I watched F911 with wife...she is now asleep alone

[kwolf68]

Yep. I finally watched it…with my wife no less. She doesn’t vote and while her roots are well entrenched in Texas right-wing Conservative politics I thought I had rubbed off on here…

She had seemingly become tolerant of gays, wanted to protect our beloved environment, and seemed to understand that those who run our government are nothing more than the corrupt corporate oligarchs who would be glad to see all 280 million Americans drown to their death if it meant a positive return on Q profits.

While she remained a big fan of POPPY … she is no fan of W bush, but tonight we saw the facts.

We watched the movie and halfway through it we were in a fight and she was upstairs in bed without me.

We both remained in neutral corners and I even joined up with the “Michael Moore isn’t doing so hot” crowd when he seemed to show Iraq as nothing more than a Disney Paradise with kids having fun, going to the barber, and joining in water park fun. I knew that was bs…I’m sure it happened in much the same way the communists faked people from the West out that they actually had product to put on their shelves.

I AGREED with her that M.Moore was going a big over board….I AGREED.

Things started to get ugly when MY issue with W began to be discussed…The connection!!!! At the point they began to show how W had mislead 280 million people to go to war over someone who had not attacked us and was not an imminent threat she said, “We needed to get rid of him anway.”

THAT is when I lost it….I began yelling that was NEVER the f****** point …. The point was did we get the truth. Mind you she hated Bill Clinton because he lied ---about a blowjob----and seemed so ready to dismiss this LIE to appease what appears to be some deep-seated political dedication.

Though she says she has no interest or ties to the Republican Party, tonight proved otherwise. While she chooses to reject the Republican mindset, I still believe she is a complete right-wing whore. I believe she only “appears” moderate/Liberal to appease me.

The end result was I liked the movie and enjoyed it. I think it was great to enrage Liberals, but I am not so sure how effective it was against non-Libbies…I thought the last 30-45 minutes was POWERFUL…up to that point it appeared to be a political hatchet job.

Still, Moore is a genius. The idea to get Congressmen to sign up their kids for the military was awesome. Funny how NONE of them had any interest and only ONE son of a Rep is in the military...The fucking bastards. God Bless him and Jim McDermont.

[karlrschneider]

1. Woah. That's pretty heavy stuff...hey, don't let this wreck your marriage

It sounds like you were being a conciliatory as possible under the circumstances, but ... I don't know... maybe persuade her to watch it one more time?...IANAMC (I am not a marriage counselor) :eyes:

And now I'm realizing I have absolutely no credentials to advise you on this, just hope it settles down.
Good luck to you both.

[kwolf68]

3. We will

I got all-day ticket and am presently taping it.

What I came away with was such a positive feeling for our troops who seem to being used as pawns...

She has an uncle she loves who serveved in Nam and anytime she hears the word protestor she loses it.

But Moore came off with a flick that really let the troops say their peace. I liked it.

It won't wreck the marriage...I know that. I am giving up a lucrative career in software development so that I can work with endangered animals and their genetic traits and she supports that so she seems to be good to go (still, she LOOOOOVES tigers and I guess she thinks Ill have a + affect on those big kitties, but I most likely wont)

[karlrschneider]

18. That sounds optimistic, hope it does work out like you're planning!

I like tigers too, but never really met one in "person" (I did encounter a lion one time, but that's another story...I like cats of all persuasions - and generally all animals with some exceptions of the homo sapiens variety)

You might gently point out that most of the Viet Nam veterans eventually came to realize (as I did) that it was an ill-conceived "war" that we essentially -lost- in spite of the valorous efforts of our troops (I lost 4 friends myself...I was in the military then but by the vagaries of fate never was sent there) and the situation in Iraq is becoming much the same situation. Again, good luck to you both!

[knowbody0]

2. michael moore = HERO

i mated with a man like your wife. verbal combat once entertainment turned ugly for us as well, and when i became pro active in the anti war movement, he chose to hit the road. a sadness i carry, for i did love him. good luck overcoming this trial to your relationship

[kwolf68]

7. Thanks

Things will be fine, because she will give in.

What I mean is Politics are not that important to her. I even convinced her tonight to move to Oregon.

I LOVE it there...My kinda people...she was concerned about ability to "live the highlife" out there...ya know? Big screen TVS, plush items, plenty of good food, etc....

I told her if I could get something that's where I want to be...People LIKE ME....I am tired of this f****** red state...so, she being a Texas girl, is down with going there while I have said NO WAY to right-wing states like TX, Idaho, GA, OKie, et.al...

at least she's willing to move to a Blue State.

[knowbody0]

10. im in the pacific northwest (coastal)

the "air" here will be good for both of you. see ya

[genieroze]

30. Where are you living now?

I'm a Joisey goil, hubby is from Pennsylvania.

[SharonAnn]

59. Saw a great sign in a cube yesterday. "Future resident of a Blue State"

I've got to meet the person and ask where they got it. i'd like one too.

It was about the size and shape of a license plate, blue background, and white letters.

[hollowdweller]

45. Funny how the right has got Dems saying they don't like Moore but I never

Hear a republican saying they hate Rush, and he's twice as fucking nasty. They can dish it out but not take it.

[kalidas]

4. Moore spat

Sorry to hear about this. I could never have a partner that had such an opposing view. It would be too difficult to get along. Good luck!

[kwolf68]

12. Well

We married in 2000 and I had not become totally Liberal yet...I hate to admit this, but if I was the person I am today I would have never probably married her

[fortyfeetunder]

5. I can see this happening with my spouse...

He thinks MM is a weirdo...so I can imagine a similar battle.


I hope your common interests overcome your difference in political opinion.

[Bjornsdotter]

6. I'm so sorry

Sending a big hug your way...:hug:

Kim

[kwolf68]

9. Thanks

She knows the deal.

She tried to go head-to-head with me on environmental issues and we had a fight one night back in 2001 ... and she said during one of our fights after she had visited friends in Texas

"I am NOW for drilling in ANWR"----

That was a punch to the gut. I think all I did was yell and scream at her, but she has since Liberalized her view.

She still loves SUVs ... but I wouldnt EVER buy one of them so we have a minivan...

[PassingFair]

37. If you have no children, ditch her.

I could NEVER mate with a 'puke. I could have many years ago, but right now, at this time,I really couldn't sleep with someone who thinks that we are "doing the right thing" in Iraq. They are getting behind murder and pillage. And if she carries the "I've got MINE" taint, just give it up.

[InvisibleBallots]

55. the "I've got MINE" taint

I know exactly what you mean PassingFair. I don't think you can ever deal with those people.

[DoNotRefill]

38. You say:

"I think all I did was yell and scream at her, but she has since Liberalized her view."

You THINK all you did was yell and scream at her?

"You will accept my politics or I will beat you."

That's just fucking SPIFFY.

[ever_green]

8. good luck.

My family and I argue a fair amount, but it always turns out OK. We agree to disagree.

[Old and In the Way]

11. Facts are on your side. Time will bear this out.

Small consolation and sad we have to go through the learning curve with the politically naive, but that's life....

[kwolf68]

13. I agree

But it is so HARD to see Clinton being ripped up by my family for being a filthy “liar” yet Bush lied right to the American people’s face and then…

WE RE-ELECTED him….After the elected had ended I withdrew….Hell, I don’t even know what is going on, but I will not give up. We are right and many populist and progressives before us withstood even greater challenges, so I will not forsake them.

[Old and In the Way]

20. Maybe we didn't elect him.

I am constantly correcting my wife on accepting this as fact. I have no proof that he won, other than a Republican controlled frawdulent election and a biased media telling me he did.

[George_S]

14. Life and politics are not centered on a Moore movie

F 9/11 woke a LOT of people up, but I wouldn't make much more of it than that. Not that much more anyway.

[kwolf68]

15. What?

She's now asleep. :)

[Mika]

16. What?

"with kids having fun, going to the barber, and joining in water park fun."


Don't believe your lying eyes. (!?) :eyes:




I used to think that Cuba was much like the grim picture US propaganda has most Americans believing. UNTIL I WENT THERE TO SEE FOR MYSELF! Cuba is NOTHING like the picture that US gov/Miamicubano "exiles" paint. Nothing. The same is probably true regarding Iraq.

[kwolf68]

21. Mika

It wasn't that, but ...

what to believe

There was a point where M.Moore made Iraq look exactly like Disneyland.

Now please understand I am not prone to propaganda and I even cautioned my wife even after "agreeing" that the footage seemed like BS, and then followed it with "Well Germany became facist in the 1930s because they had such a distorted view of Jewish people"....


I know there are things we should not question, but the footage that Moore showed of those Iraqi kids couldn't have been reality for most of that nation, because it probably isn't reality for most of ours.

[Mika]

28. Well

Kids in Iraq do (or did) laugh. Kids in Iraq do (or did) get haircuts in barber shops. Kids did play in the water park. Of course, not all Iraqi kids.

Life was tough on the Iraqi people. Even tougher under genocidal sanctions.


I never got the impression that Moore was attempting to say that most kids in that nation lived like the most fortunate.

Now there are NO kids in Iraq enjoying anything close to what they had before, and not much hope to do so for many years - thanks to Bush's American attack on them.


--

Btw, it is even easier to distort Iraq and Iraqis to Americans than the Jews of/ and in Germany because Iraq and Iraqis aren't here in our country. Outta sight, outta mind.

M.M. put it in sight and in our minds. Good for him.


:hi:

[PassingFair]

39. I don't get it...

I've seen the movie more than once. There were NO scenes that resembled Disneyland. We saw a restaurant, normal street scenes and a kid running with a kite down a (crappy looking) street. Disneyland?

So her some pix of Fallujah now.

[The Minus World]

48. Critical Thinking

The footage of Iraq: the barbershop, the kid flying a kite, the restraunt - it wasn't meant to be representative of Iraq as a whole. I believe that's a dangerously oversimplified counterargument to Moore's narrative. Rather, it was meant to show a personable, human side to the individuals our government has classified as "the enemy."

Of course it was not in Moore's interest to show the devastation of Saddam's regime - his focus was not on highlighting the complex internal issues which have plagued Iraq throughout its existence. His aim was not to create the impression that Iraq was a nation of universal goodwill. It was to put a face on those whose backyard "Bombs Over Baghdad" and "Shock and Awe" occurred in.

The proper response that was to be elicited was "My God, these people are just like you and I, and we're KILLING THEM FOR NO REASON."

By agreeing with her, you are allowing the argument to be framed in right-wing terms. In terms of "Left = Iraq is great. Right = Iraq needs to be changed." instead of "Left = Iraqis are people, not statistics. Right = Innocent Iraqis need to be bombed in order to be liberated."

[LauraT28]

17. I couldn't live with someone with opposing views...

Good luck!!

[the_outsider]

19. don't conclude that your wife is very right-wing or even republican

It's very very hard to accept that our leaders are killing innocent people on no ground whatsoever with our tax money and making a huge amount of profit in the process. People have a natural defense mechanism against hearing the sort of truth which is very hard to live with.

And about removing Saddam - not only that was not the original excuse given, but more importantly USA has no right to remove anyone anywhere in the world, particularly not in a country which has 2/3rd of world's untapped oil. Nothing can justify it.

Personally I completely disagree that Michael went overboard. But that has been discussed here so much that it's probably not worth going into again.

[kwolf68]

22. This is the crux

more importantly USA has no right to remove anyone anywhere in the world, particularly not in a country which has 2/3rd of world's untapped oil. Nothing can justify it.

NO shit.

[noamnety]

23. a new strategy for us?

I know this is stressful on a marriage, but if the liberal men would all marry right-wing women, this could work.

The right-wing women are supposed to submit to their man's will. Our liberal guys could marry them up, and tell them what they ought to believe. And possibly target the ones in swing states and move them all to safe states. :evilgrin:

[genieroze]

31. And what are all the liberal women supposed to do?

Become lesbians????? Just kidding, I know it's not a choice. I have a gay brother and he's a conservative. Bawhahahah

[PassingFair]

40. LOL, genie!!!!!!!!!!!

n/t

[Sleepysage]

24. I'll preface this by saying I don't like Moore...

...I like the message, but not the medium, strange as that sounds. It's a viceral thing, akin to my distaste for mushrooms and cheap beer.

Anyway, this is why I don't believe that people on opposite ends of the political/ideological/religious spectrum should get romantically involved. Sooner or later, unless there's some heavy-duty compromise or capitulation, it's going to make an already difficult situation (long-term monogamy) intolerable. My wife and I are near dopplegangers, ideologically, and we still find things to argue over. I can only imagine the hell of discussing the morning paper with one's polar opposite. Ack.

[genieroze]

32. Mary Matlin/James Carvel? LOL eom

[Sleepysage]

33. Well...

...how much do you know about their personal lives? I'd wager next to nothing. Perhaps they've agreed to not discuss politics. In any case, such arrangements seem to be the exception, not the rule.

[genieroze]

34. I would love to be a fly on that wall, if they had a political argument.

She was on Imus and he was for Kerry and she got quite nasty. Carvel can be a bit crazy, defiantly not a soft spoken liberal.

[seabeyond]

25. it was just so much easier my repug hubby becoming

my girlie man this election. i so appreciate it. lol lol. kept the stress out of an already stressful election year

now on the iraq's playing in the park. that has gotten so much attention and like blame moore for this. yes saddam was a dictator. the majority in the country learned how to live under his hand. and they were using the barbers and they were going to the park and going to school

no it was not an utopia but there was a lot of people in that country living their lives the best they could under the situation. then the bombs came

now, i dont think you will find very many kids playing in the park.

the world has changed. it was bad before. it is a whole lot worse now. i dont think that was a big deal of the film. to take a little piece, that is sad, a dismissal of all that was there

what has stayed with me. bush with his rich. some call you the elite, i call you my base

fuck you

that is what i keep having ring in my ear with that stupid ass laugh of his

[0rganism]

26. one thing about those kids with kites and the men in barber shops...

...they were only there to show that, in spite of all the negatives about Iraq, there were still normal people living there trying to have fun and live peaceful lives. Sure, it wasn't a complete picture of pre-invasion Iraq, it wasn't intended to be. As Michael Moore said, we've already seen the other side of the argument. We've all heard about Saddam's torture prisons and rape rooms and Weapons of Mass Destruction and the gassing of Halabja, more than once probably. And it's not the whole picture.

Iraq was not Afghanistan. Kids could still fly kites. Men could get haircuts and shaves. That was real footage. Hell, if you've been paying attention, you may have read about the shit that went down with soldiers poaching antelope at the Baghdad zoo and shooting the tiger after it mangled a soldier's arm -- but the point is, the Iraqis had zoos. That means families went there for recreation. Families.

The bombs and cruise missiles our newscasters were cheering weren't just killing Saddam's palace guards. Those lovely flashes of light that looked like fireworks to us were death blows to women and children and family pets.

It's a shame that so many Americans, even DUers, can't seem to wrap our minds around this simple concept.

[kwolf68]

27. Great points all around

Damn, I love us Liberals.

soldiers poaching antelope at the Baghdad zoo and shooting the tiger after it mangled a soldier's arm -- but the point is, the Iraqis had zoos. That means families went there for recreation. Families.

I remember this ...

My wife's response was, "what were they doing with a zoo?"

I agree Hussein was a scumbag, but I will NEVER believe there was not a better way to deal with him at this point.

[genieroze]

29. Calm down.

I'm a tiny bit more conservative than my husband, and I'm a Christian and he's a agnostic. He gets annoyed with me but he does listen to what I have to say and occasionally rolls his eyes. I do the same to him.
Unless you can agree not to agree, never argue religion or politics.

[foreigncorrespondent]

35. Man!!!

I hold you in very high regard! There is no way on earth I could ever settle down with someone who leans to the right like that.

I thank God every day that Sapph is as much a lefty as I am. We do have our political differences, but we tend to work through those.

I wish you luck in working through this with your wife. Sounds like you have a pretty solid marriage away from the obvious political differences.

[DoNotRefill]

36. If you yell at your wife....

I hope she divorces your ass.

Emotional abuse (and yes, screaming at somebody IS emotional abuse) is unacceptable, even if the abuser is a Democrat and the recipient is a republican.

[Porcupine]

41. Exactly why the GOP has the male vote.

Man yelling in arguement with wife is bad person.

Woman yelling in arguement with husband is abused victim of patriarchy.

Ignore all sense of reality or paths to reconciliation. Pissed off man decides all liberals are jackasses either quits voting or votes GOP.

Happens all the time.

[DoNotRefill]

49. So what level of abuse is acceptable to you?

Is it OK if he only hit her once, and "promised to never do it again"?

I'm not talking about the original poster here, it's a hypothetical.

Domestic violence can take MANY forms, and screaming at people is NOT acceptable conduct.

[LiberalAndProud]

42. When things calm down and the two of you are on speaking terms

again, I would be very interested to know if your wife would have supported the invasion with the stated purpose of removing Sadam from power at the outset.

I will never argue that Hussein and sons were not evil. I wonder if the bulk of America will have supported the war with the stated purpose of removing them from positions of power? It seems to be a valid fall-back excuse for the majority of Americans.

Invading a sovereign nation for the purpose of removing the head of state is a violation of international law. Should international law be revised to identify despots and remove them from power?

This question is not intended as attack or ridicule, but because I would like to understand why many people believe that what we have done in Iraq is alright.

[seabeyond]

43. remember back when

they couldnt get the american people to side with them wmds. they knew this. why they had to start telling the story of nuclear. mushroom cloud. a little drone plane that could bring the chemical and biological weapons to our door step. k not our door step, but isreal

they couldnt get the support of the people with a simply saddam is a bad person and we need to take him out


she needs to remember back to that time

[pa28]

44. That sounds tough but here's my .02

If your wife was a total Republican 'ho she probably would not have married a principled Liberal.

Bring her a nice breakfast in the morning and don't mention politics again unless she decides to vote.

[The Minus World]

46. Similar Experience.

I managed to get my mother and another right-wing friend to watch Fahrenheit 9/11 just a couple of days ago. They seemed open to the idea of hearing Moore's political views expressed - which was, I now realize, the problem: they sat down thinking that F9/11 was nothing but a liberal polemic, offering nothing more than a weak counterbalance to "reality," which consists of FOX, CNN and MSNBC.

Before the movie started, they had expressed that they were interested in seeing the movie, but didn't want to actually put money in Moore's pockets to do so. Owning the DVD gave me the perfect opportunity to expose these people, who I hold so dear to me, to an avalanche of facts condemning this administration's sunny projections of flowers and candies in Iraq. However, as the movie played, it became increasingly apparent that the focus was more on Moore, and his political bent, than the facts contained therein.

In the beginning, there were quite a few outbursts of, "Ohhhh, now that's just a total lie!" or, "He's just taking bits and pieces of articles and pasting them together!" to which I responded, "Listen, you're smart enough to understand the concept of editing. If you can find an actual lie in this movie, then I challenge you to do so. Otherwise, I'm sure you're capable of understanding the larger message Moore is trying to get across."

Near the end of the movie, we were absolutely silent. The dead Iraqi innocents; the soldiers suffering; the Lila Lipscomb segment; it all hit home with my mother, and, after the movie ended, we all had a remarkably rational discussion which ended well. However, nobody had their thinking re-wired as a result, and we were back to the same distracting discussions about wedge issues within the hour.

I hope your relationship doesn't suffer as a result of your divergent political beliefs. If you keep using reason to chip away at her obstinacy, she just might sit through the whole movie with you.

[Zen Democrat]

47. Regarding your comments about the "Disney Paradise" ...

You say: "when he seemed to show Iraq as nothing more than a Disney Paradise with kids having fun, going to the barber, and joining in water park fun. I knew that was bs…I’m sure it happened in much the same way the communists faked people from the West out that they actually had product to put on their shelves."

I think you should watch the movie's Special Features: "Montage" The People of Iraq on the Eve of Invasion". It is the longer film report from which the kids playing, etc. was taken. It's quite interesting and obviously not faked. If you can look at that and believe that the Iraqi people are better off now, you have a far more optimistic view of Iraq's future than I.

[DemonFighterLives]

50. It used to be ok to marry republicans

D*bby has divided everyone so much as to make it nearly impossible. Anyone who follows the b*sh cult needs help.

Moore's attempt to humanize Iraqi's probably makes repukes feel guilty if they feel anything at all.

Good luck with the wife!

[JanMichael]

51. You just called your wife

a "right wing whore" in public.

Very uncool---

You just took a political argument to a low that you should not have in your marriage.

[Phentex]

52. This seems like a very odd relationship regardless of politics....

I'm only seeing a small part of it, but it looks hopeless to me.

[Solly Mack]

53. What JanMichael said...

Maybe it was just said in anger...but remember...those words we sling about in anger become thoughts that can and will take root...they can shape our impressions.

Best of luck.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

54. but... I thought Dubya was a uniter not a divider....

I got in a huge fight with my neighbor over politics.

[Smirking_Chimp]

56. F911 changed my family

Every night at the dinner table we talk politics, and in 2000 after * was elected, I would bring up all this stuff, that the media would ignore. My family thought I was just very anti *.
Well when F911 came out we went to see it, and everything I was saying over the past three years was right there on the screen! Now they don't think I'm such a kook anymore, and they do their own checking of the news, instead of just believing whatever the talking heads say.
People who discredit MM are afraid of the truth.

[ShaneGR]

57. Here's where you screwed up BIGTIME.....

Quote "I began yelling"

Never, ever, be the first to raise your voice.

And oh yeah, calling your wife a "whore." Very uncool.

[bullimiami]

58. Lucky for you, we liberals have no morals.

So it should be easy for you to find some leftist tramp or 2 to give you what your wife just cant, (support, understanding and probably a 3 way) and since you also have no morals it shouldn't be too hard for you to lie to her.

[KSAtheist]

60. All righty then.

So, someone dear holds a political viewpoint you find reprehensible. Okay, we've all been there.

So, you begin screaming at her, come on the internet, and call her a whore. Then you say she's only appearing moderate to appease you. Hmm. Perhaps the whole F911 thing is just a symptom of a deeper, darker problem in your relationship.

If not--if a shared political viewpoint is the only thing holding your marriage together, then perhaps it would be best if you cut your losses and run before you start throwing the good china at each other.

[Moderator]

61. I'm locking this thread

reason :

innapropriate/flamebait