....a lesson about Evangelicals and "ourselves"

[bzmtq5]

Interesting reading....paragraphs below from

A pro-Israel group teaches us a lesson about Evangelicals and ourselves

By Jonathan Tobin

Can a group number as many as 70 million individuals fly under the radar? Outside of the context of politics, Christian evangelicals are virtually invisible in American culture, except to be laughed at or feared.

Just as the image of the Jew can be a dangerously misleading generalization, the same is true for the image of the evangelical.

Listen to many Jews talk about conservative Christians and you'd think they're discussing the Taliban.

This disconnect between image and reality is of no small importance in the aftermath of a presidential election in which evangelicals and "moral values" voters are said to have provided the margin of victory for President Bush.

[Walt Starr]

1. Why are you pushing pro-Bush shit on this site?

Just asking.

[DrWeird]

5. That's a good question.

The search function is your friend.

(-;

[Walt Starr]

6. I know, I've read them all

and am now reduced to posting links to other articles on the sites he cites.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Walt Starr]

13. Yeah, and that site is no longer public

because it was too over the top rightwing!

[bzmtq5]

19. I'm impressed....

I posted at cu but would prefer to say I wasn't from there...I posted several disagreements with those who claimed to be christian.

[bzmtq5]

18. LOL

[Walt Starr]

22. since you're laughing

why do you post articles from rightwingnut sites?

[bzmtq5]

25. I believe they're more centrist....

than you. Boils down to perception I guess...

[Walt Starr]

27. Cal Thomas and Bill Bennet are centrist????????

:wtf:

That's just plain fucked up right there.

[DireStrike]

2. You're in the minority of evangelicals.

Tend to the flock instead of the wolves. Your sheep are eating each other alive.

[bzmtq5]

20. God told me there were some lost sheep here...

why else would I hang around?

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

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[bzmtq5]

23. Are you a professional?

Knowing which voices to "listen" to is key

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

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[bzmtq5]

28. What about the music I hear...

in my head and then perform.

What about all the great composers who "hear in their head".

Because you and others don't doesn't lessen the experience.

P.S. since I'm a professional, I have no inclination to seek a secular professional regarding what I hear....

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bzmtq5]

36. Fine indeed, LOL...

I appreciate your quick wit.

Don't worry, I've heard the whacked out shit before and know where that comes from and know I have free will regarding which voices are good and which evil and which one to obey.

Having lived a pretty debauched B.C. lifestyle, I'm well acqainted with both sides and trust the clarity I have now through Christ will never leave.

Shalom!

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bzmtq5]

42. I certainly don't trust anybody....

completely. My trust is in God.

[Walt Starr]

43. Well, this is the last post to you

C U Later

[DrWeird]

50. Were you the same guy...

who ALSO linked Ravi Zacharias and ALSO listed apologetics under his hobbies and started that thread about Hitler and Mussolini and Stalin being atheists and the worst murderers in history?

I'm just curious. Remember: thou shall not give false witness.

[LoZoccolo]

52. I would take from that that he's a Christian.

Is there something in the rules here that forbids that?

[DrWeird]

53. I was just asking if it was the same person.

Seems like an amazing coincidence.

[LoZoccolo]

55. I really doubt that.

Anyways, I've felt for a long time that people who attend these churches are some of the most important people on DU, as they have truck with right-wing Christians that you and I don't have so much of. I have no idea why some of us would kick out a substantial percentage of our party - and to do it when we were so close to winning is unconscionable. We should be supporting those who come here in support of our cause. Some respect is in order, for the good of our agenda, and the good of our country.

[DrWeird]

56. Well, let's let bzm??? answer the question.

Nobody's talking about kicking out christians, and you know it.

[LoZoccolo]

57. No, no one's /talking/ about it.

They're just acting like they shouldn't be here by acting like interrogators.

I really see nothing out of place with talking about Stalin and Hitler in an environment where so many people talk about atrocities done under the banner of religion as well. I think it just establishes that there are larger issues which bring about these things, and fanaticism in the absence of religion as well. We ignore that at our peril, especially as it's not lost on the religious right.

[DrWeird]

58. Bullshit.

Let's let bzm??? answer the question and than we'll see how it's relevant.

[LoZoccolo]

59. Look what I found doing a "search".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2791779

I looked for the term "Ravi" to find it.

So now you should be satisfied, seeing as you were "just asking". Well, now you know!

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

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[InvisibleBallots]

3. when I hear these stories about "Dominionists" living in secret

compounds in DC controlling the government, I can't help but think of the conspiracy theories they used to tell about Jews.

[LoZoccolo]

26. I agree.

A lot of the "anti-dominionist" propaganda borrows a lot of it's technique from Nazi propaganda - especially it's taking liberties to put intentions and beliefs in it's opponents' heads. I have no doubt that there are people like Gary North who want to impose a dominionist agenda (just as there are Maoists who would impose an atheist one) - the problem I have is with people who want to generalize that to all evangelical Christians, something like 33% of which voted for Kerry, with 21% of white evangelicals doing so, and 39% of which are registered Democrats.

[Walt Starr]

4. Here are some more interesting links from your source

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0503/thomas_muslim_threat.php3
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0502/mideast_facts.asp
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0703/thomas_2003_07_03.php3
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/1003/steyn_2003_10_28.php3
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/thomas_2003_11_11.php3

Seems it's a rightwing site to me.

[whistle]

7. A survey of people calling themselves Evangelicals....

...suggests otherwise:

<snip>

- 66 percent believe the Bible is the actual word of God - 84 percent believe the only hope for salvation is through personal faith in Jesus Christ

<more> http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/12570.htm

Are evangelicals in the mainstream?
Religion News Service (USA), Apr. 16, 2004

Three-quarters of U.S. evangelicals view themselves as part of mainstream American society, but believe they have to fight to be heard by mainstream Americans, according to a new survey.

The results, pollsters said, indicate tensions between those who consider themselves evangelical Christians and other Americans. <...>

Forty-eight percent of evangelicals said they thought only "born-again" Christians would go to heaven. Forty-five percent said they disagreed with that proposition. (Fewer black evangelicals than white - 42 percent compared with 50 percent - said they believed one had to be born again to enter heaven.) <...>

Michael Cromartie, director of the Evangelical Studies Project of the Ethics & Public Policy Center, said the overall survey confirms the state of evangelicalism, but he questioned if some of the findings related to theological views are actually those of evangelicals.

"There is a certain point where you are no longer evangelical," he said.

"Part of the definition of being an evangelical is its exclusivity of the Gospel, and that the way of salvation is through Christ. And when you start saying ... 'I believe everybody goes to heaven,' what are you, a liberal Protestant now? What are you?" <...>

Results of the survey are included in a four-part series, "American Evangelicals," that began this week on Religion & Ethics Newsweekly and continues through May 7. The findings will be also discussed in a story in the May 3 edition of U.S. News & World Report.


<Links to survey results and to the video of "America's Evanglicals: Part One. Evangelicals and Identity" included:>

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/6815-.html

[Solly Mack]

9. You just can't help yourself, can you?

[WebeBlue]

10. You mean those exit polls wrong about Kerry...wrong then also

on moral values as basis for vote swing to B***...can't have it both ways. The moral values issue is a myth foisted into public consciousness by msm. Fact check please.

[George_S]

11. It's funny how liberals dismiss almost everything in print...

... or are at least skeptical. But when it comes to a crime story, "Death penalty! Now! Forget about a trial." Just like freeperville.

Recently I rented a PBS series on evolution. The last in the series was about Evangelicals majoring in science and how they are profoundly at odds with evolution. They suffer a genuine inner conflict and many have extreme difficulty coming to terms with it. How do they deal with the contradictions of what they were taught their previous 18 years of life? The interviewed for the doc were real people who care. They even mentioned their fear of being labeled a "liberal" at Wheaton College if they don't take creationism literally.

It isn't "pro-Bush" to strive to understand them.

[WebeBlue]

17. Understanding biblical as literal is deceptive

to people trying to harness personal faith in their life-walk and growing Christ consciousness. It is not helpful to further the deception, it is a dis-service to people who are genuinely searching for meaningful application of biblical concepts to their spiritual lives. Understanding the core of the belief set of many Evangelicals as an authentic desire to strengthen one's personal faith is understanding in compassion and not in opposition. The bible as literal, however, is to advocate nurturing an immature faith which for many people seeking to deepen their faith development of maturing faith is the desired outcome.

I don't take issue with the belief set, I take issue with that belief set being exploited, misused, abused and diminished by those who would capitalize on people in genuine quest for closeness with their spiritual lives.

