Avalux]

91. Old enough

to have three daughters that I'm raising alone. I work hard every day, I take care of them and I maintain a household. I depend on no one and I am proud of what I have accomplished. It hasn't always been this way though - it's been a long road to get where I am right now. I have felt fear and I have felt desperation, I have had nothing (we were homeless once). My daughters have seen my determination, and my hope is they will mature into confident, self-sufficient women capable of anything. No label needed.

[cally]

92. What scares you about the label?

Why are you ashamed of being called a feminist? Do you acknowledge what the women before you fought for and achieved? I'll be honest. I think if you do then you are fearful of giving up your rights and not willing to fight for them. Women will lose rights if we don't, men and women, stand together. That's why I lose respect for folks like you.

[Avalux]

93. I am not ashamed and I am not scared

I just don't like the word "feminist"! I don't like labels, period. Your last sentence - "that's why I lose respect for folks like you" - what does that mean? You are making a blanket statement and putting me in a category when you have no idea what kind of person I am and how I live my life.

[Baconfoot]

110. No, "I am not a feminist" does not translate to "I don't want the label"

"I am not a feminist" does not translate directly to I don't want the label, I just want all the benefits.

My biggest problem with calling myself a feminist is that doing to seems to isolate womens' issues from issues of other disadvantaged groups. I don't want to be a supporter of women's rights, AND a supporter of rights for minorities, AND a supporter of rights for GLBT and intersexed individuals, AND a supporter of rights for children AND a supporter of rights for migrant workers etc. I want to conceive of myself as just a supporter of human rights full stop. Not only do I want to conceive of myself this way, I feel that the sets of issues are actually not conceptually distinct from each other (except, unnotably, with regard to scope).

So, on my view, most flavors of feminism doesn't go far enough. With regard to the flavors of feminism which do go far enough, I believe the label "feminism" is misleading. These theories might more properly be "humanism" and their adherents "humanists" but for the fact that "humanism" is already taken.

[pmbryant]

114. Great explanation for why the labels are not very important

People have their own individual motives for how they choose to label themselves. Support, opposition, or indifference to our shared goals should be the most important issue. Not the personal label one chooses.

I think "environmentalists" have a similar problem when trying to broaden their coalition to include natural allies such as hunters, who likely shy away from the label "environmentalist" these days.

--Peter

[Djinn]

180. bullshit

are you saying that because I generally don't call myself a feminist (I say generally because if I meet the knuckle dragging types or those who claim feminsts all hate men I will call myself one) that I have had nothing to do with retaining those rights or fighting for others not yet achieved?

Is it only if you call yourself a feminsts that your work towards these goals is relevant.

That's pretty insulting.

[Taxloss]

84. My fiancee hates the word

and she is no Stepford Wife. She's perfectly strong and independent. But she feels that feminism was valuable in the 1950s-1980s but now has been hijacked by advertisers and marketing people to sell shampoo and make women want to watch Sex in the City. She feels the whole movement is sinking under consumerism and triviality.

But then I suppose individual reproductive rights aren't under assault in the UK as they are in the US. And she's fortunate enough to work in an enlightened sector. But I would call myself more of a feminist than her.

[LakeCohoon]

86. Why, I hadn’t given it much thought.

However, I suppose I would feel about the same as I would about a man that said he wasn’t a masculinist.

[stanwyck]

95. Judging from your post

I imagine not giving something much thought is a habit.

[seaj11]

99. There's no need to insult anyone. nt

[shockra]

143. Aw, c'mon. That was funny!

Why are you worried his feelings being hurt when he just confessed to not having any?

[LakeCohoon]

146. You are overanalyzing

Actually, I have a habit of not giving much thought to the chips that some people place on their shoulders.

[stanwyck]

150. If you believe feminism

is merely a chip on the shoulder, then I stand by my statement that you don't give issues much thought.

[LakeCohoon]

161. Knocking The Chip

It’s not that I view feminism as a chip; rather, I believe that an intelligent and confident woman doesn’t agonize over questions relating to her feminism.

Then, there are those with the chips…

[stanwyck]

164. I've cashed in my chips

and taken my winnings, thank you very much.
By the way, I believe you mean "relating to her femininity". Intelligent and confident women agonize over questions relating to feminism. You're confusing two very different words. You might want to ramp up a bit for this board.

[LakeCohoon]

224. Agony = No confidence

No, I’m talking philosophy, not biology.

