Think the 'camps' are being set up yet for gays?

[Behind the Aegis]

After the election, I was appalled and VERY disappointed at the reactions some DU people had toward gays. Then, yesterday, I read two DU threads that made my blood boil, my eyes fill with tears, and sent a shiver up my spine. Today, I read more "good" news for the gay community. I sit here and wonder, when will they start the trains? When will the re-education camps be established? Think I am making something out of nothing? Look at what is here at the DU...can you imagine what we are NOT hearing?

Mich. Governor Pulls Same-Sex Benefits From State Worker Contracts

Methodist jury convicts lesbian minister

Alabama Considers Gay Gag Law

After Punishing Student for Explaining Lesbianism, Terry Bethea Sues ...

Is a "round-up" in the works? What do we do? Where does this stop?

[Liberal Veteran]

1. I already have an escape plan ready....

...and hopefully if it comes to that, Canada will accept my petition for political asylum.

[Behind the Aegis]

4. We don't as of yet

My partner and I do not have one. We talked about leaving after the election, but that "wore off." Now, I am starting to have a real sense of fear. The saddest thing is my family is willfully ignorant and think I am being "silly." I wonder how they will feel if I am shipped off? They didn't want me leaving the country because I would be too far. If I am in a camp or dead, I think that would be harder for them to contact me then if I was in England!

[Occulus]

51. Grab a gun and LEARN about it.

That Second is in there for a reason. USE it.

One question I had, upon first learning of the Holocaust, was "why didn't they use their guns to stop it?"

As a child, I was told guns are no answer. As an adult, I know that guns may be the only answer.

Know what? That conclusion terrifies the piss out of me. And I almost mean that literally.

Almost.

edit: I don't need to tell you that, do I. Well, I feel like a silly jerk. Imagine that.

[48pan]

87. Guns

The 2nd amendment doesn't have anything to do with hunting. It has to do with revolution and protecting onesself from the government. It appears to be time for progressives to start arming themselves. Godess knows the right wing is armed.

[knight_of_the_star]

105. Unfortunately

That is sounding more and more sane the more I hear about what is going on in this country.

For the record, a lot of archaic weapons like swords and bows do serious damage to modern personal armour. I'd like to see a kevlar vest that can stop and arrow fired from a longbow dipped in hemlock or nightshade.

[Jose Diablo]

116. A cross-bow is far more deadly and accurate

silent too.

[China_cat]

65. There are many who will stand beside you.

And I will repeat...I would rather my grandchildren be gay than republican.

[posehound]

72. Come on, now!

What the heck is wrong with you, Behind? Nobody's going to the
camps. Can you imagine the scope of the operation to try to
round people up? From Portland, ME to Portland, OR and
everywhere in between? It's mind boggling.

And who is going to be the one who runs around deciding that
someone is gay? Are in-the-closet guys with a wife and kids
going to be left alone? Are they going to throw a big fish net
over the crowd exiting gay clubs at bar time? Or are they just
going to pick snappy dressed men out of the line at the
supermarket? Come on. How the heck are you gonna tell who's
gay and who's not? Ain't gonna happen.

[GarySeven]

77. So, you want to know how this would work?

Easy. If you criticize the president, you're Gay. If you're Gay, you have to go to the camps. See US Constitution, 316th Amendment (B).

Look - all that has to happen is someone SAYS you're Gay. They won't REQUIRE proof. Someone who has a problem with you at work can just say you're Gay; an ex-lover (female or otherwise) can "denounce" you if they're pissed. It's just like the Red Scare days; the accusation alone is enough to destroy your career or justify any action taken against you by the government. If they decree Gays and Lesbians are part of an anti-American organization -- and that's what's next --- they can do ANYTHING under the Patriot Act and you will literally disappear. For-ev-er.

[newyawker99]

81. Hi posehound!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Behind the Aegis]

84. No...you go on!

It is possible! It was done in this country only 40 years ago! Would they be able to gather ALL gays? Probably not. Could it be done? You bet! Neighbor turning in neighbor, others naming their former partners after torture or promises of a "lesser" sentence. It can be done, even in a country this size!

First, you dehumanize the victim, then you strip their rights, then you can do just about anything you want! There are people in Camp Xray who have been there for THREE years with no legal representation because someone else named them as a possible terrorist! So, it can happen here, because it has!

[MacCovern]

96. Won't be happening anytime soon, let's face it

There is not going to be any roundup of homosexuals in the United States of America. Although the general population is against gay marriage it does not mean the populace wants to wipe gays off the face of the earth.
If there was even a hint that anything like that would happen Americans would rise up in outrage.

The USA is a different country today than it was 60 years ago when Japanese would taken to concentration camps. You cannot make a fair comparison.

You are safe and secure in knowing that there will never be gay interment camps in the USA.

[Behind the Aegis]

98. That is one opinion

I don't think it will be a "roundup," per se. But, the first step is already under way, and that is removing the rights of gays. People think this is all about the "marriage" thing and it is not!

I hope that Americans would stand against any discrimination, but I am not holding my breath! As for the Japanese internment camps, I think that is a fair comparison because it is a historical reference to our own country 'collecting' its own citizens. So, I don't think I am safe and secure in "knowing" anything in this new country, because it is becoming a shadow of what it was! Unless there is a change in the administration, things are about to get a whole lot worse!

[Kingshakabobo]

99. How the hell can you say never?

How's this for a quick scenario?

1. A nuke goes of in D.C., Chicago or New York. Take your pick. A hundred thousand casualties make 9/11 look like a day at the beach. The economy, along with the city affected, is a smoldering pile of ruble. Can anyone say that this will NEVER happen? Bush has done such a great job protecting our borders.

2. Martial law is implemented. The bill of rights is tossed out the window. Was it Tommy Franks that said "god help our constitution if we have a nuclear incident".

3. The country is filled with hate, fear and a need for revenge. Who do they turn to? You guessed it. The same people that have a knack at stirring up feelings of hate, fear and the need for revenge. No anybody like that? Hmmm.

4. Hello right wing Christian fundamentalists and a tightening of their control of our government. Hello Jerry Falwell and Ralph Reed to name a few. Maybe will get Bush and his gang to stay on to help out.

We'll have to round up the un-Americans in the country. Hmm, I wonder who they are? Let's name a few.

1. Muslims for sure. We'll need a larger Guantanamo.

2. Jews? Maybe yes, maybe no. We need them for the rapture

3. Gays, abortionists and the ACLU. After all, they are why god is punishing us AND they hate America. See: Jerry "jabba the hut" Falwell. They caused the moral decay of our society and allowed this to happen.

4. Media elite who speak out against the government. This will be a small bus because the media will be pissing all over itself to see who can be more patriotic and "supportive" of the troops. American Flag-lapel pins will be at a premium.

5. Intellectuals will have to go. See: elite.

Whaddya think?

[jmowreader]

100. We're not talking about the general population

Consider:

-- LEFT --

Extreme leftists - ALF, Earth First!

Serious leftists - PETA, Greenpeace

Moderate leftists - DUers

Slight leftists - Liberal Christians

Centrists - Most of America

Slight rightists - Catholics

Moderate rightists - Liberal Baptists

Serious rightists - Pentecostals and other fundamentalist Christian sects

Extreme rightists - Anyone in the Bush administration and guys like Robertson, Falwell, Jack Chick...

Farther to the right than that - Freepers and Fred Phelps

-- RIGHT --

Note that the Bush administration is several notches to the right of the general population. They hate gays and would cart them off to gas chambers in a second if they thought they could get away with it.

Know something else? They can. They got away with everything they've pulled so far; no one's going to cry over the disappearance of a few Evil Butt Bumping Christ Hating Faggits, now are they? Why, you'll be better off--dem EBBCHF won't be sprinkling that AIDS over your food or turning your children into faggits, now will they?

[Jose Diablo]

117. Unfortunately it won't be gas chambers

it will be thermal depolymerization plants (TDP). The technology has advanced far beyond Germany WWII.

You see, gas chambers are not efficient, they cost energy (money) to operate and the disposal of the end product is difficult. Now TDP both disposes and creates usable fuel in the form of oil. It is like a high pressure cooker that gets its fuel (low grade methane) from the bio waste being processed. There is nothing that remains after the process except oil, pure water and minerals (about 7% by weight). The minerals make a fine fertilizer. About 200 tons of bio waste produces about 660 barrels of a fine clean oil ready for the distillation towers to be processed into gasoline.

There will be nothing left for the future people to know what happened.

Are you now ready to fight?

[truth2power]

112. Bwahahahahaha!!! That was a joke, right??

"If there was even a hint that anything like that would happen Americans would rise up in outrage."

Sure...murkans who haven't risen up in outrage over the atrocities already committed by that Ignorant Ass these past four years are going to care if gays are loaded onto trains to the camps.

It is to laugh!!! :eyes:

[RagingInMiami]

45. Have you guys read this column that came out in the LA Times two years ago

Just cause Ashcroft is gone doesn't mean these camps won't be implemented.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/08.15B.ashcr.camps.htm

[neebob]

69. That's news to me

and now I'm wondering why anyone thinks only gays would be shipped off. Ashcroft announced a plan - a documented plan, perhaps? - for camps, and not only did he keep his job for two more years, but it never made the TV news ... or if it did, I certainly don't remember it. The fact that he kept his job means he wasn't the only one who thinks it's a good idea.

It wasn't just Ashcroft, drunk with power, floating a crazy idea. The plan still exists, and the planners have four more years in which to roll it out. Holy crap.

[readmoreoften]

2. all I can do is hope we'll be safe for awhile

Honestly, I wake up with panic attacks in the middle of the night now.

[Newsjock]

3. I pray for ...

... the first lawyer who successfully gets political asylum in another country for a gay client. The floodgates will open, and I for one will not be the least bit ashamed to take my money, my knowledge, my heritage out of this country that no longer accepts my right to exist in full equality with my fellow citizens.

[killbotfactory]

5. The gay final solution is condoned by God

In the Bible, homosexuals are condemned to death. And our country is founded on the Bible, right?



Oh sorry, I'm sure some rightwingers will take this as intellectual hostility towards religion. :eyes:

[BOSSHOG]

8. The Bible also condemns to death those who work on Sunday

Seen any wack job right wing christians stoning those who work on Sunday? If not, ask them why not. Is it because they are hypocrites or because some of them work on Sunday and its okay if they do it.

[killbotfactory]

9. "Sabbath? You mean the heavy metal band?"

If only hardcore bible thumpers would actually read the goddamned bible.

[Deja Q]

104. Even though the Bible also says 'thalt shalt not kill'?

The Bible doesn't always seem to make sense.

[Buddyblazon]

6. I will stand beside you....

I am a straight male.

But if it comes to the point of rounding gays and lesbians up...know that I will fight for and with you. And I am not alone.

[Stinky The Clown]

18. And *I* will stand beside *you* and everyone else

I'm another straight male, fully and completely appalled by this.

[gypsy11]

21. And I'll be there too

I'm a straight female, and I am also appalled by what is happening.
Who has any right to tell someone how and who to love?

[liberalhistorian]

36. Ditto for this

straight female Christian who will proudly stand by any and all people who are oppressed, harassed, persecuted, etc.

[Dem2theMax]

62. Double ditto.

Another straight female Christian here. I'll be standing on line with the rest of you. Supporting anyone who needs it. :)

[Old and In the Way]

22. Same with this hetero

If they declare war on gays, they declare war on me, too.

