I see it everywhere. People are living in their vehicles.

[chaska]

Maybe it's just the larger cities, I've only really noticed it in Seattle when I lived there, and in Los Angeles where I now live. Maybe because in those cities I was so close to totally screwed myself. But everywhere I look I see pickup camper and vans (they're a lot more visible when used for this purpose than cars) that are obviously being used as the primary residence.

Things are seriously effed in this society when people have to live in their vehicles.

Issues: Jobs, minimum wage, affordable housing (or lack thereof), credit checks prior to residency. Did I miss any?

Piss you off? Smack the hell out of a pug (and I don't mean the dog).

[bahrbearian]

1. Think what kind of impact that has on the people that really,

live on the streets, downward pressure.

[bullimiami]

2. i remember during reagan

there is a place off us1 where we used to go fishing.
for awhile there was a family living there out of the back of a pickup truck.
laid off auto worker from detroit. couldnt find work. at least in miami you can live outdoors all year without fear of freezing.

a family. father, mother, 2 little kids. Damn shame. Reagan is Ws hero that says volumes.

[TnDem]

3. How about personal responsibility?

Anyone can have a long run of bad luck, but I think some of those people probably have chronic lack of monetary discipline problems.

As a landlord and Democrat, I can tell you that credit and eviction checks before renting is a given. I wouldn't rent to anyone without doing one. I cannot be expected to provide housing for someone at a loss to me when that person is not willing to keep their credit and eviction history in some semblance of order.

If you cannot find a job in an area, then move. There are always jobs available, it's just that many people don't want something entry level when they are used to making much more. I understand and sympathize with this, however, sometimes you HAVE to take what you can get until something better comes along.

I am a firm believer that EVERYTHING that happens to a person is not the Republicans or the Democrats fault. Many times it's your OWN fault. Savings should be started early in life and people have GOT to start living within their means from the get-go and not allow themselves to become a car dweller. Instead of living in a beautiful home, live in a ,(gasp!), mobile home. Instead of driving a 1 year old car, drive a $1200 used Toyota.

Not popular, but should be the gospel.

[yorgatron]

4. so you think people are living in 1 year old cars?

wake up and smell the coffee bub.

[NMDemDist2]

61. I believe he's talking about living beyond your means in general

with no savings "for a rainy day" you end up on the streets

it is abysmal how many Americans live paycheck to paycheck, and I'm not talking about minimum wage earners, I'm talking about folks who make $60K + a year

[MatrixEscape]

5. You scare me.

Are you sure you are a Democrat? Gospel? Sounds like an ultra-Conservative ramble.

I don't see much understanding and sympathy in your response, even though you state you have it. Cold, hard, capitalistic! Landlords are often like that though.

[Deja Q]

71. As far as landlords go, mine is quite reasonable and friendly.

I have NEVER missed a payment or was ever late. While my credit rating isn't perfect, any landlord worth his salt should look at the whole thing, rather than the summary count. Each person's situation is different.

The only thing I know is, our society ain't Christian. It's more like Sodom and Gomorrah. And those cities were destroyed because its inhabitants were selfish, cruel, and greedy. Whoever wrote the King James Version (which is chock full of revisionist rubbish and the most inane attempts at censorship I've ever seen, Ezekiel 23 as I recall really does a doozy by replacing some hilarious x-rated dialog that even Michael Powell wouldn't like with mindless jargon of "issue") spun some words around and placed the blame on homosexuality. :eyes:

[Blue Wally]

105. Landlords rely on a steady stream of rent money

Because they have mortgages and the banks won't accept "my tenant is poor and can't pay" as an excuse to not pay the mortgage. My wilfe and I looked into buying some apartments, but after taking a look at all of the headaches involved, we decided to leave the money in CDs and the stock market.

[TnDem]

112. renting

Watch out, if you even breathe that you considered buying, (gasp), rental properties, you will be viewed as the great red-state Satan on here.

Renting is tough sometimes. It is hard to tell about people and if they will be a good tenant or not. I have had one couple completely ruin my carpet with a pitbull dog that they DIDN'T tell me about. They kicked some doors in when they left and it cost a few hundred dollars to fix, but I learned from it. I currently have two good renters. I cut one of them a pretty good break, ($200 a month), and his place is on 2.5 acres and has electric central heat and new carpet and paint. I don't make a lot on it after taxes and insurance, but it is giving him a hand up until he can do better.

Meth labs are something else that you have to really watch out for. So far, I have been lucky. There is good money to be made, but I am now developing another property as we speak that I will sell on "land contract" to a buyer for $30,000 at 9.5% interest with no credit check on a 20 year note. This will net us about $90,000 over the course of the note and we currently owe nothing on the property because it was bought for back taxes and the mobile home was purchased from a repo list for $3500. This will net us a steady income stream for two decades and the new buyer is responsible for maintenance and insurances. Since they will be working toward ownership instead of indefinite tenancy.

There is good money to be made. More than with a CD, but you have to lower the risks just as with anything else.

[Ysabel]

129. serves you right...

my fantasy: nice pitbull doggie bites property hound in ass...

edit - sorry my post seems slightly out of (post) order - i've not posted in a long while - my comment is addressed to the "landlord"...

[slor]

7. I wonder how many people you think...

could live in one of those classic cars that you restore?

[SammyWinstonJack]

9. Democrat huh?

:eyes:

[Karenina]

10. May you and your family

be granted the opportunity to live by your "wisdom."

[Mika]

12. Ever been down on your luck?

Ever had your savings stolen by Enron robber barons?

Ever gotten into debt for education, then can't get a job because they're being outsourced?

Ever had a serious disease in your immediate family when no insurance would cover it?

Or anything catastrophic?



I doubt it.



on edit: Oh yeah.. by the way.. Merry fucking Christmas.

:mad:

[Ruffhowse]

17. Nice compassion. The economic system as it is in this country is

guaranteed to eat some people alive. It's a pyramid structure, and most folks are at the very bottom just barely able to make ends meet. In that position, it is VERY easy to have your credit get all screwed up and to lose your job and your housing. Jobs are NOT that plentiful, regardless of the Republican propaganda machine. You sound like the kind of landlord that would kick someone out in the streets on Christmas Eve. Bah, Humbug!!!!!

[yella_dawg]

18. This will come as a shock, I'm sure,

but you may not have all the answers. In fact, your post is astonishingly small minded and mean.

I spent 18 years as a heavy equipment mechanic, the last seven as a supervisor. Back, knee, and other joint damage convinced me to change careers. In five years, I went from a GED to a Masters in Computer Science. With all the honors the department granted, and several from outside the department.

I signed away my interest in my home to a physically and mentally abusive wife with two payments left on the note. I worked two jobs almost my entire adult life to support a family, and later to recover from the financial impact of the divorce.

Unfortunately, I didn't quit the mechanic business soon enough. A failed back surgery five years ago left me almost completely disabled. Our so-called government outsourced my industry. The courts liquidated my savings ten years ago, and I hadn't built myself back up. Now I couch surf on the backs of my friends while I train myself for a third career.

A close friend lives in the back of a Mitsubishi SUV. Medical expenses for her arthritis and carpal tunnel cost her the home that was already in jeopardy after her husband's unexpected death at a young age destroyed her small business. She too is struggling to train herself for a new career that is within her impaired physical abilities.

The truth is, in these times, one stumble can take you out of the game. Your high and mighty morality doesn't account for those of us who took the shot and missed due to extraneous causes.

It's very easy to look at your fat bank account and congratulate yourself on the good job you did. But when you do, remember to thank me. I was lead designer on the last round of upgrades to the U2 spy plane that insures you sleep peacefully each night.



Wake up friend. You're fortunate, not special.

[Ladyhawk]

31. Amen.

I learned the hard way that misfortune can strike at any time. I'm in serious physical trouble after being in serious mental trouble.

Luckily, I have a place to stay. For now.

So many people I know are dealing with new disabilities...what is happening to the health of our people????

[lildreamer316]

32. Hey, yella_dawg...

..where are you located? Not to be nosy, just curious. ;)

[yella_dawg]

63. Texas

The state BFEE used as a proving ground for staging the takeover of the US.

[pa28]

47. Well. You have more company than you may think.

I won't reply to original post because of DU rules so I'm replying to yours because I thought it was well done.

In the Seattle area I see a surprising number of people living out of cars and vans. The worst part is the number of them who have children.

While "personal responsibility" is sometimes forgotten in pursuit of a lifestyle I often see that phrase used (by conservatives especially) as a convenient way to excuse their basic obligations as citizens. To see homeless children is a traumatic experience for anybody and I think the "personal responsibility" line may be just a crutch for those without the capacity to be troubled by such unpleasantness.

The really extraordinary thing about this is the number of people out there who are a paycheck or two from living on the street yet voted for Bush. Hard lessons are on the way for many and I think the phrase "personal responsibility" may take on a whole new meaning for many who think they have world by tail because they own a cheap rental house or have a job that pays $25 dollars an hour.

[China_cat]

19. Try being out of work for 2 years

and see what you have left in the way of savings...if you've been lucky enough to put any away in the first place (when you're making barely above minimum wage for less than 40 hours a week, savings is impossible if you want to live).

Yes, our credit is a mess. Everything we had went to keeping the house and the car (14 years old at that time) so that my husband could continue looking for work and I could have the meds I need at least when things were very bad.

He's working 2 jobs now and we're trying to pay people off. But you wouldn't accept us as tenants with our credit rating. And that number on a piece of paper isn't really going to tell you shit about what's happening with our finances or how hard we're working to dig out of the hole.

[Deja Q]

66. It's funny how a dose of reality can put many of those talking points down

It's all part of the "culture of life", I suppose.

[sportndandy]

20. I beg to differ

You may be a democrat, but you are very conservative. You give great advice for personal responsibility, but you put no stock in societal factors. You have fallen victim to one of the classic blunders: capital is free to move - labor is restricted. Capital moves to where the labor is cheapest, and that makes sense for capital. Labor is constrained by many factors which range from economic to personal. Face it, people don't want to move if it means changing the children's school; they may not be able to move if they are caring for a sick loved-one. It doesn't make sense for a society to disregard the labor that is displaced when capital moves. Who will buy the goods if no one is in position to earn enough to pay for them?
You may not like the idea, but capital DOES owe consideration to labor, and it is in capital's best interest to realize this and to foster a positive relationship. Maybe employers should be forced to put up a bond against future layoffs, or be penalized severly if they choose to move. Not popular, but necessary for a functioning society.
I'm not into the gospel. Are you SURE you are a democrat?

[mike_c]

21. yep, being poor is their own damned fault....

Giving them affordable housing only helps them breed, too. </sarcasm>

[theHandpuppet]

56. In Bush's Amerika of "compassionate conservatism" and "moral values"...

... they have managed to define poverty as a moral failing. That way when social programs are ripped out from under the feet of the poor, the disabled, the jobless, the needy and the hungry, the self-absorbed, self-congratulatory Bush voters can assuage their collective conscience by dismissing the plight of the poor as indicative of their lack of "personal responsibility". When the time comes (and it will be soon for many of the deluded) that they find themselves on the streets, it will be too late to cry foul.

'For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Matthew 25:42-45

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[genieroze]

120. Actually it's AmeriKKKa

[jdots]

101. What brought this on ?

As a geezer i have to jump in here. bear with me please
I lived in Cambridge Mass during the sixties when apartments were about 100-250$ a month depending on how funky an area you could deal with.Minimum wage was 2 $ an hour.Flash ahead 35 years or so,what is minimum wage and what would an apartment in Cambridge cost per month now ? do the math and it gets interesting Everything has gone up 10-15 times,everything
oh i forgot one thing minimum wage is it 20 -25$ an hour ?

[Ardee]

22. My goodness

I sincerely hope you never find out how close you yourself are to homelessness. Most Americans live one or two paychecks from such a scenario and you come off a bit too sanctimonious and smug. Im sure you are a nicer and more compassionate person than that post would indicate.

[TexasLady]

24. I happen to like my home, my fancy single wide

However, It depreciates, and costs as much as a house. But it was easier to get into because you dont need a big down payment. Plus my husband and I had an older model we were stuck with, and used it as a trade in. Gasp!? No, I am VERY glad we have a roof over our head.

My car is an 1984 Olds. His is a Sable circa 1986. OMG, you mean we could have picked a big ol fancy SUV to live in instead of these old thangs, in case we hit hard times? Golly. I could be homeless in style.

[noiretextatique]

26. it is gospel...bush says the same thing

if he can pull himself up by his bootstraps and squat in the white house with only a BA from yale and an MBA from harvard and a wealthy, privileged family...why can't everyone?!? if people are poor...it's there own damn fault...yessiree: that's our bush!

[grasswire]

27. Let me guess....

....I'll bet you call yourself a Christian, too. Right?

[m berst]

33. that is the gospel all right

That is a valid viewpoint and deserves a place in the political discussion, I think. It is hard core Republicanism - gospel as you say. That doesn't make it bad or wrong, but it is in complete opposition to the traditional position of the Democratic party in its premises, its observations, and its conclusions.

If you are a Republican, then God bless you and I wish you the best. I disagree with your position, but I respect it.

If you think you are a Democrat, I would consider thinking again.

[m berst]

35. self delete

posted to the wrong place

[lildreamer316]

34. Ok, ya'll! Let's try this angle:

I can see why you guys are so irritated with TnDem. I don't agree with his tone, either. But maybe he's talking about the trend that has been prominent for decades in this country..living on credit. My father and mother, children of the Depression, were adamant about teaching me to never use credit cards, or if you HAD to, to be very frugal about it; never buy a car you couldn't afford (when my mother bought a brand-new Buick in 1990, she hid it from my Dad for days!)etc. I am extremely lucky that now I am the beneficiary of two completely paid-for houses & 2 completely paid-off cars. I think the problem is that alot of ppl have to have the newest/best of everything...houses & cars especially. This is not true of most sensible ppl, but maybe alot of the ppl that he has had to deal with as a landlord. Don't flame me too bad; it's just another way of looking at it--and yes, I have lived off other people's couches before.

[TnDem]

64. Egg-sactly

Your observations are right on target lildreamer. I have a high school education. I had NO inheritance. I started with an $8 an hour job. I know what struggling is folks.

Living off of credit just to have all the nice things that their rich Republican neighbors have is one of the biggest problems in this country. I counsel my co-workers often and am often asked as some sort of a resident guru for working-mans-financial advice. The first advice I always give is LIVE WITHIN YOUR MEANS. Who cares what you drive as long as its dependable. I currently drive a 1980 Mazda GLC with 277,000 miles on it to work. It was given to me by a cousin. I drive it by choice, because I could give a DAMN about what everyone thinks about my transportation mode. I lived in a mobile home from 1989 till last year. That allowed my wife and I to scrimp and save till we could afford to buy another mobile home. We rented that one for enough to pay the payments on both. That allowed us to save a healthy down payment on a nice brick home. We then sold the first one and made enough on it to be able to buy another Repo mobile home for a fairly small cash sum to use as a rental. It nows pays our current house payment. I know what struggling is because I have done it by choice,( and sometimes not by choice). I recently had a surgery that required over $2000 out of pocket. Believe me, if I had no been somewhat financially prepared for it, it would have been EXTREMELY hard to pay. I had had a contingency for that sort of thing for years.

I knew my response would ire some of my colleagues who feel that the wealthy,(which I am most definitely NOT), somehow owe the rest of society the money that they sometimes worked extremely hard for. I do not feel that way. I think if more people were willing to live within their means from day one, accept responsibility for their bad financial decisions, and vow to change their mode of thinking into one similar to what I have outlined above, then we would have far less folks living in cars.

Flame away.

[lectrobyte]

38. Where are the jobs? What do you say to the computer/telecom

expert, layed off in their 40's with an M.S., a mortgage almost paid off, working 2 or 3 part time jobs who finds out their spouse was diagnosed with cancer? Sell your house to pay the medial bills until that money runs out and you declare bankruptancy? Don't even think about the kids going to college, or retirement, because you'll "own" that too... I guess India's hiring, but I hear it's pretty tough to emigrate, they are full already. Maybe that's too hypethetical, but I have a friend in almost that exact spot. Maybe a simpler question, what would you suggest a field of study for a bright young high school graduate of modest means? Assuming they didn't inherit a bunch of real estate or somethng.

[TnDem]

68. What I'd say...

Where are the jobs? What do you say to the computer/telecom expert, layed off in their 40's with an M.S., a mortgage almost paid off, working 2 or 3 part time jobs who finds out their spouse was diagnosed with cancer?

What would I say?..Let me start by saying that coming from someone with a high school education and who lived in a mobile home for 10+ years, that above mentioned person should be WAAYY ahead of me financially.

If I had a Master's I would have been teaching school somewhere and already have insurance through the school system. That way when the cancer hit, they would have picked up the tab for 80+ percent of it,(depending on your plan). This should have already been contemplated. Jobs as Correctional Counselors with your state Dept. of Correction or Children's Services are another option because states usually do not require specific degrees in anything to be hired for these types of jobs. Age is irrelevant as well. A friend of mine was recently hired as a parole officer. He had a degree in Fine Arts, but since it was from an accredited school, that was all the required. A MS in computer science with a teaching certificate would be all that is required to teach high school almost anywhere in the US. Again, in your scenario, poor financial choices were made here from way back it sounds like.

As far as kids going to college, whatever happened to them getting a J-O-B to pay for it? Grants, Loans and scholarships are also there for the truly needy as well as the kids that truly excel in school.

Retirement? Again, an IRA started early in life with even a very minimal weekly deposit would have been nice. That above mentioned job with the school system would have had a decent 401K. Sounds like more poor financial choices.

This is what I would do if I had a college degree,(which I do not). The greedy always seem to want to pursue a fabulous paying job as a "programmer de jour" with a poor long term outlook and no stability instead of a nice cushy Govt. job with good long term benefits that pays less but is stable as bedrock. Plus it allows more free time to be able to pursue other interests.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

75. So now you're blaming the victim for a wrong career choice

I've never seen such an un-Christian and judgemental attitude. You have a lot to learn about compassion. Back in the 80s and 90s, the "programmer du jour" didn't realize that their jobs would be outsourced. There are whole college programs dedicated to technology, especially in the Northeast and NoCal. Technology and finance are the biggest employers up here, and after 9/11, had the biggest reduction in workforce.

Nice, cushy government job? what bullshit. Government jobs in Mass. do not pay cost of living increases, and given that the average house in this state is 450K, do you think the average 35K per year salary that a government worker makes can afford even a parking spot here?

Massachusetts has affordable housing programs, and a lot of cops, teachers and firefighters take advantage of them. So please forgive those of us mere mortals who don't have your prescience to move into a double wide. Because land is at a premium up here, we have very few trailer parks, so people who are homeless are pretty much fucked.

And I REALLY doubt you are a Democrat-but probably one of those pseudo Christians. :eyes:

[datasuspect]

84. not to mention

that throughout the 80s and 90s the long range outlook for the tech sector was very rosy through the middle of this century.

[TnDem]

87. The Tech sector

I don't care how rosy the current fad careers are, no job even comes close to the stability, retirement and insurance/benefits that Fed/State government jobs do...

A little less salary, but a job for life...and good insurance and retirement.

[TnDem]

86. Mass.

Then do like all of my neighbors who lived in shitholes like Mass and NJ...Move to the great state of Tennessee. I am originally from MD...great Democratic state, but taxes through the roof and can't afford a postage stamp to live on.

A reasonable sized 3 bedroom home on an acre or so is app. $70,000 here where I live in Tennessee. That is affordable to nearly everyone who is RESPONSIBLE with their finances. Unemployment is around 5%. Jobs are there for people who want to work.

I wouldn't move back to MD for double my current wage.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

103. Mass. is 40th in tax burden

and sorry, you couldn't pay me enough money to move where callous pseudo-Christian attitudes like your abound. many people have family and a social safety net up here. It costs money to move and get settled. You are making a MORAL judgement about the poor's ability to adjust to the economy. And not all poor are in debt.

[TnDem]

114. Taxes

Actually, Mass. is 36th in tax burden. Go here:

http://www.retirementliving.com/RLtaxburdens.html

The problem with most NE states is that it doesn't tell the whole story. The general high cost of living from many other sources, (housing, heating, etc..), adds exponentially to an already higher tax burden. Mass is world reknowned for high taxes and living.'

By the way, my state, (Tennessee), is 47th in tax burden with no state income tax on wages. That's why people are FLOCKING to places like Fairfield Glade retirement community where they can buy a MANSION on the lake for $200K after they sold their crackerbox dump in Mass. for $300k AND THEY POCKET THE OTHER 100k.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

126. who the hell wants to live in TN?

With natives like you rolling out the welcome wagon, I would turn and run the other way. At least we're civilized up here. There's a bill in the state legislature to provide universal healthcare for all Mass. residents. Massachusetts has the best public schools, the largest percentage of college graduates, the lowest divorce rate, the lowest rate of teenage pregnancy, and the second lowest abortion rate. Mass. is also a pro-labor state and one of the best states for women. We also have the lowest incidence of gun violence.

Why the hell would anyone move?

[NuttyFluffers]

102. sounds like you don't live in a highly urban area.

those options you espouse are quite a pretty find here. there was a hiring freeze on all state/county/city gov't work in my area for over a year. the area is still recovering. the back-up is tremendous. and how to survive that year? on hope and dreams and plum luck? people were starting their careers out of college and high school, with no real $$ cushion to fall back on. was it their fault they weren't aggregating real $ to weather bad periods because they were just starting? or is it just bad financial planning on their part -- should they have been working on such planning from childhood, birth, womb? tell me i'm curious when they should've start saving for all contingencies.

just go get a teaching job? you've got to be kidding me. do you know how hard it is to get a good higher education teaching job? do you know how unbelievably underpaid primary and high school is? do you know how many licenses, tests, and other hurdles are needed to get in?

oh wait. i know. just get up and move to a less urban area? is that the answer? live among your means and just pick up and move? wow. with what contacts, with what capital, with what job, with what residence? yeah, if only things were so easy. one time they may have been, they are not now. there is no living wage in america. there is no magical upward mobility opportunity in the heartland, they are being hurt pretty bad, just as urban areas. and the worst part is once you are stuck in a poorer community it is harder to escape when things get real bad (and i already see it coming down the pike).

no concept of labor being a human entity. labor is a complex factor because it involves people and all their varied permutations. they aren't pawns on a chess board, they are real people, with real stories that doesn't easily bend to the whims of jingoistic simplistic advice. should people be more sensible with their money? yes. is that the end all and be all of this issue? not even wetting the hem. there's real issues out there tearing america apart and throwing out self-righteous platitudes as if they are *the reality* (unlike those troublesome false ones :eyes:) does no one any good, except for a good laugh.

please, can't you do better than this?

[TnDem]

111. absolutely NOT

If you have a legitimate Master's in Science from an accredited institution, ans you don't have a job, then it is for one reason or another, your own damn fault...Period.

You say, "...do you know how unbelievably underpaid primary and high school is? do you know how many licenses, tests, and other hurdles are needed to get in?..." NOW we are getting at the facts of the matter. UNDERPAID=FORGET ABOUT WORKING, IT ISN'T WORTH IT right? In my area, elementary/high school teachers start at about $30,000 a year which is a GOOD living for the area. If I had absolutely NO money, then I would scrounge enough for a surplus school bus,(less than $1000 many times. I just sold three of them I got from a state auction). I would live in the school bus in a campground for a year and bankroll every dime I could afford to while working as a teacher or a correctional counselor or social worker. There are prisons located ALL over the country. There is probably one close to you that is hiring and may need someone. There are NO certificates required for those counselors and they start in my state in the $25,000 range which is a good wage considering there is no state income tax and a nice 3 bedroom home will cost you $70,000 or so. They key here is that it may not be the exact job you'd LIKE, but it would be some money coming in and a way to get started again. Your philosophy seems to be that if it doesn't pay enough to be right back to where you were, then it's not worth doing at all. So then people sit on these forums with Master's and other graduate degrees and cry. If I had a Masters in anything, I would have a decent job here within three weeks, (with NO connections). Now that job might be something you are not willing to do, but when you can get past that, you are now on your way.

I ate pork and beans for a year while saving nearly my entire factory paycheck for a down payment on my first mobile home. I remember that it was like a castle to me. I lived there for nearly a decade and it served as a launching pad for our next regular home. I have no college degree but I TRY to work hard and work smart. Is is easy? No it would not be easy, especially initially getting started. I can guarantee you though that in a year or two, you would look back and say, "boy am I glad I left that shit hole I used to call home". I would set up interviews at the above-mentioned places BEFORE I moved via the internet and have a job waiting on me. State governments are usually always hiring for many positions and this would also provide instant insurance for you and your family.

[Blue_Tires]

116. "If I had a Masters in anything, I would have a decent job here..."

"within three weeks, (with NO connections)."

BFS...I have a master's and am currently looking for a (new) job...please tell me which TN county/city you live in so i can concentrate my search there...LOL...TN must be heaven on earth

[TnDem]

123. OK then....

This will depend on if you are PARTICULAR about which jobs you do. If you don't mind working in a counselor type position in the Correctional field as a parole Officer, then here's one with some vacancies in Shelby and Davidson counties:

http://www.ja.state.tn.us/personnel/JobSearch/CountyVacancies.jsp?cde=78142

or here in the department of "Labor and Workforce Devlpmnt":

http://www.ja.state.tn.us/personnel/JobSearch/CountyVacancies.jsp?cde=73122

or here as Correctional Counselor:

http://www.ja.state.tn.us/personnel/JobSearch/CountyVacancies.jsp?cde=78132

or here as a "Analyst 3" in various state agencies in Davidson county:

http://www.ja.state.tn.us/personnel/JobSearch/CountyVacancies.jsp?cde=75533

or here as an "Information Resource Specialist 2" in Davidson Co:

http://www.ja.state.tn.us/personnel/JobSearch/CountyVacancies.jsp?cde=75551


or a "social worker 2" in Davidson Co:

http://www.ja.state.tn.us/personnel/JobSearch/CountyVacancies.jsp?cde=79612



Bottom line...Search the site. It has tons of good jobs available with state benefits especially in the Davidson Co., (Nashville), area in all departments. It includes retirement with a 5 year vestment, BCBS insurance, 13 paid holidays, annual time, sick time and many other perks. You won't make a fortune, but then again, it doesn't cost a fortune to live here. Remember, no state income tax and low property taxes in most outer counties.

If I were you and were seriously interested in one of these jobs,(or another one), I would put the word out on this forum for someone involved with the state Dem. party. We have a Democratic governor, so it shouldn't be a problem. See if they will send you a quick letter of recommendation to get you name close to the top. What about a support position with a Tennessee university? There are probably hundreds of those positions scattered across the state at the various 4 year and community colleges. What about adjunct faculty at a Community college? That usually pays well for part time and will get your foot in the door. They are always hiring for that.

Just some suggestions. Hope it helps.

[serryjw]

40. Here starts the flame war!

Sorry, but this is not liberal. When you make a living wage($10/hr) your credit is as good as your job. When one goes so does the other.I played that stupid $1200/Toyota game. EVERY month I spent $300++ on something that went wrong with the car.I never had the opportunity to SAVE for a better car. I wore the same running shoes for 4 YEARS!Did not see a dentist for a decade!When your health goes its tough to get back on your feet.

My mortgage holder ( 12 years ag0) was MORE understanding then you. When he pulled a credit report (bank foreclosure) for my loan he called me for an explanation. I asked him do I get "brownie points" for PAYING back my debt? he said 'yes" and approved the loan!

[TnDem]

74. OK, lets compare...

I currently make $10.15 an hour. My wife makes about the same. We have a house payment which is paid by rent from another mobile home that we managed to fix up nicely and rent. I used buddy labor and remnant carpet and it looks like new. I rent it to a friend for $200 a month to help him out.

I started with NOTHING. Jack, squat... I now have a decent brick home, two rental properties and working on a third. We have a used but quite nice 1970's era L82 Corvette that was purchased for $6000 cash in the garage. We have a 1970 Olds Cutlass we restored and painted also in the garage. My wife has a 1997 Geo metro that she drives. It was purchased from an insurance auction with minor damage. I got it cheap and replaced a fender and it looks like new. She drives it everyday. I drive a 1980 Mazda with 277,000 miles to work by CHOICE. I change the oil and tires and have driven it for the last 7 years. It was given to me for FREE by a second cousin who graduated from college. My wife and I have everything we want, but it was not done overnight. It took a LOT of work, a LOT of scrimping but we made it OK. Anyone can do it if they are willing to work hard and smart, stop blaming a political party and accept responsibility for their own poor financial choices. Many times a person's PRIDE will not allow them to drive an older car for fear of what people will think of them. That is truly sad. I don't give a tinker's damn what people think of my work car. Also, people sometimes say that a car like my Mazda is "prone to break down" or somesuch BS. They think that way many times to allow their pride to blind their better instincts into buying a new car "for safety" when really it is for the fact that they want to LOOK LIKE they are keeping up with their snooty Republican neighbors. I say, to Hell with them.

Your last paragraph says it all too. If you paid the loan back, then I would have approved you as well. that shows me ethics and responsibility. I have a current renter that went through a horrendous divorce, he has bad credit and a bankruptcy. I investigated the story and approved him anyway. He is one of the best renters I have ever had.

RESPONSIBILITY is the key here.

[m berst]

77. a common story

Tens of thousands are doing exactly what you and your wife have done. You are very fortunate because you have been living very close to the edge and what you have could come crashing down at any moment.

A couple of points if I may -

First, I would guess that you are a member of a supportive family and are in a supportive community. That is a good thing if true, and I congratulate you on your good fortune. My experience has been that the living is to some extent easier in rural communities, particularly in the South, because opportunities to make connections and find bargains and deals can be easier than they are in the big northern cities. Consider yourself blessed.

Secondly, I would say that your experience is not so unusual as you think it to be, and it is in fact quite common. What is not common, however, is the self-righteous and judgemental attitude that you are displaying, and that is what many here are reacting to.

Remember, pride comes before a fall. Should catastrophe enter your life, I hope that the people around you don't share your attitudes.

I lived in a rural community until recently, and people were amazingly supportive, the opportunities were many for a person not afraid to work or fussy about what they did and who was willing to live frugally. Unfortunately word got around that I was involved in left wing politics, and that all changed overnight. Others, through illness or other misfortune that have nothing to do with the clever ethic you have outlined for us, have similarly fallen through the cracks. Pray that you don't.

[TnDem]

90. sanctimony

I am NOT judgmental and I am not proud. I have NO supporting family. an elderly mother who sold her small crackerbox home in MD and bought a modest 3 Bdrm house here in the Tennessee city that I live in. Making deals and connections comes from using information wisely and attempting to be smarter than the average bear. I buy repo mobile homes for pennies on the dollar. Anyone can. I bought a insurance sale vehicle for my wife to drive to work. Anyone can. All of these options are open to anyone that is willing and ready to look beyond the dealer lots.

I am merely letting people on this forum know that alternatives exist for people willing to work, relocate and start fresh. We did it and it was the best move we ever made. Why do you think the south is GAINING electoral votes every time and the northern states are losing? It's because of people like me who get sick of yearning for $300,000-$400,000 homes that we would NEVER be able to afford. That same EXACT house where I live now would be less than $200K. Not only that, the crime is low here, no state income tax, and property taxes of less than $400 a year TOTAL on a nice 3 bedroom brick house on 2 and 1/2 acres.

You couldn't GIVE me MD back.

[m berst]

93. you make a good point

And certainly for a resourceful and clever person there is always a way to make a living. I have done that for much of my life. And, no doubt, as you point out, there are many people living on credit and reaching for a life beyond their means.

You are bringing 3 or 4 different issues together here and cooking them into a generalized statement that you say applies to everyone. They happen to have found happy congruence in your life, and that is fine and there is much to be admired in your story.

However, while this approach to life is working for you, it is not the only way and it is not correct to describe everyone who does not, or cannot, embrace your approach as somehow lacking in character or as wrong. No doubt, were you to fail in your scenario then it would be in your case a moral failing by your own self-imposed expectations and standards. That doesn't mean that this would be so for everyone.

It is easy to use your own experience as the model as though it had universal significance, apply it in all cases, and then assess each person's problems with that handy template. It fails as a template, however, when it tries to answer why there are more failing today than there were in the past.

There is nothing wrong with your story and I find much in it to admire. As a Yankee who has traveled extensively in the South, I have a feel for the get-it-done make-do ethic of frugality and hard work that is not so common in the North, so I know what you are talking about. There is also much more tolerance and support for that approach to life in the South than there is in the North, and I suspect that is part of the reason that you are living where you are now.

You err when you try to develop universally applicable standards from your personal experience. There are many talented people who have a calling, and I for one do not want to see all of our people forced (I know for you it is not a matter of being forced) into looking for ways to scratch for a dollar rather than give society the benefits of their talents. Nothing wrong with dealing in used motor homes, and doing it well, but we cannot build a strong society on that alone. I don't want our writers, our teachers, our scientists and our artists spending their time trying to figure out how to turn a buck on the black market, or its legalized equivalent.

While there are always people with your gifts and talents who can figure out ways to survive in any kind of environment, but there are also people who just don't have the kind of resourcefulness that you are blessed with. In your model, those people would be superfluous, and it would be their own fault if they were cast aside.

Offer the lessons from your experience to people here in the form of survival tips from one who is a master at it and you will get a good response and have the added benefit of contributing something intangible of value back to the community. Offer it as broad universal truth about the way things are if only other people were bright enough to see things the way that you do - which I think you did - and people get their hackles up.

Football fan by any chance? That one fake double reverse play by the Vols against Auburn that went for 70 yards was the most beautifully executed play I have ever seen.

[knight_of_the_star]

98. For the record

Try living in California. The reason we have our housing prices jumping through the ceiling is NOT because of bad spending or any such thing, it is because you have what could simply be distilled as supply and demand ON CRACK. You have people wanting to move to prime real estate in large numbers driving up the prices of said real estate due to low supply and high demand. The good jobs have the same situation, forcing people into jobs that can't pay for the housing. It has little to do with that kind of thing, for one.

For two, I LIKE the idea of living in the state in the Union that has the MOST pro-labour laws in the country, not to mention being one of the few, the proud places that resisted the red tide of November 2004. I wouldn't want to move to a state that went solidly for Bush with the state gov't going the same way, there are some people in that part of the country who would consider me firewood, thank you.

[JNelson6563]

107. Ok, enough broad brush on the north

Hi, I'm in northern Michigan and I have to say that your experience in the north doesn't apply to all of the north. While I agree with you to a degree that people have to learn to live within their means, one doesn't have to move south to do it.

The key here is rural/urban areas. I live in a smaller city that is surrounded by rural land. Lots of farming up here. I look at real estate in the urban areas south of here but still in Michigan and I wonder how people do it. See what $150,000 buys you in the Detroit suburbs and compare it to the Traverse City region.

It's not so much a north/south thing as it is urban/rural IMO.

Julie

[serryjw]

78. Not always easy

There is TWO of you, and ONE of me. NOW what would happen IF there was ONE of you, didn't work for over 7 years due to illness and was $100,000 in the hole from medical bills and had 50% the earning capacity due to illness for the future?
When you make $15K yearly there is very little you can do to improve yourself for the future. I have accepted a dozen well paying jobs in the last 5 years. Within one month my bad health catches up and I am either fired or quit. I simply can't work full time no matter how much I want to. At 54 do you not think I am not frightened knowing this is as good as it will ever be? I have no safety net and have no way to make one.......there are millions of me in this country, don't be so judgmental.

[TnDem]

88. your situation

I am NOT judgemental and I am truly sorry for your situation. If I knew you personally, you were a friend and lived nearby and you were willing to do part of what was required, I am sure that I would help you all I could.

What about SSI/SSDI? Surely there are some pro-bono attornies on this forum that would help you out and get the paperwork fast-tracked?

[serryjw]

92. What never consider it........

nor am I qualified......How do you live on $450/monthly on SSI? The point I was making is there are millions of me. The other point is what would you do with a $100,000 medical bill and not able to work for years? Until you walk in someone's moccosins don't assume you have a clue what is happening. IF you met me you would have no idea. I am a 12 year Breast Cancer survivor which left me with arthritis that I can't move most days.
I have a cute 1 bedroom, walk or take the bus to work and manage ok. BUT The county hospital pays all my medical bills. How could I ever pay $5000 annually on $15K income?

[datasuspect]

82. that's weird

businesses go bankrupt all the time.

do they not have ethics and responsibilities? are they exempt while the average person who has to apply morality to financial transactions (businesses don't do that)?

there is a lot of money in bankruptcy, bad credit, and foreclosure.

companies scoop up receivables for pennies on the dollar, but there isn't this hue and cry to condemn businesses as immoral because they don't pay their bills.

they can run through retirement funds like a crack addict on a binge, but where is the condemnation of that?

it's just a tactic to keep the working class chewing at themselves and each other.

[Blue Wally]

108. If a corporation goes bankrupt

If the coprproation settles its debts and moves forward, the owners either lose the corporation entirely or end up owning a much smaller piece of the corporation. If a corporation goes so bankrupt that it must be liquidated, the corporation ceases to exist (it is killed by the bankruptcy courts).

[datasuspect]

117. but my point is

there is no morality attached to this, but the same situation where it concerns a person has an excessive moral judgment attached to it.

[LeftyMom]

85. deleted

LeftyKid hit post for me while I ran to the other room for a moment. I'm going to take that as my hint. ;)

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TnDem]

76. Never been there

And if you only knew how active I was in my local party here in Tennessee, you would eat those words.

I am a conservative southern Democrat and always will be.

[kurtyboy]

79. So, uh, who'd you vote for?

Conservative Dems all over the South went for Bush, if the press is to be believed---Were you one of them?

See, I think that the idea of "personal responsibility" ought to apply, alright. But do you understand that as a homeowner, you get one of the biggest tax-breaks yet remaining for the middle class? Are you personally responsible for the break the rest of the taxpayers in this country grant to you? Why are you entitled to that? Would you have accomplished as much without that little break, or would you simply work for a few more years?

I don't know, I'm only saying that you are getting breaks that have nothing to do with your work ethic. Why can't we extend a few small breaks to those people living in a car somewhere?

By the way, some of them do get breaks, albeit microscopic ones. I went to a local river where all sorts of people were pulling out salmon. One guy took a fish over his limit, and the law-abiding folks were pretty upset. After the Game Warden was summoned (I think someone must have used a cell-phone) he arrived and surveyed the situation. The fellow who took the fish didn't speak very good English and was very clearly living in his pickup/camper (very old, newspapers insulating the windows). The Warden talked to him very quietly off to the side and then announced to every fisher at the river:

"I'm coming back in fifteen minutes and I'm going to check every punchcard, every piece of gear, every barb on every hook, and every license. You better be legal by then, or you better be gone."

The fellow with the camper drove away without a ticket, and even a few of the fishers who were grumbling about "the regulations" got lost before the warden returned. He still wrote a couple of tickets, though....

[TnDem]

89. Voted for

Kerry of course...

And as far as a mortgage income deduction, no, I am not eligible because I don't have enough to itemize. I get no federal income tax breaks except what other people on this forum get. Tenneessee has NO income tax, my property tax on my home is $325 a YEAR. No "personal property" tax and no extra hidden taxes. There are no emission testing stations., It is a GREAT place to live for somewhat on a low to modest income. My town has great services, 5% unemployment rate and friendly people. The highways are some of the best in the nation. I love it.

I would have done the EXACT same thing the game warden did.

[SharonAnn]

115. And most of us pay 9.75% sales tax on EVERYTHING! Food too.

This is great for the low-income people who are trying to get by on inadequate pay when they have to pay nearly 10% sales tax to eat.

[TnDem]

124. Sure, but that's the ONLY tax....

...that is the only tax and most low income people it doesn't affect because they are on some form of subsidy or food stamp program. We still have the 47th lowest tax burden in the nation and you cannot argue with that. NO state income tax is a biggie. The only killer for this state in Tenncare whih is the state's version of medicaid. That is draining the state and will have to be revamped or reverted to medicaid. Other than that, the state is fairly flush.

[Forkboy]

48. Typical clueless blather

Democrat my fucking ass :puke:

[Jose Diablo]

50. YessireeBob, a very compassionate post

It brings tears to my eyes to know that within this world there are such sympathetic people such as yourself.

You know, it makes me want to rent one of your properties and then strip and sell all the metal from within. Take the hot water heater and furnace to the dump, all the sheet metal too. Then knock out all the plaster board in the walls and ceilings. Then use a sawall to cut-out every other wall support.

Maybe my friends can help and rent each and every property you own and do this all at once. Wouldn't that be fun?

Then you can prove to all once again how you got where you are on your own "monetary discipline". You can rebuild and pull yourself back-up on you own. I wonder, did you use accelerated depreciation on your investment property to minimize your tax burden?

Too bad about your antique auto collection though. You do have them insured I hope.

Yep, you are one that is truly deserving of very special consideration.

[LibertyorDeath]

52. Is that you Ebenezer come to share the Joy of the Season

Your empathy is truly heart warming.

You sure Sound like a Fucking Landlord

[noiretextatique]

53. being out of work tends to fuck up your credit

and if you have no money (because you aren't working and have no credit), moving somewhere else may not be an option. i had to revistit this thread after seeing another post in another thread proclaiming how grateful americans should be for living in poverty here vs. a third world country. you remind me of many people i know...and especially two who commited suicide. one was a college athlete who couldn't make it into the pros, and the other was an attorney who lost her practice and her mind. both of them were fairly privileged all their lives, and both had worked hard to acheieve their goals. however, neither of them were used to having to struggle for anything, so when their relatively charmed lives disappeared, they couldn't handle it, so they killed themselves. i often wonder if other privileged people i know, when faced with the loss of their dream, would do the same. there are simply no guarantees in this life. even in your situation, a catastophic illness or a change in the real estate market could spell disaster for you. i wonder if you would understand the plight of those less fortunate than yourself then, of if you would give in to despair, the way those two people i knew did. you are not special, nor are you especially smart: you are lucky, so far. i think your attitude has a lot to do with the fact that you don't know how lucky you are. you should remember this: that could change in an instant. you aren't immune from illness or accident or from other cirsumstances beyond your control...perhaps one day you wil be forced to realize that.

[shrike]

57. amen

I learned that lesson myself, 10 years ago.

I was LUCKY -- I came from a middle class background, was born to two people who believed that women should go to college, and had a skill, or talent if you will, that I'd been born with and had honed over the years. Those factors rescued me from what might have been homelessness.

I have never forgotten that experience and always remember: just how easy it is to fall through the cracks. Like the old song goes: "In a New York minute, everything can change."

[datasuspect]

55. kinda hard to be "personally responsible"

when it takes three weeks of pay to make rent 2/3).

especially when thirty-five years ago it one week of pay (1/4)

[norml]

59. Many find jobs in areas in which they can't afford to live.

You can see this in cities such as Aspen,where the workers camp out in their vans parked down the road.

[Deja Q]

65. I looked at the paper and talked with employment counselors...

There ARE NO JOBS.

That's spelled "N-O J-O-B-S".

And when my time comes, I will try to find something until better comes along. However, while you're on your pedastal, explain to me those personality profile tests that discriminate against hard working people such as myself because we have an emotional disorder? (I have PTSD and GAD, both interrelated of course) I couldn't get a job in the only expanding field right now. And that field is RETAIL.

I'm dead without my job.

I'm a hard worker, a smart worker, a damn good worker.

what if "living within their means" is nonexistent because there just isn't enough income coming in to compensate for the necessities?

Oh, one last thing, it's the fault of corporate america's offshoring and the general issue of putting profit over people and everyone who backs them (which is primarily a repub thing but many 'Dems' do it too). (And all of this would lead into a much longer topic that would obliterate your draconian point of view, but I'm too fatigued right now.)

[datasuspect]

95. retail is pretty much closed

to people with any significant professional work history.

i tried to get a job at walgreen's. they said they could guarantee me 15 hours per week, but not to expect more than 20 hours per week during the first six months.

oh, and this was at $7/hour.

never got my second interview. had to list some job history (omitted significant portions) and they were more concerned with how long i would stay there and would i stay if i found something better and if i was actively looking for something better.

never did get that call back for the 2nd interview.

these have been my results with EVERY retail job i have sought.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

69. The lack of compassion in your post is astonishing...

for a self-professed "Democrat".

"If you cannot find a job in an area, then move." Wow. That's just completely ridiculous, I'm having a hard time finding the words. Consider this: if you cannot find a job in an area, do you realize how much money it would cost to "move"? If the person is unemployed, they're going to have to save their money as much as possible, and simply cannot take a risk by moving to another area.


The whole "personal responsibility" speech is more a mantra of the republicans, and your blanket statements that all these people are simply not "living within their means from the get-go" is completely ridiculous.

[datasuspect]

96. i thought that was pretty heartless too

i've been staying with relatives in texas (i was homeless in chicago and had nowhere else to go) and have remained consistently unemployed here. this is a semi-rural to rural area and you need a car (which i do not have) to get anywhere.

so i walk or hustle rides. but this is not reliable or safe(during extreme heat or inclement weather or when people aren't available or having to negotiate walking down limited access highways with 70 - 90 mph traffic whizzing by).

anyway, i'm contemplating moving back to chicago (haven't been able to really contribute financially here) and am dead broke.

barring some miracle i more than likely have to hitchhike out of here.

some of us do have support networks, but almost EVERYONE i know is broke or barely getting by. so again, it's that NO MONEY thing.

everything i own i can fit in two bags (initial rounds of liquidation happened after 9-11).

i'm kinda lucky though, i have no children or wife, so i'm the only one who has to endure the privation, still, it is nerve-wracking, especially when you get so hopeless that shit just doesn't make a difference anymore. i mean, what could it really hurt to just thumb it and become a homeless drifter . . . lots of men did that in the 30s i guess.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[datasuspect]

113. this is someone else's computer

and yes, everything i own fits in two bags. and a relative lets me use the computer and when i was homeless in chicago, i used the computers at the public library.

and please spare me the personal responsibility crap.

i've applied/sent out more resumes than you can possibly imagine.

but i guess what i am going through doesn't fit your worldview so i MUST be deficient in some way.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

97. I used to think like TNDem ("No one needs to be poor")

until I came out of school into the Reagan recession, where Minneapolis had 11% reported unemployment, which means that the real rate was much higher.

I was signed up with three temporary agencies and got jobs usually 3 or 4 times a week. That was with me getting up at 6AM every day and calling the agencies to nag them.

I applied for regular jobs, like a sales job at a bookstore, eight hours a week, minimum wage. There were 200 applicants, including people with library science degrees.

I took any job the temp agencies offered: hospital laundry, grimy industrial work, assembly work, mindless data entry, whatever there was. I signed up for Christmas work at Penney's, but like everyone else, I was scheduled for no more than 20 hours a week and was terminated a week after Christmas. I made about $500 a month in a good month, $300 in a bad month. (That was 1982).

I got a part-time teaching job the following year and made $350 month during the school year, nothing in the summer. During the summer, I went back to the temp agencies.

I would have been homeless if my family hadn't helped me a lot.

In the summer of 1984 I finally got a full-time teaching job. But the three years--that's three years, TNDem--between leaving school and getting a real job were some of the most educational of my life.

If you think that people who are poor deserve it somehow, that's a defense mechanism. Deep down, you know you're on the edge, and by despising the poor, you convince yourself that you really have nothing in common with them and that it could never happen to you. Famous last words.

[msgadget]

100. You're absolutely right

but everyone who tries doesn't succeed even if they don't live beyond their means. Wages are down and illegal labor is keeping it there. A lot of full-time workers don't make enough to pay their bills. That's a fact. OTOH, I'll bet you've heard some piss-poor excuses and had considerable expense due to dead-beats who thought rent was an option. I agree that every single thing that's wrong is NOT the fault of the current administration but, historically, citizens blame the guy in the WH when they're having a hard time financially.

[LWolf]

106. Let me follow this logic here.

BTW, I'm a firm believer in both personal and social responsibility.

When I was a young mother with young children, working full time to support them, we should not have ended up homeless, hungry, or without heat or water or electricity, because I worked and spent every dime after childcare on shelter and food. And if I didn't make enough money to rent safe shelter, that was my own fault.

When I had a job, a steady income, and couldn't find anyone to rent to me, or any place to rent that left some money to buy groceries, that was my own fault.

When I lived with my sons for a couple of months in tents in campgrounds, moving every week, because it was better than sleeping in the car on the street, that was my own fault.

When I worked two jobs to pay the rent in a place that crawled with roaches, had no heat, and we had to be inside and locked up before dark, and learn to lay on the floor whenever the locals started fighting, that was my fault.

Because an honest day's work isn't worth the cost of living, and if you didn't have a way to pay for post-high school job training, it's your own fault.

[bobbyboucher]

127. You're whole story and everything in it is

bullshit. Way too many Ruse Limpdick talking points for my taste. Sorry, but you are full of it, pal.

[mhr]

128. Unemployed 54 Months - Over 2,500 Resumes Out The Door

CV Includes:
BSEE,
MBA,
15+ Years of professional work experience,
Commercial pilot,
Honorably discharged naval officer.

I guess in your world you would say that I was just not responsible enough. My history proves I have done everything society has asked of me to no avail.

Consider the following chart from the Dallas Federal Reserve showing total employment in TX. To date Dallas (my home) has fewer people working than at the beginning of 2000!

[haele]

6. There's a family that lives in a 27 ft camper nearby

Two rather tired looking adults, two kids, and a dog. At least one of the couple works (the other seems to be in poor health); there's a beater that's parked near the camper on some sort of 12 hr work schedule. Every couple days, they have to move where they park; sometimes in one of the lake parking lots, sometimes in the lot of the local indie grocer who's lot also supports a recycling center, sometimes on the street. The local sheriffs check on them regularly; they don't seem to be hostile to the family, but they are checking that the kids are in school and otherwise good order and there's no overt illegality going on. After all, they're more or less breaking the law by just being homeless with kids...
Apparently, they've got some friends in a nearby complex that are letting them use that address as a phone/mail drop.