But if you’re agonizing over questions relating to feminism, then you are obviously not a very confident woman.

Take care, darlin’

[Technowitch]

98. It's the EXACT SAME THING as people ashamed to admit they're Liberals

[Phentex]

103. Yep, it's been branded as a negative thing to be!

And for many of the reasons people listed above. It irks me when people try to denounce it because they are just adding to the negativity.

[Skidmore]

105. So do we have PR people who could assist with

branding issues?

[m berst]

107. it reminds me of "reverse racism"

Somehow these distorted ideas of the definitions and historical meanings of words got inserted into people's thinking. How can someone be against feminism? When I ask people, they qualify it with "I'm against parts of it." Well, there are "parts" of everything that are less than perfect. Or they will say they are against what it has become now. That goes along with the "it was needed in its time, but that was then and this is now" arguments. The same arguments are used against unions - "they were needed in their time" and the fight for racial equality, as well.

If we look at these three - the fight for workers rights, the fight for women's rights, and the fight for racial equality - in each case the underlying idea behind "don't get me wrong, unions were ok in their time, but" and "don't get me wrong, the suffragette movement was good, but" and "don't get me wrong, the civil rights movement did a lot of good in the past, but" - is that these problems are somehow solved and so the movements are obsolete.

I don't believe they are solved. Some of the more obvious ways in which people are oppressed as women, as workers, and as minorities, as well as some of the more superficial ways have been eliminated.

Women today suffer terrible oppression in my view. In theory, women have more choices and options. In practice, so many women are living in poverty, working the lowest end jobs for less than a living wage, and in hundreds of ways enduring pressures and barriers that men don't face. To what degree is resistance to the label actually resistance to the underlying understanding and discussion about the ways in which women are still very much getting a bad deal?

The biggest win for the reactionary forces over the last 30 years in my opinion is that we can no longer talk intelligently about sexism, racism, and workers' rights because the mouthpieces for the right wing have so trashed out the language and so compromised people's ability to think clearly on these subjects. This has weakened and crippled the people, because if we can't talk about the various ways that the tyrannical rulers and reactionaries divide and conquer us, we can't fight back.

[prolesunited]

112. Wow!

That was an excellent response, especially the concept of emotionalizing the issues to real discussion can't take place. I think we see that often, even here.

[bobbieinok]

125. good comments??? have you written a 'stand-alone' essay about this

somewhere???

[Scout]

108. like she's one of the women who give the rest of us a bad name.

You know, a pussy, as opposed to a real woman.

I know this isn't actually true, but that's what I feel first when I hear women make that comment.

[mark414]

120. my female friend calls herself a womanist,

if she calls herself anything

she says she doesn't like to identify with the quote unquote feminist movement because, as a black female, if this was 100+ years ago, she wouldn't have been included

that's her though. i'm a white male. i don't have much to say, other than i think it's hilarious that the rushbots use a word like feminazi, because it shows how afraid they are of a strong woman, but it's terrible because it perpetuates stereotypes about strong women.

[hfojvt]

140. Sojourner Truth - "Ain't I a woman?"

I think the whole business of "strong women" is kind of a sell-out to feminism. To me feminism is about honoring the feminine - that is nurturing, motherhood, co-operation, and compassion. Not that there is not strength in that, as piglet would say - "It is well known that when a mother is deprived of her young, she becomes as fierce as TWO of the fiercer animals."

However, when it comes to admiring a woman because she is strong, or assertive, or bossy and domineering. To me that seems like admiring male values so much that you want even women to exhibit them.

I would ask, is feminism about transforming society, or is it about mainstreaming women into the current society?

And yes, I am a wimpy male, hoping for a kinder, gentler world.

[Skidmore]

141. There is strength in the feminine qualities, in knowing

when to bend. But I won't bend over. Sometimes a woman just has to be assertive or she gets run over.

[pmbryant]

147. To me, feminism is not about stereotyping women

Feminism is not about honoring the feminine, but about treating women with respect, whatever their personality traits. Furthermore, there is no contradiction between being strong and assertive and being nurturing and compassionate.

The term "strong woman" is used as a pejorative by many men (and perhaps some women) who would prefer to return to a time when all women supposedly knew their place, didn't speak up for themselves, and essentially stayed out of men's way.

To me, one goal of feminism should be to change attitudes so that assertive women are not sneered at as "strong women", or "trying to act like a man", but instead are admired for their strength and assertiveness, just as men who act that way are.

Of course, a corollary goal should be to change attitudes so that men playing positive, non-traditional roles (e.g., stay at home fathers) are also admired more than they used to be.

--Peter

[hfojvt]

167. can personality traits be learned or guided?

My question is - what type of behaviour is taught or socially approved (in either men or women)?
Intro to Sociology course that I took showed a video saying that little boys are taught or encouraged to be agressive and violent even by their mothers, and little girls are taught to be co-operative and nurturing.
I am not creating those stereotypes, nor suggesting that they should remain, but my bias is, if we are going to make the sexes more equal, I would raise the boys more like the girls, rather than vice versa.
I do not admire men for their strength or assertiveness except in the sense of a Harriet Tubman who was using her strength to help other people, rather than a Leona Helmsley who uses her strength to be rich and powerful.

[pmbryant]

174. Strength and assertiveness are admirable qualities

At least I always thought so. Both in men and women.

Greed, bullying, and violence are different, and I agree that the world needs less of those traits.

Peter

[Ladyhawk]

121. I was exposed to a lot of Rush Limbaugh.

It wasn't my choice, but my father blared the radio so loud, I heard enough to infect me. So, I didn't embrace the word feminist until recently. However, women's issues were the very first thing that put a chink in my religious right-wing Republican world view. I read a few too many books. :)

[u4ic]

122. Too many associate

feminist and Andrea Dworkin; ie radical feminism. She was the poster child for 'feminism' for how long? I think the media often used her as an example to ridicule feminists, to put them in a bad light.

I am the late child of a late child. I'm in my late 30's; if my mother was still alive she would be 83 (and her mother, 121) so I have some understanding of what previous generations of women have had to endure. I very much appreciate the work my fellow ladies have done before me, and for me and other women.

I do agree that some feminist groups poo-pooed mothers who stayed at home with their kids. I've always found the title 'working mother' unusual; whether she's in a job outside the home, or in it, she is still working!

[BiggJawn]

123. Dunno. Never met one.

By that I mean I have NEVER heard a woman say "I'm not a Feminist", and if I did hear someone say that, I think I'd be on my guard.

Because I figure either she's lieing to me, or she's a stray Stepford Wife looking for a master. And I wouldn't want to be around either one.

I'll skip the questions about stereotypes, because we've all heard Gush Pfleghmball go on about it. No, they're not accurate. One can be Misanthropic without being a Feminist. The 2 are exclusive.

Why "Self-Label"?

"...men's right to control and dominate..."
Ewww...Sorry, but I've got my hands full trying to manage my OWN life. and I'm no whiz at THAT, either....

And if I knew the answwer to your last question, I'd be a very wise and wealthy man indeed, wouldn't I? :-)

Don't tolerate mis-use of the term. I have no ideas other than that.

[MsAnthropy]

124. It was the extremist fringe lunies that killed it for me

like the writer Andrea Dworkin who decided that all sexual relations was rape and the "feminist spokewomen" our newspaper always seem to find to quote--like the time a very unstable woman went into a bookstore and set herself on fire "to protest pornography." The "spokeswomen" were very quick to claim her as a martyr for feminism and rationalize her actions, instead of that she was obviously disturbed and needed help. That happened about 20 years ago and I haven't called myself a feminist since.

The women tried several more times to set herself on fire in the years following that, until she finally succeeded. What a sad case.

[prolesunited]

126. You're saying that

these people are on the fringe and this happened 20 years ago. Don't you think things have changed since then? Why cling to that?

Christians don't stop calling themselves that because of Falwell or Swaggart. The fringe doesn't define a movement. I think the well-spoken women on this thread are much better spokespersons for the movement.

[MsAnthropy]

145. The purpose of any movement is to eventually make it itself irrelevant

which the feminist movement certainly is. The inroads were made, now it's every woman for herself. The "movement" has not done a significant thing for years regarding reproductive rights, wage equality, sexual harassment or any of the other issues that are now moving backward thanks to the Christian right.

[JanMichael]

127. Well...personally I am such a bitch

that I usually just laugh at them for holding jobs that are not "normally" (in the 1953 sense of the word) feminine...then I try to piss them off further by pointing out that they are wearing slacks--

In short, I humiliate them...hopefully with an audience.

Stephanie

PS-you haven't posted anymore about your job status in the Lounge...I hope everything works out for you the way that you want it to.

[prolesunited]

128. It was seeing Phyllis Schlafly this morning on CSPAN

that really set me off. :mad:

Thanks for your good wishes. I haven't posted anything because I don't know. The board is supposed to decide tomorrow. In any case, I'll be OK. There have been some resignations at my part-time workplace so I'm fairly certain I could get hired on there.

I've been expecting this, so I've been preparing myself financially for awhile. The only problem is my buyout for COBRA coverage. At $450 a month, that will be tough, but if I have to pay full price for my meds for high blood pressure, allergies and asthma, I'll spend that much anyway.

I'll let you know. Thanks for asking. :D

[JanMichael]

129. That woman has been setting me off for years

I can't stand the sight of her.

She either has NO clue what she is wishing for, or worse case scenario...she is a hideous hag who wants the Handmaiden's Tale to be reality.

I personally think it's worse case scenario for the screwed up dinosaur.

Unfortunately, with the last election, I think younger women are going to get to find out how much fun it is to live in a Conservative country. Better go get your copies of "Joy of Cooking" quickly ladies!

Sad.

Yes, let us know---I know you were prepared for it, but you seem to love your job so much, that it's just a real shame.

Stephanie

[Nobody]

144. Here's a thought: Let's require ....

that everyone live up to the things they expect from others.

Phyllis Schlafly and those like her have been telling women what to do for years.

Do you remember Marabel Morgan's book "The Positive Woman" (positively descpicable in that the so-called "positive woman" was supposed to give up her self and let her husband make all the decisions in the family. Includes that bit about greeting him at the door dressed in saran wrap.)

Laura Doyle's "The Surrendered Wife" in which she tells women that the two should become one. Literally. And that one is him.

The list goes on. But what are these women doing? Is Marabel wearing saran wrap dresses? Is Laura Doyle surrendering to her own husband? Is Phyllis Schlafly backing off and letting hubby lead?

No to all of the above. These are professional women, successful women, making it on their own, benefitting from the women's movement while at the same time telling us which choices to choose while not choosing it for themselves.

Remember the scene in "The Handmaid's Tale" in which Offred recognized Serena Joy, who clearly is not enjoying the role she was trying to force on other women?

[Mallifica]

133. I think she's an idiot

[KnowerOfLogic]

134. I say, "Fine, then give up all the rights *feminists* earned."

[proudbluestater]

137. Rush was the main demonizer, as I recall

Rush called us all feminazis. It's gone downhill from there. Rather than look inside themselves and try to improve something within THEM, they make themselves feel better by demonizing somebody else. I also think they demonize what they fear most, what threatens them. Powerful women, ooooohhhhh, scary! Liberals, ooooohhhh, scary.

Here's a couple good quotes I found that came around the same time as Rush chose to paint us with a broad brush.

Feminism:

Jerry Falwell: "Most of these feminists are radical, frustrated lesbians, many of them, and man-haters, and failures in their relationships with men, and who have declared war on the male gender. The Biblical condemnation of feminism has to do with its radical philosophy and goals. That's the bottom line."

Randall Terry, head of Operation Rescue; from a speech to a group of anti-abortion Roman Catholic priests, quoted in Front Lines Research : "...make dads the godly leaders with the women in submission, raising kids for the glory of God."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/quotes2.htm

Is it no wonder women are afraid to declare their feminism? If it's radical to want to control my reproductive organs and not let some strange 80-year old dude in Washington do it for me, color me feminist. If it's radical to expect equal pay for equal work, color me a feminist.

Now we're in a testosterone-charged fascist state where women barely exist or are acknowledged. It's all about "who's tough." Who can "kick some ass."

[Skidmore]

139. Rush is a woman-hater, as are all these

radical clerics. Hang that label on them. Women-haters. Did they hate their mothers and sisters too? Maybe it's time to remind the misongynists that every single one of them had a mother who birthed them, changed their dirty bottoms, wiped their snotty noses, and cleaned up throw-up at 2 am. What's more American than motherhood, except maybe apple pie? Or baseball? Shame on them for dishonoring their mothers, and sisters, and wives. Isn't that a sin? Actually, it's a violation of one of the Ten Commandments--you know, the ones they want displayed in every courthouse in America, right next to the large picture of "Our Leader".

[Swamp Rat]

138. What, did you have a sex change like Adams Apple Coulter?

[readmoreoften]

215. HEY! No trans bashing! n/t

[Swamp Rat]

221. Just Coulter bashing

All the other trannies are fine by me... in fact some are really HOT!

[Robin Hood]

155. Surely fearing something!

I once worked for a woman who held down two jobs traditionally held by men who day exclaimed "Damn feminists!" She apparently didn't even realize if it wasn't for women of the past, she wouldn't be allowed to find jobs to support her family and pay!

[cyn2]

157. It makes me feel sad....

I see the possibilities (and probabilities) that the rights that women have fought for so long will dwindle away. Eternal vigilance is the only way to preserve rights.

It's happening already.

I don't have the figures, but I believe that the percentage that women make compared to men is lower now that in the past.

I always assume that when someone says they're not a feminist, they carry an incorrect definition of feminism or they've never had to fight to have their voice heard. Or, as seems so prevalent in parts of this country, they choose not to have real power because they want someone to take care of them.

[cags]

160. What's your defintion of "Real Power"?

[Doohickie]

158. A feminist, in my experience, is a person whose primary

focus is women's rights. My sis-in-law qualifies; she's marched in abortion-rights demonstrations in Washington, is a strong supporter of breast cancer research, etc.

I love her dearly. And she's a great person. But...

If I say I don't like the idea of abortion, even though I think they should remain legal and available, she paints me as some kind of right-wing fundie. Simply put, while I am largely in favor of women's rights, they are not my number one issue, and saying so raises her ire.

It's just like anyone else who defines themselves by association with a cause; anyone who doesn't have that same passion is the enemy.

Does that make sense?

[noonwitch]

162. That she needs therapy

Obviously, a woman who is not a feminist thinks:

1. She deserves to be paid less than a man for the same work
2. She does not have the intelligence to make her own reproductive choices.
3. She does not need to vote, since those evil feminists are the ones who pushed women's rights to vote on this country.
4. Men can make all decisions regarding her life.

[cattleman22]

163. Some on the fringe tainted the word and it needs to be reclaimed.

For example, an officer in the National Organization of Women gave a speech in the early 1990's about how no real feminist could ever eat meat. She went on to say that a person who eats meat is really trying to keep women down.

Having grown up on a cattle farm, I was particularly sensitive to this issue. I know it is wrong, but whenever I hear someone claim that she is a feminist, the first thing I think is that this woman is a militant vegan trying to ruin my family's livlihood.

[put out]

168. If you are referring to some nameless "officer" in the NOW

in a speech which was, maybe, made 20 years ago, in which she espoused vegetarianism, maybe...and then using this silly-ass stuff as an excuse to try to believe that feminists are trying to ruin your livlihood...

And then say "I know it is wrong"...

I would suggest thinking about it for a bit.

[cattleman22]

222. Funny how you blame me and not the extremists

for tainting the word feminist. And no it was not 20 years ago, but closer to 10. And she did not just espouse vegetarianism, she claimed that the only way to be a feminist was to be a vegan. She also claimed that anyone who ate meat was automatically putting women down.

[efhmc]

170. Well, here is what I think about it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2757346

[Poor Richard Lex]

171. compare Susan B. Anthony

and Alice Paul to Coulter and Cheney

The rethug sellouts wouldn't even have the ability to be what they are today without feminists. sickening

[Czolgosz]

173. It's the same as with the right-wing agenda to demonize every aspect

of the Democrat constituency. The Republican propoganda machine spews out hate against the unions (all they did was get you fair pay and reasonable working conditions), trial lawyers (all they do is represent consumers against corporations), elite liberal Hollywood types (all they do is make art and try to give something back to the society that supports them), treehuggers (all they do is try and keep the polution in your backyard to a minimum), feminists (god forbid a woman should expect equal pay), the ACLU (who needs civil rights, anyway), etc. They attack every aspect of the party membership with a view to alienating as many people as they can.

[Djinn]

176. some women don't like it because they don't feel

comfortable being in the same group as many prominent feminists who they adamantly disagree with.

Of course they can be feminists without agreeing with Andrea Dworkin (as one example) but some people who wear the name feminsim make them uncomfortable.

[liontamer]

185. it infuriates me to no end

"i'm not a feminist, I like men!"
on the other hand it's not entirely their fault.
"Girlieness" is too often demonized by the feminist movement as if a fondness for sparklies and pink makes one a traitor to the cause.

[superconnected]

191. I hung out on the MS boards for a while

and I can understand denying being a feminist after that. They were hostile and that's the nicest thing I can say about them.

Glad it's gone.

I am a feminist but I didn't admit to it for years. It bothers me when men tell me they are feminists though. My first reaction is they don't know what they're talking about.

[pmbryant]

206. Am I a feminist?

I don't have direct experience as a female, obviously, but I very closely observe and listen to one and share a life with her. I also unequivocally support traditional "feminist" positions such as equal pay, equal opportunity, abortion rights, etc.

Perhaps I don't know what I'm talking about, but that disqualify me from the team?

Peter

[readmoreoften]

218. you are absolutely a feminist

[La Lioness Priyanka]

225. i like sparklies and i really love the pink and high heels

however i am a feminist. have always been and always will be

[CarbonDate]

195. As a military male, I self-identify as a feminist....

...and I eat for lunch anybody who thinks women should be kept out of leadership roles and such because of their gender.

[Chomp]

202. Depends on the size of her tits nt

[jbnow]

204. I am not sure I am a feminist

More a...humanist? Freedomist?

I realize by definition a feminist is someone who believes in equality of the sexes. I do, so literally then I am one. I am certainly a liberated woman. I credit women who came earlier that it came so easily for me.

When laws and traditions were so unfair if I had been around the cause would have been a focus and then I would probably be a feminist, I would claim the label in the fight.

I am nearly 50 so I am not speaking as some naive teen. I care that we don't lose rights...but I don't care that more for women then for any group. Men, women, all colors, creeds, financial level, sexual preference, educational level...

Perhaps wrongly I think if I claimed to be a feminist...it would be indicating women were my strongest focus of concern. I think we are all in trouble here. More is based on financial status then gender or race really now, though low income is more women and minorities.

[readmoreoften]

220. I am pro straight women's rights.

The feminist movement did wonderful things for heterosexual middle-class women. I am a middle class female, so it has done much for me in the way of occupational rights and I am grateful for the women who worked so hard to secure common basic human rights for females and I'll never betray their memory.

However as a femme lesbian w/ a transgendered boyfriend, I need to go way beyond 'women's rights' in order to keep myself and my partner alive.

But I still support straight women's issues like birth control, to be a stay-at-home-mom or not to be, abortion, spousal abuse... etc. These issues don't effect me (except for abortion in the case of rape) but I'll fight to the death for heterosexual family planning rights.

Unfortunately, many self-identified feminists (for example, diehards at the Michigan Womyn's fest) are outwardly hostile towards my partner and I so it is still difficult for me to totally embrace the word.

[jbnow]

231. I think we are saying ther same thing

Just using different examples. We are for "feminist" causes, it just doesn't go far enough in describing the rights we are concerned about.
Rights that aren't personal to us or for groups we are not part of mean as much as those for us. I am a straight, white, middle aged woman...but the lack or stripping of rights for kids or elderly or gays or ex-felons or how many young black men we make into felons and other issues of prison system snd on and on...do affect me because I am a human on earth.

We need a bigger word that covers rights for all.

[jdj]

236. isn't that something?

lesbians must be the most selfless group on the planet, always marching against rape and for abortion, and being solid anchors of the AIDS movement.

Is there a more under appreciated group in this country?

[Lizzie Borden]

205. My auomatic response is..

to quit listening right away.

[sendero]

209. I feel like..

... I understand this issue completely.

But if I explained my beliefs on this subject I would be drummed off of DU. :)

I like DU and don't wish to piss anyone off that much, so I will simply say that there is a good, simple, and obvious reason why people feel this way and if you can't see it you should try harder.

[put out]

210. We are all trying harder.

The "obvious reason why people feel this way" is not clear to me. What way do they feel?

It would be alright with me if you would explain your complete understanding of the issue.

Also, I am simple. Be gentle. I will try to keep up.

[Djinn]

229. People HAVE tried on this thread

and they've been called ignorant, stupid, people who bludge off other women's work etc etc

For me it probably mainly comes down to a PR background (don't flog me only ever worked for NFP's) and that I hate the word I don't feel it fits my perspective - whatever the dictionary meaning - and clearly other people here don't follow the dictionary meaning, some people have said they think it's stupid for men to call themselves feminsts - doesn't seem to be so when one takes the dictionary meaning - why can't men support equal rights?

I know Liberal's (in Aust the Lib are the conservative party) who will not call themselves Lib now because of the anti-aboriginal, anti-refugee, anti-human rights and anti-muslim crap spewed by the current lib admin, technically they shouldn't have a problem calling themselves Lib's because the MEANING of the actual word hasn't changed, but they FEEL like it has.

I just don't see why women who advocate choice get so snippy when people don't readily identify with the word feminism - that doesn't mean we work any less than the rest of you for access to birth control, equal pay, decent jobs (in Aust almost all crappy casual jobs are held by women) etc and it's patronising and insulting for some to suggest that's the case.

[eridani]

216. That she is a coward

150 years ago she would have said "I'm not a suffragette."

That she thinks it was just unexplained magic that got rid of Help Wanted Male/Help Wanted Female, got funding for girls' sports, changed married women not being able to get credit without husbands' permission, etc. etc.

[arcane1]

228. Feminist? You mean the lesbians who hate men and kill babies?

:shrug:

[breadandwine]

230. We must march against Fox and the rigged election.

Not talk. Action. STREET action. Action in the STREETS. Huge public protest. A joint protest against the rigged election and Fox right in front of Fox World Headquarters in New York with the chant, “Rupert Murdoch, tell the truth! Fascists rigged the voting booth!” Fox is headquartered in mid-Manhattan on the SECOND floor. We’re going to be right outside their windows by the thousands screaming our guts out where they can hear us. Bad vibrations? Too bad studio soundproofing isn’t perfect. We must deny them legitimacy at all costs. Bush didn’t win. His election is a fake. Vast numbers of Americans still don’t know this because Bush shills like Fox cover it up. Fox must be targeted. Their headquarters are in New York. The other papers and media in New York will cover this protest because they all hate Fox’s living guts in New York. See this blog:

A Call To March On Fox
For refusing to tell the truth about the rigged election! —

http://acalltomarchonfox.blogspot.com/

Read it. Read it all. Contact the blogger there to get involved.

Go to this thread and participate in the discussion — A call to march against the rigged election — includes extensive discussion about the planned march on Fox/rigged election:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2688242

Add your comments there, keep that thread kicked. There’s going to be a huge march in New York combining protest against the rigged election and the Bush shills like Fox who cover it up, a double whammy. After that, the cat will be out of the bag and Bush will have lost legitimacy.

Why is that important? Because legitimacy is essential for de facto power. Official or “de jure” power is not enough for a leader to maintain control. He has to also have the INTANGIBLES of legitimacy — de facto authority. That’s why presidents can become lame ducks in their second term. Bush must be denied LEGITIMACY. His whole presidency must be publicly DELEGITIMIZED. People in other countries will hear about the march too. This will add to his difficulties diplomatically overseas. To deny legitimacy we must march against the rigged election.

Where? At the number one shill covering it up — Fox. Fox Headquarters in New York. Fox may or may not admit we are in front of their New York offices but the other New York news organizations will because they hate Fox. See the above blog for full details on that and the whole march plan. See and post on the above thread to get involved. Keep that thread kicked.

[okieinpain]

242. I say good, now get naked and get your ass on the bed.

[Malva Zebrina]

245. I feel that they are ignorant

and disrespectful of all the feminists that have gone before them. They are arrogant, selfish, self centered women who take their condition now for granted.

If it were not for feminists, women would still not have sufferage and those women suffered humiliation from many a church in the quest to have sufferage for women.

If it were not for feminists, they would still be going to school to be one of two things-- either a nurse or a secretary, because careers such as a doctor,or a lawyer, or a CEO, or an accountant,the really big paying jobs, were NOT open to them. Few even attended college because it was considered a waste of money because women inevitably were childbearers who stayed home and cooked, and cleaned, and raised the children, while the husband supported the entire unit.


I am weary of young people who refuse to take into consideration that wisdom in the past that has gained for them. What they often seem do, in the best tradition of the EVE personality is trash them instead--they were abused because they were spanked as a child, therefore they hate their mother or father who were not the perfect parents, and few are, after all, no one is a born professional parent. They were abused as a child because their parents were 'strict". They were abused because they were not given everything the other kids got, but instead were forced to suffer and do without and live as if they were poor and it goes on and on.

At the age of forty, they are still blaming their abusive parents for their own failings.

And disdain the unique, brave women who in the past, worked hard with great bravery for the times, to establish equal rights for women.

[Misunderestimator]

258. I feel betrayed...