[nickinSTL]

7. I wouldn't be surprised...

But if they start that, I'll be out there protesting, and they can damn well take me to the camps, too, for all I care.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

"In Germany they came first for the Communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, but I did not speak up because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the trade-unionists, but I did not speak up because I was not a trade-unionist. Then then they came for the Catholics, but I did not speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me and by that time there was no one left to speak up." - Rev. Martin Niemoller

[Behind the Aegis]

10. Quotes

I love the Burke quote. I have used it before. I have also used the Niemoller quote as well. However, when I did some research, I discovered the good pastor is a homophobe! I was floored! How could someone who lived through those atrocities, even think to condemn and entire group of law-abiding citizens?

I am glad to know there are some allies out there willing to fight with us. Now, we need to get other gays to stop worrying about who they will fuck next or what so-and-so is wearing and realize their rights are evaporating! Allies won't be able to help much, if we can't get our own damn community to step up for itself!

[readmoreoften]

15. the dykes and transmen see the writing on the wall

Being born female and GLBT, we are not all that interested in what people are wearing. Many of us are interested in who to fuck next, but we'd be happy to meet our new significant other at a political protest :)

[Rumba]

56. Not to be fippant about this, I think it's deadly serious

But I must say, I liked the way the last series of posts resonated with the forming of the fellowship of the ring.

Count me in.

[nickinSTL]

68. To quote...

Viggo Mortensen as Aragorn:

"If by my life or death, I can protect you, I will...You have my sword."

[fertilizeonarbusto]

11. Won't go meekly-or at all.

Like most gays killed in the Holocaust by the Nazis I won't make it to the camps. I'll make them shoot me on the street in front of God and everyone-and I'll endeavor to take a couple of them with me too.

[Behind the Aegis]

12. I am like you!

They won't take me without a fight! However, I think we need to do everything we can do to stop it before it gets to that point! People need to wake the hell up! The writing is on the historic wall!

[Midlodemocrat]

13. I will also stand by you.

I am a straight, married mom of three, but if they come for you and others, I will fight for you. I have a very big mouth.

[readmoreoften]

14. I just don't see how they can get away with it or what use it would

be politically for neo-cons to put us into camps. I know that the dominionists want to reinstate the death penalty for the 'crime' of homosexuality. So, at that point there would be death camps... but we'd be hangin' out along side the unwed mothers, heathens, fornicators, and worshippers of idols... anotherwords 95% of America.

I just think we're going to be scapegoated repeatedly. We'll lose our jobs, our financial security, and in some cases it's possible that we'll lose access to our children. I think we'll be visible targets for redneck gangs who will take their rage out on us with impunity. I think we'll be used as a wedge against other progressives, so that hetero progs have to spend so much time defending us that they'll be more likely to miss the neo-cons more financially rewarding dastardly deeds.

Sodomy will be recriminalized and actively prosecuted in many states. The invasion of privacy will be used to disrupt activists and confiscate their belongings. I suspect that there will be 'harsher penalties' for gays over the age of 21 to be sexually active with people under 21. So we'll see 25 year olds given jail sentences for dating 19 year olds. If a 25 year old man dates a 17 year old it will be seen as 'untoward', but if a 25 year old man dates a 17 year old they will be executed.

I think gay teachers will be investigated. Gay college professors will be harassed. Red state schools will begin to censor academia HARDCORE. More gay/lesbian/trans history will be erased, publishers may be boyotted or penalized.

I think the the RW needs us to be around to divert the attention of the plebes. This is my best hope against camps.

Of course, unless the christian dominionists ACTUALLY overturn the constitution. Then we're toast. But I think there will have to be years of incrementalism in place first.

But, these are just my assumptions of how it would go down if it went down.

[samtob]

16. I'm sorry, I don't get this

How would anyone think the rounding up of gays and lesbians is going to happen? Because of the gay marriage ban amendments passing?

Obviously some believe it is going to happen, by why? Where, beside web blogs has this even been hinted at?

My sister is a lesbian, voted for * even (long story, unbelievable I know) when I mentioned this concept to her (she refuses to come here and read) she laughed, hard. I have to say, while I don't laugh at it, I am puzzled.

Oh, I may have a fairly low post count, don't try to fling the freeper label on me, I just do not get in here for very long during the day (business, kids, volunteer work etc) This is an honest question.

[Walt Starr]

17. Homosexuals are to 2004 United States

what Jews were to 1928 Germany.

[HereSince1628]

25. maybe but maybe not

There were a fair number of Nazi's with Jewish ancestors which they diligently attempted to hide...

But, human nature as we know it suggests that something in excess of 13% and possibly as large as 30% of the population is or has been engaged in homosexual relationships at some time in their life.

I am not sure that the number of Nazi's that were Jewish EVER reached such proportions.

The thing about homosexuality is that you can try to hide it (if you are careful), and you can repress its expression (if you are disciplined) and if you are moderately successful in the previous 2 instances you can be led to absolute self-denial and into the possibility of mental illness.

Why is it so hard for conservatives to accept that people, in their private lives, can turn to same sex relationships that they find gratifying? What exactly is so threatening about that? Is someone afraid of being outed??????????

I really haven't seen billboards advertising same-sex dating services or websites with clues to "How to be perverted."

Homosexuals and gays could well be a target for the repressive behaviors of a conservative federal administration, but it seems likely that a significant proportion of the enforcers would also be practitioners of the prohibited life-styles.

[Walt Starr]

37. Yes, but remember, 1928 Germany was pre-Hitler

The Weimar Republic still had Hindenburg as the President and Muller was chancellor.

Historically, the Jews were just beginning to become scapegoated. It was the time period when the removal of rights from the Jews was beginning to be legitimized in the rhetoric.

Hitler was still five years away. The beginning of genocide was seven years away as the Nuremburg laws were passed in 1935.

[bhikkhu]

39. History worth mentioning...

The jews were scapegoated for 1900 years or so before the Nazis got started. The Romans burned Jerusalem and killed every Jew they could find in 66 AD or so. Secular authorities (usually with church blessings) subsequently rounded them up and killed, robbed, or force-converted them on a fairly regular basis until the nineteenth century. "Constantine's Sword" by James Carroll is a good account of this.

What changed then was a strong liberal current in European society, the recognition of inherent human rights and dignity. It was at a high point in this current that the Nazis arrived. As far as gay rights, the high point may have been reached here, and the corner turned.

[Walt Starr]

63. Interesting, because homosexuality has a similar history

In fact, the purgorative "fags" comes from the inquisition. When the death throes of the "witch" on the fire had completed, in order to keep the interest of the crowd up, the executioners would grab known homosexuals and throw them on the fire to be burned alive.

This secondary entertainment was considered the equivalent of throwing another "fag" on the fire. A fag being a bundle of sticks.

[Carson]

75. Actually, Walt, that etymology has been debunked several times.

Here are just a few examples. Google for more if you're curious.

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mfaggot.html

http://www.takeourword.com/Issue033.html

[readmoreoften]

103. readmoreoften

There are a few breaks in that argumentation. (For instance, there is an argument for the history of the word 'faeries' in relation to "Daughters of Rebecca" an pro-labor cross-dressing cavalry who destroyed their employers property in protest under the cover of night and fled back up to the mountains. When the mountain people were asked about the destruction the next day, they replied "oh the faeries must have done it" (faeries being dangerous and destructive and nothing like tinkerbell three hundred years ago)

The evidence they cite at these links is not terribly strong. In my mind not strong enough to be considered 'debunking'. Maybe enough to 'call into question'. There are all sort of words whose questionable etymologies are debunked by other questionable etymologies. Be careful of 'debunking' done on the internet by 'experts'.

Meanwhile, there are inquisition period wood carvings and paintings of effeminate men being bound as faggots and burned to death. I think that's probably the important part anyway.

[readmoreoften]

108. SORRY, I didn't mean to put my username in the Subject Header

it was cached in and I clicked on it. OOPS! I'm not suggesting that you "readmoreoften" (actually, my name is a reminder to myself)

[w4rma]

73. No, Homosexuals are to 2004 United States what Homosexuals were to

1928 Germany. Homosexuals were sent to the ovens in Nazi Germany for being homosexual. Muslims are today's Jews.

[Behind the Aegis]

19. I will field your question

Will camps be set up tomorrow? No! Will they attempt to round-up us anytime soon? Nope. BUT, they are laying the ground work! They are stripping gays of rights and liberties. They are doing it slowly...for now! It is not just the "marriage" thing. The article about the Michigan governor revoking benefits is just the start. Hundreds, perhaps thousands, will lose health coverage, among other things. If the Shrub appoints another conservative, we stand the chance that Lawrence v. Texas will be overturned and gays will be allowed to be prosecuted for CONSENSUAL, private sex. This is how it works. Strip the group of its humanity, strip them of their rights, then, you can do as you please. Does this help?

[Walt Starr]

28. Look at how long it took the Nazis to strip the Jews of rights

before they were rounded up.

[Behind the Aegis]

29. That's my point

We will be 're-educated' once our rights have been stripped completely. I can see neo-cons making the jump to disallowing gays to vote because they are involved with "criminal" sexual behavior. Hell, there are people who are calling for the damn death penalty for gays! If people cannot see what is happening, they are willfully ignorant, bigots, uneducated, or just don't give a damn!

[mr_anderson334]

20. camps

its obvious that it will start its a pattern that we've seen in Nazi Germany. when a country starts to get in economic turmoil the leadership blames a small group of people and scapegoat them. if its not the gays that will get sent to camps it will be the intellectuals or the minorities or any other group the evil empire sees fit to persecute

[newyawker99]

82. Hi mr_anderson334!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[readmoreoften]

23. I had two friends gaybashed into the hospital in a two month period

there were 2 other gaybashings in the same period in a small area, one included an abduction and a gang sexual assault.

I would imagine your sister is not transgendered in any way, shape, or form and probably doesn't associate with any transgendered people (including hard butch lesbians) but only with corporate gay people who look very much like corporate straight folks.

Your sister will probably be fine. It's my partner that will be beaten to death. It's my partner that already has a chipped tooth from fighting off a gang of Texas A&M boys with a baseball bat.

It's not just a 'gay' issue, it's also a class issue and a gender expression issue.

Tell your sister thanks for laughing.

[mitchtv]

35. The day they overturn Lawrence v. Texas

I am out of here.I am Californian , so i expect to have a little extra time. 65 miles fro the border here

[foreigncorrespondent]

54. The marriage amendments...

...are just a start. If they get the FMA passed, which Bush* has said will happen next year. And Musgrave has said she would reintroduce it, then there won't be any stopping them.

All the rights the LGBT community currently enjoy, will be gone. They believe we are unnatural and need to be cleansed of our impurity, so you bet your bottom dollar a lof of us can see "cleansing camps" being set up. They truly believe that they can turn a gay person straight by using torture on them. When in fact all they are doing is sending that person straight (pun intended) back into the closet.

Unfortunately there are people like your sister who just can't see what is happening.

The LGBT community is made up of thousands of countless people who prefer to know where their next sexual conquest is coming from, rather than paying attention to what is happening with the lawmakers. When they come knocking on their doors, it will be sadly too late, for all of us.

And don't say it is impossible for this to happen. Ya wanna know what happened in my country recently? My right wing government with the help of the left wing passed laws federally banning any recognition of same sex marriage. I am now a second class citizen in Australia. The country I was born in.

Never say never, because believe me, it really can happen. I used to say I would never be a second class citizen in my country. Gee! Look what happened.

[leesa]

24. Wasn't one of the weasle Ollie North's jobs to set up concentration camps

all over the US. Aren't they already in place? Don't worry, you won't be alone...all liberals and intellectuals, Muslims, probably Jews and blacks will keep you company.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

57. REX84 authorized FEMA to set up the camps. THEY ARE REAL.

In 1987 former CIA Angola station chief John Stockwell warned of crazies in the Reagan admin. (who are now in the Bush/Torture admin.) talking about eliminating the Bill of Rights, 'legalizing' torture and disappearing on executive orders, pre-emptive wars and arrests, and activating concentration camps for dissenters and possible refugees if their secret wars in Central America caused a stampede of refugees into the southwest US.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4068.htm
(CIA John Stockwell 1987 speech)

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/camps.html

http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/gracebelievers/concentrationcamps.html

Don't worry about any millenialism or UN black helicopter nutty sounding stuff. The camps are very real.

Or just Google: REX84 FEMA CAMPS

[Rush1184]

67. Atleast one of the 'camps' listed on those sites is a legitimate prion

and not a concentration camp. That on is Morgantown, West Virgina. I know this because a relative of mine was sent there, and I can tell you from visiting it that it is an operational federal prison that is in use, and not an empty camp set-up for future use.

[cali]

26. I know the election

with the bad new from 11 states who voted to exclude gays and lesbians, not only from marriage, but in eight of those states, from civil unions, was incredibly disappointing to me- and I'm straight. I can only imagine how scary it is for the GLBT community. Having said that, I want to point out that at the same time that homophobia dressed up in religion is on the ascendancy, so too is far greater acceptance of gays and lesbians. It's just one of life's paradoxes. By a slight margin, Americans approve of civil unions. Just five years ago a sizable majority were against recognizing any form of partnership.
There's more good news. Lawrence was overturned. That's a big deal. Gays and lesbians can no longer be criminalized for their sexual lives. In my state of Vermont, 77% of our citizens approve of gay marriage or civil unions. Four years ago, only 49% did. I know people say, well, that's Vermont, but it's more complex than that. When people actually lived with civil unions, they realized in short order, that not only did c.u.'s not threaten straight folks, they were a good thing for everyone. MA has gay marriage. CA has a new registry for gay and lesbian partners, granting them many of the benefits of straight marriage.

What I guess I'm trying to say, is look how far we've come. Five years ago when the Vt Supremes told the legislature that excluding gays and lesbians from the privileges and responsibilities of marriage, ran counter to the VT Constitution, it was a big deal, front page stories throughout the country. Now it's the moderate position. Even bushco sort of supported Civil Unions during the race.

In the midst of a struggle, it's hard not to be overwhelmed by setbacks, but WE WILL PREVAIL.. We'll fight them in the courts, in state legislatures, in Congress, and in every other appropriate venue. And if they ever try and take my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters away, we'll fight them in the streets.

Have courage.

[The Stranger]

27. They started with the Muslims/Arabs in Guantanamo.

There is already a fully functioning camp there and no one mainstream really seems to worry too much about it.

[Behind the Aegis]

30. I agree!

Why is this not in the news? Where is the ACLU? The difference is that Arabs and Muslims will have the support of other nations, gays will not get the same support!

[The Stranger]

34. Perhaps the difference is that Muslims/Arabs are not considered human by

most Americans, but are considered subhuman. Many Americans have gay or lesbian family members or friends, or see them as a supposedly humorous caricature on television sitcoms.

Most Americans likely do not have Muslim/Arab family members or friends, and the only ones they see on television are terrorists wearing masks and running in slow motion with assault rifles at some training camp somewhere.

[Behind the Aegis]

38. True in some respects

This is what is happening to gays in this country too. The problem is that even people with gay family are not standing up when they need too. It is dangerous all around in this country!

[Disturbed]

31. Now is the time!

Waiting for the situation to get worse is extremely unwise.

We must take the stand against Facsism NOW!!!

[nostamj]

32. The Diary of Dan Frank (something I wrote for the WRITING forum

for the "Dystopia" thread:


The Diary of Dan Frank

I know. Terrible joke. Black and bleak. How dare a queer compare his plight to innocent Anne. Truth? Never read it. Remember Shelly Winters in the movie. Right? It's been years. Never went for those black and bleak pictures.

But I'm a furious, frustrated, and frightened old fag. We say flip things like that when we're furious, frustrated, and frightened. Should I sing you the score to Jerry Herman's DEAR WORLD or amuse you with my Bette Davis impression?

Sorry. Can't.
Days without a cigarette: 107.
Days without a cocktail: 126.
Sorry. Can't.
A proper Bette Davis impression requires both a cigarette and a cocktail.

Imagine it. There are no gay bars left by now, surely. Nothing in the open. No piano bars where a bearded baritone belts out the Judy Garland songbook. No go-go boys with g-strings stuffed with singles. No gentlemen of a certain age surveying the working boys in the bleary hours.

I watched them remove the gay statues from Sheridan Square on CNN. Two couples in white plaster. No one could even show up and cry. You'd think that one, one last drag queen with legends of the 1969 Stonewall Rebellion–(which happened just across the street)–empowering her wig and sequins would have shown up to toss a symbolic trash can or epitaph... It's a prayer park now.

But no. The 'lists' had been instituted. We had been out and proud. We had enlisted, marched, joined, donated and subscribed. And, we had been listed. New names crossed off every day. It's impossible to get a good haircut. Those who could, fled. Those who could not flee, hid. Or, were caught. Send to 'compassion camps' for healing.

I should be in Costa Rica (where everyone thinks I am). But, I hate to travel. Shouldn't I be pleased? Now, I can't travel at all. Legally. Can't even leave these rooms. My sister is too generous. Her husband is kind to a fault but his eyes betray his fears for their children.

My 'gentle' nephew must be coarsened, protected. He will never inherit my collection of show music. That was abandoned with the books and videos and...

This morning I sat in the dark and tried to recall the original cast recording of HOW NOW DOW JONES straight through. Who can resist a Brenda Vaccaro musical? But I stopped at the suicide song. Oops. Forgot about that one.

For the record, I am not suicidal. For reasons somewhere between cowardice and curiosity, I'm not going that route.

Staying here is not possible. There are rewards, great and small, for those who assist in outing anyone from the 'lists.' Witch hunts for fun and profit! Hunting an endangered species! It's the new Lotto!

Oh, they laughed when I warned them. Mary! What are they going to do? Nuke San Franciso?

Of course, the nuke came to South Florida. By boat. In the frenzy that followed, any opposition to the 'lists' was seen as un-American. After film of the first protests, where it was reported that NG troops were fired on by the 'militants,' organized opposition became a deadly gamble that very few were willing to take.

Soon. My brother-in-law knows why I asked for the maps. Soon I will try to find the underground. I hope they appreciate show tunes.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

53. 'Diary of Dan Frank'? Brilliant. Dead on target and poignant. Kudos.

I love your avatar too. It is too bad the truth always seems like dark humor these days.

I'm a straight who saw Nazi camp photos when I was six and that experience has framed how I see my species since that day. I relate to anyone who gets the 'fair game'-treatment from the rest of the herd.

I've told my Christian homophobe father that I'd get on a bus full of gays before a bus full of Christians because gays know what it is to be crucified while Christians are more likely to provide the nails.

That's why I moved to SF. Then the Gropinator became my governor.
Now that's funny! Ehhh..

[foreigncorrespondent]

55. Wow!!!

That one has left me in tears! Bloody brilliant writing, my friend!

[nostamj]

70. thanks....

appreciate the feedback! (as opposed to the backlash....

[Occulus]

102. VERY well-written. Deserves expansion.

[nostamj]

113. I may do additional 'diary' entries

since I've had some nice feedback on this. (DUer pagerbear even put it on his blog)

the length of this piece was determined by the 'rules' of the Writing forum thread which was to do a 1000 word piece on the coming distopia. I have the original version which ran nearly 2000 before cuts.

and THANKS for the feedback!

[Endangered Specie]

33. I hear they are going to call one of them "BUSHENWALD"

[JohnOneillsMemory]

40. I worry about a false flag neocon 'disaster' here in SF to rile Fundies.

The combination of progressive culture and big gay community make it a place that Fundies would describe as a camp of evil-doers to be smitten wrathfully by Gawd.

Oh yeah. The UN Charter was signed here, too. This is a very humane place and that antagonizes fascists.

Good thing Bechtel HQ is also here. In a bad way, of course.

[Ladyhawk]

41. Maybe my tinfoil hat has a hole in it, but I've worried about SF a lot.

If Bu$hCo MIHOP'd 9-11, I think they'd pick SF next. :( :( :(

[ilovenicepeople]

47. I have that terrible feeling as well, I hope I'm just parinoid.

[erniesam]

43. I think you're probably right. No matter what our approval rating is at

the moment one contrived incident gets reported endlessly on Fox (like the Scott Peterson case) it would be enough to change national opinion on civil unions or at the very least confuse the "debate." I placed debate in quotes because I don't see how my equal rights as guranteed by the constitution is debateable.

[Swamp Rat]

42. Not yet

Maybe they will do something different than round people up, like allow X-tian fundie homo-hunters to get a license to hunt and kill gay people within city limits. I have personally met people that want to hold public executions of gay people. :scared:

[__Inanna__]

44. Two additional links

The first one deals with a statement that Jeb Bush made about San Francisco

"Jeb Bush jokes people of San Francisco may be endangered"

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi%3Ff=/news/archive/2003/11/12/state0022EST0199.DTL

Second one is even more important...deals with removing powers of the court, in other words, maybe changing the constitution?

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/ConstitutionRestorationAct.htm


I only share for whatever it's worth. I am not saying I think SF is a target (although when I lived there I sure never felt safe, only because it was like a baby NY on the West Coast)

[RagingInMiami]

46. Meant to post this at the bottom, sorry for the dupe

Just cause Ashcroft is gone doesn't mean these camps won't be implemented.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/08.15B.ashcr.camps.htm

[__Inanna__]

50. Does anyone really believe in these camps?

I mean, it is so far fetched, although I admit it had me worried after I read up on it. Don't know how to do a poll, or I would. I have heard horror stories about these, but would like some rational DU perspectives. Thanking in advance...

[JohnOneillsMemory]

58. They exist. See my post #57 above. Or google: REX84 FEMA CAMP

In 1984 Reagan signed an executive order (REX84) authorizing the opening of the old Japanese internment camps plus new ones for two purposes.

1) For dissenters in time of war and mass civil unrest. Scary!
2) For refugees from south of the border in case Reagan's secret wars in Central America (Nicaragua and El Salvador) destabilized the region and caused a wave of brown people to stream into the southwest US.

He put a nut in charge of the camp project who was ready to open them up in case of an African American uprising after the Rodney King trial in LA.

FEMA was authorized to take over the entire country in case of national disaster. 9/11 allowed Our Torture 'president' to enact portions of REX84 allowing him to do some terrible stuff. Which he certainly is doing.

[theHandpuppet]

48. I truly believe these mandatory mental health screenings in schools...

... will be used against gays. Homosexuality will be considered a "psychological disorder" once again and any youth suspected of being queer will be put on forced meds and introduced to "re-education" programming.

This is not to say that gay youth will be the only targets of these forced mental health screenings. How much do you wanna bet that a disproportionate number of minority and poor youth will wind up on forced meds and at "special schools"? But I do believe the day is coming that the RW will use this testing to create lists of undesirables, and gay folks will top the list.

[MsConduct]

49. Not just for the gays I'm sure. I'm sure they will find a way to...

put all us leftys away some how. If they can't truly rule our minds, bodies and souls, they will get us out of their sight. I have seen the future and it ain't pretty.

[ever_green]

59. I was just going to say that. FEMA has camps all across the nation now

and more are being built. But it can't happen HERE right?! I bet that's what the Jews said in Nazi Germany....

[MsConduct]

74. I've seen that almost anything can happen here. Didn't know about the

FEMA camps. Thanks for the info.

[Lexingtonian]

52. No, I'm not that pessimistic

But as a matter of foresight, it's a good idea to carry spare keys for the closets and pad the closets well. Because they do mean to throw gay folks back into them and metaphorically throw away the key- as best as they can. Which is: not very efficiently, but sadly enough it could well turn some of the Red States from Purgatory for gay folks into Hell for a couple of years.

And we all know what the root of radical homophobia is, right.

[Hieronymus]

60. A woman friend of mine recently said exactly that,

an escape plan.
Interesting how the most homophobic cons have come to the defense of Dreier and Mehlman. Those people have no brains.:dunce:

[KnowerOfLogic]

61. I'm sure that a few of us won't be going gently... n/t

[AliciaKeyedUp]

64. Lesbian minister shouldn't be on your list

Religions have every right to set whatever rules they wish. I am a Catholic woman and can't be a priest. I either quit Catholicism or not. My choice. Same with the minister in question.

[thinkingwoman]

66. camps are soooooo last century

With New Freedom "undesirables" (as defined by whoever is in power of course) can be identified and neutralized with medication.

Get with the program.

[Carson]

71. Stop with the "camps" stuff.

I understand where you are coming from, but no one is going to be put into camps. Pre-election and immediately post-election, there were several threads worrying that Libs in general would be rounded up. Silly.

How many times can one cry "wolf!" before being completely ignored? Over-the-top rhetoric and scare tactics hurt more than help.

[LakeCohoon]

79. You Nailed It

This stuff is juvenile.

[Behind the Aegis]

86. .

I wonder how many times the Jews were accused of "crying wolf?" Of course, we can't ask most of them, can we?

[Carson]

88. Prime example of over-the-top rhetoric.

Again, I'm sympathetic to the views expressed in this thread but, as much as we like to compare Bush to Hitler, America is NOT Nazi Germany.

People who shout "Aids was purposefully created to kill gays" and other such nonsense make the legitimate cause look like it's filled with kooks.

This is my own opinion and, of course, you are entitled to yours, but can I have "I told you so" rights over the next 30 years?

[Behind the Aegis]

89. Correct

America is NOT Nazi Germany, but if you don't see this country moving toward fascism or a theocracy, then you aren't paying attention! Checks and balances in this country are in serious jeopardy and without them, they will absolute power. I am sure you know the quote about absolute power!

I hope you will have "told you so" rights, just like I hope I will still have my rights!

This country is in serious trouble!

[UncleSepp]

76. Let's start a Railroad of a different kind

I don't think that there will be mass detentions of gays and lesbians, if not for any other reason, than because there's no pressing economic need for the forced labor or for the housing and assets of gay and lesbian people and families. That isn't the only reason - there are a host of them, but that's the most cynical and cold reason that comes to mind.

However, it isn't unreasonable to think that gays and lesbians will lose effective legal protection. With homophobia at a high level, it isn't necessary for the SA to come knocking heads. All that is required is to allow hate to take its course, and when gay and lesbian people bring up assault charges or worse against their attackers, judges and juries with minds infected by this hate will choose decisions sympathetic to the attacker all on their own. On a lesser scale, gays and lesbians may not find any recourse when fired, evicted, overcharged, and so forth. This form of oppression requires no invisible hand, no strings, no direction from above, but is still very dangerous.

I think it's probably getting close to time now for those of us in safe areas where people aren't buying this bull to start offering space in our homes, rides out, and help to gay and lesbian people who are living in unsafe areas. How about it?

[murray hill farm]

80. I agree...

The subtle "camping" of gays already exists in the USA! It wont get better in the next four years, and it will get worse in the next four years..how much worse is the question. Come to Mexico to live..and i cannot tell you what the legalities are here for protection of gays and gay rights, the is a catholic country..but i can tell you that the subtle and negative attitude does not exist here..at all! One the very tiny island where i live, there is a long term transvestite community here..mexicans..totally accepted and included and integrated completely..such a refreshing change from the USA.

[SnowBack]

111. You have to be kidding...

Things have been improving, but Mexico would NOT be a safer place for GLBT folk.

Check out

http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/sexorient/sexorient.html

[knight_of_the_star]

106. That should be doable

The Border Patrol near here is like a sieve, we could probably funnel some refugees out of the country through SD into Mexico and supply them with the needed cash and paperwork to catch a plane to Europe and gain asylum.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. No boy you are the one who sounds ignorant

here is a piece of reading advise, RISE AND FALL OF THE THIRD REICHT

you can follow that by WAR AGAINST THE JEWS.

Want more reading material?

Gays are not wrong to be nervous... oh and by the way, Jews should start paying attention... what was that crap about a USSC Member, telling us that we had nothing to fear living in a Christian Nation? Oh boy the ignorant who have not read the last 2000 years of history may buy it... I am not

[LakeCohoon]

92. The Nazis Are Coming

Yada yada yada. And so are the Space Aliens.

I would also add that your reading preferences are rather dry. Could I perhaps suggest Mein Kampf?

[Behind the Aegis]

85. Childish

I can assure you I am not 13 or 14, haven't been for YEARS! I am sorry you have chosen to act superior and uneducated, but that is your right! I am concerned about mine! So, I think you are the one who "needs a clue!" Try reading a book about the genocide that is the Holocaust! The Nazis didn't just set up a camp one day and start carting people off....it took years! But, it happened because people were willing to look the other way or say things like "it can't happen here!" 14 million would disagree with that assumption!

[superconnected]

90. with things like the patriot act

where people have already been inprisoned without trials, lawyers and with terms of indefinitely, I can't believe you guys would think comparing this place to the direction of nazi german is juvenile.

Will there be gay camps? Outlawing "gay speech" is a form of outlawing gays. Gay camps aren't that far away when you look at what our government will resort to in order to "protect" us. In this case the would call it protecting our "family values."

[Behind the Aegis]

91. I don't think it is a juvenile comparison

I started the original post. I think this country is coming very close to repeating history, in a very bad way! I think you and I agree...things are becoming very dangerous for many people, but gays are at the top of the list!

[LakeCohoon]

93. Whatever You Say

Actually, I am educated—and about more than just this stuff.

My history tells me that the last time they started rounded up people in this country, it was one of the “good guys” that was behind it all. Having said that, what you are suggesting just isn’t going to happen. But, if you choose to reside out there beyond the realm of reality, you are certainly free to do so.

[Behind the Aegis]

97. Oh I see now..

You're a revisionist! Gotcha! Then it is completely understandable why you think this is outside the realm of possibility and you refuse to see the reality of the past. It might also explain why you suggested Mein Kampf as a 'less dry' reading! Still, I find it interesting that you can say "your" history shows the rounding up of people only 60 years ago by a "'good guy'" and you can't believe a bad one could do the same.

[LakeCohoon]

109. The Govt. Can't Even Round Up The Terrorists

A revisionist…? Are you suggesting that FDR had nothing to do with the Japanese interment? And the reference to Mein Kamph was one of facetiousnesses. The fact that you took it seriously reveals just how out of touch you really are. (Watch out for that Nazi behind the tree)

[Behind the Aegis]

110. Gays aren't terrorists

I know FDR had something to do with the interment camps. My point was if a "good guy" could do that, then there is NO telling what an asshole like Shrub will do! I am not worried about Nazis behind trees, I am worried about bigots rewriting the Constitution. You, however, seem to live in a fantasy world where human rights and diversity are respected. I live in the real one, where differences are reviled and groups of people are targets for religious and secular bigots. The fact that you cannot grasp this tells me you cannot see parallels from past events, nor do you have much compassion. I am surprised that your reference to Mein Kampf was facetious, so, I guess that is just a happy surprise.

As for rounding up terrorists, I don't know many terrorists groups that have national standing in the open, unlike the HRC and NGLTF, as well as scores of other national and local gays rights organizations! Gays are a much easier target to round-up than terrorists!

[elderly man]

94. Any Gays or Lesbians here with permits to carry?

If not,why not?

[MacCovern]

95. Comment heard at work: "Maybe those f**got* will realize now...

that we don't like them as much as they thought we did!!!!!"

This was a couple days after Nov. 2, and a co-workers was commenting
on the defeat of gay marriage/unions in all 11 states that voted on it.

I was shocked, but didn't make an issue of it. I live in a red
state and I can tell you right now that is how the majority feels
toward the thought of gay marriage.

[rhyfeddu]

101. The neo-cons want to solidify their power...

...they have it in their oily little hands, and they will not relinquish it willingly. They gleefully want to see the country being made over in their image. To realize that, and continue this painfully successful con-job on the "average American", you must have a rallying point. Fear. Fear of the other.

To have the sheep back their world ambitions, you have the Muslims. To back their domestic plans, you now have gays and lesbians.

Who knows if things will descend into another Nazi nightmare? I, for one, don't rule it out. No one has ever thought it could happen to them, I'm sure, without a period of denial. But for those who scoff at those of us whose "Spidey Sense" is in overdrive, they are not paying attention...At the least, this federal stamp of approval on the notion that gays aren't full citizens, gives every nutjob out there implied approval to remind us of that, and slap us in our perceived place. All these headlines of emboldened bigotry towards gay people is an indication of that.

Welcome to the backlash. How bad it will get is up to alot of things, including how seriously we take this threat and what we do about it.

[arwalden]

107. The Fringe CHRISTIAN Wackos Are In Charge...

... what *else* would you expect??

[donsu]

114. they will put them on meds - no need for barbed wire

nt

[Jose Diablo]

115. Yes, but if you are gay

do not feel like it is just you, there are many many groups that will be also targeted.

As for where it stops, it never does stop. Haven't you heard, there is just no end to doing "good".

What to do? Make plans to be protected and sheltered by friends. Network, keep a stash of money, be prepared and willing to drop-out very quickly when it starts. Remember, it is not just the authorities that will do this, it is the "righteous" neighbors that will do you in.

[neebob]

118. This thread amazes me

"Shut up! It'll never happen."
"No, get a gun ... no, a crossbow."

At least I can see where the shut-up people are coming from, even if I think they're naive.

The get-a-gun people seem to think it's the 18th or 19th century, or maybe they just like the idea of getting off a shot or two before you get vaporized.

[Jose Diablo]

119. Actually Bob it is just like the 18th or 19th century

If the Jews and taken with them only one Gestapo agent each, well they would not have been exterminated because Germany would have ran out of Gestapo agents long before the Jews could have been close to being exterminated. Dictators depend on peoples natural desire to be "law abiding" and passive to work their wills.

You seem to think people are helpless in the face of despotic governments just because the government has big guns. It is the government that is helpless before the people. It is governments that wish to make people feel helpless by keeping people separate and alone so the government can deal with people one at a time. That is the method dictators use.

[neebob]

120. I was referring to others' statements about the Second Amendment

being designed to protect the citizenry from government. That's true, but it was based on this 1788 scenario where the biggest and deadliest weapon the government had was what - a cannon? - and everybody else had pistols and muskets or rifles or long guns or whatever they called them. There was no income tax, no social security numbers, or any of the other things that enable the government to control and track its citizens. Before they built the big machine that enslaved almost everyone. People were used to providing their own sustenance and had a completely different attitude toward the government.

It's ridiculous to say it's just like the 18th or 19th century. Now the government has guns and other weapons that individuals can't get, along with a vast communications network that enables it to locate people and deploy forces to round them up very quickly. Most people can't just run off into the wilderness like it's 1788, and few of those who can have the survival skills to last very long. So yes, I think most people are helpless in the face of it.

Sure, the Jews might have made a dent in the Gestapo by taking them out one by one, but Hitler would have recruited or conscripted more Gestapo agents. It's beside the point, anyway, because it didn't happen. And it won't happen now.

You're not going to convince millions of 21st-century Arab Americans and gays and liberals other potential enemy combatants to buy guns and other weapons and plan on shooting it out.

In fact, I should think buying a gun is a good way to get labeled an enemy combatant that much faster.