Gay marriage bans would pass almost ANY state - Red OR Blue...

[fujiyama]

We really need to let go of thinking of this in terms of red states or blue states.

It doesn't make much sense. After all, can MI, PA, WI really be considered blue?

MI went to Kerry by like 2.5%. MI by about 150k more voters. At the same time, it also passed on of the most restrictive gay marriage and civil union bans. It passed by 60% or so...The sad thing is, this is one of the lower % by which it passed. It passed in MS and AR by like 70-80%, but nevertheless it still passed - that too in the state Portland OR, one of the most liberal in the US (granted the rest of the state isn't that liberal). Same here in MI, without Washtenaw County (home of Ann Arbor where the UM campus is), it would have passed by a higher % - probably by around 70%.

But it also passed in OR. Make no mistake about it. A gay marriage ban would pass in just about ANY state, except a few on the east coast. After all, even Dean faced DEATH THREATS for his signing of the civil unions bill. That took a LOT of guts, regardless of what state he was from.

The gay community is facing a lot of hatred. We can't tolerate this. It's appalling and unfortunately Dem pols are help captive by this. For example our own governor has taken out civil union protections, because it probably conflicts with the law (a very broad amendment which bans civil unions)...that too after she spoke against it.

This, along with the PATRIOT Act and our civil liberties in general are very important. I'm a minority, so I feel a lot of sympathy for gays, even if I'm straight myself. No human should be treated this way. I know this feeling of paranoida. For example, I read of an incident where some person had an Arabic person at their home. Their home was searched and their garbage and other things were looked at - because some neighbor was suspicious...

So, now I should imagine that bcause of my skin color AND opposition to this regime, that I should be held in suspicion. Say I hired someone to install something and they saw a book that was very critical of this administration. They could report me to TIPs. I could be held without charges pressed against me...and interogatted without legal representation.

Then, considering our new Attorney general said the Geneva convention means nothing, I could just as easilly be tortured.

Ah, I love this new America! Gee, I suppose the gays will be forced to have shock therapy again. I heard this is what they did in the '60s.

[cali]

1. Wrong.

Exit polls in Vermont this past election showed that 77% of Vermonters support either civil unions or gay marriage, as compared to 49% in 2000. Vermonters are so over the division that occurred in 2000. Also, the threats against Dean came chiefly from out of state. There is no way that Vermonters would enact anti-gay legislation. Our legislature is now overwhelmingly dem with a healthy sprinkling of progressives. Even in the Northeast Kingdom, the most Conservative part of the state, Vermonters voted for Kerry Edwards, and kicked out the most virulent opposer of civil unions, replacing her with a progressive.
For 20+ years Vermont has been passing laws protecting the rights of our GLBT community. We're proud of our civil rights stance.

[fujiyama]

4. Good for Vermont

As I said, there are some exceptions in the NE.

As I said, I'm not gay, but Vermont sounds like a nice state. Any state that had the sense to elect Dean that many times can't be all that bad...

Plus, I heard it's very beautiful as well.

[cali]

7. It's remarkably beautiful.

And we guard that vigilantly. No billboards. Strong environmental and zoning laws. A sense of place. My favorite day if town meeting day where citizens get together and haggle over democracy, then have a killer pot luck.

[bunkerbuster1]

5. Vermonters are informed, y'see...

most of the country isn't informed, because our democratic "leadership" has been pansy-assed about supporting civil rights.

Dammit, I'll say it again:

First they came for the "enemy combatants," and I did not speak up because I was not an enemy combatant.

Then they came for the gays, and I did not speak up because I was not gay...

[Oak2004]

9. For those who don't fully understand what a VT Progressive is

Translation into rest-of-the-country-ese: the most conservative part of Vermont kicked out a looney right Rethug incumbent and replaced her with a third-party democratic socialist.

One of the few bright spots this November. Makes me proud of my state (and my party) :-)

[cali]

10. Seeing Nancy Shelta, that revolting bigot, get the boot,

made me giddy with joy. And that she was replaced by a prog, made it that much sweeter. Bless the wacky old Kingdom.

[Swamp Rat]

2. THANK YOU!

"We really need to let go of thinking of this in terms of red states or blue states." - Yes! Red/Blue States DO NOT EXIST!

This is a CONSTRUCT used in conjunction with propaganda to divide America.

[noamnety]

3. Is anyone here in MI working on a new proposal?

I know the one that passed is going through court challenges because of the vague wording. But do we know if anyone is working on a new proposal to modify it?

Personally, I never saw an ad explaining how severely it curtailed rights - it was always discussed as a "gay marriage ban" although it was far more than that. I think an amendment to strike out the vague language at the end that forbids all rights would have a chance of passing, since they can't attach the trite "marriage ban" label to that.

How do we find out if anyone's working that, or how to get it going if nobody is? (I'm good at signing petitions, but I was never involved in creating one and getting it through the system.)

[rjbrooks]

6. In KY

i understand there is a group funded by the right wing trying to get the courts to throw out the marriage amendment so they can get it back on the ballot as the hot button issue in the next general election.

[chicagiana]

8. I don't believe this is true ...

The Republicans worded a lot of those referendum funny such that people would vote against civil union when they were actually for them.

But, I do agree that a clear majority is against gay marriage. And I think it would be prudent for Democrats to help bans along provided they protect and promote civil unions.

As a party, you need to run on issues that will win. And gay marriage is a losing issue right now. In my opinion, the country isn't ready for it yet.

Civil Unions should soften up public opinion and eventually clear the way for gay marriage. But it's a process of people getting used to the idea.

We do have more important issues to worry about than arguing over the semantics of what we call protection for homosexual domestic arrangements (civil unions vs marriage).

[sonicx]

11. actually, they could be defeated if...

there was a solid effort put into deafeating them.

In MI and OH, The Govs of both states were against the bans, but they only let that been known a hand few times. OH is run by pukes and they were against it because it could F with the rights and contracts between unmarried, straights. same with MI. The public never really picked up on that.

[Radical Activist]

12. It isn't just about gay marriage

that is just the latest issue to turn religious working class people against the Democrats. Yes, it works in the blue states as well. That's why we need to shift the debate to the economic issues.

More importantly we need someone who knows how to appeal to voters in the south and midwest. A political consultant from New York, DC or Boston does not understand how to appeal to them.

[Banazir]

13. Agreed with a lot of what you said, and...

...worried about Democrats and other so-called liberals abandoning gay rights issues just because it makes other people not like us. Doing that, they'll end up just as bad as the far right on these matters. And so far have already managed to be dragged to the right a fair bit by going along with stuff in this manner. Someone posted about this recently but I can't find the link: Refusing to take any stand on things in order to seem "moderate" and more appealing just makes for a weak party and a "center" that gets dragged further and further right.

[KnowerOfLogic]

14. It's a sad state of affairs; but in the end justice will prevail. n/t