I've also lived in my then-vehicle (a van set up for camping) for a short time while transitioning into BAQ while in the military back in the eighties. So long as there's some money coming in and access to laundry/washing facilities, it's not that bad for a week or so as a transition - but I could never see doing in for any long period of time or especially with a family in tow.

And there really is no excuse for being forced to live on the streets when one is not in some sort of a short-term transition. If you are working any sort of job, you should be able to afford a roof over your family's head and at least two meals a day after the first couple paychecks if you're starting out with nothing.

Haele

[Chicago Democrat]

14. Lots of homeless families and people...

Its the worst in the winter; that kills.

Every single city in the USA should provide temporary shelter on demand. The government could do alot more making affordable housing available.

[Blue Wally]

109. I agree that the government should make sure that everyone has shelter

But why does that shelter have to be on very expensive urban land?? Why can't we get soemthing going like the CCC of the depression?? Call it the Ecology Corps or something.

[Karenina]

15. you should be able to afford a roof over your family's head

However, in the new *economic reality, that isn't the case. Ya want some FRIES wit dat?

[AmandaRuth]

8. The store I work at had a photographer in yesterday

for a store promotion, Santa pet pictures. It was kind of slow and we were talking, she said she had to get out of there right at 6, because she had to give a talk at her Christian church - (That is how she said, it - not I am talking at my church, I am talking at my Christian church). We kept just shooting the breeze, and the conversation led to the homeless. She actually said, " there is no such thing as homeless, it is their own problem, because there are so many ways off the street. " So I asked about the mentally ill homeless, and she said "we don 't want them, their own families don't want them".

I just kept my head down, and tried to do my job without biting a hole in my lip.

I don't mean to be so disrespectful to Christians, but what exactly are teaching in those churches, besides hate for the liberals and vote for republicans?

[AmandaRuth]

16. Also, i wanted to say

that you missed inflation. I work at a job that pays above min wage here, and no way could I even begin to be able to support myself or a family, on this income. Not even talking into account the way food and energy prices have been going up.

[podnoi]

28. It's called Pharisees

[m berst]

39. no disrespect there

I don't think you are being disrespectful to Christians at all. I think you are being disrespectful to this person's views, and I don't have any respect for her views either.

With the ever-splintering Protestantism, anybody can hang out a shingle, call themselves a pastor, and start a church. Then they can represent Christianity in any weird and crazy way they choose.

I talk to many Christians who are now asking - where would Satan find PERFECT cover for his destructive activities? Think "wolves in sheep's clothing" and you will see where I am going with this.

[Dem2theMax]

43. That 'KKKristian' isn't a Christian. Period. Shame on her. nt.

[datasuspect]

54. one of the fundamental problems with homelessness

is basic hygiene. this causes tremendous pressures to the psyhce, especially if you've never been homeless before.

like trying a place to defecate.

getting a job?

you need an address, you need a telephone number.

[Deja Q]

70. They're false Christians, as far as I'm concerned.

They're doing unto others what we ought to be doing to them. Maybe they'll figure it out that their way is wrong.

[JVS]

11. Hey, I'm not living in my car! I'm living out of it.

It's the only space I have to keep my stuff.

[graywarrior]

13. My husband works for a place that sells donated cars cheap

He said that homeless people are pooling their money and coming in to buy $50-$100 car so they can have places to sleep at night. We're in Florida, but sometimes the nights can get close to the upper thirties and a car with a couple of seats can be mighty cozy. I know, I've been there myself on a few occasions.

[jwirr]

23. I must say I feel sorry for this poster.

To be this ignorant of the events in our nation is a pity. Democrat or no, you do not know about much further than your own back yard. In my area which has severe cold the housing prices are so inflated that many young families cannot afford the trailer house you are so eager to give them. They are full time workers who work low paying jobs because other jobs do not exist in our area. We are an area that has been using government money to develop housing for the upper middle class and rich for retirement while ignoring the need for affordable housing. In the process the cost of housing has risen so high that many of the low-income workers cannot afford even to pay for a rental. One of the apartments in town is a absolute dump (poor wiring, plumbing and heating)and goes for $400.00 a month plus you pay all utilities. Another home similar to this one caught fire and an innocent child burned to death because the landlord took the rent but refused to fix the electrical problems. I suggest anyone who is not up on the changes in America in the last 20+ years read, "Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America" by Barbara Ehrenreich and "When Work Disappears: The World of the New Urban Poor" by William Julius Wilson. These two books are excellent documents on what is happening with the working poor.

[chaska]

25. When I first moved to LA I was embarrassed to admit to a girl I was dating

that I rented a room from someone, that I did not have my own place. But then I realized that not only did she do the same, but that damn near everybody does that here (rents either from or to someone). We talked just the other day and she was down about the fact that she may need to move soon. She was wondering how she could afford to do so (she gets a really good deal presently). She was telling me that in her area just renting a room in someone's home can cost $1000, that studio apartments often go for $1200. She said the poverty wage level for the area where I live (not quite as ritzy) is $46,000 (!!!).

Listening to Pacifica the other day, they were talking about how the schools were suffering from a lack of diversity because all the poor (children of color) were having to move away. Those poor rich folks, how unfortunate that their kids don't have the opportunity to learn to dominate others based on their wealth.

I won't lie to you, I don't have much use for the rich. Big reason I'm making plans to get the hell outta here.

[hollowdweller]

41. Lots of people are in poverty due to their own decisions, but that doesn't

mean we shouldn't help them. In the Bible Jesus said if you do good to only those who do good to you then how is that any different than anyone else, you should also do good to the unworthy. I think the fundamentalists and republicans are working on deleting that part of the bible for national security purposes.

[m berst]

51. that's it

People who moralize about personal responsibility and are so quick to blame others never "do the numbers" and compare incomes with living expenses. The numbers don't work. You can't have a stable society for long where the numbers don't work, and all of the preaching about personal responsibility - which is only permitted to go one way - doesn't change that.

The landlords are very much a part of the problem. I have been on both sides of this issue, having worked in property management for dozens of landlords, and I can tell you that in my experience the irresponsible deadbeats are more likely to be the landlord than the tenant. There are a few bad tenants who expect something for nothing, but I think that most landlords expect something for nothing. They believe that their cleverness in "getting into the market" trumps any obligation they have to the people who pay off their investment for them, or any obligation they have to the social context that gives them the return on their money.

Landlords want to moralize about the behavior of their tenants, but when it comes to their own behavior it is whatever they can get away with, - they are after all, the landlord, they will tell you, and getting as much money as they can wring out of the property - it is, after all, an investment and maximizing the return is just the clever thing to do, they will tell you.

[hollowdweller]

29. There's this alcoholic guy and his dog living in a car in the woods

On the land near mine. We've passed by him hiking and said hi before. He looked vaguely familiar to us but he had long white hair and a beard. Then I realized he and his wife who was on disability for some sort of mental condition used to live in this trailer at the end of the hollow 4 or 5 years ago. We always called him "The Drunken Hearted Boy" because no matter the time of day he was 3 sheets to the wind.

Apparently his wife kicked him out or something and he remembered this vacant land and drove a car back in there. He's got a fire pit and all these groceries around and has lived there over a year not. And it was COLD last winter! If I was him I'd move into the abandoned log cabin down over the hill from his car in the winter. It's a lot tighter.

[Royal Observer]

30. I can live in my vehicle if I want to.

But I don't want to.

[datasuspect]

83. just be glad you don't HAVE TO n/t

[m berst]

36. this can't be true

If it were, then I am sure that the Democratic party would be taking a much more aggressive stand to defend the least among us. Wouldn't you think? The Democratic party would never take the right wing position that all of people's troubles are their own fault, would it? So we would hear Democrats screaming about this, wouldn't we?

The leadership of the Democratic party has assured me by word, deed and demeanor that there is not a crisis in the country, so there couldn't possibly be people living out of their cars, or going without health care, or struggling to get work or to feed their family.

No, things are fine, and if your life is not going well, or if you see someone suffering, it is probably because of some personal moral failing. We just need to re-frame our arguments, imitate the successful electoral strategies of the Republican party, and shoot for 2008. Anything else would be too radical and too left wing.

Piss you off? Smack a conservative Democrat.

(this is mild sarcasm, of course)

[chaska]

44. Grrr!!!

Those pugly Dems. :spank:

[m berst]

46. it amazes me

Why so much resistance, do you think, to the simple idea that the Democratic party caused the mess we are in?

When your roof leaks, do you blame the rain, or do you blame the guy who was supposed to fix your roof?

The whole point of HAVING a Democratic party is to protect us from the inevitable ravages and abuse of the common people by the wealthy and the powerful.

It makes no sense to blame the wealthy and powerful for doing what they always do - increase their wealth and power. The blame lies with those who did NOT do what they were supposed to do - protect us from that abuse.

[chaska]

49. Hi Mike, couldn't agree more if there were 72 virgins involved. ;^)

My only question is ... okay several questions, how do we proceed? How do we get to consensus here ar DU? How do we communicate our desires and intentions to the party?

This IS what we need to do (take back our party from the DLC types). The sooner we get to it the sooner we can return this country to sanity.

Let's start a thread on these sorts of bottom line questions tomorrow. And get on with the program. We gotta take back our party, join or start a new one, or perhaps do the latter in order to accomplish the former. A mass defection to the Greens doens't have to be permanent. It might be a darn nice protest. Or, for that matter, it might be a darn nice place to stay. I certainly agreed with everything I read in their platform last time I read it.

I think the first thing we will likely need to do is get everybody clear on the definitions of Liberal and Conservative. A lot of people here, as you have made the point, only think they are Dems.

[Stinky The Clown]

37. I have the money, but not the heart, to be a landlord.

So shoot me. I'm a crapppy businessman because I have a heart. I could never be a landlord, but real estate around here is a good investment. We bought a row house in Baltimore as an investment. In an area where the prices are on an upswing and we should realize a tidy profit when we sell. So what are we doing?

We have no tenant. Instead, my son is living there. He pays less in rent than we pay for the mortgage. In return, he's fixing the place up and we're financing that. At the end of the deal, when we sell, we get the profit from the improvements plus any inherent appreciation and we will share this with him as payment for his sweat equity. We all win.

But to be a landlord? No way. I would never have the heart to be the one who might have to put a family on the street. My son's not been the best of tenants, but at least he's family and we're giving him a help up.

I'd bet that such an arrangement could also be made with someone who isn't family. Not just anyone, to be sure, but I would bet a dollar to a donut that someone could be found who would appreciate such an arrangemenbt and keep their end of the bargain.

Just a thought .......

[iconoclastic cat]

45. Yep. Here in Chicago, too.

It will get much, much worse.

[Katarina]

58. There is a story in my newspaper today

I just sat a cried for 30 minutes and then read this and the waterworks are going again. When I was a teenager we moved to Texas for a year. In that year we spent the majority of the time living in a tent and a small camper (2 adults and 4 kids)) with a couple of the coldest months in a single wide mobile home. We relied of churches for food and clothes. I think back to that time and I get so angry. I blame my parents. They are the ones who told us kids "God" told them to go there. All I know if how we were ridiculed. I read these posts and the news article and it just disgusts me. There is NO reason that we should have people but especially children going to bed homeless every night. What the hell is wrong with this country? What the fuck is this nation building we do when our own nation is so fucked up? It makes me sick. And extremely pissed off.

Here is the news article if anyone wants to read it.

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Headlines/03NewsHEAD02120504.htm

<snip>
More than 680 children in Volusia County and another 30 in Flagler County can't count on being tucked into the same bed every night.

And those kids, who live on the streets or are shuffled from motel to motel and from one emergency shelter to the next, are only the ones school officials have been able to find. They and others who work with homeless children, those with their families as well as teens living on their own, suspect the real tallies are much larger.

"Women and children have been identified as the fastest-growing sector of homeless people nationally the last two years," said Lindsay Roberts, executive director of the Volusia/Flagler County Coalition for the Homeless. "The economy has hurt women, and there are very large numbers of homeless women fleeing domestic abuse who have children with them."
:cry:

[HeeBGBz]

60. When the current regime is through destroying America

The great equilizer - when the stock market bottoms out and the economy disintegrates and everyone loses their proverbial shirts. It will be the homeless and one-check-from-homeless who will adapt more easily. They are used to scrounging for the next meal and making the most of meager blessings.

[SudieJD]

62. Most Of Us Are One Step Away...

From living on the streets or in our cars. Just one paycheck away. If anything happens to our employment or income, we're all out of our homes.

Sudie

[chaska]

67. When i go to the library...

I almost always see three homeless women. One is in a wheelchair. And the other two are very old. One of those I always see on the street with a shopping cart and the other is always asleep in one of the library's "comfy chairs". I just know that one of these days I'm going to go to the library, and not finding these women there, well, it's going to be a sad day.

[Bouncy Ball]

73. I know more and more unemployed people

and I'm supposed to be middle-middle class (where's the cutoff/what's the definition? I'm guessing here). I'm talking about my neighbors, not just people I "know of." I'm beginning to understand what they mean when they say the middle class is disappearing. It's quite scary.

[clem_c_rock]

80. I have a feeling we are going to be seeing this more than ever soon

I think the amount of homeless people we will be seeing will be unprecidented since the Great Depression.

This shit about job creation figures are totally fabricated.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

81. Bush still has negative job creation, and worst record since Hoover

however, 59 million dummies think they can eat moral values. :eyes:

[gorbal]

91. I am so sick of hearing "they deserve it"

By some estimates a third of the homeless are children, and two thirds of homeless men are veterans, do they deserve to be homeless? Do the mentally ill deserve to be homeless? Better yet, if you came upon hard times, would YOU deserve such a fate?

We give a huge chunk of our paycheck to the government every month, wouldn't you like that money to safeguard yourself and your descendants, rather than going to line the pockets of billionaires that already have quite enough?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

104. Where did you get that from my post?

I'm agreeing with the poster above-we will be seeing more homeless due to the policies of the Bush admin.

I volunteer my time at a homeless shelter and food pantry and it's way worse than 4 years ago.

[kineneb]

94. not homeless yet

thank goodness we only owe a small amount on our house, but living on $10/hr in Calif. is difficult. Those making less make up difference by using food pantries and other services. But what happens when there are more people needing help than help is available?

[nomatrix]

99. Who said they were needy?

Maybe you noticed them, because of the holidays or is there new construction going on where tradesmen are coming in. We've been in construction a long time, and know many who live in campers because with a owning a home your furniture goes through hell every time you move.
Lots of well paid workers chose to be "gypsyesque", carry your home with you as you go. Many jobs are not for very long and pay accordingly because of the hardship of moving to area's that are
(1)very expensive to live in
(2)have very few rental nearby
(3)will not lease without a year contract


Another thought, people are looking to rid themselves of homes that carry extraordinary property taxes. Though many areas have what were considered fair taxes prior to 2001, because of the cutback in welfare to states, many are having to pick up the cost of food stamps, etc. and that all falls into taxes. No home on property, no property taxes.
WA state has extreme property taxes. Huge illegal immigration state as well. Rather than looking at how many people are living in campers, cashier at a food store, and watch the cartloads of kids paid for with food stamps.

In case you haven't noticed, the dollar is devaluating. Before the housing bubble bursts, it might be wise to cash out on the equity of your home and ride out the next couple of years with a home paid for that can move where the work is. Campground memberships and ownerships may be the wave of the future.

The reason I know something about this, is we are seriously looking at doing it. A lot of people we know have, and are living quite well.
There was a long thread one time about a CA couple living in a campground until they could afford to buy, but housing prices were accelerating faster than they could save.

What I am saying, it may not be by poor money management but by investment strategy that these people you see are living in campers.

Sorry to derail. As you were.

[genieroze]

119. Repugnantkin take on this, no residence, can't vote, who cares, eom

[DrWeird]

121. I saw a family panhandling in Tacoma the other day.

the sign said "very embarrassed. Need money. Please help."

They weren't your typical mentally handicapped substance dependent panhandlers. Expect to see more of it.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

122. by brother lost his job in 2001 and now lives in a camper in Key West....

and my 54 year old sister was living in her car for a few weeks...she was a dealer in Atlantic City for 20 years and lost her job because of her age :shrug: which in turn caused the forclosure on her house and pride kept her from telling anyone until she got so scared of living in the car .....i made her move in with me and my family...lots of people living in cars and vans in NY.

[superconnected]

125. I have two friends that lived in their cars recently

Both are sharing an apartment together now - started doing this, this month.

They both worked throughout being homeless. One worked for labor ready and did any kind of job they asked - he may be still doing that.

My point, anyone can end up homeless, even while employed.