do you believe that the US is headed towards Fascism?

[UpsideDownFlag]

I'm undecided, but it sure looks pretty sketchy. instead of Fascism, i'd say more like 'christian theocracy'

[sportndandy]

1. We are already there

[Starlight]

22. Absolutely. We're already there. n/t

[Downtown Hound]

2. In a way, we're already there

However, there's still a lot of hope because only half of the population is buying into it. Tough to really run a successful long-term fascist state with those kind of numbers. I think that eventually, Bush's policies are going to damage us so much that even the yokels won't be able to ignore the fact that we're on the wrong track, and then an opportunity for change will come.

[Ron Green]

3. Slavery is the natural state of man, unfortunately. Whatever we can do,

through our higher selves, to bring equality and liberty to our society and others, is difficult because fear is the more immediate and powerful (on this earth, at least) of the two great forces, the other being, of course, love.

[bryant69]

4. Personally I believe that, as usual,

America is headed in about 50,000 directions at once. But one of those directions is facism.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[stepnw1f]

5. Seems a Bit Rhetorical Doesn't It?

Thom Hartman points out a pretty good parrallel between the current situation in the US to the earlier days of Nazi Germany...
http://www.thomhartman.com/home-lh.shtml

[Minstrel Boy]

6. there's nothing left to wait for. it's come. n/t

[BattyDem]

7. Headed?

We're already there. It's just not "official" because the average American hasn't heard it on the news yet. :eyes:

[Johonny]

11. they've heard

But their waiting for the talking heads to tell them what the news means.

[teryang]

8. It's already here: belligerent, racist, police state.

There's no doubt in my mind. Manuel Valenzuela characterizes American fascism in the following article as the "imperial warmonger and terrorist nation abroad and autocratic usurper of rights, freedom and democracy at home." Arabs and Muslims have replaced Jews as the primary scapegoats, but blacks and homosexuals are not ignored. Read this essay if you haven't already:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7398.ht...

Inside the Clouds of 9/11

Catalyst for Perpetual War

Manuel Valenzuela

<There exists in America today a hatred for Arabs and Muslims, wisely planned by those whose hands toy with our marionette strings, that has released into the air the winds of allowed carnage upon a population of innocent human beings.>

This is a blatant racism, guided and exponentially increased by the atrocities of 9/11, that fails to separate monsters from normal people like you and me, wanting nothing more than to live in peace and happiness.>

<For the majority of us, 9/11 and its aftermath continues to lead us towards a police state and undemocratic despotism at home, fear and insecurity in the world, and perpetual war in our daily existence.>

<Just as America roams the thick cloud cover of 9/11, unable to find its missing self, so too has our psychology been lost among the ruins and the dust. Missing it remains, making us unaware of what we have become, similar to the millions of Germans who in the 1930’s allowed the Nazis to rampage across the world, their minds hypnotized and oblivious to the crimes against humanity being perpetrated in their name, pretending as if nothing was happening, pretending their leaders were pure and altruistic. <snip>

[Selatius]

9. Our form of fascism (aka corporatism) is better; it's more subtle

There is no state-owned media. The bulk of the media is corporate-owned instead. This gives them a heavy influence over the content.

There isn't a partnership between the federal gov't and corporations. Rather, one has influence over the other.

Political parties are not outlawed and liquidated. They are made irrelevant through "5th column" actions (DLC corporatists). One still has a vote at the ballot box, but the outcome is nearly the same.

This means that the corporatists are able to not only affect people's perceptions of reality through the news media but also to affect gov't policy with respect to law. It's more subtle, but it works. It's more efficient in tricking the people into giving over power than it is to simply take it from them and then spend time and effort trying to suppress the people.

It's uniquely American. You can still argue that the news media and the people are technically free. You can still vote, and the news media isn't controlled by the government. The difference is that they've been rendered meaningless and are just illusions to keep people asleep.

You must give them credit for their cunning. They are truly masters of social engineering. Their way is more refined than what was seen in Germany and Italy where brute force was more readily used against opponents.

[Thoth]

18. Insightful post. More subtle, but still insideous. n/t

[DoNotRefill]

10. And you're doing your best....

to make sure that when it happens, we'll lack the basic tools necessary for effective resistance. Thanks. :evilgrin:

The Second Amendment was never about duck hunting. It's always been about the People having the necessary tools to overthrow a totalitarian government.

[UpsideDownFlag]

25. explain to me how not supporting gun control would fight fascism.

it'll probably be as hard as fighting off a tank with your toys.\

but we've digressed from the issue of the original thread a bit at this point.

[DoNotRefill]

26. tank crews....

have to get out of their tanks sometime.

