Which of the the '04 red do you not consider to be true red states?

[NNguyenMD]

I say Iowa, New Mexico, Colorado, and Nevada. I think Nevada especially since Las Vegas will tip the balance in our favor by '06 and '08 as the fastest growing city in America, and flexes more of its big city influence over the state's current political demographic.

I would say Ohio too but you know, I'm still very dissapointed in the results, especially after having invested so much money and resources poured into campaigning there.

[KitchenWitch]

1. I concur!

I was unpleasantly surprised that my neighbor state to the south (Iowa) went red this election.

[CornField]

20. Just the Western half

The eastern half (Des Moines, Cedar Rapids, Iowa City, Waterloo, etc.) remained blue. I'm proposing state legislation which will allow Nebraska to take over maintenance on the western half. ;)

[TaleWgnDg]

2. All the so-called "red states" are not true "red states" . . .

Why? Because the premise itself is flawed.

Why? Because within each "red state" there may be up to 49% "blue" voters and still the "red state" remains "red."

And vice versa is true. A so-called "blue state" may have a mere majority of 51% "blue" voters but the remainder of the state may be "red."

The "red state" "blue state" was considered viable to explain The Electoral College, not how the population of America voted within each state or across the country.

And so it goes. However, if you were attempting to ask which of the so-called "red states" had the greatest number of "red" voters, then that's an entirely different issue. . . there's a map that depicts what you are saying . . .

edited to add the map:

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

"The answer seems to be that the amount of red on the map is skewed because there are a lot of counties in which only a slim majority voted Republican. One possible way to allow for this, suggested by Robert Vanderbei at Princeton University, is to use not just two colors on the map, red and blue, but instead to use red, blue, and shades of purple to indicate percentages of voters. . . . here's what the cartogram looks like (above)" if displaying counties, not merely whole states in red or blue. (emphasis added by TaleWgnDg)
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/


edited again to add: Uuummmmm, Ohio? Ohio went for Bush 51% and for Kerry 49% and the divide was approproximately 117,000 after two recounts with a third recount still coming! Crapola!

THAT'S A VERY CLOSE RACE BY PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN STANDARDS . . . hello?

[Swamp Rat]

10. That map looks like a tripped-out version of Pangaea.

:smoke:

[TaleWgnDg]

14. LOL . . . maybe!

. . . . . . . . . . . . .

.

[Ravenseye]

19. The map really makes me think of a disease.

With the red spreading across the face of a blue america like a plague.

[Swamp Rat]

24. Or Rush Limbaugh's liver.

[UL_Approved]

3. I say Montana

The people out here voted for Bush, but they went vastly Democratic in local and state elections. Bush subverted people with the security promise. Pure and simple.

[American Tragedy]

5. Well that's interesting

since Montana has been one of the most consistently Republican states in contemporary presidential politics, considerably more so than my own much-maligned southern red state.

[UL_Approved]

6. You have to look at the in state voting trends

The votes in 2004 came up with Democratic majorities in the state legislature in Montana. Many state offices are held by Democrats. We will see what happens in 2006. We've seen how bad shameless neo-conism can get first hand. We got tired of it. But we didn't make the connection to Bush this time.

[Swamp Rat]

4. There's no such thing as Red States/Blue States.

It's a corporate media construct used as propaganda to create a false polemic.

Divide and conquer.

[Yuugal]

7. I look at it this way

close to 60% dem = blue
close to 60% rep = red
everything else = purple

[Swamp Rat]

9. Uh oh! They still control your mind.

Haven't broken out of that paradigm yet, have you? That's OK, I understand. Eventhough I naturally resisted the sinister forces of the power elite all my life, it took me a while to realize I had been nonetheless brainwashed.

I have a recommendation for you: Turn off the TV for one year, starting right now, and even though it's an arbitrary date used to frame our existence, make a New Year's resolution to read a book everyday. I suggest you obtain and start reading George Lakoff's new book "Don't Think of an Elephant."

http://www.georgelakoff.com/
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/08/25_lakoff.shtml

[Yuugal]

16. Just because I disagree with you

Doesn't mean I am stupid and have never read a book. It also doesn't mean I am brainwashed. IMHO there are states that will never be anything other than deep dark red. Feel free to disagree but when you insult my intelligence you make it impossible to have a constructive discussion. Rather than insult your intelligence, I'll just invite you to kiss my ass.

