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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:57 PM
Original message
should we educate every American child?
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 06:57 PM by ulysses
Understand two things before answering.

1. I mean *every* American child not in a clinically diagnosed coma. I worked this summer with severely and profoundly intellectually disabled kids, including spastic/quadriplegic kids with whom it's very difficult to tell that they're even "there" (edit - at times). Instructional objectives for these kids involve being able to hang up a shirt for the severely disabled kids, and being able to focus their attention on a noisemaking object for the profoundly disabled.

2. I mean educating them with public funds, to the fullest extent to which they are capable.

I say yes, vehemently. What say you?
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MisterP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. sure: it won't cost as much dough as the DoD MISPLACES every year!
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yup.
nt
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. a doctor of few words, you are.
:)
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Absolutely nothing else to be said on the matter.
Unless some stupid motherfucker wants to disagree with me.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. trust me, someone wants to
but they haven't yet dared.
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Well tell him or her to bring it on.
Cowardly suckers.
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
24. Chin Up
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livinbella Donating Member (477 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. You bet! That is an underpinning of Democracy
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
5. The disabled were beaten, unfeed, unwashed or otherwise abused
prior to the educational acts that supported them. The purpose is as much for their safety as it is for educational reasons.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
8. Only if we want our citizens at their very best
We must be willing to make sure ALL children have access to the best education we can give them. I say we all benefit when we educate people. I see some who seem to think it's only in their interest if their own children are well educated. I say it's just as much my interest to see every other children well educated.
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
10. Well, but these kids have been, like, all "born" and stuff.
Now, if they were "unborn," and we could get some political mileage out of them, maybe we'd be okay with throwing 'em a few dollars now and then.

But caring about actual, living children? Why, that's just crazy-talk!

</sarcasm>

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AliciaKeyedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
11. The question is not should we, but how
Should children who are far behind, disruptive or severely disabled be mainstreamed? Up to a point, yes. Beyond that, no.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. it's not a question of mainstreaming. n/t
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AliciaKeyedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Care to elaborate?
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. sorry - by mainstreamed, I take you to mean
"put in general education classes". That's not appropriate for some kids, but maybe that's not what you meant.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
13. Society has many obligations to its children and educating
them to the fullest extent that they can be educated is one of them.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
14. Depends what you mean by education
If you mean- teach them to think critically so that they can evaluate information and form ideas themselves- hell yes.

If you mean catechising, indoctrinating and conditioning their responses- then I say leave them ignorant.
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Gold Metal Flake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
16. We all work together.
We all learn together. We all prosper together. We all rise together. Education for our children is a wise investment for the future.

There are no new "paradigms". No matter what is the basis for the economy, societies work the same in any age.
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journalist3072 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
17. YES!
EVERYONE has a right to an education.

What does it say about "American" values that there are so many barriers to people receiving a quality education?
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greatauntoftriplets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
18. Yes.
What more can I say?
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
19. Aghh! You're doing it again!
I wander off to get a glass for my half of the Friday night toast, and find that you're stirring up the anthill yet again. I'll go ahead and drop the other shoe, 'kay?

First: YES. We should educate every American child. With public funds. To the fullest extent that they are capable. Whether that means teaching them to blink for a drink, or sending them on to MIT.

Now for the other shoe:

Inherent in this statement is the acknowledgement that not every child is equally capable. That doesn't just apply to the profoundly disabled; it applies to all of us. We all have different talents, and different areas that are more difficult. I will never dance like Baryshnikov, sing like Billie Holiday, run like Jackie Joyner-Kersee, or look like Sophia Loren. But I've enjoyed dancing, singing, some athletic recreation, and a little admiration here and there.

Not all children are equally academically capable. There. The shoe dropped. And, therefore, legislation/policies/politics/programs/mandates/philosophies/curriculums/methodologies/techniques/systems/etc. / that demand that all children be equally "proficient" are unrealistic as well as harmful. What we see happening is the "dumbing down" of opportunities for the academically advanced/gifted/talented, and the guaranteed failure of those whose gifts lie elsewhere, who will not ever make the bar set before them. We don't all start at the same starting line, and we are not all going to reach the same level of skill in every area.

This is reality, but it is also dangerous meat in public education. Because as soon as you admit that not everyone is capable of achieving academic honors, you've discriminated. Sure, there is an understanding that kids with certain labels or disabling conditions will not achieve on the same level as their non-disabled/labeled peers. But there is no acknowleging that every single human is an individual, with individual differences, strengths, abilities, and weaknesses. It's part of the contradiction inherent in the one-size-fits-all systems public ed is built on. If you acknowledge the differences, you are somehow limiting personal growth or achievement.

If our competition obsessed culture could let go of the constant comparisons, and measure individual growth no matter where the individual happened to start, we'd be better off. If we could structure our systems to individualize all instruction as the norm, kids working at different levels, skills, or activities would be the norm. Kids comparing their performance to their own previous performance, instead of to the other people around them, would be the norm. I've seen this work. I've done it. Successfully.

So...who's willing to support public policy that recognizes differences?

Right now, our special ed classes, housing kids with profound disabilities, are forced to present grade level standards in grade level texts to kids who can't spell their own name. Our 8th grade special ed class is required to spend their days doing all the same things the other 8th grade classes are doing, with the same materials. Just a smaller class size and an aide, to provide more individual attention. Except that these 8th graders can't read, and probably never will. They aren't learning practical living skills; they're spending their days immersed in incomprehensible academia. They used to learn how to garden, shop, cook, do laundry, etc.; those activities have been banned in favor of more time with the algebra text.

Who's willing to let the academic goals go for these kids, and teach them skills that will help them be partially self-sufficient as adults?

Who's willing to let the illiterate 12 year-old learn how to read simple little words and sentences, instead of demanding that he pass tests on whole novels?
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. sorry - this year is making me cranky.
(Not that I haven't been cranky for a while, but still...) I don't have a whole lot to add to your point about individual capabilities in children except to say that it seems as if we've swung to the other end of the range - i.e. from marooning special ed kids in the basement corner room to demanding that they do things they simply can't. I had a kid this summer who is blind as well as autistic. One of his IEP objectives was to color in the bounds of a drawing.

:freak:

I agree absolutely with your point, but we've just never been very clear-eyed as a country about what schools should teach.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
21. Yes
A thousand times yes
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
22. Yes.
Yes.

Yes.
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