Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Can somebody cut through the shit on the Patriot II thing?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
Nordic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 03:54 PM
Original message
Can somebody cut through the shit on the Patriot II thing?
I can't make heads or tails of exactly what passed yesterday.

Nobody seems to know what really got voted for.

Anybody have a link to some official way to actually see the bill that was voted in last night?

It sounds RATHER important. May be time to get the hell out of dodge.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's one poster, starting at least 5 threads
all saying something that is NOT true.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Journeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I think that succinctly summed it up. . .
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Exactly. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. That wasn't Patriot 2, that was the 9/11 Reform bill
I don't know the Official name for it. Check the links below:

<http://thomas.loc.gov/home/r108query.html>

<http://www.firstgov.gov/>

Oh wait, the Senate is still debating it(it's only passed the house so far) It's called Conference Report on S.2845, the "Intelligence Reform Bill"

House passed H.336-75
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nordic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. do we know what passed/what didn't pass?
bottom line: Am I gonna have to get a job? :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slaveplanet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Dec 7th 2004
Edited on Wed Dec-08-04 05:05 PM by slaveplanet
A day that will live in infamy.

The US Republic suffered a brutal sneak attack on their freedom.

While much of the tripe was open for observation. There were over 1000 pages that were added to this 3000 page monstrosity. It couldn't have possibly have been read or combed through in the time it was rushed through. Likely more will be added to the senate version. Dr. Ron Paul indicates that it amounts to tyranny...the death of America..the details are not yet open but I'm sure they'll filter out soon. He did indicate that checkpoints will be the norm , no more free state to state travel. The end of freedom of movement.

Governed by surprise...

this relates...

They thought they were free:

A German university professor’s account of what it was like to live during the rise of Hitler. Note the similarity to aspects of the contemporary political landscape.

“What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise, to receiving decisions deliberated in secret, to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand because of nationality security, so dangerous that even if the people the people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him may have incidentally have reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it. Their trust in him made it easier to reassure others who might have worried about it. ‘’This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real crises and reforms too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of the Government growing remoter and remoter .”
“ ‘The dictatorship, and the whole process of its coming into being, was, above all diverting. It provided an excuse not to think for people who did not want to think anyway. I do not speak of your ‘little men,’ your baker and so on; I speak of my colleagues and myself, learned men, mind you. Most of us did not want to think about fundamental things and never had. There was no need to. Nazism gave us some dreadful, fundamental things to think about—we were decent people—and kept us so busy with continuous changes and ‘crises’ and so fascinated, yes, fascinated, by the machinations of the ‘national enemies,’ without and within, that we had no time to think about these things that were growing, little by little, all around us. Unconsciously, I suppose, we were grateful. Who wants to think?” (Ibid.; pp. 167-168.)
“ ‘To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it—please try to believe me—unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, ‘regretted,’ that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these ‘little measures’ that no ‘patriotic German’ could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.’” (Ibid.; p. 168.)
“ ‘How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated extraordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice—‘Resist the beginnings’ and ‘Consider the end.’ But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certainly and how is this to be done, by ordinary men or even by extraordinary men? Things might have changed here before they went as far as they did; they didn’t, but they might have. And everyone counts on that might.’” (Idem.)
“ ‘Your Little Men, your Nazi friends, were not against National Socialism in principle. Men like me, who were, are the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say) but because we sensed better. Pastor Niemoller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke too modestly of himself) and said that when the Nazis attacked the communists he was a little uneasy but, after all he was not a communist, and so he did nothing and then the schools, the press, the Jews , and so on, and he was always uneasier but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something, but then it was too late. “Yes I said” (Ibid.; pp.168-169.)
“You see,” my colleague went on, “one doesn’t see exactly where or how to move. Believe me this is true. Each act, each shocking occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for that one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don’t want to act, or even talk, alone; you don’t want to ‘go out of your way to make trouble.’ Why not?--Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.” (Ibid.; p. 169.)
“Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, ‘everyone’ is happy one hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there would be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences in Germany, outside the great cities perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in you own community, you speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, ‘It’s not so bad’ or ‘You’re seeing things’ or you’re an alarmist.” (Idem.)
“And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can’t prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don’t know the end and how do you know or even surmise the end? On the one hand your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally people who have always thought as you have.” (Ibid.; p. 169-170.)
“But your friends are fewer now. Some have drifted off somewhere or submerged themselves in their work. You no longer see as many as you did at meetings or gatherings. Informal groups become smaller; attendance drops off in little organizations, and the organizations themselves wither. Now, in small gatherings of your oldest friends you feel that you are talking to yourselves, that you are isolated from the reality of things. This weakens your confidence still further and serves as a further deterrent to—to what? It is clearer all the time that, if you are dong to do anything, you must make an occasion to do it, and then you are obviously a troublemaker. So you wait, and you wait.” “But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in’43 had come immediately after the ‘German firm’ stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in ’33. But of course this isn’t the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at step C. And so on to D.” (Ibid.; p.170-171.)
“And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them all rush in upon you the burden of self deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying “Jew swine’ collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in—your nation hour people –is not the world you were born in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed, because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. Now you live in a system which rules without responsibility, even to God. The system itself could not have intended this in the beginning, but in order to sustain itself it was compelled to go all the way.” (Ibid.; p.171.)
“You have gone almost all the way yourself. Life is a continuing process, a flow, not a succession of acts and events at all. It has flowed to a new level, carrying you with it, without any effort on your part. On this new level you live, you have been living more comfortably every day, with new morals, new principles. You have accepted things that your father, even in Germany, could have imagined.
“Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are, what you have done, or, more accurately, what you haven’t done (for that was all that was required of most of us: that we do nothing).” (Ibid.; pp. 171-172) This account is presented so that listeners may compare their own subjective reactions to the 2000 “electoral coup” with the professor’s reaction to the rise of Hitler.
www.spitfirelist.com/f268.html

(TheyThought they Were Free: The Germans 1933-1945; by Milton Mayer; copyright 1955 ; University of Chicago Press; ISBN 0-226-51190-1; pp. 166-167.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. slaveplanet please read
in the future please limit your snips of articles
to 4 paragraphs as per the Democratic Underground
copyright rules .

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Only the House Bill so far
H336-75

The Senate is doing a "Roll call Vote" right now.

It's a delay tactic :boring: to do some "arm twisting." :hurts:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. No problem if you are a border patrol agent along Canadian border
I guess that's what Bush wanted also from
Canada...a demilitarized zone.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
8. I think they just posted the final count
89 Yay 2 Nay

CSPAN asking for Comments

(202)585-3886
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
10. yeah, i need help too
i've been going over the legalese of the bill, and i can't find the part about the national ID or internal checkpoints (granted, i could have missed it, or it could be hidden in there really well)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
11. What are biometric passports?
fingerprints, imbedded dna, eyeball screen?
A biometric entry and exit system will be
put into place with the bill.

and how will these new border restrictions
work with Bush's guest worker plan and trucks
coming from Mexico?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
12. The full text of the bill is available online
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
13. A section on MANPADS
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
14. Anyone know what section 1014 of Public Law 107-56 is?
:shrug: Because it was just revoked

SEC. 5005. SUPERSEDED PROVISION.

This subtitle supersedes section 1014 of Public Law 107-56.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
15. Funding American-sponsored schools in Muslim countries
SEC. 4041. PILOT PROGRAM TO PROVIDE GRANTS TO AMERICAN-SPONSORED SCHOOLS IN PREDOMINANTLY MUSLIM COUNTRIES TO PROVIDE SCHOLARSHIPS.

(a) Findings- Congress finds the following:

(1) During the 2003-2004 school year, the Office of Overseas Schools of the Department of State is financially assisting 189 elementary and secondary schools in foreign countries.

(2) American-sponsored elementary and secondary schools are located in more than 20 countries with significant Muslim populations in the Near East, Africa, South Asia, Central Asia, and East Asia.

(3) American-sponsored elementary and secondary schools provide an American-style education in English, with curricula that typically include an emphasis on the development of critical thinking and analytical skills.

(b) Purpose- The United States has an interest in increasing the level of financial support provided to American-sponsored elementary and secondary schools in predominantly Muslim countries, in order to--

(1) increase the number of students in such countries who attend such schools;

(2) increase the number of young people who may thereby gain at any early age an appreciation for the culture, society, and history of the United States; and

(3) increase the number of young people who may thereby improve their proficiency in the English language.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Uh, why are we paying for overseas schools
Edited on Wed Dec-08-04 06:05 PM by Jose Diablo
while funding to our schools here is being reduced?

Who specifically inserted this and what civilian requested this. Was it a church organization that wanted this tacked on a 'Intelligence Reform' bill?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. I didn't find mention of all the overseas stuff in the Times today
I think this stuff was inserted into the
bill that passed...a lot more than just
setting up a new Intelligence agency and head.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
16. Most of those who voted for it probably didn't even read it...
...and the media is making no effort to clarify it for the American people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. It takes a while
to read and understand such a load of Crap :freak:

Have you ever tried to READ the PATRIOT ACT? Impossible :hangover:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nordic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. that's what's scary
Do we have any ideas what rights just got removed from us?

Can we expect anyone to tell us?

Seems the answer to both questions is NO.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
20. ttt
i'm trying to find out because i told a bunch of co-workers today about the national ID and checkpoints....I later recanted, but I'm sure they all think of me as the workplace 'liberal wacko' now
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Apr 17th 2024, 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC