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bzmtq5 Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:35 PM
Original message
One Freewill Argument for the existance of Satan
From a friend, nothing gruesome. Just some sound theology IMHO.

Interview with the Devil
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. Why did God make the Devil?
If he loves us, why would he do such a thing?
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. QM says out of nothing pops energy - Do you not believe in Quantum
Mechanics?

Perhaps out of nothing we got Satan - at least for a while?

Perhaps God's free will IS SHOWN IN QUANTUM?

All too complicated for me

peace

:-)
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Caution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. This belongs in one of the religion groups rather than in GD
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raggedcompany Donating Member (399 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. agreed
check out some of the associated links.

http://www.airjesus.com/ for example.

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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
3. Help me out here...
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 02:51 PM by trotsky
Satan hates God, right?

So why then, is he doing EXACTLY what God wants, to fulfill God's universal plan?

In other words, Satan seems more like God's VP than his competition.

I dunno, that's just never made sense to me. Satan being a willing player in God's game when he's supposed to be the "fallen angel" or rebel.

On edit: Now that I've read more of the piece, it's even worse than I thought. Satan plays this game so he can collect more souls, even though he knows he loses in the end? THEN WHY PLAY AT ALL?!? Again, it seems more like he is a willing accomplice than the loyal opposition. I'm sorry, but this just makes no sense.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. No, God does not hate Satan
God loces all of his children, including Satan
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. That's not what I said.
I asked if Satan hates God, not the other way around.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. umm
nevermind
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. If god is a perfect being
It is impossible for him to create an imperfect being.

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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. There's the error.
God ain't perfect. God is simply in charge. We always want our leaders to be perfect.

The hardest thing about religion is not getting God to forgive our sins, but how we never forgive God's sins. We deny them, whitewash them, take the blame on ourselves, but we never forgive God.
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McKenzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
5. consider the issue of someone who is mentally ill
How can they exercise free will if they are not in control of their own actions? And that is only where the person is recognisably clinically ill. There is a myriad of shades of grey as to mental health. Will these people get in through the pearly gates?

That raises a very interesting issue, namely fair assessment of how someone has behaved as measured against theological teachings. Will there be an appeals system in heaven? I mean, surely there will be a few marginal cases that merit being presented to a reviw panel... In my case, if I end up in heaven I'll petition the review board because I like devillish types better, especially when it comes to women.

Thanks for the link but I am irredeemably wicked. I'm off to play Led Zep records backwards so I can find out just what Satan wants me to do today...in fact, I'm doing it right now...uncoooork the whissssky booootle...youuuu cannnnot resssssisssst. You're damned right there oh pointy tailed one. Slainthe.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
7. Ehn... it's alright - couple of good points.
Have you read 'The Screwtape Letters' by C.S. Lewis?
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Getchasome Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. Have you ever read "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis?
What a bunch of bullshit. A pasture at a church my sister-in-law attends told me to read it because it would change my mind and "convert" me. I tore that book apart. (not physically) It's full of so many leaps in logic it's almost like a comic book. I'm sure it works for those who are already believers because they tend not to think critically on such topics.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. No, I haven't... and probably will not.
"The Screwtape Letters" were more of a commentary on the sorts of behavior that 'christians' engage in while thinking that dropping a dollar in the tray every Sunday is going to save them from.

It's got some commentary on hypocrisy - not too much sappy garbage.

I rate it a 6.

Here's more my personal view;

(Sorry I have to print it here- I couldn't find the link... It's a bit lengthy. What is your take on this?)

The Real War.


The Human Race is in jeopardy. Currently, a vast war is raging unseen below the surface of our consciousness.

We believe we are engaged in conflicts for many different reasons and under the impetus of many ideals. For the most part, this is true.
We are at war in the Middle East for a number of reasons depending upon whom you ask. We are at war here at home over issues of freedom, happiness, and values.
We are at war with economic forces that will spell our demise as a nation unless we all become economic warriors with the understanding that triage may become a very real necessity.

But there is a greater war, one from which all of these symptoms arise. It is the War for the salvation or obliteration of the human race.

I have come to understand, through study of human nature and human consciousness, just what fate humanity has mapped out for itself. I have come to describe my theory as “The Human Omega”.
No one can argue that humans are not an ambitious species. In fact, we know very well that humanity will ALWAYS reach for what it perceives to be within it’s grasp. It is because of this that we have come so far as a species.
We have the capacity to become so much more than we are, and that is precisely what we have done for millennia. We will reach forward to grasp new concepts, new ideas, and new technologies we are not now even capable of imagining. We will take hold of our own evolution. Whether it takes one hundred years, one thousand, one million… it does not matter; it WILL happen.
I have no doubt that left to explore and flourish humanity will attain transcendence tantamount to true divinity. We will become our own God, made in our image and vice-versa.
Our descendants will become masters of time, space, and consciousness.

All we need do is survive.

One of the greatest hallmarks of the human race is the retention of knowledge. As we acquire the technology to retain information we utilize it – immediately.

Perhaps you are reading this on a website – imagine the amount of information that site backs up and retains. There may be a Library of Congress’ worth of posts, threads and information held in the server memory and backed up for permanent storage.
Now… think of how much information was stored only thirty years ago - A fraction of a fraction of what we store today. How will we preserve everything we want to?

Our divine descendants may well deal with that too, but their methods know no boundaries we can imagine. As masters of time, space, consciousness, and perhaps a number of other curricula we cannot imagine, why not save EVERYTHING?

The trend toward this human destiny is utterly inexorable. Having studied how the human race reaches in all directions around the globe and ever further into the farthest reaches of space, into the future and farther into the past to understand the origin of life on earth. As we delve ever deeper into ourselves, into our intricate intellectual makeup, into our genetic composition, there can be no question we will one day achieve divinity.

Should there exist even a shred of human curiosity in our descendants, (Considering curiosity drove them, I imagine more than a shred will persevere.) they will most likely preserve every consciousness that has ever existed.
Everything will be preserved, perhaps they will have no need for machines, or their machines are woven into the very fabric of the universe; but every event, every dream, every thought, every blade of grass ever to exist, everything from the very beginning of time until the end will be forever preserved in living memory.

If this seems far-fetched to you, try to explain an automobile to a Neanderthal.
I don’t understand how these things would work any more than he would understand what makes a Porsche run… but he can understand what it does… as I can this.

So when a consciousness passes from life, that consciousness will find absolute access to every bit of knowledge, every event, and every perspective in the universe. Even yours.
You will come to know everything, and to be anything.
This is the gift our children can give us, our descendants, with the impetus to preserve gifted to them by our common nature, will preserve all.
The vast loop of the continuum will be closed, linear time will become meaningless, and we BECOME divine… We achieve the Human Omega.
For all intents and purposes – this may already be the case given that time is not linear.
We cannot know what philosophy our descendants will operate on, we can only know that we will not know or understand it until we rejoin the Omega Consciousness. We can pretend all we want to be right or moral, but there will certainly be more to the truth than second-guessing the will of God.

This brings us to the Great Fear.

There is no question that we are in pain. We witness the atrocities we visit upon each other, the tortures, the injustices... so much pain.
It is said that those who do evil do so because they are in pain.
One cannot imagine a pain they have not felt, but, in some fashion or another, they experience the pain they have caused.
This then becomes a cycle; The Tormentor is in pain because of the pain he has caused. He does not realize that his pain is self-loathing; he cannot understand his masochism – for he is immediately aware of his victim’s agony. He seeks to cause pain to punish himself. The Tormentor turns his pain back into anger that seeks to inflict pain once again.
This pain is unfathomable, but it does not merely reside in the individual, it pervades the human super-, sub-, and unconscious. It is passed around from person to person, culture to culture, generation to generation.
Like a virus, this pain begets itself perpetually; it will not perish until we rise above it.

Just like Jesus said.

But ‘it’ does not want that.
Without getting into Human Superconscious Theory, this is best explained by saying that this vast human suffering has taken on a life of it’s own. Somewhere in the interface between this vast suffering and human empathy, there has evolved a disturbing dissonance, which has yielded a self-sustaining entity.
Pain begets not only pain, but the methods of its continuation as well.

There is an operative effect on the human psyche because of this pain. There is fear.
This fear is so deeply embedded in our racial subconscious that it too has a ‘life of it’s own’.
The fear is of spending eternity with the pain we have caused.

We know that there are one of two ultimate outcomes for the human race.

One is the transcendence of humanity by constant growth and enlightenment.

The other is absolute Oblivion

The pain we are in are the cumulative screams of millions upon millions tortured alive, the tears of a child who didn’t want to die hungry the day the death squad came, the mother putting a plastic shopping bag over the head of her baby to futilely try to save it from the poison gas as she succumbs to a rasping death.
There is a great awareness of this horrific torment, both in the victims, and in the tormentors.

This is a pain so great it begs for Oblivion. To forget forever, to have never been is it’s only desire.

This pain has been at war with our destiny for thousands of years.

Should the Human Race survive, this pain will be preserved forever in the consciousness of The Human Omega.
Should the Human Race be extinguished, there will be no Human Omega, and we will all descend into the soft, eternal nothingness of oblivion.

This vicious agony has not sat still and waited for us to extinguish ourselves, nay – it has spent countless centuries engineering our demise.
Through the human subconscious it has worked to trigger our own undoing, and these are the times it has been brought to bear.

Being so imaginative, we have tried to devise methods to explain the world around us with little or no empirical rational.
Religion was one of those methods.
When we developed empathy as a race, we had to find a way to justify taking the life of a screaming animal for our own sustenance. We developed more humane means of doing so and also ‘told ourselves’ that a higher power said it was ok to do so.

Our survival was that ‘higher power’; we called it ‘God’.

But we took religion, which has roots in Human Superconscious understanding, too far.
We let the pain in.
Pain and Religion don’t mix. Just like Jesus said.

We created the ‘Deadly Meme’ of our own destruction.
There can be no doubt that the anger of ‘fire and brimstone’ and the ‘Wrath of God’ was not written out of enlightenment, but rather out of the realization that there was so much wrong… so much pain. These writings had such beauty and wisdom, they were accepted as carte blanche and absolute truth, and therein lay the danger.

For over a thousand years, huge portions of the human race have invested their faith in stories that tell them they will be favored when all else perish in fire.
They read that if they did ‘this’ and believed ‘that’, they would be given such rewards they cannot imagine. And so the faithful have divested themselves of human conscience, the precursor of faith, to acquire those rewards.
Such a powerful impetus as faith extends far beyond and much deeper than the empirical actions of the faithful, however.

This notion of the ‘end of the world’ has been invested in by so many, over such a period of time, and with such fervor – it may be impossible to stop it.

Because of a number of books written from the perspective of this pain, we may not survive as a race.

This belief in the end of the world has fueled the actions of so many of our leaders. They are so certain Armageddon is upon us that they have no intention of preserving our resources or our restraint. They have been fooled into believing that their actions are divine and that the destruction of the Human Race has no impact on achieving divinity.

The greatest deceiver has deceived them. The very thing they believe they are waging war against has fooled them.

They will go to any lengths to carry out its will by lashing out at the agony and creating more. This cycle will wind itself into a literal firestorm of extinguishing rage.

We must not allow these things to occur, we must not allow our leaders to take us into a holy war in this age of mass destructive capability.

For then surely we will embrace oblivion.


-Dr. Garth Eldritch
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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #20
32. better to have read gurdjieff's "beelzebub's tales to his grandson"
lewis was just trying to accredit religion as a nightlight against the Big Sleep.
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #20
33. Pasture...?
A pasture at a church my sister-in-law attends told me to read it because it would change my mind and "convert" me.

Were they hoping that you'd become pasturized? :evilgrin:

I've never been a big fan of C.S. Lewis's theological reasoning. However, I doubt any book could have had that effect on you. It's hard to "convert" anyone to anything when they've already taken a hostile attitude toward it, along the lines of "I've made up my mind, don't confuse me with facts."

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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
8. No god,ergo no devil
Happy Holidays!
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superconnected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. I know filmmakers
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 03:11 PM by superconnected
who took up religion (christianity/judaism/catholicism they didn't all chose christian) because they thought they met the devil. They all ran into the same guy in LA, an indie filmmaker who runs an internet canablism sites.

I walked into a filmmakers meeting in seattle 3 years ago and had to confess christ when I walked in the door, because they wouldn't let me in otherwise since they had run into that guy.

wierd huh. Imagine deciding to take up religion because you met someone you suddenly thought was Satan. They did. It had a huge effect on the indiefilm community. I know a woman who was wiccan that decided the christian god was fine and believed in Christ because of that guy.

I doubt he was satan though, he didn't even claim to be satanic. I never met him personally, just read his posts till he got banned from a film site. I must say, he did seem dark, but Satan?
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fairfaxvadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
9. I took the bait and sat through that piece.
It made no sense. cigarettes are the invention of the Devil? All those adulterers and only 3 didn't know it was wrong? And yet, people are perfectly capable of being evil without Satan's help? Then why bother having the Devil at all?

Better go read The Brothers Karamazov and Ivan's discussion with Satan there. Much better theology.

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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Heh, kind of what I was thinking.
If this passes for "sound theology," no wonder I'm an atheist.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I went there.
Kindergarten theology. I regretted adding to his hit count.

--IMM
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. The guys been spamming it in every thread he's been in
I wasn't even giving him the pleasure of my click :)
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. But it runs 140 pages - hard on the brain! - if you are refering to his
discussion with the priest about half way into the book!????

I'm into this stuff - and it was hard read for me to stay awake!

:-)
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
14. Hi bzmtq5!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
17. One Freewill Argument for the existance of Satan
one word, Bush.
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
31. ya, that focker is the anti-christ
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
19. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. Too late
So why don't you explain how it's not futile to try to prove God's existence or non-existence?
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Getchasome Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. It's not futile to debate his existence,
it may be futile to debate his nonexistence however, because the burden of proof is on those that claim existence. Asking for proof of nonexistence is like saying "Saddam needs to show us the weapons he says he doesn't have." However, debating existence is not futile at all.
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Getchasome Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
21. Read "Dear Theologian." by Dan Barker, an ex-born again.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
26. nonsense . . . humans created "the Devil" to put a face on evil . . .
and evil is merely the absence of good . . . much as darkness is the absence of light . . . and good will always overcome evil, just as light always overcomes darkness . . . just have to flip the switch . . . or wait for the Sun to come up . . .
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BillZBubb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
29. Mankind doesn't need Satan to help do evil
We are perfectly capable on our own. Satan is a fig leaf.
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
30. This is bullshit. There is no argument here, only bullshit.
Republican bullshit to be more precise. Republicraps believe the best way to govern is through the legislation of religious morality, primarily sexual morality.

The message is "love your neighbor does not mean love other nations".

That is a direct quote.

So, we must unite with the asshole bush in his imperial quest against other nations to be godly huh?

I would suggest taking a college class to improve your critical thinking skills. To say the sun rises does not prove that the guy next to you has hemorrhoids. Logically, that is the substance of your "argument"

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