To adults who rationalize spanking kids

[undergroundpanther]

http://www.kinderstart.com:8080/kindertoday/1003748138/index_html

Delivering a so-called “good smack” may indeed serve an adult’s need to relieve tension and anger, but at the expense of the child. While the adult’s relief is temporary, the effect on the child is permanent. Spanking does not teach children that cars and trucks are dangerous. It teaches them that the grown-ups on whom they depend are dangerous.



...http://www.vachss.com/guest_dispatches/alice_miller2.html

The explanation of this fact is that information about the cruelty suffered during childhood remains stored in the brain in the form of unconscious memories. For a child, conscious experience of such treatment is impossible. If children are not to break down completely under the pain and the fear, they must repress that knowledge. But the unconscious memories of the child who has been neglected and maltreated, even before he has learned to speak, drive the adult to reproduce those repressed scenes over and over again in the attempt to liberate himself from the fears that cruelty has left with him.


http://www.scorpitos.com/articles/a_miller.htm


Please _ Don't be a bully to your own kids who depend on you and your kindness to survive.. You are the BIG parent,so you have the power,tremendous totalistic power over your little kid by default,so don't abuse the trust your kids must give you by making yourself dangerous to them because you are pissed or have your ego riled up. Be the adult.Not the bully.Not the Dom, Not the child.
If parents look squarely at thier own parents and stop calling abuse good,maybe we won't as a species need to instigate wars to discharge and reinforce the old fearful and sadistic memories and betrayals locked deep in our brains ,poisons of parents,perpetuated between generations anymore..

[Lucky Luciano]

1. I have no kids...

but a little smack may be ok for things that they for SURE know are wrong....but they do it anyway...running near traffic - of course you have to handle this with kindness...but throwing a tantrum when they don't want to clean the room or some mess they made at an age when they are competent to clean the mess??? Outright disrespect?? I dunno...might be time for a little spanking or at least a really dirty look that makes them feel ashamed and guilty for what they have done.

[bluestateguy]

2. I disapprove of spanking, but I believe it should be legal

The law should specify at what point spanking becomes abuse, but I believe parents deserve some leeway.

[donheld]

3. Me too

some parents may have a * in the making. To those i say :spank: away :evilgrin:

[shesemsmom]

Indiana law states

you may swat them on the bottom with only an open hand, and nothing else. I think that is reasonable. When mine needed she got just that, and an occasional love pat to while walking by....

[shesemsmom]

183. Indiana law states

you may swat them on the bottom with only an open hand, and nothing else. I think that is reasonable. When mine needed she got just that, and an occasional love pat to while walking by....

[thephaseshift]

4. Depends how it's done

As usual in real life, the truth is always in a grey zone. I had two little brothers and we all received occasional spankings. None of us would consider it a bad thing...UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS:

- the parents need to be loving and supportive most of the time. The child HAS to have the feeling that it can come home and feel safe and loved there under almost any circumstances.
- the spanking should be done quickly and without hurting the child; in this case its effectiveness lies not in the pain but in the element of surprise (i.e. that it's coming from an otherwise gentle parent). It shows the child that what it did was *really* not nice. I imagine that reminding the child of the last spanking will be scary enough in many subsequent cases.
- should only be used in the worst of cases, i.e. not more than, say, once a week or so max.

I child needs to understand that it has to bear the consequences of its negative actions AS WELL AS get rewarded for positive things, and feel loved in general. Without all these things, I think the kid will grow up either too spoiled (100% parental tolerance), or too rebellious and maybe even aggressive (if spanked all the time, no positive reinforcement at all).

That's my take on spanking. And of course I don't think it should be illegal - that's just silly. People need to have their freedom, but of course within limits.

[King Coal]

25. Well said.

Sometimes a spanking is in order.

[roguevalley]

5. I suppose they will be looking into dogs that cuff their pups,

cats that cuff their kittens, etc. A tap on the butt never hurt anyone. Beating a child is different. Good grief. No one advocates hitting a child to death. A slap on the butt is not beating.

[shraby]

6. My mother used to call it justice that's swift and to the point.

Children have to learn there are consequences to their misdeeds and I don't think "time outs" quite cut the mustard. They also need to learn that under certain circumstances they absolutely have to do what they are told immediately, i.e. don't run into the road because you'll get hit by a car, light sockets are not toys to stick things into, come or answer when you are called because Mom's heart skips a beat or two when there is no reply when calling their children.
Sometimes it takes a smack on the (padded) behind for the lessons to be remembered.
Much easier to teach the children lessons while young because when they become teen-agers it becomes a whole different story.

[sangh0]

28. "Children have to learn there are consequences to their misdeeds"

Your claim does not support the solution proposed. Who said that spanking is the only, or even the best, way to teach a child that actions have consequences?

I don't think "time outs" quite cut the mustard.

You're entitled to whatevery opinions you choose, but there is a great deal of evidence indicating that "time outs" and similar non-violent forms of discipline (as opposed to punishment) work much better with fewer unwanted "side effects"

they absolutely have to do what they are told immediately, i.e. don't run into the road because you'll get hit by a car, light sockets are not toys to stick things into, come or answer when you are called because Mom's heart skips a beat or two when there is no reply when calling their children

Funny how that last one, based on the mother's convenience and sense of well-being, slipped in as something the child "has to do"

YOu might want to lead what Dr George Lakoff has to say about the idea that punishment teaches children that there are consequences to their misdeeds.

[hemp_man]

30. Spanking did not work for me...

You're entitled to whatevery opinions you choose, but there is a great deal of evidence indicating that "time outs" and similar non-violent forms of discipline (as opposed to punishment) work much better with fewer unwanted "side effects"

I think it depends on the child. I know spanking is what worked for me as a child. My Mom used to use "time-outs". I had to sit on a chair for "X" minutes. For me, it was a game. I used to see how many toys I could sneak with me onto the chair (if she caught me with a toy she would take it, and I would then produce another until it was discovered, and so on). Or, since she was usually busy with housework while I sat on the chair, I would sneak into the kitchen and bump the kitchen timer ahead a few minutes when she wasn't looking.

My father, on the other hand, spanked, and how. My father's will always commanded more respect than my mother's. In fact, the only way my Mother's will really had any impact is if she emphasized it with the threat, "Wait 'till your father gets home!"

Spanking worked on me. It may not be necessary with all children, but it sure was with me.

Ben

[okieinpain]

139. I hear ya. not saying it isn't possible. but all the folks I know that

are not spankers, have some bad ass kids. I'm not saying that all kids that get spanked are little bundles of joy either. but the ones that get a little something every now and then, are a little easier to deal with.

Sorry don't mean to offend you non-spankers. I've got lots of love for ya.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

170. Until a child hits a certain age time outs and discussions don't work.

They need instant consequences. As a child, when we were getting into things, we'd get our hands slapped or we'd get our but lightly to moderately spanked. We were never hurt by it. I'm so tired of good parents being criticized because of this issue. They don't beat their kids. They spank them and get their attention and teach them that actions have consequences. I know a lot of kids that have never been spanked and I know it was a mistake because time out isn't enough of a threat to them.
Duckie

[napi21]

186. THANKS! I've been saying this forever and have been badly

flamed for it every time! Some seem to equate spanking with beating, leaving welts, broken bones, etc. and it's NOT!

The type of punishment you use does depend on the individual child. For some, timeout does work, but those are few and far between! A big part of growing up is challenging authority and asserting independence, and it begins with a baby's effort to walk. At a year old, a child doesn't have the mental capacity to understand time out when he reaches up to play with the knobs on the stove, or wants to feel the fire in the fireplace, and you certainly don't want him to learn the consequences by feeling them! A quick smack on the back of his hand usually does the job...even though with some it takes fome than once.

[Mabeline]

33. I agree...seems to me..

I see most parents that I consider good parents utilize all forms of discipline. If you don't have children who mind you and if you don't get your childrens respect when they are young those teen years will be pure he!!.

We use time outs, taking away, apologizing (make them hug, they HATE that when they get older), and spanking. And we have well behaved polite children in public too.

I think the forms of punishment I'd disageree with is "beating" all the time for everything they do bad. Hot saucing for bad words or lying.

[unblock]

7. my own experience is that it doesn't teach what parents think it teaches

like most kids, i tried to be a good little kid. parental approval was important to me, as it is for all kids.

i was only spanked maybe half a dozen times as a child, and ALWAYS it was because i didn't "get it". i did something wrong, but wasn't trying to do something wrong. my father got frustrated and angry, and spanked me.

so, to this day, i remember my father's anger, i remember the bewildered feeling of "what the hell did i do wrong, i don't understand?" and of course, i remember the disapproval and the pain.

but i have NO recollection of what i did wrong on any of those few occassions.

however, there were quite a few more times when i did what *i* wanted to do instead of what my parents wanted to do. then, i was punished by a stern look and possibly having to go to my room or being grounded. i remember quite a few such occassions and i also remember a number of the specific lessons learned.


i think spanking teaches kids nothing good that can't be learned through other means of parental disapproval and loss of privileges.


oh, and also, looking at the neighborhood kids, the kids that get spanked are UNIVERSALLY undisciplined monsters and troublemakers, whereas the kids that never get spanked are ALWAYS well behaved. obviously, the causation could be either way there, but still.

i hope that when i have kids i have the discipline and self control to never spank.

[DemExpat]

10. This is exactly how I experienced my spankings!

i was only spanked maybe half a dozen times as a child, and ALWAYS it was because i didn't "get it". i did something wrong, but wasn't trying to do something wrong. my father got frustrated and angry, and spanked me.

so, to this day, i remember my father's anger, i remember the bewildered feeling of "what the hell did i do wrong, i don't understand?" and of course, i remember the disapproval and the pain.

but i have NO recollection of what i did wrong on any of those few occassions.

Nothing more to add to this....except that my father's anger scared the crap out of me, and spankings left me feeling violated to my core and totally rejected.

:thumbsdown:

DemEx

[YellowRubberDuckie]

171. That was bad parenting on his part for not explaining why it was wrong.

It wasnt' the spanking that was inappropriate here...it was his lack of explaining himself and reassurance that he loved you.
Duckie

[cattleman22]

24. Exact opposite experience

I was never spanked for an accident or anything other than deliberate misbehavior on my part.

From my own perspective, I honestly can not think of a more effective punishment. Timeouts never bothered me as I liked to be alone. Sending me to my room never bothered me as I enjoyed that. I was never much intow atching TV, so preventing that as a punishment was not effective.

Punishments that would have been effective would have been preventing me from reading books. But I think a parent who prevents a child from reading books as a punishment is far worse that a parents who uses spankings.

[hemp_man]

31. Hehehe....

i was only spanked maybe half a dozen times as a child, and ALWAYS it was because i didn't "get it". i did something wrong, but wasn't trying to do something wrong. my father got frustrated and angry, and spanked me.

so, to this day, i remember my father's anger, i remember the bewildered feeling of "what the hell did i do wrong, i don't understand?" and of course, i remember the disapproval and the pain.

See, like I said, I think it depends on the kid. Myself, I always knew I was "crusing for a brusing" (not literally, of course). See, I always pushed the boundaries.

One of the earliest spankings I remember I was, gosh, had to be about 4 years old. Somehow, I picked up that it was cool to call people "man". You know, like, "Hey, man! How 'ya doin'?", or "Cool, man!" So one night we were at the dinner table and I called my dad "Man". My parents told me not to do it, because it was disrespectful. So I did it again. They said not to do it, so I giggled and said it again. For me, it was in exercise in seeing how far I could push their buttons, though of course I didn't have that level of comprehension of the situation at the time. It ended in me getting a spanking, at which point I figured out they were pretty serious about the whole "man" thing and I didn't do it again.

Without spanking, I'm sure my parents could have wasted time going through a whole series of progressively more unpleasant things to do to me, but ultimately, how much reasoning are you going to try to go through with a four-year-old? An exercise that would probably end with a spanking anyway (with me ;)?

Ben

[unblock]

32. now THAT's a particularly idiotic reason for spanking

although i'm completely opposed to spanking, i do have some tolerance for parents who view use it, as a last resort, when trying to teach a child self-preservation such as not running into the street blindly.

or, at least, when i child is "old enough to know better".

but a four year old misbehaving is to be expected, and expecting a four year old to stop instantly is unrealistic. i agree that spanking might be the only way of stopping the four year old from saying "man", but parents should know better than to think that instantly stopping such minor misbehaving is so important as to justify deploying the parental atomic bomb.

the handled properly, the "man" thing would have been a phase that might have lasted a month and then gone away. BIG DEAL.

expecting all manner of respect, beyond the comprehension of the child, from a four year old, is the height of egoism. your father spanked you because of his own insecurities, not out of any proper desire to better you.

[Politicub]

143. Same here

I was spanked only a handful of times by my father. Well, actually whipped with his belt. I still remember the anger in his eyes. Like you, I don't remember what I did to warrant it.

Luckily it didn't happen regularly, but it taught me to fear him. I was well into adulthood before I began to trust him again.

[booksenkatz]

8. Thank you, I agree completely

I was spanked regularly as a child, by a very nice mom, and all it did was a) confuse me that my very nice mom was hitting me, and b) result in an adult who felt she's a totally worthless piece of shit, worthy only of being beaten. I got into an abusive relationship in college and re-enacted much of that garbage. It also screwed up my ideas about love: love is when someone hits you, hurts you.

It wasn't until I got into serious therapy at age 32 (when I was planning on ending my marriage to a perfectly wonderful man for no other reason than I felt unworthy of him) that I got about 80% of the garbage worked out, but it will always be a scar on my soul. My anger and feelings of unworthiness are something I will always have to deal with. I don't remember the physical feeling of spanking, but I remember how it destroyed my soul every time my mom spanked me, and I don't even remember the lessons it was supposed to teach! I only remember I-made-Mom-mad-oh-please-please-please-don't-hit-me.

The wonderful man I was lucky enough to marry (and have stayed with for 23 years -- the therapy worked!) comes from a family that never spanked. They viewed it as quite bestial. We've never spanked our 5-year-old son, and he's a sweet and kind boy who is extremely well behaved in any setting. People always marvel about his behavior, so I don't think it's just me being biased! Spanking just never made sense, I can't imagine hitting him for misbehaving. I don't hit my husband or my friends when they misbehave; why should I hit a small boy for misbehaving? The ONLY difference to my mind is that he's smaller than my husband or friends. The idea that a child becomes "too big to spank" just demonstrates that it's all about size and power! Not a lesson I want my son to learn. Nor do I want to "gift" him with the guilt and self-hatred that keeps on giving forever. I want him to stay sweet and kind. I want him to treat women well. I want him to understand what violence is, what it does, and when it is genuinely required.

It seems that spanking screws up some people and leaves others unscathed. So perhaps it depends upon the child. But I wouldn't want to take that chance, since I have no crystal ball to see whether my child is going to be one of the lucky ones or not!

[indigobusiness]

9. Everybody must get spanked.

Spanking should never be an act of violence.

It is a psychological tool of transactional analysis. It defines roles and can help children tremendously if used correctly. I helped raise a beautiful and gifted, if difficult child. There was a time when she tested me, and I let her know how it grieved me that her behavior was forcing the need for a spanking (which rarely if ever happened after this epiphany). That was like a thunderbolt to her psychological development, and she saw herself from the outside for the first time...and saw the problem in the context of her doing. That made a world of difference. Don't recall any spankings after that. All I had to do was act a bit sad and say "Oh darling, please don't put put me in the position of having to spank you"...her compassion would overcome her ego and she'd see me as being victimized and all the foolishness would evaporate.

I'm sure all the "professionals" think I was being cruel, somehow. But, I can guarantee the girl, now a woman, appreciates it to this day.

edit to add- I agree with the anti-spanking posts above, it can be a vicious instrument of cruelty, as well.

[DemExpat]

11. My thoughts on this are that parents who know how to correctly use the

tool are few and far between......
So advocating spanking as nature 'intended' it to be used (like animals do) is dangerous for us (de-natured) f**ked up humans, imo.

This comes across as very manipulative to me..sorry....
All I had to do was act a bit sad and say "Oh darling, please don't put put me in the position of having to spank you"...her compassion would overcome her ego and she'd see me as being victimized and all the foolishness would evaporate.
This type of behavior I recognize from my Mom, and not for one second did I feel compassion or guilt for causing her sadness for needing to punish me...I loathed her for this ploy!

Just to show how children react very differently to parental correction and behavior. For one child it might work, for the other it won't.

DemEx

[Donkeyboy75]

12. Exactly. It works for some, doesn't for others.

To make it a black and white argument is foolish, and we've had this argument at DU many times. There is no cookie-cutter way to discipline a child. It's just not that easy.

[indigobusiness]

13. Children can be quite manipulative,as well...

Though, I can see your point. I can assure you it was done in complete sincerity, was not merely manipulative and was not an empty threat. The little girl I mentioned would've seen through that in a heartbeat. She could spot falseness a mile away, and never respected phonies. It was an honest transaction, and had to be...to be effective.

I understand your reservations, this is a diifficult thing to communicate convincingly. Personally, this issue strikes me as very complicated...I'm quite ambivalent. Gentleness and kindness should be enough, but sometimes aren't. Complete honesty and candor are essential. Manipulation is the worst.


edit- I shouldn't have said 'acted', more like 'projected'...it did sadden me. And, it wasn't guilt tripping. A subtle, but important, distinction.

[American Tragedy]

153. What do you mean everybody must get spanked?

Plenty of people have grown into decent human beings without having been spanked in their lives.

[indigobusiness]

154. You need

a good spanking.

[American Tragedy]

158. Okay. Only if you administer the blows.

[indigobusiness]

160. The night is looking up.

I was hoping you'd say that. May I also handle the terminology?

[American Tragedy]

164. You may indeed, but why?

Am I not able?

I apologize for the late response, by the way. I went to sleep, in expectation of writing a ridiculous essay this morning - very shortly from now. Unfortunately the physical assault may have to wait.

[indigobusiness]

174. Nevermind that, it's settled...

are you ready for your flogging?

[RobinA]

178. Is This Serious?

"All I had to do was act a bit sad and say "Oh darling, please don't put put me in the position of having to spank you"...her compassion would overcome her ego and she'd see me as being victimized and all the foolishness would evaporate."


OMG this makes me cringe and hyperventilate just reading it. Talk about a vicious instrument of cruelty. I can't imagine doing this to a child.

[seabeyond]

14. relieve the adults tension

ya lets just assume that is what it is about, merely and purely for relieving the adult tension. that first paragraph is just plain......presumptious and condescending

we know the difference between abuse and not. every adult knows when they are doing mean or not. we as a society gets to walk the complicated balance of judging whether a parent steps over line or not. as hard as it is, just life.

otherwise stay out of parents business whether you agree or not

(for clairification, i dont spank, i think it is a lazy way of parenting, but kids knowing i dont spank or cause pain, knows they have an advantage too)

[quaker bill]

15. Spanking is counterproductive and never necessary

I have never spanked or otherwise physically punished my children. It has never been necessary. One is graduating college next term and the other is entering high school next year. The elder one a boy the younger a girl. Both are self-motivated honors students. Some discipline, typically a timeout or a fatherly lecture was rarely, but occasionally needed with the boy. The girl has never needed more than a direct request, on rare occasion to encourage her to clean up her room.

Children question authority when it is used arbitrarily and inconsistently. If the only way left to maintain the respect and authority over your children is physical domination and humiliation, then the battle was lost a very long time ago.

Spanking symbolizes that the relationship between parent and child is broken and it only exacerbates the rift. It is profoundly unfortunate and unnecessary.

[annarbor]

141. Well good for you and your children...

So.... no other honor roll student that loves his/her parents was ever spanked as a child?

Just asking?
Ann Arbor

[sendero]

16. I dunno....

.... I sometimes wonder if any of these people ever raised boys.

I've probably spanked my kids a sum total of 3-4 times between the 3 of them, but let me tell you there ARE times when a swat is the only thing that will get their attention.

I was spanked about 3-4 times as a child by my parents and once at school. Of all the crap I had to put up with in my childhood, getting spanked was a non-event to me, I knew I had it coming, it was over and forgotten in minutes.

I understand that human beings are complex creatures and for some a spanking might be traumatizing. It is my guess that most of those kids never do anything to merit one anyway.

I also understand that in a household where spanking becomes routine, something is wrong. If it becomes routine, it is not working anyway, why continue it?

[jpgray]

17. Some of the black and white views on this are interesting

I'd like to witness some of the day-to-day arguments these posters have with their kids. Who wants to wager they wouldn't exactly read like a Socratic dialogue all the time?

:)

In my view, some light and rare physical reinforcement is perfectly acceptable, and is prevalent throughout the natural world. If all you ever need for your kid is time out or didactic lecturing, you must have the most boring child on the face of the earth. You can easily scar kids emotionally with just words, but they won't be outlawed anytime soon. The spanking in isolation isn't the problem.

[Riptide]

18. My kids aren't boring, we just have to work harder as parents...

when we choose not to use violence as a teaching tool.

I am a teacher in a middle school. If I can control a classroom of 30 preteens without resorting to violence, then I should certainly be able to control my own 3 children without hitting them.

I do not have boring kids. My children are 13, 10 and 6, and YES, I have a son! He is different than the girls in that he is much more active and physical. However, I believe it is just as wrong for me to hit my children as it would be if my husband were to hit me. Violence is wrong, especially against those who are half your size and who can't choose to leave if they don't like it.

Have I wanted to hit? Hell, yes!! But, I've also wanted to hit my husband at times, and I don't do that.

My children do not run into traffic or stick their fingers in light sockets. We were able to teach them about safety, without hitting.

Parenting without violence can be done, with all children, it just takes a lot more time and patience.

[jpgray]

21. I guess I don't view all spanking as violence

A light swat on the rear to me is like the example given above of a cat or dog cuffing one of its brood gently--just a bit of physical reinforcement.

[seabeyond]

22. the wonderful nifty thing, you get to raise them exactly as

you see fit. you dont have to spank them evah..........

i didnt need spankings as a child. hated them didnt want them and was the perfect little child to make sure i didnt get them. but the few i had, was not the trauma you elude to. and i think most that reflect 4 decades back, when spanking was part of discipline and parenting, we have it in a place where it is a non issue. a punishment, gotten, done and over with. and not to relieve parent anger, but done as a punishment, not more or less

i am opposed to violence in all ways, ergo i dont hit my kids. but then i dont tease my kids, make my kids less or do anything else that may make them feel bad about themselves. words to a child can be just as or more painful

i have one child, easy as pie to talk to and resolve, and i have one, challenges everything and everyone and demands. basic personality, as a newborn. and i wonder if a good swat will put it in its place, but then being opposed to spanking i dont. what if........i am being a bad parent cause the personality of second child needs a good swat to know the seriousness.

i dont know. i am opposed, so i continually try the talking to let him know respect out is respect in. and you want that respect, so hand it over to others.

but i am not going to tell other parents how to do their job. just not. i can see abuse, and i can see parenting tool

[Kitka]

27. You said that perfectly, and I completely agree. Spanking is violence.

[northzax]

68. If all spanking is violence

then all time outs are denial of freedom, ergo child abuse.

I recall being spanked once as a child, the first was when I ran into the street at about 5, my mom picked me up, said 'no' very clearly and swatted me bum. I was shocked that I had done something that made her freak out that much, and didn't go near the street for at least 6 months. It wasn't the fact that it hurt, it was more the shock.

Spanking, like all serious discipline, works best as a very, very, rare occurence. For instance, I was grounded only twice in my life, once for a weekend, and once for two weeks. not because I didn't do anything worthy of being grounded in other families, but because my parents saved it for the most egregious offenses (the first was getting into a fight at school and getting suspended, the second for forging my dad's name on a letter to my teacher) If you do the same discipline over and over again, you are counter-productive. Spanking, and grounding are nuclear options, to be used only in serious cases. Some children will never push that limit. Some will only do it once. Some will do it every week until you figure it out. that's life.

[Kitka]

88. Sorry, but I don’t agree it’s ever used in a “best” case scenario.

First, I think that those that claim spanking isn’t violence are saying so to make themselves feel better. Understandable, but let’s be honest here. Look, I’m not saying spanking is violence that should require one’s children being taken away – the world isn’t black and white and I don’t believe that should be the case. But that doesn’t mean that it’s not very obvious that when someone hits another, whether it’s on their butt or elsewhere, that’s an act of violence. You can claim that it’s necessary violence, but it’s still violence.

I was spanked 3 times that I can remember. No, I don’t think my mom was horrible for doing so, but I sure remember the fact that she did it, and it doesn’t jive with the patient and respectful mom I had the other 6,567 days of my childhood. I love my mom more than anything in this world and it pains me to say that she’s been ‘violent’ to me on 3 occasions, but she was. I can easily forgive that, but at least I’m honest about what it was.

In contrast, most of the time she would talk to me about what I had done wrong. Hearing the pain in her voice when I had disappointed her was much more effective than her swatting at me in deterring future mess ups. I think that if we raise compassionate children we can easily teach them right and wrong through discussion, not hitting.

It’s working great so far for my 2 kids, a boy and a girl. I’ve never felt the need to hit them, yet they are the best behaved children I’ve ever met in my life.

[northzax]

96. to each his own

it seems to be working for you. How is a gentle swat more of an act of violence than forcing a child with ADD to stay still? I'd say the latter is much more cruel than the former. Both can obviously be taken to extremes, or even be a regular thing. This is where we disagree, I suppose, your children seem to be doing fine, I'm glad to hear.

[noiretextatique]

34. there are definite cultural differences on the issue of spanking

i seen far too much outright parental abuse to condone any form of physical and verbal violence. i had two childhood friends who were murdered by a parent.
i think spanking it instills fear in children, and i think it teaches them to react and respond with violence.
most adults who think spanking is fine were beaten themselves...and so the cycle continues.

[jpgray]

87. My mother spanked me once or twice, and I never feared her

It's not violence. You can't equate a swat on the butt with a backhand to the face--they aren't the same thing.

[Kitka]

91. I never said they were the same thing.

They're different degrees of violence, but still acts of violence. How can you honestly say that hitting isn't violence?

[jpgray]

125. My girlfriend will playfully hit me on the shoulder if I tease her

Is that violence? No. It's an effective form of communication because it conveys an idea through one of the senses. Spanking can do the same thing, without being violent or hurtful. When I was spanked by my parents, it never caused me any physical pain--I would be baffled by anyone who would describe it as violence.

[Politicub]

144. What about a belt to the legs?

Is that acceptable to you? Only if its done with love in mind? To imprint the right way of thinking?

[American Tragedy]

150. So, any child who doesn't need to be smacked is BORING?

Interesting. I guess I was very boring, since my parents elected to explain mistakes in my behavior to me and punish accordingly, yet never laying a hand on me. Not only was I never spanked, I was never sent to the principal's office, never arrested, and had a totally clean juvenile record. How boring of me!

[ecstatic]

19. An alternative point of view

A lot of families choose spanking as the primary form of discipline--if the parents don't do it, the police certainly will!

[sangh0]

29. Certainly?

I love the way some are so sure about things that no one really knows for sure.

I wasn't spanked, and I've never been arrested, let alone convicted of any crime.

[jhain]

20. thank you

http://www.nospank.net/toc.htm

[Lerkfish]

23. people always comment on how well behaved our 6 yr old boy is...

...and how well-mannered.

We have never spanked him.

We have, however, discussed all punishments (time outs, removal of toys, etc.) in such a way that he understood both what he did wrong, and the exact nature of the punishment.

I was spanked liberally by an emotionally abusive father, and had no desire to go down that road myself. I have been thrilled with the results of rejecting past family history. Our son is a great kid!

[UdoKier]

42. We get the same comments on our kids and we have spanked both of them.

We never did it often, and pretty much never now, but there were a few rare occasions.

I agree that spanking in general doesn't work, and I'm not going to try to defend my spanking, but I don't know if it's realistic to tell people to NEVER spank. There are far more traumatic events happening to kids than spanking.

The few times we've done it were when the kids were behaving VERY badly, and all other attempts at punishments were ignored, or when they were doing something very dangerous.

Childrearing is an incredible job, and I wouldn't judge anyone for doling out a spanking or two. If you can do it and never spank, kudos to you, but don't be too judgmental.

On the other hand, I think kids who are getting bruises, black eyes, etc. need to be removed from the home.

My worst memories growing up were not the rare spankings I received. They were the times when my dad sat in the living room with the lights out, drinking alone. Scared the crap out of me. That was just before the divorce.

Funny, but he got better almost immediately after the divorce, and has been fine since.

[Lerkfish]

85. wasn't aware I was being judgemental (?)

sorry if it came across that way. Just stating out experience. there were a lot of people implying spanking was necessary, and I was just pointing out its not necessarily.

[UdoKier]

86. No, you weren't.

I was talking more about the OP and some of the other replies.

Kudos to you on your experience with your kids.

I started out making the points that my kids are well-behaved, too, and ended up going off on a tangent. Sorry.

[Lerkfish]

102. no problemo. nt

[okieinpain]

137. okay, where is this wonder child. is this a virgin birth. I want proof.

[Lerkfish]

165. LOL! no virgins were involved in the making of this boy :)

He IS a miracle child, though, as we were nearly 40 and were told we couldn't have children, had had two failed adoption attempts.

No, I think I should clarify that he IS disciplined within non mutable boundaries. He knows where those boundaries are and we enforce them consistently. I honestly think consistency and proportion are the two most important elements of discipline.

[American Tragedy]

148. That's how I was raised too

"We have, however, discussed all punishments (time outs, removal of toys, etc.) in such a way that he understood both what he did wrong, and the exact nature of the punishment."



I was never spanked. My parents thought it was wrong. My mom punished me very specifically according to the action. When I did badly in school, my mom made me clean and do hard yardwork for a whole day in freezing weather, in order to graphically demonstrate the daily life that could face me if I didn't get a good education. It worked.

I've also never been arrested or gotten into much of any trouble. If that makes me "boring" as one poster above stated, then so be it.

[RUDUing2]

26. some more info

http://thestressoflife.com/to_spank_or_not_to_spank.htm

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0%2C4057%2C2684617%255E1702%2C00.html

A NEW study says occasional, mild spankings of young children are OK and do not create any lasting harm that is carried into adolescence.

Study co-author Elizabeth Owens from the Institute of Human Development at the University of California at Berkeley said a lot of people advocate that any spanking at all is detrimental.

But that's not what they found.

The study found the majority of families disciplined their preschool children by using mild to moderate spanking.

The results showed no negative effects on cognitive, social or behavioural skills of those youngsters and found no difference between them and the 4 per cent of children who were not physically disciplined.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/science/20010824-1158-healthyspank.html

http://people.biola.edu/faculty/paulp/CritiqueStraus.html
.......THE GOOD NEWS (for anti-spanking advocates): This is the first study that finds any detrimental child outcome of nonabusive or customary physical punishment by parents using a design that would not also tend to find detrimental outcomes of most alternative discipline responses (or, for that matter, a wide variety of other interventions, including marital therapy, psychotherapy, or cancer treatment).

Larzelere's review of the literature (Pediatrics, 1996 (Oct.), pp. 824-828, 858) found that the strongest previous design with "detrimental" child outcomes was a longitudinal association without controlling for child misbehavior at Time 1. If managed care were using the same reasoning, they would deny payments for marital therapy because those who received marital therapy last year were not now doing as well maritally (on the average) as those who had no need of such therapy last year. This problem is called the intervention selection bias (i.e., the tendency of any intervention for an enduring problem to be positively associated with subsequent problems associated with the original problem being intervened for). The Straus et al. study is the first to correct for that problem and find any detrimental effect on children.

THE BAD NEWS: The only thing that Straus et al. (1997) have proven is that spanking 6- to 9-year-olds at the rate of 156 times a year has a small, but detrimental effect (accounting for 1.3% of subsequent variation in anti-social behavior). Most children spanked from 1 to 25 times annually were in their most-improved group (because they weren't spanked in the particular week they asked about in the survey; see their Figure 1). Yet media reports are reporting the exaggerated claim that this study has proven that even one spanking has detrimental outcomes. Instead, their results are consistent with Larzelere's (1996) review, which reported that spanking 6- to 9-year-olds once a week was more detrimental than was less frequent spanking.

The evidence for spanking from 26 to 155 times annually is more ambiguous. I would like to see a pairings comparison between the subsequent levels of antisocial behavior comparing those spanked 0 vs. 1 and between those spanked 1 vs. 2 times per week. Straus has not done that, but the only significance tests included the most extreme high frequency group. If spanking is as detrimental as it is being made out to be, it should be easy to get a statistically significant difference between those spanked at the rate of 104 times annually vs. those spanked from 0 to 25 times annually. Given a total variance accounted for of 1.3%, I don't think Straus et al. can obtain that even with their overall sample size of over 800.......

http://www.contemporaryfamilies.org/public/articles/change46.htm
........At one end of the spectrum are opponents like Dr. Murray Straus of
the University of New Hampshire, who blames spanking for ills
including depression, juvenile delinquency, spousal abuse and
lowered mental ability. At the other are tough-love advocates like
Dr. James Dobson, a conservative Christian psychologist, who
advises that "the spanking should be of sufficient magnitude to
cause the child to cry genuinely."

The warring sides have argued their cases on Web sites, in
scientific journals and in the courts, where anti-spankers have
fought to have the practice legally banned and pro- spankers have
fought for laws protecting parents who spank from abuse charges.

But a talk given yesterday at the annual meeting of the American
Psychological Association in San Francisco is likely to amplify the
uproar by several decibels. In it, Dr. Diana Baumrind of the
University of California, asserted that social scientists had
overstepped the evidence in claiming that spanking caused lasting
harm to the child.

"The scientific case against the use of normative physical
punishment is a leaky dike, not a solid edifice," Dr. Baumrind
said.

Dr. Baumrind, a psychologist known for her classic studies of
authoritative, authoritarian and permissive styles of
child-rearing, said she did not advocate spanking. But she argued
that an occasional swat, when delivered in the context of good
child-rearing, had not been shown to do any harm.

The studies cited by opponents of corporal punishment, Dr.
Baumrind contended, often do not adequately distinguish the effects
of spanking, as practiced by nonabusive parents, from the impact of
severe physical punishment and abuse. Nor do they consider other
factors that might account for problems later in life, like whether
parents are rejecting or whether defiant or aggressive children
might be more likely to be spanked in the first place.

Dr. Baumrind described findings from her own research, an analysis
of data from a long-term study of more than 100 families,
indicating that mild to moderate spanking had no detrimental
effects when such confounding influences were separated out. When
the parents who delivered severe punishment - for example,
frequently spanking with a paddle or striking a child in the face -
were removed from the analysis, Dr. Baumrind and her colleague, Dr.
Elizabeth Owens, found that few harmful effects linked with
spanking were left. And the few that remained could be explained by
other aspects of the parent-child relationship.

"When parents are loving and firm and communicate well with the
child," Dr. Baumrind said, "the children are exceptionally
competent and well adjusted, whether or not their parents spanked
them as preschoolers."

The study drew upon data from the Family Socialization and
Developmental Competence Project, which followed families in the
Berkeley, Calif., area over 12 years, from the time their children
were preschoolers until they were adolescents.........

[6000eliot]

35. Don't understand

Why is it against the law to hit an adult but not a child? Isn't this age discrimination?

[Cadence]

163. That's kind of what I was thinking.

What if the same "swats" were given to old people in nursing homes. Would it appear abusive?

[HoosierClarkie]

36. The only thing spanking teaches is

if I do not get my way with your "will", I have the right to hit you.
I would think in the Dem party people would be against using force and pro using techniques. I have three children who are all under seven. I am very stern and consistent in my rules, but I will never make them feel like they deserve to be hit. That is how children view it. A lot of the damage done is not seen by the parents because it manifests itself in sexual relationships later on their adult lives.

[xerox]

37. Who are they?

Every situation is different. I make em do pushups!

[Killarney]

38. We don't hit in our house. Period.

Daddy does not hit Mommy.
Mommy and Daddy do not hit our child. Spanking, swatting, I don't care what you call it. It is not done in our home.

[rene moon]

39. well, good for you

But it is done in ours---only occasionally and only when they need it. But it is never done out of maliciousness. I was spanked and I am not psycho or have issues. I turned out pretty good.

[Killarney]

41. you turned out to be a person that hits her kid

[seabeyond]

44. how arrogant, how f*in arrogant

this is the attitude and behavior that just appalls me with t he democrats. are you questioning the goodness of this person. this post disgusts me more ............

you talk about what a spanking would do to a child, if you talk or give this to a child, way more damage. this is gross. this was done to be mean, to hurt someones feelings to make someone less. that was the sole purpose of this post, yet you will lecture another on love

[Killarney]

51. since you decided to lecture me, I'll explain the obvious

This is a thread about spanking.

People have posted-- I do spank, I don't spank, they list their reasoning, yada yada yada.

This person chose me out of all the posts to be snotty to with her "well, good for you" reply to my post about how I don't spank. She then goes on to say that she spanks and she was spanked and turned out good. I just pointed out the fact. She was spanked and turned out to be a person who spanks. Someone in a post above (sorry, don't have the #) mentioned a good point, that most of the people who spank today are people who were spanked themselves. It's a cycle.

[Forkboy]

75. I thought your post was spot on Killarney

[Politicub]

145. I think your post was great

It is my opinion that most spanking is done in anger by the parent -- like a pressure relief valve. It's more for the parent than the child.

The parent gets some pressure relieved (by delivering "punishment"), but the child harbors the mental scars.

[donheld]

149. I loved Killarney's post too

what kills me is when the parent says "this is gonna hurt me more than it's gonna hurt you" only * lies as well

[fishwax]

157. That line is total BS

I always hated it too. :eyes:

And I'll add my measure of support to Killarney's post.

[RUDUing2]

46. so you shun, segregate, or use solitary confinement? How about

psychological torture or brainwashing? (time outs, sent to room, grounding, reasoning, redirection/teaching to use their other names)

All forms of discipline whether corporal or non-corporal can be used in ways that are abusive and all forms can be construed as abusive if someone wants to twist them that way.

[Killarney]

Nope, sorry to disappoint, but I don't abuse my child in any way.

Yes, it's true that someone who does not spank can still find ways to be abusive to their children. But what's the easiest, most popular, fastest way to hurt your child? Hit him.

I'm just not a violent person. Sorry.

If you're interested in non-violent ways to discipline I would highly recommend Dr. Sears' The Discipline Book. It has great ideas.

[RUDUing2]

57. if you are not teaching your child right from wrong or what is acceptable

in society then you are abusing by neglect.

If you are teaching him/her then you are using some form at the very least of brainwashing....you just don't call it that because it is an acceptable form to you.

Sorry to disappoint you but my 4 kids are all older 24, 19, 16 and 10 and non have any sort of *issues*...all are very well adjusted and well mannered kids/adults. But then they were never abused in any way, manner or form. Were they occasionally swatted? yep..but they also were always loved, hugged, cared for, explained to, reasoned with, etc...oh and they were never sent to time out or grounded, because to me that is worse abuse then a swat...it tells the child that they are so awful that they don't deserve to be around other people..yuck!

damn don't you hate it when your generalizations and beliefs come up against evidence that discredits them...

[Killarney]

59. if you think a time-out damages kids more than hitting them

you've got some marbles loose.

Here's the scenario... little Timmy is throwing a tantrum. Natural behavior for a three year old who sometimes cannot control his toddler emotions. You could:
A) hit him. (or "swat" if that word makes you feel better about what you're doing) Then he learns that hitting is what you do when you are frustrated and angry.
or
B) pick him up and go to his room with him for time-out until he calms down. Once he calms down, you can both go back to the living room/playroom/wherever the tantrum occured.

One way teaches him that when he is frustrated and angry (as a child or adult) to take a break, take a time-out, until you've collected yourself and calmed down. The other way teaches him to strike out, hit, and solve problems with violence rather than calm.

Time-outs are not only for children. Sometimes when adults get so frustrated with their child that they feel like hitting them, they should go put themselves in a time out! Go to the kitchen, drink a glass of water, calm down, then go back when you are calm and you'll be able to parent more effectively.

I truly recommend Dr. Sears' book to you. It has creative ideas.

[RUDUing2]

61. then hitting? no...then a swat on the butt? yes...

too bad you can't support your stance without resorting to hyperbole and inflammatory terms. That shows the weakness of your argument. You realize that if you call it spanking or acknowledge that it is a swat on the butt then you also lose your basis for the claim, so instead you have to use the word hitting to try and place a different image in peoples minds in regards to the issue..GWB would be proud of you, this is a technique he uses to perfection (hence the war in Iraq).

BTW I did post some links to info...take a few moments to look them over. Including one that talks about the problems w/the studies that find all spanking to be detrimental.

[Killarney]

65. Dude, if you want to hit, just do it. You don't need to

defend yourself to me. Go for it. If calling it swatting helps you sleep at night, that's cool.

[RUDUing2]

70. lol..you continue to prove the point..btw read again

my kids are older...I already know how they turned out...guess what..your generalization doesn't hold up...but good try..it is very common for people to refuse to acknowledge their own incorrect assumptions because then they might have to question things that are fundamental to their belief system..which is a very scary thing to have to do. It is much easier to believe that everything is black and white..good and bad...right and wrong..and demonize anyone who is different, believes different or does things different...apparently it is the prefered way of life for the majority of americans...

[Killarney]

95. You're babbling now.

I don't know why you're talking about how you know how your kids turned out. I never said a word about your kids. Never made a "generalization" about your kids. Are you even replying to the right person?

There is no hitting in my home. That's all I'm saying. Again, if you're all gung ho to hit your kid, that's none of my business--like I said before, go for it. It's just not done in my home.

[RUDUing2]

100. uh huh..just can't stop using the inflammatory language can you.

Interesting insite into your parenting style. Thanks.

[Politicub]

146. Maybe you should call it a "feather palm swish"

instead of a swat. That way it sounds like you're fanning your kids instead of hitting them.

[seabeyond]

64. neither one of my kids threw tantrums, so that must mean i

am a better parent

or

could be

i predicted there needs and always accomodated them. watched and observed so much, that i didnt allow them to ever get to the point of frustration to throw a tantrum, ergo, creating an enviroment for them that was unreal not allowing them the ability to experience frustration and how to deal with it. setting them up in later years for total meltdown when they do experience frustrations in life

who the f* knows

this is parenting

[rinsd]

82. I don't have kids.....

"B) pick him up and go to his room with him for time-out until he calms down. Once he calms down, you can both go back to the living room/playroom/wherever the tantrum occured."

But this to me would seem to ENCOURAGE such behavior. Throw a fit and Mom/Dad drop everything and spend some time with you. Sounds like a good deal for the kid.

That's not a comment on your parenting skills. Everyone has their different methods. Frankly I'm just curious since I don't actually have children.

For some reason parents get into arguments about how they raise their kids in similar fashion to religious people arguing about which religion is better. It gets nasty and defensive and usually serves little purpose.

[Killarney]

89. It depends on the situation

in the example I used, I'm imaginging that the child is in the playroom with other kids and a tantrum ensues over a toy or something. Then you take him into his bedroom for a time-out. That is a punishment, not an encouragement, because he has been taken out of the game and into the penalty box (even though it's with you).

If the child is throwing a tantrum because he is being ignored by his parents, then going into time-out with him would be an encouragement, like you said, but in my opinion if a child acts out because he wants the parents' attention... he should GET the parents attention. It's not like he's doing something wrong, he just wants quality time. So, if a child is acting out because he wants you to spend some time with them, then in my opinion you should either stop what you are doing and spend time with him or (if age appropriate) explain that you will play with him when you are done with cooking/the phone/whatever you are doing.

Basically, as a parent, you decide what you will and will not do and work with your tools. As a parent, I have decided that spanking is not one of the tools in my toolbox. Do I think that all kids who are spanked turn out bad? Absolutely not! Are they all traumatized? No. But, that doesn't mean it's still right to do it.

[rinsd]

98. Fair enough...thank you for sharing (nt)

[Killarney]

99. No problem! :)

:toast:

[Swamp Rat]

101. C) Pick up your child and hug her/him, then say:

"My sweet child! What's the matter?" - 1. You affirm your love; 2. You open up communication by letting the child speak first.

[Killarney]

104. That's definitely the first thing you do. Always try to talk

and reason before resorting to any discipline (redirect, timeout, etc). Probably 99% of issues can be resolved just by looking into their eyes and listening and talking.

[Swamp Rat]

110. I'd like to modify your statement

"Probably 99% of issues can be resolved just by looking into their eyes and listening and talking." - Since we are speaking of probabilities, I'll make a minor adjustment:

Probably 100% of issues can be resolved just by looking into their eyes and listening and talking.

[Killarney]

117. I wish!

I don't think it's 100%, but close.

For example, let's say you have a 16 year old who drank and drove. You decide to sit and talk it out rather than punish. Then, next Friday she does it again. Again, you don't want to punish so you talk it out. Then, next Friday she does it again. Do you sit and talk or take away the car for a month?

I wish talking could solve it 100% of the time, but I do think discipline is necessary sometimes. Not spanking, but discipline.

[Swamp Rat]

122. OK, but you got my point

As well, I am on the same page as you concerning the cycle of abuse.

Your anaolgy about teens, cars and drinking is a problem I never had to deal with, but removing their driving privlages immediatly seems like the first step to take. Talking is a good idea too. This conversation between teen and parent could last as long as necessary to get to the root of the problem. The dialog could last a month if necessary, everyday before and after school... parents can explore many avenues that are creative and productive and yet never resort to violence.

[Killarney]

126. Definitely.

We're on the same page. :)

[SemperEadem]

135. and construed to be not-abusive by those

who are too wrapped up in being right.

[Midlodemocrat]

40. We don't spank

never have and we have very well behaved children. This from strangers in malls, airports, restaurants, as well as from family and friends. I had a good friend here doing some painting for me and she was going on and on at Bunko one evening about how well behaved my kids are. I have invested way too much emotionally in them to hurt them by hitting them. I have often felt like it, to be sure, especially with the boy who is more aggressive than his sisters, but I have been able to refrain. I am hoping I can continue to refrain.

[quaker bill]

47. Congratulations

as someone who has never spanked my kids, I can tell you that it is the more successful approach to parenting.

Believe this, If it comes down to a battle of wills, (which it shouldn't, but occasionally does) then the moment you resort to physical punishment, you have lost If the only thing you have left to substantiate your authority is the fact that you are larger and physically stronger, then you have all but nothing left. Bullies are feared but rarely respected.

Legitimate authority does not arise through physical force. It is exactly the same as trying to "create a legitimate democracy at gun point".

[Midlodemocrat]

48. I totally agree

I am just not a violent person and simply couldn't see inflicting physical pain on three of the people I love most. I just couldn't rationalize it. Now, granted, we haven't had any serious issues with them, so that still might come, but I am glad that they were raised in a non violent home.

[Killarney]

54. That is a REALLY good quote.

Legitimate authority does not arise through physical force.

Thanks for that.

[Liberal Classic]

43. What is an appropriate punishment for parents who spank?

Removal of children from home and placement in foster care and incarceration for guilty parent?

If spanking is a violent act, then spanking is child abuse. Child abusers belong in prison.

[UdoKier]

62. Great idea. 1% of the population are already in prison.

Maybe you can get it up to 5%. And think of all the wonderful orphanages that we can fund. The staffs there will surely treat the kids with great kindness. Look at how nicely they treat people in old folks' homes.

That would be much better than the love of a blood parent who has the nerve to dole out an occasional spanking.

:eyes:

[seabeyond]

66. 5% my ass, lol lol lol lol

ya right

[UdoKier]

67. What do you think? 20%?

Not everybody is even a parent, you know...

[seabeyond]

69. lol, i thought about that AFTER i posted

and i am really bad at figuring things like this or distance or whatever, you are probably much more realistic, i had it all the way up to like 35%...bah hahahah

[theboss]

45. What if you aren't angry when you spank.

That's the difference. My parents never spanked me when they were angry with me. They spanked me when a) I did something so incredibly dangerous it scared them and b) after a lecture explaining how I had disappointed them. And even then, I was only spanked maybe four times in my life.

[Midlodemocrat]

50. Personally, I think that is worse

...I think you could rationalize losing it and spanking, but spanking calmly, I think that is simply sadistic.

[quaker bill]

52. While I agree that might be a bit better

It resolves to nothing more than a display of physical and emotional prowess on the part of the parents. "I can do this to you and you have to tolerate it".

Having successfully raised two well behaved kids without ever striking either one, I am quite sure it is simply unnecessary.

[seabeyond]

53. i really resent this holier than thou thread

i am a parent and as i have stated above, i dont spank. my parents did. for any of you clever people to tell me my parents were anything but the best, or they were being bullies or they were teaching me to be violent or all the other outrageous comments over spanking as a punishment result in,......is pure bullshit.

no one can convince me my parents werent good and loving people that had my best interest at heart. no one can convince me my parents were inept, and that i would prefer to have a non spanking judgement i am better parents like some i am hearing

you have your agenda, and it is as black and white as any repug or fundie and if a comment doesnt fit in with that agenda,.........you reject without thought or reasoning

[quaker bill]

58. I do not pretend to be holier than anyone

I do not know you or your parents. It would not be my place to cast judgement on their actions.

I state that spanking is not necessary and I believe counter productive. I did not state that it is evil. Just unnecessary and often poorly considered.

[UdoKier]

60. I respect the opinion of the anti-spanking parents

But I really don't want to hear it from a Psych 101 student who has never raised a child.

It is an overwhelming job, and we need to have a little respect for ANYONE who undertakes it seriously and always with love for their children.

In the last week, I've seen one story about a Mom who cut off her baby's arms, and it died of blood loss, and another couple who were high on crack for 3 days oblivious that their baby died next to them. Who know, maybe these parents never spanked either.

Spanking and swatting have been around for hundreds if not THOUSANDS of years. Many fine parents have been able to utilize them without overdoing it or being cruel. I personally have become convinced in recent years that spanking can be counterproductive, and have pretty much stopped doing it.

But I can't say 100% that I will NEVER do it again.

Psychological abuse can be much more traumatic than mere corporal punishment.

Some parents routinely call their kids "Stupid" and tell them that they wish that they had never been born. That's much more harmful than any spanking, IMO.

[Riptide]

167. Look at it this way...

My parents never put me in a seat belt, didn't give me a helmet to wear when I rode my skateboard, and let me run around unaccounted for every day in the summer. Does that mean they were bad parents who didn't love me or care for me? No, absolutely not.

But, I do not let my kids ride in the car without a seat belt just because I never did and I "turned out alright"

Spanking is the same for me. I don't hold any grudges towards my parents, I just wouldn't do it to my children. We don't hit in our house. Even using a cute little euphemism like "spanking" doesn't take away from the fact that the parent is using violence as a method of teaching their child.

[seabeyond]

172. that is the nifty about evolution

we learn, we grow

i think my point, cause i chose not to discipline thru corporate, is what we do with the attitude beyond our decision in our individual lives.

my mom, watching me with my two little ones, was just like wow. you are good. i wasnt that good. and she started putting guilt on herself. i was way older having kids, 33 and 36. we were financially secure. i had a good spread between ages. she had one every year for three years, all in oct. starting at 19. she died 5 years ago, question all of who she was, seeing being a mother was her last 3 decades of life.

she gave me so much in grace and love and what i give to my boys, i know it is because of her.

they used a belt. i dont give a fuck. way back when, i can remember being clever enough to see her frustration, and the time and time again being gracious in sittin down and talking my brothers into reason, and lordy,.......they didnt do. she set good example in spirituality, and father an excellent example in honesty, hard work good character, integrity.

i have been saying this since coming onto the board. the democrats sit in such arrogance equal to the republican in religion and moral value. the democrats just do it from a different angle, in intellectualism and snotty ness. well as i say fuck you to the republicans, i say fuck you to the democrats in telling me what a good parent is and if you dont follow my rules, you are a piece of shit

and the bottomline, you keep saying why people are not voting for the democrats, why the parents didnt vote democrat, knowing the future for their children, again, what morons.............it is this shit and more that the parents have said fuck you democrats, you are not going to tell me how to raise my kids, i dont want to be you or the little robot you create.

being honest in what i see and feel and hear.

so, decide the people that responsably, as a tool in discipline, that you and i disagree on and chose not to do..............that spank, hit, whatever you want to say, i so dont care, because no one can challenge my non aggressive me...........pacifist to the max, a lifetime................and advocate for every child i come face to face with. i spend all day, for a decade around children. and each i get down and look into eyes and welcome............

decide these people that spank,..................are monsters

and that vision of monster, is what i resent the hell out of. who the f* do you all think you are.

i can take you walking into my home for 24 hr 7 day experience. and trust you will see the love and grace in non perfection, but i guarentee that if i was welcome into your space in a 24 hour 7 days.........i would easily see your non perfection. and i would call it all. just as i am with brother and father hypocrisy of moral value and bush

my mom committed suicide and effected three families with children, young babies. and i watched my mom in the birthing rooms, being the first to hold. and then the love she gave them as they grew up.....this mom committed suicide over the guilts she gave herself about her core person. nah, i am really not impressed with campassion on this thread at all, as you yell about the lack of it for children. seems we choose to only give it to some. reminding anyone of the other side. i will give that compassion to both the child and the parent because i am able to. last nite talked to a teacher i have known for 6 years. she sends kids to same school as my boys, a private christian school. she called last nite to see why out of blue i pulled kids out of this school, with people we love, monday. i told her, i cannot exclude in love. we as a family cannot. we wont. and the school was asking and demanding we do it in the name of jesus, nope. i dont care if a person is an athiest i can see the lite. whether another can see their lite doesnt really matter, i have yet to meet one person i didnt get to experience their grace.

so yawl, judge on

[Riptide]

179. You can discipline your children as you see fit...

I am not advocating a law against spanking. I am simply saying that just because my parents did something, and I turned out alright, does not mean I would repeat it with my children (i.e. not wearing a seat belt or hitting)

I think you are being very defensive. Please, if you want to hit your children, it is your choice. I really respect your decision to do as you please. I am just saying that I find the "I turned out okay" excuse to be lame.

These are MY views for MY family. You are welcome to come into my home so that you can point out all my imperfections, as you suggested. You will not see perfection, but you also won't see a parent hitting someone half their size.

Peace.

[seabeyond]

180. you purposely

misrepresent to win your arguement. do you use this on your children. not teaching respect. what respect will your children have with such manipulation.

your whole post was a story you created about me to win. such silliness

[Riptide]

181. Apparently, you are so defensive that you can't have

a rational discussion.

[seabeyond]

182. so if i stand up for myself and my words i am defensive

dad and brother do that to shut me up. you did read how i dont hit my kids didnt you. it was in there wasnt it.

then why did you put "i hit my kids" in your post. simply to create an illusion so you could say your shit and dismiss me, and all that i said

so whatever. tis cool

do you use this tool with your children to dismiss what they say and then shift the blame to them so you dont have to participate and patiently allow yourself to understand what another thinks?

i mean, you might as well tell your kids it is ok to lie.

[realisticphish]

49. i was spanked

no problems for me. not that i would neccessarily spank MY kids, im just saying


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[quaker bill]

55. So was I

But I have never struck my kids in anyway and I know it is not necessary.

[realisticphish]

56. well

im 19, so its not much of an issue right now. and i was only spanked after something HUGE.


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[Steely_Dan]

63. Lazy Parents

I was beaten regularly as a child...along with mental abuse (My mother was and still is a full-blown manic depressive).

I never spanked my kids.

It is my humble opinion that those parents that spank their kids are basically lazy. They do not or can not communicate with their child and choose the quick "down and dirty" way of punishing.

I sort of equate it to the war (believe it or not). You see, we chose to spank Iraq (and the rest of the world) when we could have found other means of achieving our goal(s). We chose to be bullies - to punish with force and violence...when we could have taken the higher road and used diplomacy.

-Paige

[UdoKier]

71. Most of us would have supporteed "spanking" Iraq

If Iraq had actually been "misbehaving".

Problem was, they had more or less kept their nose clean for 12 years.

I don't think most of us here are strictly pacifists.

[RUDUing2]

78. I agree if you are talking about parents who only spank...

and use no other form of discipline, and who use no explanations, no talking, no reasoning with the child, but that is a generalization and like most incorrect and leads to incorrect assumptions.

Many parents use spanking as only one tool along w/many in effective parenting, (and in most cases it is the last resort, never the first or only)..and they dont spank in a vacumn, they also talk with their children and have a relationship w/their children.

And they don't beat the child. Do you really believe that a child who recieves 1 or 2 swats on the butt by a parent using only their hand, is being beaten like you were?

You were abused..don't equate all parents who spank w/the type of parents you had, or all spankings w/the beatings that you recieved.

[Steely_Dan]

79. I hear ya -

And I agree...I try not to generalize - I hope that we all do.

-P

[MsTryska]

72. I have no kids....

but i had the tar whupped out of me on several occassions when i was a child.


and i hold no ill will towards it.

if anything i see those friends of mine that were spanked and those that weren't and the ones that were tend to have much more sense.



even with kids i knwo today. you can always tell the ones that don't get spanked - they're the ill-behaved disrespectful ones.

[Poor Richard Lex]

73. The problem I have with spanking children

is that it teaches them that violence is acceptable. I have 2 kids and they aren't spanked.

There is a really good video called "1-2-3 Magic" that lays out a procedure or handling discipline for younger kids, basically counting to three and if they don't stop by then they go to time out. THis has worked really well on my daughter and she is a very 'spirited' child.

[seabeyond]

74. that 1 2 3 thing is just amazing

not threatening them with anything, yet everything. the simple with any child, 1.....................2.... and by then they are off and running doing what you want to do. when i first did that i sat in amazement, what, why does a number work

it is the fear of the unknown at three

now................fear...............of the unknown, still a threat

but i am surprised how effective it is

[seabeyond]

76. talk about creative, my aggresssive, angry, demanding child

anger doesnt work with him at all. at the youngest of age, when he was worked up,.........tickle time. all his energy he was building we would expel it in laughter. and closeness. bodies touching and intwined in laughter

bad punishment

in edit: to add, this could be a punishment way worse than any spankling if i chose to do it in ugly. we all know tickling beyond it being a fun thing to a mean thing. would rather have a swat

[muriel_volestrangler]

77. UK: School claims right to smack children as religious freedom

The teachers and some parents claim that the ban on corporal punishment infringes their human rights.

They say their schools were set up specifically to provide a Christian education based on Biblical observance and this meant the use of corporal punishment on a limited basis as part of their beliefs.

Both the High Court and the Court of Appeal has already thrown out their argument that the 1996 Education Act, which prohibits smacking, infringes their religious freedoms and right to an education of their choice.

During these earlier court challenges, lawyers representing the teachers and parents cited passages from the Bible

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3828976

So there you go. A few Christians think they've been told to hit their children by God. And would rather pay someone else to do the messy business of inflicting the pain.

[samtob]

80. Spanking vs. a swat

There is a big difference. Spanking is swatting, slapping, smacking repeatedly. A single swat is an attention getter, not a punishment.

A swat on a diapered behind makes noise, but does not transfer to actual pain, hence, an attention getting measure.

My mother was what I would describe as abusive, corporal punishment with a specially fabricated belt (made especially for spankings) was pretty standard. Now, if it was just one swing of the belt, eh, no biggie, but her intention was to relieve her anger, and instill fear. I thank her for her methods now (since I have had children) since she showed me the way NOT to raise my own children.

I have never spanked any of my kids, but each of them have received at least one swat on the behind while in diapers. Reading that last sentence seems harsh since only babies wear diapers, but all parents know after the age of one is when you can start communicating with your child (and they understand) also the time they start pushing boundaries and learning right and wrong.

I am sure everyone has seen a mother in a store, screaming at and slapping a child. Have you noticed how many times, in this situation, the child seems totally oblivious to being hit and screamed at? It appears they become immune to it due to the repetition.

I agree with the poster who stated lazy parents are more prone to lash out and physically punish their children through excessive spankings.

On edit, added the word excessive.

[buckettgirl]

81. I'm pro-spanking

Depending on the child, though. Some friends of mine used to spank their kids fairly regularly; sometimes the girls deserve it and other times my friends are just at their wits end.
These are the most well behaved children I have seen.

I have often babysat these girls (who are now 4 and 7). Destiny, the younger one, is a klutz...she is constantly falling down, stubbing her toes, or whatever... pain is nothing new for her. Spanking doesn't do it for her, no matter how bad she acted (and yes, she will do very bad things ON PURPOSE). The ultimate punishment for her is making her sit down and sit still right next to an adult (not really time out) if it was minor, she can face the tv or whatever activity is going on. If it was major, she sits for longer amount of time and has to face the wall. It about kills her because she is so active.
However, for Cheyenne, the older one, spanking has worked. She doesn't do anything bad on purpose because she doesn't want to be spanked. Making her sit down doesn't work because she likes to read and draw, etc (not so active). She rarely gets spanked anymore because she learned from it.

I think the punishment must fit the crime and child. If I had a child who repeatedly did something that they were told not to do and were scolded for it, I would have no problems spanking them.
Sometimes, children do deserve to be spanked. I can't go along with the "lets talk about it" thing, especially with little ones...they understand spanking, not talking. I think talking can work with older children. I don't want to necessarily be an authoritarian parent, but still, I would rather be that than permissive/passive.

I got spanked as a child, I deserved it - otherwise I would have received some other punishment. It wasn't abuse, and I certainly am not for starting wars. I got slapped by my mom when I was a teenager - I deserved and would do the same with my kids. I don't hate my parents, in fact, now that I am living my own life, we get along quite well. I can tell you that my dad did hit me twice when I was a teenager (for things that were equally his fault) and I hit him back because he was wrong. But I still needed to be put in my place be more respectful to my parents as well.
My husband, who was physically and sexually abused by his step-father, is for spanking as well. He was and is able to tell the difference between punishment for doing something wrong and abuse. He hates his step-father for the abuse. But he loves his mother because she taught him how to be respectful by keeping him in line when he needed it as well.

I can tell you that I sure can't stand it when I am in public and someone's kid is acting like a screaming brat (you know the kind I'm talking about) and the parents let it go or tell them in a non serious way to be quite or no or whatever, then end up giving in to their kid. Who knows what that kid does at home.
In fact, my sister-in-law's oldest child is a demon brat child from hell because the asshole (he is physically and verbally abusive to my sister-in-law) she married won't let her discipline her son at all. He gets his way all the time because he is "daddy's boy"; in fact he could get away with murder.

All I know is that my kids won't act that way, especially in public. They will be taught to be respectful and to behave otherwise they will be punished. And yes, I do realize that kids will be kids - they can be kids, I want them to be kids - that is also why I think punishment must be age/personality appropriate as well. However, I am also sure that there will be some things that only a spanking will suffice.

[Quill Pen]

83. "...the effect on the child is permanent."

You bet it's permanent. As a child, because I was spanked, I permanently learned the following:

1. To respect the comfort and enjoyment of other diners in restaurants, and to respect that waitstaff must be able to move freely and do their jobs, without me impeding them or leaving messes that make their jobs harder.

2. To stick close to and mind my parents in grocery stores, and understand that if I asked them to buy something, and they said "no," that was the end of it.

3. To treat household pets as living creatures deserving dignity and respect, not as toys or experiments.

4. That when it's time to get out of the swimming pool, leave the birthday party, pick up the toys, come in the house, or pack up and leave the play area at the park, it's time to move, now. Not time for me to dawdle, whine and bargain for another 20 minutes.

5. That hitting or hurting other kids, especially my younger sister, would not be tolerated for one moment.

I'm glad I was spanked; I knew immediately where the boundaries were, why they were there, and I knew that there were consequences for crossing them. Some of the Gen Y-ers out there, you can tell that their parents went in for this touchy-feely bargaining crap. It shows. Some of them are incapable of having a thought that doesn't center around their immediate needs. They do not seem to notice that they are surrounded by billions of other people. I feel sorry for them.

Childrearing isn't a hobby. You're not making a macrame plant hanger when you bring another child into the world; you're supposed to end up with a thoughtful, productive, hardworking and considerate adult determined to make the world a better place. All of society has to deal with the fallout from whatever effete, trendy psychobabble parents use when they are afraid that conflict with their children will ruin their relationships with them.

I figure I'm in for a deep golden flaming here, so have at it.

[buckettgirl]

84. Amen to that! Couldn't be said better! n/t

[MsTryska]

92. Here, here!

my sentiments exactly, but you said it way better than me.

[buddhamama]

94. I have been fortunate

My nine-yr-old has learned those "lessons" without the need of spankings.
I chose a different path with parenting it's called talking.
I respect him, he in turn respects me.

[Killarney]

103. Me too.

I learned those lessons as a child without being spanked and my son is now learning them without violence as well.

There are plenty of other options of discipline. It's not black and white--spanking is not the only option. It's not like if you don't spank your kid will be a terror and unable to sit still in a restaurant. If you don't discipline at all, yes. The kids you see that are uncontrollable spoiled brats are kids who are not being disciplined at all or who are, but inconsistently. But there are several forms of discipline that don't require spanking.

[buddhamama]

108. I have found

Giving kids a clear choice- benefits of good behavior or consequences of bad- works with kids as long as it is done consistently. Allowing them to feel they have some control over their lives,etc, goes a long way. They're not that different than adults in this regard.

[Killarney]

118. I couldn't agree more.

Consistency is the key.

[seabeyond]

109. it feels like it is black and white in your view, so let me ask

is a parent who spanks a bad parent. yes or no

[Killarney]

113. Not necesarily.

There are parents who spank who are bad parents. There are parents who don't spank who are bad parents. It's not the only determinant.

[seabeyond]

121. are there parents who spank that are good parents? n/t

[Killarney]

128. Definitely.

I just think they're making a poor choice to spank.

Whether or not someone is a good parent is an accumulation of much more than just that.

[seabeyond]

130. so in the scheme of things.............since it is an accumulation

of things that warrants a good parent, this whole to do over spanking only has a small place in the bigger picture, which i think is what so many people who do spank were saying in the first place. of course any one who has chosen to not spank doesnt think it is a good choice, why they dont do it.

just like i think leaving a newborn and beyond child in child care for ten hours of the day isnt a good choice. it isnt something i would chose to do

just like another person would think my husband teaching my son to shoot a pellet gun isnt a good choice,

ect....ect....

[seabeyond]

107. i think all anyone is saying, you made that choice to raise

son like this. yet still even though person after person who was spanked in youth as a punishment,.........say they respect those parents who spanked, valued the lesson in boundary, a spank and it was over, we werent hurt by them...........you still dont accept that

this is where i have the issue.

i dont spank my kids. i chose to raise them as you do, and i have lots of respect for son and vice versa, like you. he is 9 too. a good good kid. i have high expectation and demand from him to behave because he choses to, not out of fear of a spanking, but because it is better for him and thinking of everyone else, better for them too

but maybe, maybe.........the spanking doesnt do all the horror things that so many on this thread are saying it creates.

what is wrong with saying, it is your style to not spank, and a parent using it as a tool in a responsible manner is doing it there way. where is it my place to critize. the child loves their parents. they are good kids. they are nutured and loved, simply not going to judge

and those that abuse, get them help, educate or take the kids

this really doesnt have to be so hard

[buddhamama]

115. some are hurt some are not

I don't agree with spankings. I do not think it is a necessary tool in raising a kid. I think it also sends the wrong message: violence is an acceptable means to controlling behavior.

example. Your little Johnny hits Kenny. You spank Johnny while delivering the message that, "we don't hit people" "hitting is wrong"- Yeah, OK.

[seabeyond]

123. i dont spank, and i agree that is what the message is

and spanking didnt hurt me or make me a violent person or that is how to resolve isssue, nor my two brothers, nor all the many firends during my time that were spanked also

spanking did make me not do wrong cause i was a sensitive child and didnt like physical pain, so i didnt do wrong or made sure i hid my wrong really really well. but i can also say spanking as a child is totally irrelevant to me as an adult. and as a child i never felt less loved than any other child. i didnt feel abused

[Johonny]

97. Not from me

I agree. My parents weren't spanking machines but a few appropriate raps on my butt certainly taught me to obey and respect my parents.

[Mad_Dem_X]

166. Excellent post!

There's a big difference between getting a couple of swipes on the rear for disobeying and having the crap beat out of you. My mother spanked me when I mouthed off to her or disobeyed her, and I turned out just fine, in no way a violent person.

(edited for spelling)

[Riptide]

168. So, you learned that hitting other children...

especially those who were littler than you was wrong because a bigger person hit you? Hell, with that logic, you might as well teach your children that stealing is wrong by breaking into their piggy banks at night.

You teach respect through the disrespectful act of hitting?

All of these goals can be accomplished without hitting. I have done it with my own children.

[Chovexani]

190. No flames from me friend

You hit the nail on the head! People want to be their kids' best friend instead of being a parent, that's why there's so many bad ass kids out there today, who inevitably grow up to be insufferably self-centered and selfish adults.

[Swamp Rat]

90. Would Jesus spank a child?

[MsTryska]

93. Depends on which jesus we're talking about.

I'm really not sure what Mizrahic Jewish culture was like, and if spanking was par for the course or not.

[Killarney]

105. Dr. Dobson's Jesus would whoop-ass

Dr. Dobson wrote that spanking is "a painful disciplinary measure to make a vivid impression." When spanking doesn't work, he wrote, "The spanking may be too gentle. If it doesn't hurt it isn't worth avoiding next time." Dobson recommends "a firm thump on the head or a rap on the fingers."

[Swamp Rat]

106. The Jesus who talked about love and stuff...

Turn the other cheek, etc. In all the books I've read, Jesus Christ never hit a child.

[Killarney]

111. the line the religious right uses to defend their spanking is

"spare the rod, spoil the child"

But some Biblical scholars say that this line does not condone spanking. I read an article about how the rod is a metaphor.

[Swamp Rat]

119. But WHO said "spare the rod, spoil the child?"

I don't remember Jesus Christ saying that. The fundies I know - fine upstanding citizens, the pillars of the community - smack their children like they are playing rugby. These folks can quote chapter and verse EXCEPT for the parts where Jesus Christ is actually quoted. If they did, we'd hear cool stuff about love and forgiveness.

[Killarney]

120. here's a good link

it doesn't say who said it (I think you're right and it wasn't even Jesus in the first place).

But this goes into the meaning of the rod and how it might not mean what the fundies want it to mean (hit your kid):
http://www.epinions.com/kifm-review-5C0D-A4BF549-38ABA00F-prod6

[Swamp Rat]

Thanks

I challenge any Christian to show me exactly where Jesus Christ approves of spanking children. :)

[indigobusiness]

127. ATTRIBUTIONS

NUMBER: 2392
AUTHOR: Samuel Butler (1612–1680)
QUOTATION: Love is a boy by poets styl’d;
Then spare the rod and spoil the child. 1
ATTRIBUTION: Hudibras. Part ii. Canto i. Line 843.

http://www.bartleby.com/cgi-bin/texis/webinator/sitesearch?FILTER=col100&query=spare+the+rod&x=13&y=11

[seabeyond]

124. what an awesome picture swamp. i want that as a bumpersticker

wow

[Swamp Rat]

129. Download and print

A few DUers have been doing just that and have writting me with astounding results, concerning the "Who would Jesus bomb?" pic I made. Right wingers are left speechless. It was originally meant to make lurkers/freeps THINK for a change, but some DUers wanted it as a bumper sticker so I suggesting just print it on label paper. One DUer told me it got a reaction immediately in a parking lot when a repub was standing behind her car and staring at it. She tried to up a dialog since this man was leaning over behind her car and staring at it. The guy mumbled and shuffled away very quickly. This DUer was left with the impression that the repub (had Bush sticker on his car) would be thinking about my sticker for the rest of the day... man, have I been getting a lot of responses recently about this!

Here's another:

[seabeyond]

131. being in the panhandle of texas, lol lol

i may not get away with the first one, without being spanked, lol wink.

very very good swamp. i went back to first one, so powerful. will have hubby take a look to your instructions. i am just not computer whatever. i do like the jesus one tho, that may be very good in this area. thanks for the reply

interesting the reaction. may be what people need to come out of fog, and think

[Swamp Rat]

133. I've got a pic for those who REFUSE to come outta their funky fog

[indigobusiness]

112. Jesus spanked the moneychangers...

and quite a few others.

[Swamp Rat]

116. I thought this thread was about spanking children?

I'm gonna stay on topic for the moment. ;)

[okieinpain]

114. I bet your kids are bad as hell.

[Slowhand16]

132. Any person who would hit or spank a child is a dumbass and a monster...

[Artemis Bunyon]

134. Some of you guys are like reverse freepers.

And it's starting to get on my nerves.

[CalebHayes]

138. Before you go off talking about reverse freepers getting on your nerves...

Remember you only have 300 posts. Your lacking room to speak.

[Artemis Bunyon]

162. You're kidding, right?

Please tell me you're kidding. Otherwise, you'll do nicely as "exhibit A".

[okieinpain]

136. that be me a dumb ass and a monster, but I bet my kids are

better behaved then your's.

[Slowhand16]

152. Kids learn values from observing their parents...

Scaring children is not an effective way of parenting...

Thats just my humble opinion..

[DrGonzoLives]

156. Thank you for calling my dead father a dumbass and a monster

Now go fuck yourself.

[Slowhand16]

188. Please show me how that it is done

and I will gladly give that a try. I suppose you know how?

[Guarionex]

140. Pure new age crap

Listen...I come from a Puerto Rican family in which my father hit me with sandals and belts...when I misbehaved...rest of the time..very loving and devoted to me and my brother.

I'm now grown up...do I beat up people? No. Do I exhibit emotional problems with people? no. Do I know right from wrong? Yes. (although I do play a lot of violent video games....something MUST be wrong with me)

I agree...it depends on how you do it...how hard...and the message underlying the spanking. Try that "go to a corner" new age crap when a child starts testing the boundaries and refuses to follow orders....go ahead...try it. When they do...that's the time to give them a fresh one. No Jerry Springer, "I can't control my kids" trips for me...my kids will KNOW the law.

I, for one, will be spanking my children if they misbehave.

Did I say I was a very loving, caring guy?

[undergroundpanther]

142. I don't

Beat my partner when he pisses me off, I don't beat my friends,when they say rude stuff or upset others,I don't beat kids on the street when they play too rambunctiously,I don't beat my cats to dominate them if they knock a knickknack of my shelf on the way to the window.....
Why should I beat my own kid when they do the kinds of things adults,other kids or even I do?

I don't want to be given a a "swat" for being clumsy,being too loud or pissing off my partner because he didn't like what I said. So I don't give swats because no matter what you call it is is abuse.Abuse is intended to dominate the other and subject them under you,and dehumanize them into submission through fear ,fear of being hurt by you.I refuse to diminish others and myself by hitting to get my way .


The "parents" who are so upset and think they are being judged by no spank folks are in fact reacting and defensive because they are guilty.They don't want to even imagine they hit to dominate their own kids using physical violence to control them since they have already lost their child's respect,and failed to resolve conflicts like a real leader who can control himself and shows insight into himself enough to not act out his own traumas on others.,The hitters of this world resort to control through fear to get obedience by force.

This is what all control freaks ,authoritarians, bullies and tyrants do. Sorry pro spanker's it's the same behavior and it creates the same result submission through fear of being abused and sometimes trauma...I don't care how pro spank bullies defend their shameful acts of hitting or if they use euphemisms or change the words around,to make it look better,it is WRONG to HIT other people,to make them obey and it's doubly wrong to hit kids who can't defend themselves against a bigger abuser and animals that depend on you for food,love and attention..because you want them to obey or else.

Evil is NEVER good.
Abuse is evil
Violence for sake of securing power over a smaller or compromised person to control them is evil.
It is evil most of all when abuse is perpetuated against a smaller weaker person who cannot fight back,who has no place to go to say NO to being hit.
If you think wife beating is evil,than you should see the evil in beating your own children. Would you swat your wife if she pissed you off? Yes or No? Would you say it is OK to hit your wife to
To teach her a lesson about respecting you? No? Yes? than why hit your kids? The fact you cannot see the DIRECT implication of hitting is the same in both instances shows pro spanker's have a moral/emotional deficiency.
I DO judge bullies and I Call abuse hitting domination evil. Abuse has no place in a fair,just,respectful culture.
Any culture that sanctions hitting of it's members is not healthy it is a coercion based culture.A coercion based family is were parents dominate and hit each other or the kids to teach lessons about subjugation. This is SICK.
And yes I do judge. And I am not ashamed to call abuse abuse even when bullying people convince themselves they are not being bullies when they hit others..Calling abuse what it is without pretending it is something it is not is the first step to stopping it and healing from it.If you pro spank people feel judged by my words than GOOD!!!Feel that guilt fully and ask yourself WHY you are so defensive and ashamed reading this? I judge when people go calling hitting by other words as if it changes it from what it is_striking another person to make them hurt so they will do as you want.Domination.

Pro spanker's get some courage,and quit rationalizing abuse. Look at yourselves and look at what you are doing with some self honesty.Please grow past your past and stop visiting your own hurts upon your children.Please,stop calling evil deeds, good. Because Abuse,hitting is NOT good for anyone who feels the strike.
Do you like being hit when someone is frustrated at you? what if your boss whapped you when you fucked up at work? No? than don't hit other people,because if you dominate them you will find yourself the recipient of resentment and anger by the person you abused,if they remember it and feel the injustice they will possibly choose to be honest about what you did to them and call it assault,abuse or bullying.A" swat" or "discipline" is still a deliberate use of violence against another person (if the person is smaller or unable to fight back it IS bullying) to create fear to cause obedience because respect is already gone.

If what I say here makes you mad, GOOD, Instead of rationalizing it to me or rounding up a posse of pro spanker's to flame me or offer more rationalizations,sit down and direct that anger where it really belongs,use the hurt inside your own heart that was created by spankings and humiliations and terror your parents did to you to make you obey and fear them. Than feel it,and make the anger go positive for once, CHOOSE to stop the abuse cycle by saying no more hitting.And controlling yourself instead of dominating your kids.. Your kids if they are not feeling betrayed or scared or resentful of you,may begin to trust again,and in time you might earn back their respect.

[MsTryska]

192. I've spanked each of my cats.

when they were kittens -

once when my older one got way too rambunctious in his morning "kick mommy's ass" routine" and decided to go at me with claws and teeth.

once when he jumped up on the counters



the younger one is always getting into things, but it was horrible when he was younger. Whenever he'd go someplace he wasn't supposed to be, or do soemthign eh wasn't supposed to do, he'd get spanked.


Now all i have to do is call their names when they're doign soemthign there's not supposed to. and they stop.

[Chovexani]

191. Welcome to DU

I agree 100%.

But be careful about admitting you play violent video games around here, it's enough to get you tarred and feathered by some people. :P

[American Tragedy]

147. I was never spanked. Both of my parents were morally opposed to it.

They're extremely liberal and anti-authoritarian, though, probably more so than most.

They always told me that when parents spank their children, they demonstrate that violence is a legitimate means of interaction and asserting power. Striking someone on the buttocks can be especially humiliating and invasive.

I tend to agree, if only because I turned out all right and virtually never got into trouble. I really don't see why posters here find it so hard to believe that there are parents who don't spank their children and yet manage to produce non-delinquents.

[MrUnderhill]

151. Anyone who thinks spanking relieves the PARENT's tension/anger...

...has probably never had any children.

I never understood the "this hurts me more than it does you" until I had children.

Funny story:

My just-turned-four-year-old had to have his hand smacked for being disrespectful to his mother and yelled at me "Daddy... I don't LIKE it when you smack me!" and I explained to him that I don't like it either... that it hurts me too...

He stared at me for several seconds and broke out laughing... "Daaaddy... I think we are being SILLY".

I guess you had to be there...

[RPM]

155. well.....

I agree with the statements up there, but...

The trick seems to be reconciling the child's developmental stage with preventing future bad action.

The smack says - don't do that it causes pain (even if the kid is lucky enough for the activity not to cause real, uncontrolled pain - e.g. touching a hot stove burner)

The trick then, is to backfill the association of action as negative with the a rationalized basis of why pain should be associated with the activity.

At that point the child loses the association of pain with the the activity and associates pain with the poor logic of the activity (e.g., again, touching the burner)...

[sonicx]

159. i was spanked and i'm not thankful for it...

i won't spank my kids if i ever have them.

[Dogmudgeon]

161. Love Me, Love My Butt

First, after reading through this thread, it's like 99% of the other child-spanking threads out there: anti-spankers acting outraged and then moralizing without guilt, and pro-spankers taking offense and getting aggressively defensive.

There's no reason to have to justify either position. Nearly all the pro-spankers agree with the anti-spankers about the basics of child-raising, including the need to avoid harsh punishment. Only a few of the pro-spankers think painful whippings are OK; the word "spanking" to most pro-spankers means a quick blow to the rear end.

I personally think even that quick blow should be avoided, but I also don't feel qualified to harangue pro-spankers who aren't beating the hell out of their kids.

A lot of more important issues about spanking are usually avoided in these threads. The first is the context of child-raising. Many people, pro- and anti-spankers alike, have a subtle disrespect for children. This attitude does a lot of damage, whether it's communicated with a strap across naked skin, or the thousand small humiliations of day-to-day life.

It's important to respect your children; it's really the only thing that will teach them, effectively, how to respect others. A lot of parents use the phrase "teach them Right from Wrong," but fail to do so by example. The parent(s) is/are the main role model for the child. If you don't respect your kids, arguments about spanking are moot.

The other big topic that's usually avoided is about the sexual context of spanking. We even have a spank emoticon here -- :spank: And the topic of pedophilia will quickly and easily attract over a hundred posts, most of which will be little more than expressions of animal rage. But it's puzzling that more people don't understand how spanking has the potential to sexualize a child.

This isn't to say that spanking is a form of pedophilia (some is, but most -- the vast majority -- is not). The sexualization of physical punishment is idiosyncratic, and demands that a spanker parent be especially perceptive to their children's developing sexuality. Most children will engage in a little "spanking play" with their playmates, but the kids who absolutely love it are the ones who may develop problems with it later in life.

It is not easy to be a parent, and no one who reads this should consider it to be my attempt to convey some quick, easy (and wrong) advice. It's not. It's a call for all of us to re-evaluate the way we treat children in general without indulging our passion for verbal jousting.

The lives of our children are far too important for us to get bogged down in personal agendas over spanking.

--p!

[YellowRubberDuckie]

169. There is a usefulness for spanking...

...and I'm not talking about beating a child. I mean a light to moderate swat that gets their attention and makes sure the understand what they are doing is wrong and that they need to stop it. But that ends once that child has the ability to understand the feelings of others. I say around 4 or 5 a child is too old for spankings. Then you can talk to them and explain to them what they did was wrong. And disappointment is so much better than yelling and screaming and spankings. This subject has been run into the ground and broken off.
Duckie

[seabeyond]

173. isnt this so tricky to decide all these things

because personally in my experience, i dont believe there is any disciplining up to two.

for my two children was totally a time of getting to know who each other. in love and ease and understanding.

they didnt need to discipline at that age. we lived in ease and love. peace. they didnt have a mind per se except in wanting love. give em that, and what else is needed.

for real

when the child began exploring the outside world in figuring and putting together his interaction with others, the ability to have that concrete concept, that is when we had to start with the how we walk life. in choice. and repercussion. result of action

before that, if they were unhappy, food, sleep or huggins or laughing was all it took.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

175. I'm sure you couldn't take your little ones anywhere...

...and I'm sure when they went anywhere if people didn't put things up so they couldn't get them you were insulted? (i'm generalizing a little here, yes, but I remember when my cousins' kids were little. They got into everything, and when my grandmother wouldn't put her stuff up, they were insulted. She was insulted they didn't teach them not to mess with her pictures and things. And when my mom would smack their little hands, they learned not to do that, but their parents were pissed. My mom was like, "Well, then don't bring them over here. I did the same to you when you were little, and if you don't like it leave." And guess what? They didnt. ) Because if you aren't teaching your young children not to get into things when they start crawling, they are into EVERYTHING! A light tap on the hand isn't going to hurt a crawler. It just teaches them not to get into things.
Duckie

[seabeyond]

176. ya well or you can just understand

they are doing all this stuff in exploration and hang with the baby. we went all over the place. and as he crawled around i did too, all the while visiting with grandmas and friends, and let the child explore, and when it was something the baby shouldnt have, because of danger or special or possibly breaking i gently and in love took and redirected attention. since i knew my babies so well, i knew where to take them without issue. they are not innate brats. they are pliable little things, and being a creative and aware parents, we did it in love, be it grandparent or friend

and no, i am not disrespectful to anyone.

and no, i dont demand of them. i allow friend to make choice and then i work with it. i am that good

does that help any

i am also saying i am not going to judge your grandma. though i would suppose there was more going on in that enviroment that wasnt beng addressed. and sad the parents werent able to take care of the babies as i suggested, where there wouldnt even be an issue

we have had christmas trees, decorations every holiday, nice things, and breakable things, we watch our kids. we were around our baby. we took care of them

what a concept

[YellowRubberDuckie]

177. She had shelves with pictures on them...

and a double layered coffee table with some knick knacks on it. Just stuff she didn't want broken. When kids come over it was not her place to put stuff up. It was their place to teach their kids not to mess with her stuff.
Duckie

[Riptide]

184. If that's what's important to her...

My kids are way past the stage of touching/breaking things. However, when my friends come over who have small children, I simply put the breakable stuff up for a while. It allows the parents to have a more pleasant and relaxing visit. I want people to feel comfortable and welcome in my home. I guess to some people it is a big deal to have to move a few knick knacks. That's certainly her right in her own home.

However, even the parents I know who spank their children, do not approve of anyone else doing it to their child. I'm glad it worked out for her, but smacking someone else's child could really have backfired on her.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

185. It is the way things are in my family.

And it pisses me off that you would judge my dead grandmother like that. Her things weren't more important to her than her grandchildren. All I'm saying is it is the parent's responsibility to teach their young children to leave shit alone. And this is the last thing I will say in regard to this issue.
Duckie

[JVS]

187. A Taser is much more effective

[Chovexani]

189. As my grandmama always said

Better to be spanked at home than to be knocked the hell out in the street.

This is why kids are so damn bad today. I was spanked as a child and didn't grow up to be "scarred" or any such nonsense. I grew up knowing that certain behavior was ok and certain behavior was not ok.

Spanking is not about "bullying" a child it's about correcting a child. When I was a kid and I was bad my mom told me firmly to stop it. If I didn't I got smacked. You can bet I stopped then.

I think I am a better person today because of it.