[Swamp Rat]

23. A bit touchy aren't you.

Is it because I am right? I think so, especially since you are blatantly insulting me now. You could have asked me if I was TRYING to insult you before attacking me. None of what I said was meant as an insult, though you seem quite ready to dish it out. If my brand of humor, fashioned to dissolve cognitive dissonance, is not welcome I will practice it elsewhere.

Good bye. :hi:

Notwithstanding the above, I recommend you read Lakoff's book. The forward was written by Howard Dean.

[Yuugal]

26. so take your ball and go home then

This party is way too full of people who insult the intelligence of everyone they disagree with. Rather than try to educate me on your views of why the blue state-red state meme is false, you fell right into the usual leftist mantra of, "You disagree with me, therefore you must be stupid and unread." Nowhere in your reply did you actually explain your views at all. For that I invited you to kiss my ass. You don't have to accept my invitation but I gladly repeat it.

If you had actually bothered to try and comprehend my exhaustive 3 line post, you would have seen that I don't agree with the red state-blue state logic either as it is generally stated. I don't consider a state to be red or blue unless the difference in votes is large enough to make changing the states color before '08 almost impossible. Do you advocate pouring cash into Wyoming next time around because it is so purple?

[Swamp Rat]

27. Fascinating

Fascinating how you continue to attack me after I explained I meant no harm.

"so take your ball and go home then" - I decided to stay since you want to pick a fight with me. I am interested to see how you will defend your position.

"This party is way too full of people who insult the intelligence of everyone they disagree with." - You are free to leave the "party." I prefer to stay and try to fix it. That's why I recommended Lakoff's book, with the Howard Dean Introduction.

Perhaps you are not interested in linguistics nor learning how to re-frame the debate. Fine. Read or don't read. Apparently you are not interested. Personally, I would have been curious enough to click on the link as I am a lover of books, especially one that is written by an eminent professor of linguistics at Berkeley University and introduced by one of the greatest grass roots, democratic leaders of our time.

"Rather than try to educate me on your views of why the blue state-red state meme is false, you fell right into the usual leftist mantra of,... " - Uh oh, red herring coming up...

"You disagree with me, therefore you must be stupid and unread." - Those are your words, not mine. I never called you stupid nor did I imply it, as you read in my previous post. Again, I never meant to offend or imply those things, but I am quite satisfied that you, and anyone else who happens by, are thinking about the point I was making. In fact, you will be thinking about the "elephant" for the rest of the day. Btw, I disagree with your fallacious "leftist" construct used here as a straw man.

"Nowhere in your reply did you actually explain your views at all." - Well, you attacked me, then I responded by saying I was trying to use humor to break the meme of crayon colored states, and meant no harm. Sorry for breaking the crayons. :D (joke)

"For that I invited you to kiss my ass. You don't have to accept my invitation but I gladly repeat it." - I will be frank with you. This statement, in the context of our entire exchange, is hypocritical and ironic.


"Do you advocate pouring cash into Wyoming next time around because it is so purple?" - Another straw man.

I look forward to see how you handle this post. :)

[Yuugal]

34. flame on

In each one of my replies I have explained why I feel the way I do about the red state-blue state issue. You still haven't bothered to explain your side and instead use the tired old ploy of saying, "Go read this book, go do some research, go learn whatever, blah blah blah". Since you are incapable or unwilling to answer any of my points, there is no point in continuing the discussion.

[Swamp Rat]

36. Nice try, but no dice.

Trying to turn around the argument with no success. Need I point out specifically how I debunked your assertions? Apparently I do, so I will spell it out clearly for you.

You posted an unsolicited response to my statement (post #4):

"There's no such thing as Red States/Blue States. It's a corporate media construct used as propaganda to create a false polemic."

In your next post (post #7), you did not at all address the content of my comment :

"I look at it this way

close to 60% dem = blue
close to 60% rep = red
everything else = purple"

I responded (post #9):

"Uh oh! They still control your mind."

(ha ha! Joke it goes quite well and is explained by my creative Sci-Fi pic - perhaps too abstract I will admit)

Haven't broken out of that paradigm yet, have you? That's OK, I understand. Even though I naturally resisted the sinister forces of the power elite all my life, it took me a while to realize I had been nonetheless brainwashed.

(See, I am a victim too. You are not alone... a empathetic, humanistic response)

I have a recommendation for you: Turn off the TV for one year, starting right now, and even though it's an arbitrary date used to frame our existence, make a New Year's resolution to read a book everyday.

(My little brother, who is a linguist made this very same suggestion to me and I have appreciated it ever since)

I suggest you obtain and start reading George Lakoff's new book "Don't Think of an Elephant."

(Friendly and helpful suggestion for progressives)

Your response (post #16)

"Just because I disagree with you...Doesn't mean I am stupid and have never read a book. It also doesn't mean I am brainwashed. IMHO there are states that will never be anything other than deep dark red. Feel free to disagree but when you insult my intelligence you make it impossible to have a constructive discussion. Rather than insult your intelligence, I'll just invite you to kiss my ass."

My response(post 23): "A bit touchy aren't you. (I am a bit shocked by your vitriolic language the rest is self explanatory)

Is it because I am right? I think so, especially since you are blatantly insulting me now. You could have asked me if I was TRYING to insult you before attacking me. None of what I said was meant as an insult, though you seem quite ready to dish it out. If my brand of humor, fashioned to dissolve cognitive dissonance, is not welcome I will practice it elsewhere.

Good bye. (Smiley: friendly wave)

Notwithstanding the above, I recommend you read Lakoff's book. The forward was written by Howard Dean." - (still trying to make a helpful suggestion with obviously NO bad intent)

Your response (post 26):

"so take your ball and go home then..." - (what are you insinuating, I am a child?)

Now I begin to deconstruct your statements in post #26 (post 27): "Fascinating...

Fascinating how you continue to attack me after I explained I meant no harm.

"so take your ball and go home then" - I decided to stay since you want to pick a fight with me. I am interested to see how you will defend your position. - (which you NEVER did)

"This party is way too full of people who insult the intelligence of everyone they disagree with." - You are free to leave the "party." I prefer to stay and try to fix it. That's why I recommended Lakoff's book, with the Howard Dean Introduction. - (you never addressed this)

Perhaps you are not interested in linguistics nor learning how to re-frame the debate. Fine. Read or don't read. Apparently you are not interested. Personally, I would have been curious enough to click on the link as I am a lover of books, especially one that is written by an eminent professor of linguistics at Berkeley University and introduced by one of the greatest grass roots, democratic leaders of our time. - (no comment by you)

"Rather than try to educate me on your views of why the blue state-red state meme is false, you fell right into the usual leftist mantra of,... " - Uh oh, red herring coming up... - (delineating your fallacious reasoning)

"You disagree with me, therefore you must be stupid and unread." - Those are your words, not mine. I never called you stupid nor did I imply it, as you read in my previous post. Again, I never meant to offend or imply those things, but I am quite satisfied that you, and anyone else who happens by, are thinking about the point I was making. In fact, you will be thinking about the "elephant" for the rest of the day. Btw, I disagree with your fallacious "leftist" construct used here as a straw man. - (delineating your fallacious reasoning)

"Nowhere in your reply did you actually explain your views at all." - Well, you attacked me, then I responded by saying I was trying to use humor to break the meme of crayon colored states, and meant no harm. Sorry for breaking the crayons. - (joke-trying to add levity but to no avail)

"For that I invited you to kiss my ass. You don't have to accept my invitation but I gladly repeat it." - I will be frank with you. This statement, in the context of our entire exchange, is hypocritical and ironic. - (you did not defend yourself with logic, just ad hominem)

"Do you advocate pouring cash into Wyoming next time around because it is so purple?" - Another straw man. = (delineating your fallacious reasoning)

Your next response (post #34) addresses NONE of the above:

"In each one of my replies I have explained why I feel the way I do about the red state-blue state issue." - The ball was in YOUR court since you first responded to me by making an apparently indefensible statement.

"You still haven't bothered to explain your side and instead use the tired old ploy of saying, "Go read this book, go do some research, go learn whatever, blah blah blah"." - Trying to turn around the argument with no success. It is YOU who must explain the nonsense about crayon colored states.

"Since you are incapable or unwilling to answer any of my points, there is no point in continuing the discussion." - Sorry to see you give up, but it has become obvious that you are unwilling or perhaps unable to defend your assertions.

Perhaps you NEED to read Lakoff's book. That's why I suggested it to you. I could have reacted sarcastically, like I usually do with freepers, by saying "go get a lobotomy, you are breathing my air," but instead I offered a suggestion that I assumed would be appreciated by a progressive. Your next response, or lack thereof, will determine the accuracy of my choice.

[Swamp Rat]

28. dupe

grid bug

[mandyky]

8. There are a lot of "purple states"

KY has gone Dem (for Clinton)
Dr. Dan (the senatoral candidate) only lost by 1 %)
We just re-elected Ben Chandler to the House.

I think the red states will stay red if we give up. We must follow Dean's advice and run progressives from everything to local dog catcher to House and Senate seats, and create a progressive base.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

12. Absolutely...

I think we spend too much time concentrating on the "brass ring" of the presidency and not enough time thinking about school board and County Auditor.

[ObaMania]

11. IA, VA, NV, and NM

.. oh, and OH!

[Bridget Burke]

13. The "Red State" versus "Blue State" thing is a construct....

Of the Electoral College, and it's a handy way to keep people divided. I live in Houston, Texas--in a very Democratic district of a "Red" state; there are patches of red in the "purest" of "Blue" states.

Here are some more alternate maps:

www.princeton.edu/~rvdb/JAVA/election2004/

(Isn't Statistics required in Pre-Med?)

[Swamp Rat]

32. Thank Goddess!

Did you see my exchange with another poster above? This type of propaganda has been very effective on the American populace, including me in times past - I still struggle with manipulated language - no one is entirely immune. That is why I am recommending Lakoff's book (Intro by Howard Dean) to everyone. Lakoff is a friendly rival of Chomsky, who wrote this book in layman's language, unlike Chomsky's magnum opera typically written in barely decipherable linguistic jargon (for those of us with IQs less than 200). :D

http://www.georgelakoff.com/

[ArkDem]

15. Arkansas.

The state house and senate are overwhelmingly democratic. Both Senators are democrats and 3 of 4 representatives are democrats.

[Razorback_Democrat]

30. Absolutely!!

Arkansas is Bluer than many would think

but then again, it was just 12 years ago it was even bluer!

Only one really red part of the state, Northwest and west central

I live in West central

[HughBeaumont]

17. I still don't look at Ohio as a red state

Of course, I'm from the Northeast (Cleveland Metro/Cuyahoga County) and I salute the Franklin Co, Athens and Dayton people for compensating for the rest of the unbathed from the Hicksvilles, Red Haws, Wellingtons and West Chesters of the state.

I dunno, maybe we need a new damned governor and FAST.

[Bush was AWOL]

18. I think Ohio turns blue eventually

along with Virginia, Nevada and Colorado. I'm worried about Iowa and Wisconsin though.

[LuCifer]

21. FLORIDA, Nevada, Ohio, Iowa, New Mexico, Colorado and...

...probably North Carolina as well, oh yeah and any other state those neo-KKKon bastards fixed votes in, period, end of story.

Lu

[Hobarticus]

22. Iowa, here...I don't know what happened...

Everything told us we were taking the state for the Dems. Go figure.

[donheld]

25. The danger of seeing states as red or blue

All 50 states are either red or blue by fairly slim margins. We'd better see people as red or blue but not label an entire state as one or the other.

[RUDUing2]

29. I think the truth on MO will come in thenext election..one that is ran by

a respected democrat..Robin Carnahan (daughter of the late Gov. Mel Carnahan)..instead of by Matt Blunt who was ranked as the most partisan electoral official after Katherine Harris...

http://actforvictory.org/act.php/truth/articles/voter_suppression_in_the_battleground_states/
MO

Elections: Bluntly speaking, St. Louis Post Dispatch Editorial, September 19, 2004

MISSOURI SECRETARY OF STATE Matt Blunt is putting together a strong candidacy for this year’s Katherine Harris prize for Most Partisan Election Official in America. For example: Last month, Mr. Blunt - a Republican entrusted with ensuring the integrity of our elections - asked county clerks throughout the state to provide Republican campaign operatives with the names of citizens requesting absentee ballots. The GOP then began contacting the absentee voters. Such contact may violate state law… Mr. Blunt could restore his reputation for integrity, increase confidence in the election and enhance his gubernatorial candidacy by turning away from partisanship. No one wants Missouri to be this election’s Florida. Link

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[politicat]

33. Colorado is definitely almost blue.

We elected a Democrat to the Senate and the Democrats took back control of the State Legislature. Very few of the Republicans who were running here won without massive funding from the RNC, and some even lost with it.

It was a 48/52 presidential race, too.

See you in 06 and 08!

Pcat

[against all enemies]

35. Screw them all, they suck. They would vote for the asshole again.