[pelagius]

14. An evangelical is one thing, but...

...I've taken to calling people who espouse "end time" beliefs ala those found in the popular "Left Behind" books Armageddonists. An Armageddonist believes the second coming of Christ is imminent and that a worldwide war (Armageddon) must take place before he returns. However, these Armageddonists -- who think such a worldwide war would be wonderful! -- will escape in the nick of time via the "Rapture."

These beliefs came into vogue only in the 20th century and represent a break from historic Christian teaching and belief. "Armageddonists," though numerous in the US, are the kooks of world Christianity.

[bzmtq5]

30. none of them think such a worldwide war would be wonderful

IMHO

[Walt Starr]

31. You are 180 degrees out of synch on this

they all want the world to blow up, IMHO.

[bzmtq5]

45. Re-synch

I worship and socialize with evangelicals...I'm inclined to believe you don't.

You may know that Armageddon is a valley about 50 miles north of Jerusalem and Revelation 16 seems to indicate that many "kings" will gather there for a great battle. The hebrew name for the area is Megiddo.

IMHO, only madmen want the world to blow up. I'm unsurprised some would say christians want the world to blow up.

The bible says Satan's still around confusing communication, he's called the prince of the air.

We're free to believe what we want to believe, I find it hard to believe the opposite of what I've found studying the bible for years.

Peace!

[sam sarrha]

15. I think what back lash is all about is that some Evangelicals are calling

what they feel is their success in supporting the pResident as a Mandate to legislate their religion into the schools and the legislation of their "Morals" in intolerant violations of the 'infidels' civil rights.. 3 or 4 percent majority isn't a Mandate.
anyone who says it is ..is going a bit Talliban on us.

many of us see you supporting a president that lacks morals and any actual realizations of the Christian principals in his actions and policies. many of us who do not disagree with you very much on many subjects disagree with the needless war started with lies and deliberate misconceptions, the give away of out nations wealth and jobs to foreign powers and the 2% richest people and feel that you were used and manipulated.. we have the most deep and profound compassion for your misconceptions, and the sufferings that will cause us all in the end... he will just feed you some legislative scraps but wont keep any promises.. you were used.. there is no mandate.

he made a mandate to protect the nations security and has failed to close the boarders.. when the Illegal Mexicans move into your city you will soon have a problem with no resolution... they are not going home, and the 20,000,000 migrants do take our jobs and cause wages to drop.. it is a serious problem of national security. Bush is encouraging this Largest Migration of Humans in the History of the world.. this will soon be Northern Mexico. bush does nothing, but continue his support of Foxes ridding his country of the poor to raise the living standards of the privileged. this is a bigger problem than the war in Iraq or Al Quita. we are being invaded by another country and our President has planned it. and you support him.. for the wrong reasions, and we will all suffer.. but you will probably find us to blame..

[Walt Starr]

16. Why do you use a site that has Cal Thomas and Bill Bennet articles

and other rightwing whackery?

[GreenPartyVoter]

35. I am a progressive Evangelical. I have little in common with the

fundagelicals belief-wise.

-------------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

[bzmtq5]

39. Yes, Jesus loves liberals....

I'm sure we agree more than we disagree since I don't believe I fit the classic definition of an evangelical either. Correctly defined, I believe "Messianic Jew" is more descriptive "label" for me.

[GreenPartyVoter]

41. I guess my best "label" is pluralistic universalist. There are many roads

to heaven and we will all get there eventually. :)

-------------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

[bzmtq5]

47. Your heaven claim is the same as saying Jesus...

was wrong or the bible records incorrectly what he said.

I've gotta go get my eyes examined, literally.

Shalom!

[GreenPartyVoter]

54. You haven't met folks who believe the Bible is errant at times before?

Here's more about what many of us believe:

http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/liberalchristians.htm

Just click the words liberal and progressive. :)

P.S. Check out the links to Liberal Judaism and TIKKUN in the General Religious resources section. :)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

62. There are many religions out there

It's expected to say that followers of one (or none) consider the other's sacred books factually incorrect.

Your point is?

[Cheswick2.0]

46. Messianic Jew

Have you always been or is this something you chose as an adult?

[bzmtq5]

49. Not always...

Still uncovering details re: Jewish heretige. Confession of faith in Jesus as Messiah was before I became aware of Jewish heretige.

Shalom!

gotta go...

[Cheswick2.0]

60. That's very interesting

I knew some people who attended "Jews for Jesus" meetings because they were in mixed marriages and searching for ways to make it work. I never realized until a few years ago that there were Messianic Jews who, since the time of the early church, have kept their Jewish traditions etc... but also believe in Christ. There is a congregation in Philly and I would love to attend one of their services if I ever get the chance.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

63. If you believe Jesus is the Son of God, died for our sins, ressurrected

etc... then, almost by definition, you're no Jew. You're a Christian.

The only place where I ever saw Christians saying they consider themselves Jews was -- I kid you not -- godhatesfags.com.

[LoZoccolo]

40. Walt Starr - did you read this one?

I hope you didn't get the "they all want to blow the world up" thing from one of those Lakhoff books you said you were going to read. They're pretty good from what I've seen, and I don't want to be disappointed if I buy one.

[billyskank]

44. Evangelicals aren't a problem.

Even fundamentalists aren't; I consider myself one, in my own way. What is a problem is intolerance. That is the enemy, wherever it is found.

[really annoyed]

48. OK Then....

Jewish World Review, eh? Just another conservative website.

I think people like you need to get it through your head that evangelical Christian doesn't equal conservative.

Being Christian doesn't make you a conservative. You can believe in the Virgin birth, the resurrection, the divinity of Christ.... That doesn't equal up to a person who is intolerant of other religions.

80% of America is Christian? That doesn't equal 80% evangelical Christian. We have freedom of religion.... Even though 80% state they are Christian, there are many diverse beliefs within that figure.

Plus, I'm quite sick of the "moral" voter line.

Yeah, the topic of terrorism had nothing to do with it...

I'm not interested in learning about the intolerant sadists who cover themselves up in the label "Christian." I'm not interested in people who use religion to be hateful against others. Yeah, I'm sure Jesus is proud we are using his name in that way!

But Christianity? Sure, I'm open to the belief system.

But I'm not Christian, and I never plan on being one. I don't care how many references to "God" and "Judeo-Christian values" are made in the schools, the government ect...

You're not changing my mind, EVER. I'm not going to be forced to believe in something I don't. For now, the First Amendment should protect that right. For now...

[LoZoccolo]

51. Actually, "moral values" as the prime factor is on the decline.

40% in 1996
35% in 2000
22% in 2004

http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=3375543

I also feel that the right would like us to attack them in this theater - it could potentially bring the evangelical voters who vote Democratic to their side if they can goad us into appearing intolerant.

[vixannewigg]

61. Hard to Follow But.....

This thread is hard to follow because of all of the deleted messages, but I found this article you provided extremely strange. First of all, you mention that you are a messianic Jew. No disrespect, but Jewish people do not consider messianic Jews to be Jewish. I am not familiar with the author of this article, but I am not sure why he or you can state with any accuracy that if you "listen to many Jews talk about conservative Christians you'd think they're discussing the Taliban." As a Jewish person, I rarely talked about conservative Christians AT ALL with other Jewish people until this election. If it's true that liberal Jews are critical of conservative Christians, you would probably also find that many are critical of ultra-Orthodox Jews as well. We just don't feel threatened by the ultra-Orthodox Jews in the same way we feel threatened by the conservative Christians. I believe (personal opinion here) that proselytizing is partly why they are threatening. The conservative Christian movement appears to seek to take over this country's government because they believe they have the one true answer and want to spread the word. The ultra-Orthodox Jews appear to have no such agenda. But many of their beliefs make me no less uncomfortable. So, really what I think that many liberal Jews are responding to (if they truly are sitting around bashing conservative Christians) is the same thing that liberal Christians are responding to---EXTREMISM in any form.

This article also appears to say that conservative Christians are donating tons of money to Jewish causes. This is an interesting statement---one which I will ask my rabbi about tonight during a class I take. Knowing how much money our local Jewish community donates to Jewish causes every year, I simply do not believe that the money that conservative Christian movements donate are even a drop in the bucket. Plus, I for one do not want anybody giving money to Jewish people and Jewish causes because they think that Jews are like antiquated pets favored by god. Sorry. That's just creepy. Jews give money to Jewish organizations because they want to support actual Jewish people--not some vague idea of biblical Jews.

Speaking for myself, I could care less about conservative Christians either way. My feeling is live and let live---if only they felt the same way.

[Moderator]

64. Locking.

This thread has become divisive and inflammatory.

It is against the rules of DU to link to conservative sites.

It is also against the rules to engage in personal attacks.