Wow, the media couldn't have been more 1-sided w/NBA brawl, footage is on

[kuozzman]

FOX right now in slow-mo from Oak. prosecuter for charges against 5 players/5fans. We've seen the players decking guys, but they got whaled on just as bad, or worse, in the stands. Some fans weren't acting in self defense, punching guys in the face from behind.

[bryant69]

1. How do you punch a guy in the face from behind?

THat's some talanted fans.

Unless, like certain Republican politicians, the people being punched do most of their talking out of their ass.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[FredScuttle]

6. You stand behind him or just off to the side

and throw a flurry of roundhouses from the side to connect with the front of his face

The fan whaling on Artest after he went up in the stands provides a clear demonstration

[bryant69]

25. I may not be some fancy pants lawyer

but it seems to me that if you are just off to the side you aren't behind him.

[FredScuttle]

42. OK fine

I concede the point. However, I think what the OP meant to convey was that these punks in the stands were sneak-attacking players (for example, throwing punches at players from the rear when they were engaged with other fans)

[fishwax]

55. It isn't that hard, is it?

You can pretty easily punch somebody on the side of the face from behind.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

87. The punch is called a hook, fired from the shoulder with elbow cocked

the fist connects at 90 degree angle on the side the head. Very forceful punch while turning your upper body into the direction of the opponent's head or kidneys if you are really vicious.

[RUDUing2]

2. so explain again why the players were in the stands?

sorry but IMO the players are in the wrong. Any fan that went onto the floor should also be prosecuted, but the players that went into the stands? kick them out of the league for life.

[DrWeird]

4. They were attacked.

Artest ran into the stands in self defense. The other players followed to help their teammate.

[MousePlayingDaffodil]

7. Artest ran into the stands . . .

. . . in an act of retaliation, not "self-defense." You may to argue that his actions were justified, but let's not manipulate language to make the point.

[DrWeird]

9. Alright, lets say I suck punch you in the face.

What would be self defense and what would be retaliation?

[sangh0]

13. Self-defense only applies

if the defendant is acting under the belief that their life is in imminent danger. A punch to the face that has ALREADY happened is neither life threatening nor imminent.

[DrWeird]

21. I believe the law is life or person.

You don't have to believe that your life is in jeopardy, but that you have a chance of getting seriously hurt.

And Artest had good reason to believe he was in danger.

[sangh0]

39. If you have to go after the person who attacked you

then your person isn't in any danger either.

And Artest had good reason to believe he was in danger.

Onlt imminent danger counts. If it's not imminent, you're supposed to get away and call the police.

[rinsd]

50. Reason to believe he was in danger?

Which part, when the fan was on the floor coming towards him? Or when he went after the wrong guy in the stands?

[sangh0]

57. did you read it?

It said "imminent danger", not simply "danger".

[tx_dem41]

58. Ummmm...Sangh0....I think Rinsd is on your side.

Sarcasm and a little confusion based on your previous post (when you included a portion of someone else's post).

[sangh0]

60. I don't know

but when someone is coming at you, one does have a reasonable fear of imminent danger.

[rinsd]

61. I apologize for leaving out imminent...

I will assume you are speaking on when he was on the floor and Tweedledum and Tweedledee decided they were badasses.

[sangh0]

62. I'm sorry

but could you please phrase your posts more clearly? I don't know who the "he" you are referring to, nor do I know who the Tweedle's are or what they did that makes you say they decided to be badasses.

[rinsd]

66. "He" is Artest...

Tweedledum & Tweedledee are the two fats guys who were on the floor who charged towards Artest after Artest had been pulled out of the crowd. Artest decked on of them and then when the other guy made a move towards Artest, Jermiane O'Neal clocked him(he's the one who goes down like a sack of potatoes)

[sangh0]

68. Well, as I said before

if someone is being charged, they probably can make an argument that they had a reasonable fear of imminent danger. Unfirtunately, from your description, it sounds as if this came after Artest charged into the crowd, which kind of weakens his arguments about self-defense.

[Jack_DeLeon]

49. "Artest had a good reason to believe he was in danger"

from a plastic cup?

[DrWeird]

A plastic cup filled with beer and ice with a lid.

A filled 32 oz. cup would weigh about three pounds. Throw with as much force as it was from height it was as much an attack as any sucker punch.

[sangh0]

65. I hope you realize

that most of those 3 pounds of liquid and ice would no longer be in the cup by the time it reached it's target. And even if it was, liquids bend, so it wouldn't be the equivalent of a solid 3 lbs.

[DrWeird]

71. Didn't even see the video, did you?

The lid stayed on the entire flight, it didn't spill until after it careened off Artest's head. So it was equivalent to a solid 3 lbs.

[tx_dem41]

73. Post deleted

I was wrong on my statement....Google first!

[sangh0]

74. And it's still liquid in a plastic cup

it bends, the lid comes off, the liquid comes out.

I know about this. I've performed many similar experiments at concerts.

[tx_dem41]

75. All purely in the interest of science, of course.

;-)

[sangh0]

78. Of course

You're not saying it was because I wanted to see a lady in a wet shirt, are you?

For shame.

[tx_dem41]

79. Perish the thought! n/t

[DrWeird]

77. Hmm, looks like you know as much about physics as you do...

evolutionary biology.

[sangh0]

80. Another personal attack?

Are you trying to shut this thread down too?

[DrWeird]

81. Et tu, brutus.

Seems if anything, you're the one following me around trying to start something. Dish it out better than you take it, eh?

[tx_dem41]

82. You two crack me up sometimes.

This isn't one of those times.

[DrWeird]

83. Agreed.

nt

[sangh0]

85. In that case

I accept your apology

:-)

[DrWeird]

86. And if I could speak for muslims everywhere

I'd be happy to accept yours.

[MousePlayingDaffodil]

19. What's your point?

Your analogy -- if that's what you're aiming at -- is not apt. If you're standing right in front of me, I may very well be acting in self-defense if I strike a blow in order to prevent another. But if you strike me and run away, and I chase after you in order to strike you back, I am not acting in "self-defense" in any meaningful sense of the word.

What was Artest "defending" himself against? The worry that, if he just kept lying there on the scorer's table, the fan in question would get up, go to the concession stand, and buy another cup full of ice, or beer (or whatever it was he threw), come back to his seat, and toss another one?

Again, you may think that Artest's actions were justified, but calling what he did "self-defense" strikes me as absurd.

[Ravenseye]

72. Self Defense Is Walking Away

If he went and got security they would have removed the guy...Attacking someone who attacks you, is by definition retaliation.

The only way it's self defense is when you are in a helpless siutation and trapped by the person. If you don't fight back, they'll keep hurting you. That is not the situation we are talking about.

Mature people don't throw bottles or punches at other people, and mature people don't jump up when hit and fly into a rage and hit other people.

They should both be in jail.

[Truman01]

8. You can run into the stands in "self defense", that is called

retaliation. Self defense is to get someone to stop hurting you. He ran up there to punish someone. He is a thug. All that should have happened is security should have been called.

Was Artest acting in self defense later when he punched the guy on the floor too?

These guys are rich crybabies, burn them.

TC

[DrWeird]

12. If somebody's throwing things at you that's an attack.

Charging them would be self defense.

Retaliation would be attacking them later as they're walking through the parking lot.

"Was Artest acting in self defense later when he punched the guy on the floor too?"

Absolutely. The guy was on the floor where he was not supposed to be, plus he was in a fighting stance.

[sangh0]

15. Not according to the law

Self defense only applies in situations where the defenders life is in imminent danger.

[TrustingDog]

27. so why are you guys treating this like a news story if you...

think it is wrong of CNN to do so.

Not defending CNN at all, just pointing out that their SHIT WORKS ON EVEN YOU!

[tx_dem41]

30. Who among us said that is was wrong of CNN to do so? n/t

[TrustingDog]

34. oops, got me. It was another thread on the subject...

that CNN was covering this 'event' while ignoring the election fraud thing.
sorry.

[rinsd]

52. Provdied he actually went after the right person...he didn't.

And yes it is completely unreasonable to assume that guy was the attacker in a crowd of at least 100 people.

[Truman01]

88. You are wrong, the fan attack

was not ongoing and a defense would have been to walk away. The fan on the floor was BEING attacked and was not the aggressor and again Artest could have walked away. Of course I'm sure I don't know what I'm talking about, but you just wait for the charges against Artest will follow. Also, I think being suspended for the rest of the season is a clue to how wrong you are.

TC

[RUDUing2]

11. nope he went into the stands and attacked a fan..

he should have allowed the police to handle the fan..there are stadium/arena etc rules and regs in place to handle those type of actions.

When he entered the stands he lost the right to claim self defense and he became the aggressor.

If I am standing in my yard and call you names you can call the police on me and charge me w/harassment...if I throw a cup of water at you, you can charge me w/simple assault, but if you jump over the fence and hit me, you are the one the police will arrest for assault and battary...

The law does not allow for a physical response to a verbal taunt..

If the players felt the fans were out of control they could have requested the security step in and the police be called..and they could have retired to the locker room until control was re-established..

[DrWeird]

18. Alright, let's say...

you're lying in your yard sunbathing. I come up on the sidewalk and throw a rock in your face. Are you saying it wouldn't be self defense to get up, jump the fence, and hit me? I say it would.

[tx_dem41]

26. Lets make a better (and more correct) analogy.

Lets say two people are standing outside your yard. You don't even know if they know each other. One throws a rock at you, and then you jump over that fence and punch the wrong guy. What happens then?

[DrWeird]

29. That's a good question.

If I were on the jury I sure as hell wouldn't convict the guy for assault and battery. Civil case would be more arguable.

[RUDUing2]

36. not according to the law it wouldn't be.

once you left the immediate area, it is no longer justifiable under self defense.

It is only self defense if you are defending yourself from an attack, once you become the aggressor by chasing after someone it is not self defense under the law.

[DrWeird]

40. But nobody's leaving the immediate area.

The object in the analogy is only being thown from a few feet away. Nobody's fleeing the area.

[elsur]

14. You don't run into the stands in self defense ...

... self defense would have been going after Wallace when he put two hands in Artest's face and tried to shove his head off.

Somebody throws a beer from the stands and Artest waded in, running past the guy who threw the beer, and picked out the most sickly looking guy he could find.

They need to get some of the fans as well. I've heard that felony charges are pending against the fan who threw a chair but there are at least 4 or 5 other fans who should face the same misdemeanor assault charges that the players are looking at.

[tx_dem41]

20. As another poster commented....what about the fact that Artest...

went into the stands and hit the wrong guy? :eyes:

[DrWeird]

23. Accident.

Obviously he intended to go after the guy who attacked him.

[tx_dem41]

28. Oh....lets at least call it negligence.

It amazes me that you are incapable of finding fault with all parties involved.

[DrWeird]

32. Dupe.

self delete

[tx_dem41]

35. No....was it unreasonable to start wailing at the wrong person....

when there was doubt (as you admit) as to whether Artest knew who threw it.

[DrWeird]

37. Monday morning quarterbacking.

I'm willing to bet that Artest thought he had the right guy.

[tx_dem41]

41. And since he didn't know....

I think his is civilly and criminally liable of something.

But, you know what, NEITHER of us is lawyers, so ALL this is Monday morning QB'ing.

[DrWeird]

33. Is negligence the right word?

That would imply irrational carelessness, right? If, given the angle it was thrown from was it unreasonable to assume that the missle was thrown by the guy artest attacked?

"It amazes me that you are incapable of finding fault with all parties involved."

Oh, I suppose I could say there's fault in all parties. I'm thinking assault for the fan who threw the beer. And at most malicious mischeif for everybody else.

[rinsd]

46. In a crowd of 100+ people?

"That would imply irrational carelessness, right? If, given the angle it was thrown from was it unreasonable to assume that the missle was thrown by the guy artest attacked?"

I would say that is pretty damn unreasonable.

[Jack_DeLeon]

47. plastic cups are weapons?

Yeah I support the right to self defense as much as the next guy but causing a riot because you got hit with a plastic cup is not self defense.

[tx_dem41]

5. As well as any fan who threw ice....as well as any fan...

who threw a punch in the stands without being provoked, Everyone should take personal responsibility for their actions.

[tx_dem41]

3. Not having seen the specific report you reference, I hope you aren't

saying that this is only (or even more) one person's fault more than another person's. Everyone involved should take personal responsibility and be punished.

[cheezus]

10. I've got a great idea! I'll throw my beer at a very large angry man! yeah!

besides, doesn't the NBA realize that they'd get better ratings if there was a 20% chance of a fight breaking out at any game?

[rinsd]

16. One sided?

First off Artest went and started beating up a fan who had nothing to do with the cup being thrown. That's just insane. He just picked a guy out of the crowd and starting beating on him. If anything that hasn't been discussed enough. More will come out in that guy's lawsuit.

The fans who actually participated in the brawl(ie: throwing punches) have been charged(five of them). One jerk has already been exposed as a liar with a violent history. I don't see what the issue is in terms of one sided-ness. This is a spectator sport where players decided to get physical with paying customers in a non discriminatory fashion(not the perpetrators but open season)

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tx_dem41]

38. Why can no one just state.....EVERYONE involved is at fault!!!! n/t

[rinsd]

45. He tackled the guy...a straight up bum rush...

http://www.wsbtv.com/sports/3938959/detail.html

This link has the video footage and the story of the guy who threw the beer in Artest's face when he was attacking his friend.

"Paulson said Artest started punching his friend. "When he was held down by his arm, Ron Artest had his fist cocked, saying, 'Did you throw it? Did you throw it?'" Paulson said."

It's unclear even on the video whether Artest got a punch in but definitely knocked the guy down.

I didn't excuse the fans behavior and I am glad some are getting charges. You on the other hand seem to be excusing Artest who in my opinion is a complete shit bag who happens to be good at basketball.

[AP]

17. They key thing for the media here, if you ask me: don't ban alcohol sales

This whole thing will be sold as the players' fault so that nobody comes to the conclusion that drunk fans might be a problem.

Notice how much BEER was thrown at the players, by the way?

Alcohol corps dump a lot of money into the media companies which will be reporting this story, so nobody's going to be critical of them. Furthermore, the entertainment companies which own the teams and stadiums make a TON of money from aclohol sales, so they won't want to lose that.

They're going to scapegoat the players.

[AngryAmish]

54. Players salaries also come from alcohol sales

if we are going to blame anyone, I nominate the Clenis.

[AP]

56. Yeah, so you won't see the players complaining too much?

An occassional beer in the face might be a decent price to pay for a fat salary.

But maybe they don't like being harassed by drunk fans and the players might believe that their employers will be able to make up that lost revenue from other sources.

Acohol companies have the power now, but if they were cut out of the picture, you'd see some other advertiser step in. The reason that alcohol won't be blamed is because whomever would replace them as an advertiser doesn't have the power that the alcohol companies now have over how the media reports this.

They'd only have the power if they were currently making money off of basketball.

[kuozzman]

22. I didn't make this thread b/c I don't think the players were out of line,

I was just noting that the media constantly showed the clips of the fat dudes getting leveled. I didn't even think that the players even got punched really, certainly not as much as this prosecutor just showed. I'm really just complaining more about the media's depiction of it, than the incident itself. Especially since I've seen clips of the brawl mixed in with the recent coverage of steroids in baseball.

I also can't believe that Artest decking the fat dude who had his arms at his side was ruled self defense?

[Walt Starr]

31. It's still my opinion Artest should be banned from the NBA for life

Set the example once and that will be the end of that.

It's how the Black sox were treated and that move helped baseball recover some dignity.

[FredScuttle]

44. Even though Shoeless Joe was innocent?

You're a hangin' judge, Walt!

[rinsd]

48. He took the money....

And while he batted well in the Series(especially the game the Sox won), it's difficult to prove he did or didn't pull up on a fly ball or make a bad swing. He didn't bat as well in their losses.

He took the money, he suffers the guilt...end of story.

[tx_dem41]

51. Say it ain't so, Joe...errrrr Rinsd. n/t

[rinsd]

53. It sucks...

I feel for the guy but I don't see the point in reinstating him based on viewing the case sympathetically.

The only question that was asked and answered that satisfies me for sentence is did he take money to throw the series? That answer is yes. It doesn't matter if he later decided not to throw it, screw over the bookies, whatever.

[FredScuttle]

67. Quote from Eliot Asinof, author of Eight Men Out

“I have no evidence to believe (Shoeless Joe) Jackson or Weaver gave less than their best efforts,” Asinof says. “I don’t think they threw the Series. They weren’t blatant fixers. Weaver didn’t even take any money from the gamblers (apparently his only baseball sin was not ratting on teammates). Jackson was promised $20,000 but was paid only $5,000 and tried to turn in that money to Charles Comiskey (owner of the White Sox) and tell him what was going on, but Comiskey wouldn’t even meet with him. Comiskey already knew what was happening and was trying to cover up the scandal.”


edit: to add the cite - http://www.rochesterdandc.com/sports/columns/01118A2TN3B_sports.shtml

[rinsd]

84. Weaver, I do indeed feel sorry for....

So Joe was promised $20,000 and when he didn't get his dough he came forward. Not exactly a noble gesture.

Again it does not matter, the question is did Joe take money for throwing the game. The answer is he took the money(less than he was promised doesn't matter). It doesn't matter if he intentionally played badly or not. The action of taking the money put the integrity of the game at risk. Same with Pete Rose betting his own team to win. It doesn't matter when you are messing with the game's integrity.

“I have no evidence to believe (Shoeless Joe) Jackson or Weaver gave less than their best efforts"

It doesn't have to be blatant. Simply the fact that Joe took money to do so, impugns any effort he put forth.

From the sporting news:

"That the "Black Sox" were selective in their misdeeds was apparent. Jackson, for instance, batted a Series-leading .375 but acknowledged that he had let up in key situations. Weaver hit .324."

http://www.sportingnews.com/archives/worldseries/1919.html

Also these guys have the breakdonws of every game....you'll notice that most of Jackson's hits came in the beggining of the game with the exception being when he got a big hit in the 8th in the 9th game(the powers that be had this as a best of 9 series)

http://www.ballparkguys.com/features/1919_replay/1919_World_Series_Preview.htm

This is simple. If Jackson's hadn't taken the money, people wouldn't suspect him.

[Walt Starr]

63. Shoeless Joe wasn't innocent

And yes, if I were in charge of the NBA, Artest would never set foot on the court again.

[FredScuttle]

69. I would support a ban on life if he went into the stands unprovoked

but there are mitigating circumstances here. Ban him for the season, yes, absolutely. For life? Yeesh...that's a little harsh.

And, BTW, I think Artest is a joke.

[Walt Starr]

70. Nope, any professional athlete who feels th need to go into the stands

should be banished to the stands for life.

Period.

Let security do their job or let the athlete forfeit their job.

[RUDUing2]

76. hey something we completely agree upon. nt

[suka]

43. prosecutor's right!

I totally agree with the prosecutor on this one. Good calls!

[Trajan]

59. This is easy ....

Push or grab someone ? ... it's battery ....

Hit someone ? ... Its assault ....

Chair ? ... fist ? ... foot ? ... Beer cup ??? ..... liquid ??? Doesnt matter .... Assault and Battery ...

Prosecute fan and player alike ....

[American Tragedy]

64. I'd just like to emphasize that it was a PLASTIC CUP for God's sake

I endured worse from some spectators when I was playing competitive soccer, and I sure as hell wasn't getting paid to do it.

[Boosterman]

89. Hmm pretty pleased actually

Seems like most of the people responsible are being charged. No jail sentences probably but thats fine(probably only the guy who threw the chair deserves jail time). Artest is a punk. One who cant even throw a decent punch. Probably best for him he doesnt go to jail.