only 35% say that evolution is well-supported by evidence

[MSgt213]

Note to Religion Editors: Public Doubts Darwin, Evolution, Poll Finds

By E&P Staff

Published: November 30, 2004 12:01 PM ET

NEW YORK As the press considers increasing its "faith-based" reporting, one thing journalists should keep in mind is that, contrary to most assumptions, large numbers of American remain wary of evolution and continue to see God's hand fully directing the origin of the species.

"Public acceptance of Charles Darwin's theory of evolution is well below the 50% mark, a fact of considerable concern to many scientists," Frank Newport, editor-in-chief of The Gallup Poll, observed today. He noted that given three alternatives, only 35% say that evolution is well-supported by evidence. The same number say evolution is one of many theories and not well supported by evidence. Another 29% say they don't know enough about it to say.

Almost half of Americans (45%) believe that human beings "were created by God essentially as they are today (that is, without evolving) about 10,000 years ago," acccording to Gallup's poll.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000728154

[BlueEyedSon]

1. They can't explain how their TV works either, and we know THAT'S not

"made by god" either....

[MSgt213]

6. it's not?

[BlueEyedSon]

16. For example, mine's a Sony.

:)

[pinniped]

55. I have a Philips flat-screen.

.

[Seabiscuit]

44. These are the same people that think God's supposed to fix the blinking

"12:00" time on their VCR.

[Avalux]

2. Ignorance n/t

[evil genius]

3. and we let these morons vote.

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.

[Seabiscuit]

46. What they need is a little acid in their gene pool

And I don't mean the kind that burns/melts stuff either. Unless you consider "your face is melting" as included in the word "melts". :)

[DrWeird]

4. 100% of scientists say that evolution is well-supported by evidence.

nt

[bullimiami]

5. im sorry i do not trust that poll

i refuse to believe, on the basis of one poll, that as a nation we are that ignorant.

[MSgt213]

8. Look at who we selected as President. We are pretty fucking ignorant.

[DrWeird]

9. Actually, that's about right.

It fits with other polls on the same subject. Believe it or not.

[knight_of_the_star]

10. I do

Considering that Survivor is considered to be good television and Donald Trump a good businessman in spite of his casino company going under.

[charlie]

36. Here's some corroboration from another poll

Read it and weep:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml

[JPJones]

7. Well, that explains 90% of George Bush's vote n/t

[Fridays Child]

11. You beat me to the obvious conclusion.

[acmavm]

12. Coming from a part of the human race that somehow is 'devolving',

I can see this.

[Fridays Child]

13. Let's remove all those people from the health insurance rolls.

Scientific advances in medicine are surely of no use to them, either.

[The Straight Story]

14. There is a trick to all that

As a christian who has (and still does) collect biblical based works from the 1800's one thing I can recall in that time period is how science and religion worked together to better understand how god made things, whereas today it seems more like a schism.

The catch is - the computer. Suppose for instance we have a computer with many processors and we program in 'life'. Maybe we made and compiled this code in '6' days. We create AI who goes about it's 'life' - billions of AI creatures. They become scientific and look for their origins. Since I am the programmer, ie god, I can mess with them and see who remains faithful. There are several branches here really. Maybe they will figure out some basics of how they were made, how they 'evolved' in the process of me running the program, or maybe I put things into their reality which makes it seem like they are older than they are.

Such is the quandry called faith. If we were made/designed then the creature doing so may well be able to manipulate things (or 'lucifer' could). In that same token, the AI can only see, in science, certain things because they don't 'believe' something beyond.

It all goes back to philosophy class 'is life nothing more than a dream' kind of thing.

Myself, as a christian, I can see beyond the science and religion. I believe we had a creator - but how and how long is something to discover, not simply accept. There is beauty in both belief and science, and the two can have interesting interactions. The bible is full of allegory and such, which leads me to an open mind while I stay within a framework I believe.

God made man, turned the world over to us, and what we do with it is up to us. He has some ideas which can help, but we are free to explore things and examine the beauty of his works (and I use 'he' in a generic sense of the word). The bible is the language of faith, a free style framework, science is the language of understanding how things work within it - and the more we probe the closer we get to understanding the beauty of this life and creation. Maybe we did evolve from fish, cool. Maybe we were but dust in the universe and became man along the way somehow. Science to me is a window into the wonders of god and our universe.

Aliens, evolution, black holes, etc all to me are wonderous things. If a creator made such things, then I am truly in awe of the creator's mind. Maybe it will all come to naught, maybe we are all evolution and chemistry and there is nothing more, maybe morals on this earth are made by only those in power and evil is really good on the scale because it shows a higher order because those with power use it to enhance their own needs because they are superior and the weak should be trampled on.

Who knows. But as a christian I find science the best thing for me. It is a window into the beauty of this thing called life we have been given. Evolution is not the enemy, it is the beauty of a well thought out plan that we, as sentient creatures, are able to see and analyze.

My only problem in the science arena is how some things are too easily discounted. Let me give an example: Ghosts. Sure, they may be psychological, but what if they are not? they may lead to something much deeper in our understanding of the universe and this life (not spiritual, we can treat them as anomolies). I think, after centuries of people seeing them, that maybe there is something more scientific at the atomic level worth looking into. But the James Randis of the world seem hell bent against them (and I like Randi a lot).

At any rate, rant over :)

[superconnected]

15. evolution

I'd like the scientist to explain where that mass came from to create the big bang. You know, that mass of every molecule in the cosmos? Or just how the FIRST molecule in the cosmos came about, or just the first protrons and neutrons. I mean did they come from nothing? It's no different than asking where God came from really.

I am getting tired of seeing closed minded people on both sides of the debate.

They don't know the answer and evolution has all kinds of holes in it. In my life I have heard so many news broadcasts where they thought they found a human from 50k years ago and it turned out to be a pigs skull - along that line. Or Hieroglyphs arrived as a complete language.

The truth is, scientists don't know our history very far back and that means about 10k years. What they know about the universe is changing all the time. Very little should be regarded as fact at this point.

And I think collapsing universes is a stupider approach than God created the world. Just my gut feeling.

[HawkerHurricane]

17. Question...

who says the matter had to come from anywhere? If matter needs a creator, why doesn't God? If God doesn't need a creator, why does matter?

[superconnected]

18. yeah, so maybe were all just here and there is no evolution or God.

Pick your own theory and start yelling it's a fact.

[HawkerHurricane]

20. OK.

God created the universe, including each and every one of us, with our memories as they are, AT 6:33 PM, PST. Prove me wrong.

[w4rma]

21. Big bang has nothing to do with evolution. Evolution is a proven fact.

You can watch living things evolve to their environment over many lifespans within a labratory. All you need is something alive that has a very short lifespan and a very fast reproductive rate and you can watch them adapt over generations to their environment.

[ilife]

32. you can also use the laws of evolution to write software

so you can 'see' it WORK in the digital world as well :hi:

[0rganism]

38. I'd like you to explain why you expect evolution to explain the big bang

Go ahead. Tell me what you think the theory of inflating space-time has to do with the theory of evolution. Can you cite any of the observed phenomena that are explained and predicted by inflation? Do you know of any theories that explain them better?

The "Piltdown Man" hoax you mention was discredited by what is known as peer review, a crucial part of the scientific process. God did not step in with his angels to demonstrate that it was a hoax, human scientists did it by reviewing the material evidence. On the other hand, there is plenty of sound evidence for the evolution of numerous species which has stood up to the scrutiny of equally- or more-intense review.

If your counter-argument to evolution is along the lines of, "I have heard people say that some evidence for evolution is shakey, therefore all of it is shakey," you have a substantial problem with basic inference.

Yes, the body of knowledge changes over time. Theories are constantly subject to revision and, when the exceptions begin to overwhelm the evidence, obsolescence. This is healthy. This is how we are able to understand Einstein's theory of relativity as an expansion and refinement of Newton's theories of motion, rather than a separate set of phenomenon that require entirely disparate explanations.

[The Straight Story]

40. I would agree on collapsing universe thing

And scientist often seem like modern day preachers to me. No matter what branch you seem to find people on both sides of the same issue.

I try to be open minded as I can be. My mind will close when I die, until then I will enjoy the ride - even if I am wrong.

[Nordic]

56. well I'd like an ant to explain how I turned on my TV set

I sure don't expect he'd be able to do that, but it sure is simple as far as I'm concerned.

Do you seriously think your puny little mind can handle the realities of God's universe?

I know mine can't. That's what's so beautiful about God's universe.

[BillZBubb]

57. Dude, you need to do some reading!

Did you know that in the vacuum of space, particle-antiparticle pairs are CONSTANTLY forming out of nothing in empty space? We know mass and energy are equivalents. That should give you some hint on why this works and perhaps how a big bang event could happen.

Anyway, immediately after the big bang, there were no molecules or atoms or protons or neutrons. Their were only quarks and electrons. The expanding universe had to cool considerably before stable protons and neutrons could form. Once that happened, hydrogen and helium atoms readily formed.

Gravity worked it's magic and began clumping the hydrogen and helium atoms. Once they got smashed together enough by gravity, these clumps began fusion reactions and voila there was light! Stars were born. They were big and hot. The fusion reactions created heavier elements: Carbon, Oxygen, ..., Iron. Finally, the stars ran out of fuel for fusion and began to collapse even futher because of the intense gravity. That's when the stars exploded as Super Novas. They threw out all the heavy elements. A mini big bang.

Your gut feeling is based on ignorance.

[American Tragedy]

74. Great post, very well said sir

I was hoping that somebody would come on here and explain how one can reconcile faith and science, and you did so very eloquently.

You make me think of The Inferno. Dante Alighieri classified sins of reason and critical thought, like deception, as the worst, because supposedly the ability to reason is the most Godly of human gifts.

[RFM]

19. we are in DEEP trouble

i gotta get me and my familly outta here before it's too late :scared:

[SmokingJacket]

22. What is with all these evolution threads??? n/t

[superconnected]

23. apparently instead of creationists trying to shove it down our throats

It's evolutionists doing it now.

[SmokingJacket]

24. Not exactly.

I get the sense someone is trying to divide and conquer.

Evolution is not an issue, to me.

It's just plain facts.

Really not worth discussing here.

[m berst]

25. no such thing

There is no such group as "evolutionists" and there has been no shoving that I have seen.

On edit - if there were a knowledgeable discussion going on about magnetism or gravity, no one would call the people talking about them "gravitists" or "magnetists" and then claim that they were shoving anything down anyone's throats, would we?

[superconnected]

26. as I try to find a place to complain to the web master

Gee on some of these evolution threads people are being called stupid, low iq, mentally ill etc. for their religious beliefs.

I call that trying to pound down someones beliefs and shove your own down someones throat.

I do not come to the du to be insulted for my religion.

Please tell me where I formally complain?

- Found it, thanks. :)

[m berst]

27. are you talking to me?

I didn't mention religion, and I know nothing about your religion and didn't claim to.

[ilife]

29. can't take the heat

get out of the kitchen ;->

i for one am scared to death of your 'religious' BELIEFS :scared:

let the INQUISITION begin!

:hi:

[MaineYooper]

39. your religious beliefs are your own business

until you try to inject them into a scientific forum (which admittedly these discussions typically aren't). In my case, and likely others, that primarily means the education of our children.

I am a scientist, I work in computational biology, and I can tell you that in my community, which I judge as one of the more qualified to judge the merits of the question, there is no debate. Evolution is accepted as axiomatic. We certainly don't understand all its details, and there remains much to be investigated, however, it simply is the best theory available to explain what we see, especially at the molecular level.

While I am somewhat agnostic in my beliefs, I have had the great fortune to have extended contact with two Methodist ministers (edit: AND one Lutheran) who found no conflict between their christian beliefs and evolution, but that's probably because neither of them found the necessity to read the beginning of Genesis as a literal history or scientific text. Their belief (which I agree with) is that evolution is a theory about a *process.* My own belief is that evolution has room, but no need, for a role for God.

If people want to believe a creator put us here fully formed that's fine, but it is a misrepresentation to state that there is scientific evidence to support this belief. I base this statement on the overwhelming support for the principle of evolutionary development among the scientific community that has the training to fully understand and interpret the evidence. (and many of these people could be classified as religous and/or Christian)

I have tried to explain my view without insulting yours- but that's your call, I guess.

[mitchum]

48. Well, did you come to DU to disrupt then?

Just asking in the spirit of inquiry, you know?

[Nordic]

51. well, around here, if you're ignorant, we're gonna tell you!

You're welcome! Now go do some homework!

Get yourself educated. Read some science.

Do you know what "science" is?

[Rush1184]

69. Ignorance is diffrent than stupidity

Ignorance is diffrent than stupidity... I have not seen anyone call anyone mentally ill, low IQ, etc. I have seen people call other people here ignorant, which is completly diffrent. Stupid means lack of intelligence, ignorance means lack of knowledge.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

70. I believe the capital of Japan is Knoxville. I demand not to be mocked. nt

[ilife]

28. well, ignoring it got us into this dangerous mess

though, nobody expects the spanish inquisition :scared:

[superconnected]

30. You guys are just rude.

I feel sorry for you.

I hope all Christians who are also democrats just stop coming here. It's a hostile environment for Christians.

The United States has discrimination laws against attacking people for their religious beliefs. I would say several posts on the evolution threads are only discrimination and biggotry.

Complaint sent.

[ilife]

31. cya

don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split'ya :P

[superconnected]

33. To - CYA

I didn't say I was leaving, I'm going to stick around and complain awhile because you guys are an insult to democrats.

It would be bad to have people so biggoted represent Democrats.

But I can see eventually trying to lead the Christians out of here. And Jews, and Muslims, and Hindus and anyone else with a religious belief.

[ilife]

34. my mother is 2 minutes away from being a saint (Catholic)

and said the devil was inside me when i stooped believing (13yo) but i still love her, and take care of her and she still loves me, ain't got nuttin to due with evolution though.

:hi:

[MelanieArt]

42. Get a freaking spine and stop yer bitching.

I haven't seen so much whining since the last time I last looked at that Freeper board.

If you haven't noticed it's the crazy fundies we have an issue with. If you can't tell the difference between one of them and a religious person then sorry, I can't help you.

[Kingshakabobo]

43. Phil Parlock? is that you?

[Hans Delbrook]

49. Do not presume to speak for all Christians

Let alone people of other faiths.

I, for one, find it insulting that you think all Christians must agree w/ your POV. I'm a Christian and I find DU a wonderful place to be. Non-believers do not make me uncomfortable. Non-thinkers do.

[MelanieArt]

60. Aw, a big hug to you from an Atheist.

It always makes me feel so good to know that there are believers out there who feel like you do! :hug:

[Hans Delbrook]

71. Thank you!

I'll take the hug - I don't get that many from "Christians." What ever happened to "they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love?"

[Nordic]

52. you're right. Sorry. The earth is only 4004 years old.

How silly of me to think otherwise.

The DEBBIL put dem dinosaur bones there!

And if I do yoga and medicate, da DEBBIL is gonna enter my brain!

And da DEBBIL is behind astrology!

And the woman that writes those Harry Potter books is ruled by da DEBBIL!

[BillZBubb]

58. Boo, friggin Hoo!

There is no hostility to Christians. There is hostility to ignorance. You continue to blather on about subjects you know nothing about, yet expect people familiar with these issues to give you a free pass. Not gonna happen, dude.

We have evidence supporting the big bang: Cosmic background radiation and inflation. We have evidence supporting evolution. There is no evidence that disproves either. Until contrary evidence is presented they remain the best explanations.

You don't have a bit of evidence to support your "gut feeling".

[hyphenate]

63. Buh-bye eom

[m berst]

66. I am a Christian

There are a few posters IMHO who do in fact bash Christians and I call them on that and we have had some excellent, if heated, discussions. Not on this thread, however, since religion has no place in a discussion about science. Right now H2Oman has started a great thread about the role of science in society and the role of religion, and the relationship between the two.

As a rational person I am disturbed about the interjection of irrational arguments that pose as religious arguments into the arenas of public education, politics and science. As a Christian - and I am very conservative theologically even though I am extremely liberal politically - I am concerned for the damage this is doing to the church. It just makes a mockery of the faith in my opinion to see it used to promote creationism.

Yes, there are people who mock all Christians, but I would remind you that we are not being fed to the lions, and that Christianity - although mostly in a very corrupted modern mass media and politicized incarnation - has saturated secular society in this country.

There are different kinds of truths. The great eternal moral truths of Christianity are debased and devalued when we attempt to make of them something that they are not. Christianity is not a club, it is not a team, it is not a movement, it is not a political philosophy and it certainly is not a scientific discipline.

Christianity lives in your heart - quietly and peacefully - or it doesn't exist at all. It is expressed in tolerance, forgiveness, compassion, charity and in a willingness to use the gifts that God gave you, including your ability to reason, and to let your faith show in the betterment of the lives of those around you.

[Kingshakabobo]

41. NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!!

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

[Hans Delbrook]

50. Whatever you do

Don't bring out....the COMFY chair!

[blueandwhite]

61. lol

[mitchum]

45. Well, don't choke on that SCIENCE

[karlrschneider]

54. I'm using up one of my warnings here. You are a fucking idiot.

Okay, mods, go ahead.

[Fleurs du Mal]

35. The idiocy of Man is unsurpassed

[Just Me]

37. I am 42 years old,...I have NEVER met any such person.

And, I assure you, I mix with EVERYONE in my country.

This is the most egregious form of fanatical fantasy proffered to a public forum, ever.

Un-freakin-believable.

[Nordic]

53. I'm with you. This is pure B.S.

Just like George Bush won because of fundie "values".

Zogby proved otherwise.

It's bullshit and SOOO many people are STILL swallowing it.

Believe nothing.

[muse]

59. Ahhh. But they do exist. In Texas. The South is skewing the poll.

Seriously. Huge issue down here in the South. I've taught high school biology and trust me, there are plenty of people who buy into the statement presented in the opening to this thread - people created just as they are today less than 10,000 years ago - about 6000 years ago, to be exact.

Come down and mix and mingle with us down here, yall! It's a ton of fun!

[Qanisqineq]

65. I only know one such person

and that happens to be my sister, a liberal turned born-again. I'm agnostic but did grow up going to a Lutheran church. We were taught that evolution and the Bible go hand-in-hand, just don't take the 7 days part literally. (Actually, we were told most of the stories in the Bible are fables: Noah and the ark, the guy and the whale, etc.) Most of the religious people I know feel this way -- evolution is real and God may have just helped it all get started or just helped it along once in a while. As an agnostic and a biologist, I have absolutely no problem with that belief. It is people (such as my sister) that completely discount evolution altogether that irritate me. Oh, she does believe in microevolution. :eyes:

[leesa]

47. What is this crap they are selling as news and science

This is going to create a huge backlash against the Fundies pushing this junk down everyone's throats.

[hyphenate]

64. We can only hope

To be honest, my main feeling about these fundies is that they're endangering their own children's futures by sticking with the most radical forms of creationism. These children, very often homeschooled for the WRONG reasons, end up being ignorant of all scientific fact and exploration. They never develop the critical thinking skills needed for many jobs above waiter. The way I look at it, though, is perhaps this is the best thing. After all, all these fundies support war, so their ignorance will keep creating children that can be used as cannon fodder during these pre-emptive strikes.

[JCMach1]

62. that means 65% have no f'ing clue

:grr:

Engough of the DU monkey trial already

[shockra]

67. There's plenty of reason to doubt evolution

The way it's conceived of, now.

I've read hundreds of books on evolution, books refuting neo-Darwinism, and books on Intelligent Design (skipped those on "Creationism" though) and easily the ones with the most merit are those refuting neo-Darwinism. There are plenty of excellent ones now, with far more rigorous arguments and mathematical proofs (like Not By Chance by Lee M. Spetner) than you'll find in the evolution fairy tales. Which is what they read like after you've been exposed to some real thought. They all sound the same, include the same few lame examples, and just basically tell you to believe them that evolution is real. The neo-Darwinist version of it. Richard Dawkins is especially tunnel-visioned, narrow-minded, and misogynistic.

That complex biological forms came into being entirely due to random accidents and "mutations" (which never have been proven to be beneficial, not once) strains not just common sense, but is mathematically impossible. Intelligent Design theory at least proposes that there is *intelligence* at work here, although I don't happen to believe it's attributable to some all-knowing God in the sky.

It really drives me crazy that people will accept what is claimed to be science just because it offers an alternative to religion and they think that makes them look smarter. I'm not a creationist by any means, or even religious, although I consider myself highly spiritual. But I have quite a few problems with the scientific establishment, which denies spirituality altogether. The scientific establishment is very patriarchal and authoritarian (read the excellent The Gendered Atom by Theodore Roszak) and shuts off a lot of avenues of creative thought unnecessarily.

When it comes to human evolution, especially, there are so many prejudices that keep us from understanding our true nature. It's taken for granted that men are superior to women, whites are superior to everyone else, heterosexuality is better than homosexuality, etc. When we also consider ourselves superior to all other animals, and the earth just something that exists to be plundered, then we cannot consider a theory on the "evolution of life" based on self-serving rationales to be all that logical, or true. And based on what passes for proof, when examined, it's not.

[dummy-du1]

68. You read the wrong books

That complex biological forms came into being entirely due to random accidents and "mutations" (which never have been proven to be beneficial, not once) strains not just common sense, but is mathematically impossible. Intelligent Design theory at least proposes that there is *intelligence* at work here, although I don't happen to believe it's attributable to some all-knowing God in the sky.


I don't know who said this "entirely due to random" part, it certainly
wasn't Charles Darwin. He wrote a lot about natural selection, though. Perhaps you shouldn't just read some "hundred books on evolution", but start with Darwin's Origin of Species?

If you think that Evolutionary Theory has mathematical flaws that you found, you should perhaps write a paper about it - with the mathematical proof. Perhaps you could revolutionize science? But it's quite obvious that you never heard about the important roles populations play in Evolution, about the Hardy-Weinberg Equilibrium Model or the applications of Game Theory in Evolution. So, I think you have a lot to learn before anyone takes you serious as a scientist.

I really don't get it, why so many people think they can refute the theory of evolution after reading some popular science or "science" books so easily. Why don't they try it with the theory of relativity
or quantum mechanics? (OK, some cranks do even that.) Do you think you can skip the math part in evolution and still make some valid points against it? Why not refute quantum mechanics and state that semi-conductors are driven by tiny fairies that are too small to be detected by secular science.

[SemperEadem]

72. I wasn't polled, so that percentage number is false

they have not asked every single person in this country--they only polled a small amount of this country's populatin. A small margin of people cannot be reflective of the whole.

[American Tragedy]

73. Even the POPE says that evolution is factual - NOT A THEORY!

I think most people on this site appreciate how reactionary the Pope tends to be on many (not all) issues. If he is willing to recognize science, I find it terrifying that half of America cannot.

[HEyHEY]

75. Shold read "45 per cent of USA stupid"

[RPM]

76. yep - and you know what....

... even fewer think that there is something wrong with the USA these days...

[donheld]

77. You'll all have to admit

what ever evidence there is for evolution is far more substantial than the evidence for creationism. I'm sorry but believing something just because the bible says it is really moronic if you ask me.

[Endangered Specie]

78. And most Americans cant find Iraq on a map,

or can describe how a key lock works, or how a toilet works, or do basic high school math, or read books.
I could go on...

[ixat]

79. Wait, wait, 47% of Kerry voters think that

God created humans in present form about 10,000 years ago? How?!?!?