If you want an example of how a heavily armed populace can resist the US military, I'd think you would have to look no further than Iraq. I really can't see the US military pulling a Fallujah in Philadelphia or Boston, can you?

Being disarmed means that you lack the basic tools necessary to resist.

[AG78]

27. But the 2nd amendment

was written at a time when tanks and bombs dropped from high in the air did not exist.

True, you could point to Iraq as an example of what you're talking about. But I don't see the American military leaving.

And totalitarianism is a political model. Fascism is an economic model. They don't have to go together. Sort of like the way capitalism and democracy aren't the same thing.

[DoNotRefill]

29. but...

naval vessels and heavy artillery surely DID exist at that point, and no curbs were placed on their ownership.

The "but technology has changed" argument doesn't fly. Why? Because technology has changed in other areas besides arms, and in every other area, the change in technology didn't mean that the new technology wasn't covered. 2 examples: The Internet and the First Amendment, and surveillance equipment and the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures.

[SteveG]

12. We've been closer

during the early 1950's, during the McCarthy Era, but there were significant differences between then and now. Primarily the media was far more diverse in ownership than it is today, and individuals or small companies owned most of the media outlets of the period. Today only a few large media concerns control 80% or more of all media outlet's, and being large corporations, they do not have the sense of personal responsibility nor personal honor, that the media outlet owners of yesteryear had towards their readership.

I also think it's a mistake to look for a Nazi style Facism, look more to the style of a Mussilini, or maybe a Franco, or a Chiang Kai Chek, with far more Corporate/Religious influence than was evident in Hitler's Germany.

[Az]

13. More like feudalism

Corporate CEOs as the new Lords and the religious right granting power and the will of god to back their position.

[T Town Jake]

14. Well, if we were...

...(and we may well be in some sense) would you change your mind about the 2nd amendment? :shrug:

[Az]

Whats to change

the 2nd Ammendment is about arming militias which are controlled by the state congresses. Its basically about what has become the national guard. If you are taling about guns for citizens then you are talking about private property issues. And there is a lot of room for negotiation there.

[gristy]

15. Dude, with a stolen election, we're already there

fas-cism n. 1. A philosophy or system of government that advocates or exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with an ideology of belligerent nationalism.

[President Kerry]

17. unfortunately, this definition is a pretty

accurate description of our current state. There's still freedom of speech but that too is fast disappering, with the Patriot Act. My god, we're a fascist state! Who'd have thought 5 years ago that could ever happen.

Racist belligerent state - check ("I learned all I need to know about Islam on 9/11", "First Iraq, Then France" - those are real quotes)

Corporatism - check (Halliburton, no bid contracting)

Shunning of intelligentsia - check (educational centers
Theocracy - check.. the list goes on and on

[AG78]

28. The process has

"Who'd have thought 5 years ago that could ever happen."

been going on for more than 4 years. Corporate control didn't just pop up in December of 2000.

[Blue_Tires]

16. already happened

[tinanator]

19. been there, done that

they got the shirt off my back.

[Baconfoot]

20. Not "headed towards", already there

And anyone who says the death toll isn't high enough to use the word facism is not considering nazism as an ideology and comparing to neoconservative ideology. There isn't a difference.

[Smeggy]

21. We're on a slippery slope at least...

may I direct people towards:

http://users.aber.ac.uk/cha2/bushie.WMV

Sure the guy dont know what he's talking about... But it shows what went on during the 2004 election campaigns. Is this democratic?

[Doctor_J]

23. Most of the infrastructure is in place

The corporations do the government's bidding, and vice-versa. A large % of the populace is willing to trade freedom for faux safety. The media report only what the WH lets it report. A regressive tax structure is in place. More than 100% of your taxes go to support the military. These are all symptoms.

Edit: Also the last 2 or three elections have been hijacked.

But I can still post whatever I want to on the web, and say what I want to in any "first amendment zone". So we're not there yet.

[AG78]

24. If America

isn't a merger of corporate and state power, then no country has ever been. Corporations don't own everything just yet, but they'll never stop trying. They don't have to eat or sleep, yet have all the rights of human beings. They're well on their way to owning the seeds for food(more so then they do now). They won't stop until they control every aspect of existence, including existence itself.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

30. The seeds of fascism (such as

racism, militarism, anti-intellectualism, and ignorant, arrogant nationalism perversely mixed with religious overtones) have always been here, and the Reagan administration began cultivating these seeds twenty years ago. The Busheviks continued the job, and now a significant portion of the population is in a full-blown fascist mindset.

We're not quite all the way to full-blown fascism yet (some people still speak the truth in public and are not arrested for it), but I can see it from here. :scared: