In 1940, things were fine in Germany

[m berst]

I am reading a translation of the diaries of Josef Goebbels, and it strikes me how normal things were. His biggest concerns were paying his taxes, paying his bills, and his ongoing struggle to get the newspapers to print what he wanted them to print. And then there was the endless paperwork. There is no sense of a man with any sort of absolute power. Everything he wanted to do meant a struggle with others and there was very little that he could simply dictate, despite his high rank in the party and the government.

For most people in Germany things were more or less fine in Germany in 1940. Oh, some were concerned with the war, as there are here now, but for the most part and for most people it was out of sight out of mind, and casualties and sacrifices had been relatively low. And there were some reports about abuse of people in Poland, but nothing like the reports we have all heard here recently. Many were "against" those abuses, and so thought that there consciences were clear.

There were some economic problems, and there was a shortage of fuel and coal, but most people didn't fault the government for that. People were struggling harder to make a living than they had been in the past, but the deterioration of the status of labor had been gradual, and people were happy to have what they had and glad that they had a job. Much as it is here now.

Yes, some academics and radicals were complaining about the way the party was injecting pseudo-science into the schools, and the lack of funding. Much as it is here now.

Artists and writers had been hassled, but it was hard to know to what degree or how widespread this was. There were restrictions on artists and writers leaving or entering, but few were fully aware of that. Much as it is here.

While people knew that the press was not what it could be, and once was, it was still nominally independent, and if you didn't like it - you could simply not read it. You had free choice. Much as you do here with the media. Most continued to read it, though, saying that it didn't really affect them. As most do here today.

Many did not "agree" with the Nazi party, and thought "what can a person do?" Much as it is here now. You had to be a little careful about what you said, yes. Much as it is here now. People were aware of some abuses against Jewish people, much as we here are aware of abuses against Muslim people and Hispanics and others, and while this was regrettable, what could one do about it? Hopefully, many felt, it will get better soon. Much as people feel here today.

Some regretted the passing of the enabling acts which gave the government far too much power on paper at least, but it hadn't been so bad and people who were being alarmist about this seemed to have been proved wrong. There were reports of detained people being abused, but nothing like the reports that we have today here. Most people didn't come directly in contact with these abuses, and they were easy to forget about and life went on. Much as it is here.

Some were leaving the country and warning people about what was coming, but not so many. And few were aware of the fact that the government was making it harder and harder to leave. Much as it is here now.

Once in a while someone posts here at DU comparing Nazi Germany to the United States today, or the German leaders from that era to our current leaders. There are always posters who respond that the comparison is alarmist and inaccurate. But what these scoffers are saying should not be compared is current conditions in Germany from mid-1941 to early 1945 to the conditions here now.

It can easily be argued that there was less cause for alarm in Germany in 1940 then there is here today. By 1941 it was far, far too late in Germany to stop the coming horrors.

[rinsd]

1. Try reading "I Will Bear Witness"....

....it's a diary of a Jewish Literary professor from 1933 to 1942. It's a two parter. Not the easiest read because its an actual translated diary but interesting nonetheless.

[m berst]

2. yes, I just did

I too, highly recommend the diaries of Victor Klemperer. With the two sets of diaries, the picture was made much more complete for me.

[Minstrel Boy]

3. I've read it, and it's powerful, but it doesn't dispell the point:

"For most people in Germany things were more or less fine in Germany in 1940."

Naturally, German Jews had a different read of the situation.

If you were apolitical, not particularly intellectual or empathetic, and not of a targetted minority, things were pretty good. Particularly compared to the crushing Depression, and the widely-perceived national humiliation of the Great War. There were populist social programs such as "Strength Through Joy," and projects like the Volkswagon and the autobahn helped extend the middle class.

The point is, many Germans were satisfied enough to not care, or to care to learn, that they were citizens of a criminal state, and complicit in its crimes.

[rinsd]

4. I wasn't dispelling the point....

...that most Germans had it good. Just suggesting another read.

I'll have to check out the Goebbels diary as well.

[m berst]

14. They didn't even have it that good

Even Goebbels wasn't living high in the hog, and for many Germans life was still a struggle with shortages of food and fuel and stagnant wages and rising prices.

They were able to live in denial, though, and were convinced that they could do nothing about it and had no idea how bad things were about to get. They were willing to continue to go down the road of acceptance and compromise. That is the thing that is most analogous to the situation here today. The go along to get along mindset as things get worse, and worse and worse, until it is too late.

The happy prosperity of Nazi Germany was all propaganda - just glitter and pomp. Howard K. Smith said that by the time he left in December 1941 the signs of deterioration were everywhere - food shortages, buildings falling apart and going unpainted for years, public transportation falling into ruin. All kinds of shortages of raw materials were hampering industry.

Much as it is here today, behind the glossy veneer was a rotting core even at the height of German power and Nazi control of the country.

[bhikkhu]

79. A "superior race", living in denial

proud beyond reason amidst their deteriorating prosperity...as you say, analogous to our situation today. It is amazing how many ordinary people would still consider the US a beacon to the world, the best and brightest of nations, proud beyond all reason, and turn a blind eye to our massive prison population, deteriorating capacity to make anything, and our dismal record on human rights, leading the world into a dark future...

[m berst]

83. some disturbing trends

The US has run an agricultural surplus, exporting more than we import, for 50 years. Until now.

Historically, many more people have always wanted to enter the US than wanted to leave. Until now.

It is difficult to imagine two more quintessential things that have been associated with the United States - "Breadbasket to the World" and "Beacon of Freedom."

Now, we are led to suppose that they hate us for our freedom - which in Reagan-Bush code speak means "hate us for our superior culture."

Agricultural shortfalls and food shortages, as well as people wanting to leave, were chronic problems in Nazi Germany. And the Nazis, too, told their people that the world hated them for their superior culture.

note - I read both of those first two items in passing recently and don't have sources handy to cite. If someone knows of a source, it would be appreciated. If someone doubts the veracity of the statements, I will search for the sources.

[girl gone mad]

133. The Nazis were masterful at lulling the German people..

into that state of complacency. There was an overwhelming sense of inevitability among people.

...This is the way things are going to be, like it or not, so you might as well accept it. You'll feel better once you just accept it...

I don't think the Bush administration is nearly as talented, though they try. When Bush hired that marketing executive to be in charge of their war propaganda, the first thing I thought of was that they must be looking for their Reifenstahl. She turned out to be an utter flop, however. If they do manage to get some decent speech writers and propagandists, then I'll get more concerned. For now, Bush's strength really lies in the weakness of other institutions, including the media and the Democratic party.

[Griffy]

91. SO FIGHT... its time to hit the streets.. the call has gone out!

Rise up... go to your capital sunday, or better yet go to DC or Ohio! Make plans now for DC in January.... dont take this stolen election.. fight back.. the word is speading.. look here..

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bal-op.election09dec09,0,3131082.story?coll=bal-oped-headlines


and here...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/12/09/EDGSVA88P51.DTL

go to 2004 election discussion boards.. we must focus and work as 1

[AliciaKeyedUp]

110. You say "rise up" and "fight"

Care to clarify?

[jdonaldball]

129. Klemperer's "Language of the Third Reich" is in English translation now

Not easy to find but you can probably get it through inter-library loan.

[SoCalDem]

5. Of course US presidents dare not keep a diary

I think they should be REQUIRED to.. But after the Clinton extravaganza, no president will ever dare to record any of his/her thoughts for posterity,.

[babylonsister]

81. Sorry; Think of the tapes of varous presidents...

the records are there.

[SoCalDem]

96. After Nixon, they learned to "zip their lips" and not to write

stuff down contemporaneously.. It's a great loss to future historians..

They all write a book later, but it's not the same.

[Doctor_J]

6. I just ordered "They Thought They Were Free"

from amazon. And I just finished "Rise and Fall..." The German people did not catch on - in fact, life remained pretty normal - until the bombs started falling on Berlin. Hopefully people in the US catch on before * provkes a "preventative war" on our soil.

[President Jesus]

7. I think you're off by seven years

By 1940 Germany was fully at war with most of Europe.

The very noticable removal and internment of Jews, gays, and 'gypsies' from German communities was well under way by the late 30s.

In 1940 the country was under martial law, and there was no opposition party, certainly not one getting 49% of the vote and holding 45% of the seats in their legislative body.

This is one of the most inane statements I read in weeks: "It can easily be argued that there was less cause for alarm in Germany in 1940 then there is here today."

What an insult to people who truly suffered under this oppression. This kind of simpering self-pity is what causes normal people to cringe.

[Sterling]

9. So if he said 1936 would you be a little less uptight?

nt.

[cali]

12. Wow. Way to miss a point. n/t

[Yupster]

90. Yes that would certainly be better

than the comparison to 1940 Germany where 10 % of the entire population was in the armed forces. That's not adult population either. That's entire population.

A similar ratio in America would give us a 31 million man army. If that were the case there'd be a member of every family in the armed forces.

[m berst]

95. that is a good point

The government was using the military enlistment in Germany to some extent as a make-work strategy, I think as part of the plan for recovering from the depression. A small percentage on the men in the army were in combat situations if I remember correctly.

Also, the US has so many agencies from Homeland Security to CIA personnel to Federal Marshals to Haliburton employees and all of the outsourced and privatized personnel resources that it is difficult to put a number on how many people we have doing work equivalent to that done by the Wehrmacht in Germany in 1940.

My interest has been in finding the latest point at which people were still denying the coming storm and the full reality of what was upon them. On another thread I mentioned Victor Klemperer's observation from his dairies that as late as 1944 as the Gestapo hauled the last surviving members of the Jewish community away in Dresden, when someone was arrested the first thing he would hear from his friends and neighbors was "well, he must have done something wrong. They wouldn't just arrest him for nothing." This was, of course, after the Nazis had arrested millions for nothing.

Looking at the writings of Klemperer, Shirer, Smith, Deighton and now Goebbels recently, I feel safe in saying that the average person in Germany would have thought you were wearing some serious tin foil if you hinted at anything that was to come in the next 4 years that we now know did happen.

Here are some of the books I read this fall that contributed to my ideas in the op.

"The Goebbels Diaries 1939-1941" - F. Taylor editor
"Gestapo" - E. Crankshaw
"Blitzkreig" - L. Deighton
"The Last Train from Berlin" - H.K. Smith
"The Nightmare Years" - W. Shirer
"Berlin Diary" - W. Shirer
"The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" - W. Shirer
"This is Berlin" - W. Shirer
"I Will Bear Witness" - Victor Klemperer
"Albert Speer: The End of a Myth" - M. Schmidt
"The War Against the Jews 1933-1945" - L.S. Dawidowicz

Smith's book was a pleasant surprise and I highly recommend it. Shirer is essential IMHO. The Klemperer diaries are moving and heartbreaking.


on edit - corrected a couple of minor errors

[Yupster]

115. Your timing is wrong

Germany did use the military to soak up unemployed, but not in 1940.

In April 1940, Germany invaded Denmanrk and Norway. That was a job mostly for the navy and specially trained troops. Few of the actual infantry divisions were used for the attack.

But, in May, Germany invaded France, Holland, Belgium and Luxembourg. This invasion took every man wearing feldgrau. This was a fight to the death and the army was no longer a place to hang around. There were many more divisions needed in occupied Poland to watch the "friendly" Russians and occupy the country, but that mission was left horribly undermanned because every man was needed oon the "Western Front."

When France fell after June, that left the army's infantry divisions occupying France, Holland, Belgium, Norway and Denmanrk, but also going back to Germany for additional training.

The next mission, the Seaborne invasion of England would take relatively few army divisions, but before many months were out Hitler had made his next and fatal decision. Russia would be invaded in Spring 1941, so these idle divisions wouldn't be idle for long.

Every man who could hold a rifle would be needed again.

[m berst]

119. about 2,000,000

The Germans had about 2 million men available for the invasion of France I think, out of a total of some 4 million in uniform, as opposed to 4 million French, Dutch, Belgian and English troops. The German population was approximately 80 million.

So, yes a high percentage of German men were in uniform. I'm not sure how that applies to the comparison of attitudes between the majority population in Germany in 1940 and the majority population here today. I say "majority" because things looked very different for Jewish people in Germany in 1940, and look very different for minority people here today, as contrasted to the views of the majority group.

Are you saying Yupster that because in Germany there were so many more men in uniform as a percentage of the general population than we have today, that the similarities in attitudes I pointed out are not accurate?

[cali]

10. Thank you!

You said it far better than I did. Particularly liked this statement:

What an insult to people who truly suffered under this oppression. This kind of simpering self-pity is what causes normal people to cringe.

[Sterling]

26. I think it's an insult to the people who are currently suffering

To pretend it is not worthy of comparison to what people suffered during those horrible years. Look I can be just as "offended" as you! :eyes:

I think it's also pretty short sighted to think this is as bad as it's going to get.

[cali]

103. I have no idea how bad it's going to get.

Neither do you. We can try to map out a trajectory, keeping in mind what we know, but that's no guarantee of accurate prognosticating. Suggesting that I'm insulting people who are currently suffering under American imperialism is wrong. I simply pointed out that comparing the state sponsored persecution and death visited upon the Jews, Gays, disabled and others in Nazi Germany in 1940 with the treatment of Hispanics and Muslims in this country today is a historical malapropism. That doesn't diminish the suffering of people in this country who are getting the short end of the stick. It points to the different dynamics at work. As I said, 1936 Germany is a far better comparison vis a vis the zeitgueist and actual events.

[m berst]

120. understood

I agree with you, and that is why I did not attempt to claim that the actions of the two governments are identical.

"I simply pointed out that comparing the state sponsored persecution and death visited upon the Jews, Gays, disabled and others in Nazi Germany in 1940 with the treatment of Hispanics and Muslims in this country today is a historical malapropism."

We would need to look at what our government is doing outside of the country, not merely in the country to get a full picture.

Even if the numbers happen to be different, that is a poor basis for comparison. Systematic arbitrary arrests and torture and killing - yes, state sponsored persecution by our own government - are in fact happening. Do we need to wait until the numbers are equal before we can discuss similarities between the two populations in terms of willingness to support this type of action by our government?

Is human misery and the violation of human rights a numbers game that becomes more immoral when a sufficient number of victims can be tabulated?

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[outraged2]

16. a few points....

Kristallnacht wasn't until 1938, and Jews et al continued to live in Germany-proper though with less rations and with greater limitations and restrictions than the rest of the population. the Wannsee Conference didn't happen until 1941 and that is when the wholesale deportation and liquidation of the German Jews began. Yes, it started much earlier with the ghettoes and Einsatzgruppen (sp?)in Poland and the other protectorates but in this thread I believe we are talking about Germany itself.

[m berst]

17. "most inane"

Why are so many prowling DU looking to identify the most stupid, or the most wrong, or those who might be "the enemy?"

It is impossible to make and prove one's entire case within the limitations of a single post, and it is impossible to get conversation started without making some statements that will spur interest, and it is disingenuous to fail to stake out a point of view in the op.

Why don't you join the spirit of the conversation rather than merely slamming a fellow member down? It is so hard to get a conversation going, and so easy to smash one.

[President Jesus]

19. Because equivocating 1940 Germany with the US today is just stupid

...AND insulting. I'm sorry if that is harsh...consider it tough love.

1940 is the key here.

[Swamp Rat]

22. " ...consider it tough love." - What a BS way to cover your insult.

Why don't you engage in constructive criticism?

[Sterling]

27. Because not only is he the President but he is Jesus as well.

Why should he discuss anything with us? He is here to teach see his will be done. :eyes:

I am offended by how people actually think that the kind of horror W is dishing out is not worthy of being held in the same regard as the horror inflicted on generations past. I see people being killed, tortured and oppressed daily even on the corporate media. Where do these people get off pretending that this is not VERY FUCKING real.

Some people need to check themselves.

[Swamp Rat]

32. I agree. I find it not only offensive but it really pisses me off as

I have family in COMBAT who have witnessed and frankly discussed the atrocities being committed in the ME... on OUR behalf.

Some people need to look in a mirror.

[smirkymonkey]

46. Thank you - I have been arguing that point for years until

I have gone blue in the face to no avail. Because of the lack of EXACT comparisons every step of the way (even though there are many) people turn a blind eye to the fact that something evil and VERY WRONG is taking place on both subtle and not so subtle levels - right here, right now.

And once again, the atrocities will not be grasped fully until it is much too late.

[m berst]

23. not an answer

You are answering "why" with "because" as though repeating the charge makes it true.

My post may be incomplete - I admitted as much - it may be in error in some minor way - it is a point of view, not a doctoral thesis - and it may be rubbing you the wrong way - which was not my intention nor can I be expected to understand that if you don't explain yourself.

To call it "stupid and insulting" though, is mere hostility and not an intelligent response, and is somewhat insulting as well, I would say.

[anarchy1999]

63. Tough Love, President Jesus? How did you ever get 1,000+ posts?

President Jesus? Tough LOVE? Just what exactly do you know about "tough love"?

[bhikkhu]

80. My disagreement

Human nature has not changed, and a year one way or another is trivial. The value in the study of history is not so much the finding of exact equivalencies, but "compare and contrast". Much can be learned with an open mind, and certain mistakes which are manifestly possible may be avoided by studying how similar situations in the past.

With that said, I find enough similarities between our current "New American Century" and the previous "Thousand Year Reich" to make my hair stand on end, to send me back to my books, and to try to learn something which might spare my country and my children a miserable fate.

[SmokingJacket]

114. EXACTLY : whether the comparison is exact is not the point.

Nobody's saying, "Oh, pity us, we're suffering like the Jews under Hilter." Of course the situation here is nowhere as bad -- yet. And how do we avoid allowing it to become so?

By studying what happened then, noticing the similarities, and VOWING not to let it happen again.

Some people reflexively freak out whenever the Holocaust is used as a point of comparison -- as if it's disrespectful to those who suffered then. On the contrary: remembering what happened and how it happened, and learning from history is the best way we can show respect.

Sixty years ago is not the distant past. It CAN happen again -- especially if we pretend it can't.

[Swamp Rat]

21. m berst was right, it didn't take long for you to show up.

"This kind of simpering self-pity is what causes normal people to cringe." - What an abnormal thing to say.

[CoffeeAnnan]

24. Up until Barbarossa the Wehrmacht was rolling over Europe at will

encountering little resistance.The Blitzkrieg tactics and the Panzers struck terror throughout Europe.This produced an enormous amount of self congratulation among the Germans and Hitler and Goebbels were shrewd enough to exploit that hubris to their own ends.This is what made it possible for them to conceal their true agenda.That is why what mberst is saying sounds credible to me.I have several relatives who have lived during that period in Berlin and they will attest to the truth of what Mr.Berst has posted.It is only when the Wehrmacht met with disaster on the outskirts of Moscow facing Zhukov's Army that the myth of the invincibility of the German War machine was shattered.As Shirer remarks that was the first turning point in the psychology of people all over Europe.

We must also guard against using simple numerical things like 49% of the electorate to describe what is essentially a psychological Zeitgeist.Our country, which stood for the primacy of Law in international affairs as in our domestic affairs has become, for the first time, to not just disregard the rule of law but flaunt its disdain for such trivial matters as the Geneva Convention on the Treatment of Prisoners and the UN Charter.And we do not hear any of our Democratic politicians so much as whimper what has been lost.

The treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib, Gitmo and Baghram is a stain on our nation's conscience and yet here we are arguing about some numbers pointing out we are not truly like the Nazis.I have only one more example before I sign off.To see our Congress and our Press uncritically accept a man like Alberto Gonzalez as the new Attorney General after he produced his legal document in support of torture is to have the feeling we have come too far from the land that gave us Jefferson.

[m berst]

29. hi coffee

Excellent points. The disaster at the outskirts of Moscow (on December 7th, 1941 if I am not mistaken, which is an interesting date coincidence)was a big turning point. Howard K. Smith said that he saw a big difference in Germany soon after the Russian campaign started.

I just finished reading "Blitzkrieg" by Len Deighton, and Deighton argues that the initial incursion into the low countries and France was the only campaign that should properly called "Blitzkrieg" and seen as significantly different from previous military tactics. Much of the success against France, according to him, was the result of poor tactics and strategy by the French. I was surprised to learn that much of the imagined prowess of the Wehrmacht was as much an illusion as the supposed prosperity of German society under the Nazi rule.

Many people are looking for something - perhaps they want to see more competence or more organization or more obvious signs of militarism from the current American regime before they will allow for comparisons to the Nazi regime. Saying that any comparisons of similarities are stupid is more a function of misunderstanding Germany at that time then it is misunderstanding what is happening here.

Germany was a failing and disorganized and incompetent society in 1940. The image of it as an efficient war machine, with a unanimity of fanaticism among the public, and a thriving happy Teutonic paradise are all the product of Nazi propaganda from then.

[Sterling]

37. We will see "the big difference here" after the first military catastrophe

which is a heart beat away with the gang in charge of our military at this point. That is one of the more shocking similarities to Germany is that we have purged the military and itel communities of anyone not loyal to the Bush PNAC agenda which weakens your leadership and creates and environment where awful decisions like Barbarossa (Invading Iran in our case) can become policy.

They can't do what is in PNAC without it blowing up in their face. Once that has happened all bets are off on the home front. They will use it to consolidate power out of fear of internal collapse.

[anarchy1999]

68. Maybe full blown "martial law" will be the wake up call?

"Citizen. may I see you National ID card? What is your occupation? Why are you traveling to x for x number of days?

Yes, well have a nice trip."

Think it can't happen here? Just the above happened a couple of months ago. Traveling within state. Note: (the "Citizen, may I see your National ID card?" was a bit of poetic license.) I had to show my DL at least 3 or 4 times to board the plane. No problems, I just want what is going in cargo screened more than my underwire bra.

As a result, complete and total boycott of all airlines from this point forward unless emergency (funeral, etc) or absolute, unavoidable business.

Sorry for the rant and did not mean to hijack this thread.

People, please wake the 'f' up!

[YankeeFan]

51. What about...

"The Phony War"?

Go look it up. From soon after Poland fell until the spring Blitz into France, Holland, etc., there wasn't all that much fighting.

And while the U-Boats were sinking ships, they weren't the shear menace they were for a year yet.

The war was pretty much a nuisance more than anything else at the time.

After France fell, however, things and people got serious. By the way, did you know that Germany didn't completely shift its economy to full War production until the middle of 1943?

[BiggJawn]

109. But Bush hasn't killed 6,000,000!

I think that's what some posters like "President Jesus" are getting at.

I suppose that after he has killed a few million, they'll say "Oh..I wish we hadn't spent so much time trying to discredit you...".

I doubt it.

I don't think the parallels have reached 1940 yet. After Bush stretches our young folk thinner and goes into Syria and Iran, maybe then the comparison will be accurate. At that time, I think we will see more unpleasant stuff going on here at home, too.

[m berst]

116. similar does not mean identical

To clarify, I am comparing things, and one can compare things without having to prove that they are identical. I chose 1940 in part because that is before millions were killed. I am pointing out similarities between the attitudes of people in the majority population. I didn't say that Bush is the same as Hitler, in fact I didn't compare Bush and Hitler at all, and I am not talking about the holocaust.

[BiggJawn]

122. I know you weren't trying to compare with the Holocaust.

Otheres may not be aware of that.
What I was saying is that I think the 1940 marker is a little premature. By 1940, The Wermacht had over-run most of Western Europe. Bush, so far, has only over-run Afghanistan, (and THAT'S debateable) and is trying to herd cats in Iraq.

And while the "final Solution" really wasn't put into full-ahead until 1942 or so, by 1940 there were already people being rounded up and sent to camps and prison. Mostly disenters of Nazi policy and "radical Clergy", with some of what Nazi ideology called "Undesirables". Bush has not yet started rounding up Democrats or Liberals. He's still relying on the RW propaganda mill to marginalize us into impotency.

Gays are probably the group most in danger today, and even then, it's not so much from governmenr pogroms as it is RW hate spewers (again) frothing at the mouth about such ridiculous crap as "The SANCTITY of Marrige" and "crimes" against "Nature".

To cut a long ramble short, I have to say the simularities are closer to the mid to late 30's.

Have to get the "Bush Youth" going first.

[cali]

8. I understand what you're saying but

You're wrong. 1936 Germany would be a far better comparison.
You say:

Many did not "agree" with the Nazi party, and thought "what can a person do?" Much as it is here now. You had to be a little careful about what you said, yes. Much as it is here now. People were aware of some abuses against Jewish people, much as we here are aware of abuses against Muslim people and Hispanics and others, and while this was regrettable, what could one do about it? Hopefully, many felt, it will get better soon. Much as people feel here today.

That's an absurd comment. In 1940 Germany, state sponsored persecution and murder of Jews, Gays, communists, Gypsies, and the disabled was well underway. Hardly is that "much as it is here now......much as we are aware of abuses against Muslim people and Hispanics." That comparison would be laughable if it weren't so tragically wrong.

Of course Goebbels saw life as just peachy. He was part of the party elite. And although it's true that life for the majority was unduly difficult, there was a minority keenly aware of what was going on. I suggest reading Diary Of A Man In Despair by Fredrick Reck-Malleczwen.

[m berst]

20. you misread the post, I fear

Goebbels didn't think he had it "peachy" in the least - that was an important part of my point, and it came as a surprise to me.

"In 1940 Germany, state sponsored persecution and murder of Jews, Gays, communists, Gypsies, and the disabled was well underway."

No more so in many ways than the way in which persecution is well under way here, which again is a part of my point that you missed.

"I suggest reading Diary Of A Man In Despair by Fredrick Reck-Malleczwen."

That supports rather than refutes my point. Many are in similar despair here today. Most are not. Most were not in Germany in 1940.

My main point was that people compare the United States today to Germany post mid-1941, and say that because "it isn't as bad" here as it was after 1941 in Germany, that no case can be made for similarities. By 1941 it was too late in Germany. Right before 1941, the horrors of the regime were not apparent to most. That was the point. I don't claim it to be the final word, or even free from error, but is is a long way from "absurd" as you claim it to be.

[H2O Man]

31. You make an interesting point:

The Nazis were killing people within their borders; the republicans are killing people outside their borders. So it's not exact. And the year may have been off, and for the sake of discussion, that was correctly pointed out.

As I'm always interested in finding new books, could you tell me what "Diary of a Man in Despair" is about? I would appreciate it!

I think that the topic on this thread includes the idea of do we have the potential to kill large numbers of people , in a manner that is similar to Nazi Germany? And if there is that potential, what actions can people possibly take to prevent it? Education is an important thing; I am hoping the book you mention will be on a related topic.

[CoffeeAnnan]

39. As far as killing people within the borders go, I have not accepted the

official version of what passes for truth these days.That brings me to another correspondence between the Nazi tactics and those of our own current regime.The Reichstag Fire and the 9/11 disaster.Remember we are one up on the Nazis on that score too.We have the Gulf of Tonkin "incident" as a significant achievement in our mad rush to war in Asia.

[Sterling]

43. Count me in.

Not that it matters morally but the have the blood of many Americans on their hands. More than we know I am sure.

[H2O Man]

45. I tend

to agree. I could puke when I see Rumsfeld's nasty attitude about the protecting American soldiers. And we are getting a highly filtered view of what is occuring. Very good point on your part.

[Karenina]

57. The policies of *co

within U.S. borders create a shitload of "undocumented" dead. Presto chango! No nasssy pix. No well-kept records. POOF!

[H2O Man]

48. Do you know

that one area where this may be particularly true in the case of Bush is the capital punishment in Texas. I'm not fond of violent criminals. I think that some individuals make a strong case for execution. But as a civilized society, we need to function at a higher level.

This is obviously not an attempt to compare the death row inmates with the Jewish people in Germany. Rather, it is to comment on societies' willingness to view some people as the cause of all problems, and to accept that the state killing people is a good thing.

So I stand corrected. You are right, and I appreciate you taking the time to point out my error. Thanks.

[CoffeeAnnan]

58. You know all of us are struggling to decipher what exactly has gone wrong

with our country in the past few years.But to the inmates of the Texas prison system, the Abu Ghraib tortures would not be new.They have experienced the same level of brutality for years and they will simply laugh at the high falutin' talk of our College Professors.
I think in cases like ours and our unwillingness to concede the possibility that we may have already descended into some of the barbarism the Nazis practised, we are not exceptional at all.Unlike what some right wingers want us to believe, we are human beings just like the Iraqi people, the Vietnamese people, yes, the German people and others.And because we are human, we capable of committing errors, some big, some small. When we recognize our fallibility as human beings, that will be the day America will join civilized nations once again.

[H2O Man]

64. Yes.

Actually, the inmates in the prisons in any state, and the jails in many counties.

[KlatooBNikto]

50. I have one more point to make. I am reminded of what Alex Cockburn

wrote several years ago about our Press and that may also apply to all of us, particularly when it comes to comparison with where we are chronologically in our progress toward a totalitarian state.

Cockburn said that our Press is essentailly totalitarian as demonstrated by the uniformity of the thought patterns exhibited in newspapers coast to coast and the uncritical acceptance of the official line. The second important point he made was that they are trained to ignore the obvious, especially when it pertains to the powerful.

This is why throughout the election season no one was particularly eager to delve into Mr.Bush's past but they did so with glee at any opportunity to dig into the past of his challenger.The same applies to any number of current concerns.

[H2O Man]

52. Absolutely.

If a story is carried on one network, or reported in one paper, it is rapidly covered by all the others. And other stories are uniformly ignored. You make a most important point.

[CoffeeAnnan]

54. Even the nondenial denial that we are far from the Nazis is based

on our exceptionalism.I believe that exceptionalism died for me the day I saw the pictures of the tortures at Abu Ghraib.

[H2O Man]

56. Interesting point.

Because of my family history, I never had that sense of exceptionalism. In my families' past, we have been exposed to both the best and the worst this country has to offer. And so it is at times difficult for me to view it the way others do.

[bhikkhu]

82. Exceptionalism ended for me with Guantanamo

A nation that imprisons people indefinitely without charge, keeping names secret, is no better or worse than the worst we have seen in the last century. How many prisons? Classified. How many prisoners? Classsified. Are they charged with crime? Maybe, maybe not. Are they dead, are they alive? Wouldn't you like to know.

[m berst]

59. the press

Reading Goebbels' diary is an unpleasant task, I should mention, but I am very glad that I picked it up. There are so many surprises and so many things to learn from it.

I had assumed that the party had total control over the press, and I knew from reading diaries and other books by US correspondents in Germany at the time, that they were under a lot of pressure, so I assumed that it would be much more heavy-handed with German correspondents. It surprised me to see that Goebbels had no sense of having total control over the press - quite to the contrary - and also how light his hand was in many cases. Apparently many reporters were going about their business with no harassment, voluntarily writing things that brought no attention from the authorities. And there, as here, some correspondents had access to power, which was good for one's career, and some didn't, and few would break out of the herd and challenge the government.

There must have been a lot of voluntary compliance with the Nazi agenda - unwitting in many cases - in all sorts of ways, small and large. At the same time, apparently at the highest levels of the Nazi party and German government, in at least one case, there was very little understanding as to what was just over the horizon. Goebbels writes about conversations he has with Neurath, Goering, Shirach, Frank, Hess, and many other party and government officials. In all cases, they talk like over-worked bumbling bureaucrats caught up in petty feuds and buried in paperwork, and not as though they had any sense of being masters of anything. Several of them express to Goebbels, and he agrees with them, that excesses against the Jews, the Czechs and others need to be curtailed.

What emerges is a picture of leaders not being fully aware of where and how they were leading people. They should have known, we think, and so should have the German people. Yet the signs of what was coming were no less obvious than the signs we see here today. The German people were unwilling to put two and two together, but no more so than the American people are here today. That does not mean that everything is identical in the two situations, it means that there are some disturbing parallels.

Reading the diaries is very disturbing because we know the hatred that his propaganda stirred up and the consequences of that. We know what was to come. But did he have an inkling of what was being unleashed? I think not. In some ways, that is more frightening than it would be had he known and planned more specifically.

[KlatooBNikto]

60. Somewhere Bill Shirer has pointed out what a bumbler Goebbels

was.Even as the Red Army was smashing its way into Berlin, he was complaining about broken windows and how the secretaries don't show up on time to take his dictation!

But we have clearly progressed way past the Nazis in this department.Our Press by and large voluntarily curtails its unpleasant questions.What is pathetic to me is that they do not even show any curiosity about events or people.They are more like the stenographers that Bob Somerby in his daily scathing summaries points out.

I think our rulers, by and large, have figured out how to manipulate our people.We are vulnerable to propaganda because we believe we are unique in human history and that is drilled into us from kindergarten forward.We think of ourselves as the people who bring freedom and prosperity to people every where.Any deviation from that self adoring image has a jarring effect and we tend to block it.We transfer this belief on to our rulers and think they are very different from the venal rulers in other countries.That they are virtuous men who will use American power wisely and only when necessary to accomplish noble ends. Finally, our propaganda organs in the Press know that our xenophobia and racism can always be counted on to tilt the balance of any story to what our rulers want said.

Yes, we are different but not that far from what the Germans fancied themselves to be from 1933-45.

[m berst]

121. thanks for understanding

The point is not that the Bush administration is identical with the Nazis, of course, as that would be an absurd assertion. The point I am trying to make is this - are the attitudes and reactions of the people here and now similar to the attitudes and reactions of the people in Germany in 1940?

Things were more or less fine for the average German in 1940, in that life went on, unpleasant realities was dismissed from mind, and people were oblivious to the risks they were running.

I think it is a legitimate and constructive question to ask ourselves. Are we doing some of the same things, and thinking some of the same ways, as the people were doing in Germany in 1940?

[cali]

69. It's one of the most remarkable books

I've ever read. The author was an educated Prussian who documented the horror of Nazi Germany from the death of Spengler until shortly before he was executed in 1944 by the SS.
He was prescient in a way that very few are. Tragic, at times funny, wholly original. It's been out of print in English for many years, but can be purchased used at Amazon. There, you will also find some terrific reviews.

[H2O Man]

105. Thank you!

It sounds interesting. (I like "used" books just fine. I go to library sales every year, and stock up on supplies of good used books. Amazon is great, too!)

[anarchy1999]

71. "Do we have the potential to kill large numbers of people,

in a manner that is similar to Nazi Germany?"

Have you read anything this last year and 1/2 about Fallujah in Iraq? Guess not...... you really ought to read up on the most recent developments on how our government (this administration), with the approval of Allawi, are going to "let" citizens of this suburb of Bagdad, return to their homes.

We, the US, our military, we are bringing a new style of "democracy" to the people of Iraq.

I'm Sorry, please don't blame us.

[H2O Man]

106. I guess you didn't

read my post. Histrionics are wonderful on stage; they are less useful in a discussion.

[anarchy1999]

62. I think you might need to go read up a little more, and not insult

elders at DU, especially Sterling. Not a wise move.

Everything said on this thread about the semblance to Germany and "facism/Nazi" is true.

I suggest you read a little more.

Tragedy & Hope, by Carroll Quigley


Also google Operation Paper Clip and then wonder why we are where we are today.

[cali]

74. I know about operation paper clip

I know about Hans and Sophie Scholl and the White Rose society. I know about Adam von Trott and the early German resistance and its different factions and philosophies. Your assumption that because I've reached a conlusion different from yours, I'm not well read, is just shallow. I haven't read the book you suggested. I'll try and find it.

[anarchy1999]

85. I never suggested you were not well read, I only suggested you might

want to read some more.

You can only benefit.

[cali]

100. How amusing and utterly disengenuous

Here's what you said:

 I think you might need to go read up a little more, and not insult
elders at DU, especially Sterling. Not a wise move.
Everything said on this thread about the semblance to Germany and "facism/Nazi" is true.
I suggest you read a little more.
Tragedy & Hope, by Carroll Quigley
Also google Operation Paper Clip and then wonder why we are where we are today.

You insinuated that that my knowledge base was not such that I could present an informed opinion. You told me to google operation paper clip obviously implying that I didn't know what it was. You also told me that everything said in this thread about the semblance to Germany and fascism is true. I never stated that there weren''t apt comparisons, just that the author was making the wrong ones. He posited that treatment of Hispanics and Muslims here is no different or worse than what was happening to oppressed minoriities in Germany in 1940. That's historically inaccurate No two ways about it. What's more, you laughably accused me of "insulting my seniors." Gee, sorry to be so uppity and actually have my own informed opinion.

[m berst]

101. slight correction, if I may

"He posited that treatment of Hispanics and Muslims here is no different or worse than what was happening to oppressed minorities in Germany in 1940."

I was comparing the reactions and attitudes of the people here now to those of the people in Germany in 1940. I wasn't equating the two, either, I said they were similar. I wasn't comparing the treatment of people in the two situations, let alone saying that they were equal.

Comparing pre-1940 prison camps in Germany to Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo I will leave to someone else. The camps in Poland and mass murder come later and are outside of the scope of my post.

Keep in mind that our torture and detention camps are intentionally being kept of off US soil by the administration to circumvent US law.

[Malva Zebrina]

11. Some here have the ability to visualize and apply similarties

based on past events in Nazi Germany and I do not think that is a bad thing. I do not think it is a :tinfoilhat: either.

[seabeyond]

13. good m berst

i agree. i see

[Kellanved]

18. hardly

Just taking my own family as example:
by 1940:
-one of my great-grandfathers had been drafted into the army
-his father-in-law had been killed by the Nazis
-My Paternal great-grandparents were forced into exile in the UK
-one (their) half of the family had been stripped of all civil rights

Initially the Nazis were able to disguise most of the military buildup as social, welfare or job-creating spending. Few wanted to see that all those ships, hotels, streets etc. were for war, not peace.
By 1940 however, most people knew exactly what was happening (maybe not all the details, but they knew what their country was doing). There are pretty interesting statistics about it: until 1938/1939 the Elite and upper middle class rushed into the Nazi party; from 1939/1940 on the Elite and upper Middle Class rushed out of the party...



Anyway, just to give you a timeline:
-1933: The Nazis rise to power; the Social Democratic Party and the Communistic Party get banned, their House Members sent to prison or into exile (many were later killed / sent to concentration camps). Freedom of the press is abolished, the Death-Penalty reenacted.
The Parliament gets it's power stripped away, all Parties and Unions, except the Nazis, disbanded.

1934- The Federal States get replaced by a central Government. Hitler unifies all major offices in his person; the constitution has no longer any significance.

1935- Jewish Civil Servants and Soldiers are stripped from their posts
1936- Jewish Citizens lose the right to vote
1938- Jewish Citizens lose their last possessions
1939- The Nazis ease Gun Registration and allow over-the-counter sale of firearms
1941 the yellow stars
1942- the Holocaust.

[m berst]

25. yes

I am aware of all that you wrote, excepting your family history. I am not seeing what the content of your post has to do with the the title - "hardly" - since you seem to be supporting the idea that it was quite similar in Germany at that time to the way it is here now.

Certainly people have been killed by the current regime. Certainly people have been stripped of all rights. Certainly people have been forced into exile. Your examples all seem to support my point.

To find someone who has a similar story to your particular family's history, we would probably want to look at the plight of Muslim people.

I did not claim that things are identical here today to Germany in 1940, I claimed that there are many similarities and that a comparison of post-1940 Germany to the conditions here today is misleading.

[Kellanved]

30. simply put: I do not see that the US is mimicking Nazi Germany

Sure, a few tactics were used by Hitler as well, but those weren't new when Hitler used them and Bush won't be the last to use them.

Do I dislike the Bush Administration? yes
Do I dislike the direction they try to take your country and the world? sure thing!
Do I think that they will use a tactic of fear and implicating their politic opponents, play the flag card, bend every rule to their advantage and skirt the constitution? yes, I fully expect them to continue all that.


I just do not think that they are in the same league as the Nazis, nor do I think that the assumption is helpful in getting them to fall. IMHO equating them with Nazis is an insult to the victims of the Holocaust, the war and last, but by no means least the Allied Soldiers.
At the same time the Hitler-equations are ideal ammo for right-wing talking heads.

[outraged2]

33. but...

I don't think mberst DID compare Bushco to the Nazis, I think he was comparing we the people to the regular Germans

[bhikkhu]

84. And the nazis of 1940, or 1936, were different

Killing changes people, killing on a large scale changes people even more. It would be a mistake to say that the nazis of 1936 were one thing and had no other course before them but to become the nazis of 1945, with the blood of millions on their hands. Many things happened, many choices were made. Some of those choices we ourselves face as people, and some are faced more exclusively by our military, as was the case in Germany.

[Sterling]

34. You know you left out a lot of big stuff.

That is pretty much the only way t=you could make the point you are trying to make. Because when you tally up the illegal aggressive war based on lies, sanctioned torture and take a look at the PNAC that reads like mien kampf it's hard to to see the similarities.

[m berst]

36. neither do I

I don't see the US as mimicking Nazi Germany. or at least that certainly was not what I said.

Your points, if I understand you -

1. The US government is not as bad as Nazi Germany

2. To post what I posted insults the victims of the Nazis

3. To post what I posted helps the right wing

To your first point, you are refuting something that I didn't say. I am talking about the people in the US and in Germany and how they experienced their government and the conditions, not the governments and the conditions themselves so much.

To your second point, I would say that while we should be cautious about casual conversation in regards to events that caused tremendous suffering, we should also be cautious about calling for the censorship of certain discussions. If we cannot talk about the early warning signs, are we not then powerless to prevent a re-occurrence, and in so doing truly dishonoring the lives of those who suffered and died at the hands of tyranny?

To your third point, while I agree that there is no sense in giving the opposition ammunition unnecessarily, I think that in this case the risk is well worth taking. So many of the things that this administration does are outrageous. How can we talk about this administration at all if we can't say that outrageous things are in fact outrageous for fear of them attacking us for accurately characterizing them with "hate talk" as they say. Talking about hate is not itself hateful, and this idea that it is reminds me of "reverse racism" and other tricks the right wing has used to debase and confuse the discussion.

[Kellanved]

41. no, I did not want to say that

I do not think that your post was insulting to anyone. You have every right to raise those points.

Yes, I agree with you on almost all points, especially the illegal war in Iraq. My issue is with using specific date tags to anchor your very valid points to Nazi Germany.

[m berst]

44. ah, yes the date

I chose 1940 because 1940 was so similar to 1932 and so unlike the end of 1941. That was to illustrate my point - things may be a lot worse than they seem to be, rather than a lot better.

It surprised me to read the mundane day-to-day concerns of a man in the power elite in the government and the party. That, combined with the diaries I have read by everyday citizens, showed me that there was an amazing lack of alarm throughout German society. we know now, of course, how the story turns out. But not many at the time were ready to even face the possibility that it could turn out anything near to how it did turn out.

The only value in comparisons between tyranny from the past and tyranny today is as a preventative. If we wait to do a retrospective it won't be of much value, especially if people in the future also fail to heed the warnings contained in our retrospective view, just as we fail to heed the warnings contained within the retrospectives on the Nazi era.

Another similarity between the US today and Germany in the 30's that I see, is the ever diminishing sense of alarm in the face of ever greater cause for alarm. 30 years ago the slightest sign of tyranny was cause for concern and alarm. Today many people say "it isn't that bad" even though objectively there are far more warning signs today than there were 30 years ago. What mechanism could be at play there? Increasing risk producing decreasing alarm? It seems possible to me that it could be denial at work.

[Kellanved]

49. OK

Sorry should my posts have been insulting, it is far too late for me to post. (coherently anyway). I have to deal with real Nazis on a regular basis and the (quite fashionable) Bush line isn't helping.

You should read Haffner: "Defying Hitler".

[m berst]

53. no worry, thanks

I want to read Haffner. Thanks for mentioning it.

I grabbed a paragraph from a review at Amazon, and a description.

<snip>

What was it about Germany that made the rise of Adolf Hitler and his murderous regime possible? That troubling question has occupied many fine minds over the last six decades, few more lucid and thoughtful than the late historian and journalist Sebastian Haffner. In this book, drawn from a manuscript he did not live to complete, Haffner examines the social and cultural conditions that made Germany ill-equipped for democracy and ripe for totalitarianism. Among these, Haffner writes, were a generational war between an apathetic adult population and a youth "familiar with nothing but political clamor, sensation, anarchy, and the dangerous lure of irresponsible numbers games"; a fatal fondness for the winner-and-loser dichotomy of sports and a rage for spectacle and entertainment; a resignation through which ordinary people came to "adapt to living with clenched teeth, in a manner of speaking," rather than stand up in protest. In that climate, Haffner--who left Germany just before World War II broke out--suggests, Nazism was almost an inevitability, against which he, too, tried to withdraw into "a small, secure, private domain," like so many others of his time and place. An important eyewitness account, Haffner's book deepens our understanding of how small missteps can lead to tragic ends, and how nations can be led into chaos.

<snip>

Defying Hitler: A Memoir
by Sebastian Haffner

Written in 1939 and unpublished until 2000, Sebastian Haffner’s memoir of the rise of Nazism in Germany offers a unique portrait of the lives of ordinary German citizens between the wars. Covering 1907 to 1933, his eyewitness account provides a portrait of a country in constant flux: from the rise of the First Corps, the right-wing voluntary military force set up in 1918 to suppress Communism and precursor to the Nazi storm troopers, to the Hitler Youth movement; from the apocalyptic year of 1923 when inflation crippled the country to Hitler’s rise to power. This fascinating personal history elucidates how the average German grappled with a rapidly changing society, while chronicling day-to-day changes in attitudes, beliefs, politics, and prejudices.

on edit, the link to Amazon for this book -

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312421133/104-0482935-4795149?v=glance

[CoffeeAnnan]

55. mberst, thanks for a very fine post that has led all of us into very

fruitful and intelligent discussions tonight.The sense of loss of what our country was at one time and what it has become is very palpable.It is only by sharing the truths that are apparent to each one of us can we become a truly Democratic and civilized nation.This has nothing to do with winning or losing elections.It has everything to do with what Norman Mailer has called showing a "modicum of honesty" in all our coversations with each other.Thanks and good night.

[bvar22]

70. Comparisons are NOT equations.

[sweetheart]

35. It seems people are unimaginative

Of course the systems of abuse will be different between a 30's/40's
germany and a 2000's USA.

Black people are overwhelmingly present in the prisons, beyond
demographics. Were an invading power to "liberate" our prisons,
surely they'd note that they were race prisons.

As well, cannabis smokers are taken from jobs and thrown in prisons,
and as well other drugs users... people with MS taking cannabis for
serious pain. There have even been cases of people being killed in
prisons by being taken away from medication (not cannabis), whilst
arrested for drugs.

If we were to, with an impartial observer's eyes, see the various
minorities that are already persecuted in the Bush regime, the
similarities with 1940's germany are striking.

Our prison population is the largest of any industrialized nation,
and one has to ask if that does not bear some similarity to the
concentration camp system. Given that rape and torture are normal
behaviours in american prisons, the similarity grows. Given that
as much as half of the prison population is there due to a political
drugs gambit to imprison liberals and deny them voting rights, it
goes further.

I think mr bush and his criminals have studied hitler and are not
planning to make the same mistakes in terms of "obvious" activities
of war and foreign policy divisiveness. They, IMO, believe that
the've got the world out-smarted, and have only to keep up with the
war plans to come out as the winning empire.

Nazi Germany, for all its crimes, made the mistake of losing. Bush
plans to retire and be buried in proud memory, as though their
destruction is subtle and may not even be attributed to them, but
rather a general american decline.

[m berst]

86. "Black people are overwhelmingly present in the prisons.."

Just as in Germany in the 30's, different people experience the country they are living in differently.

This reminds me of a young man in my neighborhood in Detroit, Erick. Erick was a thoughtful and quiet young man, who liked to read and discuss issues more than he liked the non-stop neighborhood basketball games, so he often gravitated down to visit the odd, eccentric musician's house on the block - that would be me. I always had interesting music and interesting books and various projects going on that he would pitch in on, and I was always glad for his company. Both his parents were working, and he had 5 siblings, so my place was a nice escape for him.

Anytime we needed anything for a project, like grass seed or a tool, say, we of course had to drive out north of 8 Mile Road and into the suburbs to find a store. As often as not it seemed, we would be stopped by the suburban police - "just checking" - you know. In the stores, Erick would be the recipient of many suspicious looks and followed around by store detectives.

A brilliant, studious, and thoughtful young man. A very dark-skinned teenager in an alien and hostile world. What does America look like to him?


on edit - missing word added

[Sterling]

28. I see a lot of parallels with what you posted

and what we see happening today, just not to YOUR family. But many families have lost people since the rise of Imperial America. Many people have been locked up without trials and many people have been tortured.

Countries have been invaded under false pretexts. Laws have been passed that have diminished our rights against the government.

I think the original post made a lot of great points that none of the people offended by it have yet addressed.

[Kellanved]

38. well

I do not say that the original poster does not have a point. That point being: many people do not care about the politic system they are living in (until it is too late).

I disagree with the 1940 date tag. 1935/1936/37? possibly, in 33,38,39,... Germans were quite aware about their government's nature. You see, if it were 1940 (or rather any year in Nazi Germany they started with that in 33) all over again , the Democratic House Member and Senators wouldn't be on Capitol Hill, but in a Concentration Camps in the outskirts of Washington D.C. .

[Sterling]

40. Yes I too think we are pre big event Germany.

that big event being the global conflagration that started after they invaded Poland. We are more like post Chzech invasion Germany.

Reality is our Hitler is not exactly like their Hitler and our path will not mirror theirs to every last detail. Ours may take longer, or perhaps be over in a blink of W's eye with a full blown Nuclear Holocaust?

Point is we are in deep shit and should be able to read the writing on the wall from understanding human history and the context in which we live.

[Minstrel Boy]

47. "We are more like post Czech invasion Germany"

I think that's an excellent analogy.

The appeasement period is over, and a formidable anti-Bush alliance is taking shape. Lines are being drawn around Iran by Russia, China and other powers. A necon move against Iran would be the trigger event for a global conflict.

[bvar22]

73. Instead of imprisoning the Democratic Party,

...the NeoCons have infiltrated and neutered it.

The Democratic Party has been reduced to a token presence. They are locked out of sessions where the important pieces of legislation are written, and then only allowed to see it for a few minutes before voting. In the rare occasions where the vote doesn't go as planned, the Neocons simply keep the voting session open until enough threats are made to swing the vote their way.

Yes, the Democrats haven't been jailed yet, but they have been effectively stripped of power.

And then there was that episode in Texas where Delay commanded the Homeland Security Dept. to find and arrest the Texas Democrats.

[m berst]

88. The Enabling Act of 1933

"The government will make use of these powers only insofar as they are essential for carrying out vitally necessary measures...The number of cases in which an internal necessity exists for having recourse to such a law is in itself a limited one."

- Adolph Hitler to the Reichstag

In 1933 the newly elected representatives to the German Reichstag met to consider passage of a piece of legislation introduced by the Nazi party - Ermächtigungsgesetz - the Enabling Act. It was officially called "Gesetz zur Behebung der Not von Volk und Reich" or in English the "Law for Removing the Distress of the People and the Reich."

Most of the "distress" the people were experiencing, we now know, was caused by the Nazi party itself.

The Nazi party did not have sufficient votes to pass this legislation. The 31 votes they needed came from the opposition after the Nazis promised to sunset some of the provisions.

One man, Otto Wells, leader of the Social Democrats objected. He stood up and spoke quietly to Hitler during the session.

"We German Social Democrats pledge ourselves solemnly in this historic hour to the principles of humanity and justice, of freedom and socialism. No enabling act can give you power to destroy ideas which are eternal and indestructible."

Hitler replied - "You are no longer needed. The star of Germany will rise and yours will sink. Your death knell has sounded."

With that, the Reichstag voted to give the administration virtual dictatorial powers to fight Communism and terrorism by a vote of 441 for, and only 84 against.

The provisions of the act:

1. Other than through the procedure prescribed by the constitution, laws of the Reich may be decided upon by the government of the Reich as well.

2. Laws decided upon by the government of the Reich may deviate from the provisions of the constitution insofar as they do not affect the institutions of the Reichstag and the Reichsrat as such. The constitutional rights of the Reichspräsident shall remain intact.

3. Laws decided upon by the government of the Reich shall be issued by the Chancellor and announced in the Reich Law Gazette. They shall take effect on the day following the announcement, unless they prescribe a different date. The articles 68 to 77 of the constitution shall not be applied to laws decided upon by the government of the Reich.

4. Contracts of the Reich with foreign states which affect matters of Reich legislation shall not require the approval of the bodies concerned with legislation. The government of the Reich shall issue the prescriptions required for the execution of such contracts.

5. This law shall take effect with the day of its announcement. It shall become invalid on April 1, 1937 or earlier, if the present Reich government is succeeded by a different one.



Compare this to the Patriot Act.

[jdots]

42. i thought all points were taken well

It is history and written in so many perspectives.One thing that has come up is the quest for oil which figures into WW2 but doesn't get much mention.Japan & Germany wanted oil,now America wants oil.
Cover it in flag waving,religion,race purity and economics.
Population,oil then water,are we smart enough to face the facts and think our way out of these things ?
Notice an anti intellectual trend that comes with power,I have to ask the question again.Are we here on earth to entertain ourselves or educate ourselves ?The two have to be combined or it's another planet down the tubes.

[Chicago Democrat]

61. Excellent post, well done....

Of course in only 5 short years he and Magda Geobbels killed there 5 beautiful children amid the ruins of Berlin.

[m berst]

65. oh yes

That is the most disturbing thing in the book, now that you mention it. So much so that I forgot about it. A day does not go by that he doesn't talk about his beautiful children in his diary, with much love and affection. I cringe every time I read one of those passages because, of course, he will soon be murdering them all. Very chilling.

[Chicago Democrat]

67. 1940 Germany = 2004 USA a short 64 years and the parallels are glaring

and Oh so OBVIOUS.

[sir_captain]

66. This is probably the stupidest post I have ever seen here

[m berst]

72. the word stupid

This word gets thrown around a lot as an insult. Let's check the meaning of the word so we know what we are talking about.

1. lacking or marked by lack of intellectual acuity
2. dazed, stunned, stupefied, in a state of mental numbness especially as resulting from shock

hmmm...

The German word for this idea is dummkopf which I know was widely used by Nazis to taunt people.

Perhaps we have another parallel here? The increased use of the word "dummkopf" in Germany in the 30's, and the increased use of the word "stupid" (by adults) here today.

Perhaps when DUers call other members or their posts stupid, they mean it as something they wish upon them - "I would like to daze or stun you because I don't like what you are saying" and calling them stupid is a precursor to violence? That was certainly true in Nazi Germany. Calling a person stupid led to stupefying the person with blows to the head.

That is a common thing in societies that are leaning toward barbarism and violence, I think. We call people that which we would like to inflict upon them. Call people lazy and then throw them out of work. Call people dirty and then deny them soap and water. Call people dangerous and then taunt them and torture them until they are angry. Call people stupid, and then lie to them and confuse them. Call people animals, and then put them in cages. Call them criminals, and then outlaw legal things they are already doing.

[anarchy1999]

76. Thanks for your post tonight.

We agree with everything you say as do many others. We are a very small percentage, even here at DU.

So be it.

[Amaya]

77. Ridiculous

nuff said.

[babylonsister]

92. I am very impressed, again, at

the thoughts and knowledge I glean from this forum, in so many ways, from so many minds! The fact that we can do this freely is awesome! I love being an American for this reason!

[bhikkhu]

93. We hate in others the reflections of our own weakness

...is the more psychological approach, which I imagine most people could test in practice. What we hate is what we contend with in ourselves, and recognizing this certainly leads to less criticism, more constructively made.

[anarchy1999]

75. How incredibly rude, sir!

This is by far not the "stupidest" and just what is your definition of stupid.

There are so many ways to respond I simply can't say anything but shut up and go do some research.

[Cleita]

78. No it isn't. You should start reading up on the Third Reich

sir_captain. The parallels should scare you. But we aren't Germans aren't we? We are even scarier. They never had nukes.

[Yupster]

94. If this was like 1940 Germany, most of us at DU

(males at least) would be in the armed forces.

And the ones of us calling the government the worst names would be disappeared instead of posting their opinions on the internet.

And we wouldn't be questioning elections because they were a thing of the past too.

[m berst]

97. true

There are some things that are better now, and some that are worse.

We may be teetering on the brink of seeing some of the more obvious outward manifestations of tyranny to which you are alluding. Once the government has the power and the will to clamp down, it can happen very quickly.

All European countries had a lot of people in uniform in the 30's, so that isn't the best comparison. There are differences due to technology and different theories of logistics and organization. Today's US Army doesn't need a huge contingent of men to groom and re-shoe horses, for example, as the German army did. The US Army is privatizing many functions that were handled by uniformed soldiers in Germany. Germany was not exceptional in the number of men it had in uniform, as France actually had more men in service before the Germans invaded, as well as more tanks - and more modern tanks - and more military aircraft.

Many Germans were still getting radio news from outside of Germany, but the authorities were about to clamp down. Smith talked about that in his book, but I don't remember the time line. Mail was still passing across the border, I believe. Goebbels outlawed opposition newspapers from Switzerland in 1940, as he mentions in his diaries. Foreign correspondents were just beginning to be pressured and hassled going in and out of the country then, as is happening here now.

There were still many critics of the government in 1940, because Goebbels talks of his frustration with them almost every night, and his inability to stop them.

[Zorra]

117. Huh. WP: Measure Expands Police Powers

Measure Expands Police Powers
Intelligence Bill Includes Disputed Anti-Terror Moves

By Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, December 10, 2004; Page A01

The intelligence package that Congress approved this week includes a series of little-noticed measures that would broaden the government's power to conduct terrorism investigations, including provisions to loosen standards for FBI surveillance warrants and allow the Justice Department to more easily detain suspects without bail.
snip----
But civil liberties advocates and some Democrats said the measures would do little to protect the public while further eroding constitutional protections for innocent people caught up in investigations.
snip----
One key change is a provision in the new intelligence package that targets "lone wolf" terrorists not linked with established terrorist groups such as al Qaeda. In language similar to earlier Senate legislation, the bill would allow the FBI to obtain secret surveillance and search warrants of individuals without having to show a connection between the target of the warrant and a foreign government or terrorist group.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A53452-2004Dec9?language=printer

[Forkboy]

125. I think you just took over that top spot

[Maddy McCall]

87. You are aware that Goebbels was the chief propagandist for the...

Nazi government???

[m berst]

89. of course, yes

Hi Maddy.

:hi:

on edit - Maybe you are saying that he therefore is a poor source? These are his private diaries, or survivng parts of them, that I am reading. There is no indication that he ever expected them to be made public, and they read as though they were rambling private musings. They are repetitive and mundane in large part, and he makes no effort to present a good image of himself, the party, or the government. I think they are an accurate glimpse behind the scenes. He is self-deluded, no doubt about that, but that is part of what makes them valuable.

Glad to see you survived the battles over you-know-what the other day and were vindicated.

[rman]

98. some academics and radicals were locked up,

"for their own protection". the nazis had created a law especially for that purpose. and those academics and radicals were the lucky ones, some others were just killed.

also many anti-jew laws had already been passed and Kristallnacht had already taken place (which went way beyond "on paper").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht

not to deminish the rising fascism that we see now, but i'm not so sure there was less cause for alarm in Germany in 1940 then there is in the US today.

everyone should see the docu movie "Hitler: the rise of evil"

[m berst]

99. the film

Is that the made for television film from last year? I will try to find it if you think it is good.

I think we have our own version of anti-Jewish laws with the war on drugs, the immigration wars, and now the war on terrorism. If you weren't a Jewish person in Germany in the 30's you may not have thought that there was much of a problem there, and today if you are a white person, you may similarly make the mistake of thinking that there is no problem here.

If we take one isolated fact out of historical context and then compare it to conditions today we won't be able to draw very many useful conclusions. The Nazis didn't censor the Internet in the 30's and the Republicans today aren't wearing swastika armbands - silly examples, of course, to make the point.

We certainly do have a lot of people locked up in the US. But then, they are all "criminals" right? Don't forget though, in Germany in the 30's that is what the average person would have said about the people they had locked up. They were all "criminals" that had been arrested. As I pointed out on another post, as late as 1944 when people were picked up by the Gestapo, it was very common for people to say "well, he must have done something wrong. They wouldn't arrest someone for no reason."

Don't look at the freedoms people in the majority group enjoys to judge the society. Look at the minority communities.

The plight of African American people, Hispanic people, and Arab American and other Eastern and Middle Eastern people has somehow become invisible to many Americans, even among liberals. Just as the plight of the Jews was invisible in Germany in the 30's.

[Swamp Rat]

102. The plight of a lot of folks is completely ignored

From the homeless on the streets in San Francisco that CEOs step over as they enter their office buildings to Jívaro Indians dying from Agent Orange supplied by the US military to destroy cocaine crops to young children locked away in Calcutta being worked to death at the looms for 18 hours a day to make rugs for Pier One Imports.

People just don't give a fuck as long as they have it good.

[m berst]

104. so true

The elderly are another group of hidden people, Swamp Rat.

I was working in nursing homes for a long time doing musical therapy sessions and presentations, and once when a friend was visiting from California we were driving around Detroit. I was talking about the hidden elderly right in our midst, and every minute or less, mile after mile, I would point out another place where I had worked. After I had pointed out about 40 he was completely shocked. He had never noticed and he never would have had I not been with him. People drive by these places every day and have no idea how many lonely people are housed there.

There are many, many invisible people. I sometimes think that it is only a very small minority of people whom we do notice and we think of them as representative and ignore the other 90%. Most people have been left far, far behind this wonderful rat race, and have disappeared from view.

That is what makes it so difficult to talk about politics now, because you have to talk about that which people can't see, even though they are tripping right over it.

Klemperer talks in his diaries about disappearing from the view of the average German. They didn't look at him, talk to him, walked right into him, averted their gaze. Old friends and colleagues who weren't Jewish stopped calling. He didn't exist, except on some Homeland Security list that some uniformed thugs used when they wanted victims for their sadism.

How do we get people to stop focusing on what they see, and start thinking about what they aren't seeing?

[Swamp Rat]

107. Good question...

I use "art" to get folks riled up. If some get past their anger (at me) and begin to do some self-reflection and re-evaluate their personal belief system, then I have achieved something. Most folks are not literate in that they need pictures to give them information, which makes them very susceptible to carefully placed words and phrases (I recommend George Lakoff's book "Don’t Think of an Elephant," forward by Howard Dean, on re-framing the debate) and propaganda.

I agree with John Lukacs, who wrote "At the End of an Age," that the age of literacy is over. Americans have been dumbed down and willingly accept 20 second homilies from TV idiots like Bill O'Reilly as legitimate news and information.

I know what you mean by elderly folks. When I was working on a music degree I used to volunteer for a choir that went to "homes" for the elderly (miserable places) during holidays. I will NEVER do that to my parents! After living in Costa Rica and Brasil, I saw how much better they treat their elderly (in general), as they take care of them until they die - at HOME. What the fuck is wrong with some people?!

[Q]

108. Thanks for this thoughtful thread...

....I enjoyed reading 'most' of it...except for the 'stupid' remarks by some.

Many Americans are grasping at understanding what's going on in their country. Some seem to think that 'this too shall pass' and that Bush* is nothing more than a blip on the radar screen of history.

"You are either with us, or with the terrorists".

"Everything has changed since 911".

War has become the answer, not the question. Diplomacy is for weaklings. Torture is acceptable under certain conditions. The rule of law doesn't apply to the commander in chief during a 'time of war'. The CIC has a 'mandate' and thus can rule with an iron fist. The Geneva Conventions is 'quaint'. The Bill of Rights in 'antiquated'.

The Neocons and their fanatical religious partners have been planning the 'takeover' of the US government for literally decades. They were waiting for the 'perfect storm' in politics...where all branches of government are under their control and the 'right people in the right places' to do their bidding.

The next four years will tell everything. The rest of the world is waiting to see which direction we will take.

[m berst]

123. thank you Q

I have long admired your contributions here, and used to quote you often on the Clark board.

It is difficult to open this area of discussion without falling into the trap of people forming two warring camps on the issue. One side will say "the Nazis are here!!!" and the other side will be offended by any comparison at all. This has the effect of closing off any meaningful discussion and making the lessons from history unavailable to us.

Had I put the title at the end of the post, and opened it with "are comparisons valid" it would have gotten no attention. Had I said 1932 instead of 1940, it would have reinforced the idea that we have plenty of time. Had I said 1944, then the death camps and the Russian campaign would have dominated the discussion. In each case, the battle lines would have been drawn and personal insults would fly until the thread was trashed.

There is a tendency for people here, and in the general population to see everything in stark and contrasting either/or and us versus them terms. I would argue that this is a feature of a country that is sliding toward totalitarian rule, ironically. There is a great post at Kos today that addresses this subject very well.

The author says that unity is the wrong goal, and I would add that it is an elusive goal.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/3/14456/5254

<snip>

Unity in the end isn't democratic, it is fascist, especially if it requires uniting around oppressive or inequitable or unjust positions. The desire to feel strength in the power of numbers is, I'd suggest a cowardly one. To have everyone accept your tenets, your definitions, your values and your policies is a recipe for stagnation.

Solidarity on the other hand, provides support and the possibility for a common cause without requiring the relinquishment of differing interests. It expands the discussion, the process and the possibilities. We don't all need to agree, and we don't even help each other if we do. Solidarity is what politics and what community is about, not forcing single issues, solutions, identities or approaches, but about forging connections.

Solidarity is more than compromise, and shouldn't be mistaken as such. At its core is respect: respect for people and their experiences, respect for possibility, respect for the not-yet-known. It doesn't require assimilation (which must always contain some degree of erasure) and it belies two-dimensional (black and white) thinking.

This is the kind of work that needs to be done now. Its a small place to start, but begin here, with the difference between a politics of unity and a politics of solidarity and see the different directions they each yield. Then make that part of the move to rebuild maintain and rebuild a progressive and democratic America.

<snip>

[Dragonfly]

111. Important and timely post to me because

I just finished reading the recently published fictional novel "Plot Against America," by excellent writer Philip Roth. Premise is that America Firster Charles Lindbergh defeats FDR in the 1940 election on an isolationist platform. Shows what starts to happen to the Jewish population in Newark, then around the nation. Two weeks ago, I finally saw "The Pianist," watching what gradually occurred to the Warsaw, Poland normalcy during the '30's.

Dan Hamburg, former California congressman just arrested in Ohio for challenging the election results, graduated from high school in my city (St. Louis) the same year I did ('66). This is a bright and caring man who sees with great depth.

M berst has done a good job of framing the current alarming state of national affairs, IMHO. Thanks.

[tinanator]

112. Frog Soup

frog soup

[mainer]

113. The son of two holocaust survivors here is shopping for land in Canada

His parents say the parallels are just too frightening and they told him to have an escape hatch.

[ArkDem]

118. Aware of some abuses of jews in 1940...................................

The Holocaust

Date Event
1933 Hitler becomes Chancellor of Germany.
Violence against Jews in Germany by Hitler’s stormtroopers, the SA

April Boycott – Germans are told not to buy from Jewish shops.
Jews are forced out of jobs in the civil service, universities and the press.

1935 Passing of the Nuremberg Laws:
Jews are no longer allowed to be German citizens.

Jews cannot marry non-Jews.

Jews cannot have sexual relations with non-Jews.
1938 Germany unites with Austria - Anschluss. Persecution of Austrian Jews begins.
Jewish passports in Germany and Austria have to be stamped with a red letter ‘J’.

9th November 1938 Kristallnacht:
A night of extreme violence when nearly 100 Jews are murdered, 20,000 German and Austrian Jews are arrested and sent to concentration camps, hundreds of synagogues are burned, and the windows of Jewish shops are smashed all over Germany and Austria.

November/ December 1938 Jews are forced to pay a huge fine for the destruction of Kristallnacht.
Jews are banned from cinemas, theatres and other public places in Germany and Austria.

Jews are forced to close down and sell their businesses.

Jewish children are not allowed to attend state schools.
1939 Germany occupies Czechoslovakia and Nazi persecution of Czech Jews begins.
1 September 1939 Germany invades Poland and the Second World War begins.
Jews in Poland suffer all of the Nazi persecution already existing in Germany.

Jews are forced to wear Star of David armbands or sew yellow stars on to their clothing.

Jews in Poland are forced to leave their homes and move into crowded ghettos

[Moni74]

124. "Wehret den Anfängen" A couple of remarks from a German....

Hi, I'm Moni and Eric Schafer, member of DU, introduced me to this board and alerted me to this thread in particular. :)

Here are my two cents on the topic at hand.

When people started comparing the current US administration to the ruling Nazi party of the "dark age" of my country's history, even comparing G.W. Bush to Adolf Hitler, I reacted the way I always react whenever anybody compares anything to the Nazis. I said, "No way". The horrors the Germans committed and let happen voluntarily or involuntarily, with full knowledge or unconsciously (and I'm generalizing "the Germans" on purpose here, being German, I'm allowed to do so ;P) were so abominably cruel, the guilt we amassed so heavy that generations of post-Nazi Germans are still carrying the load. It does not compare to anything - unique in the most negative sense - and comparing it to me always smacks of "leveling our guilt" or of an attempt to lessen the abominable deeds.

I am one of those post-war generations forever struggling with my sense of nationality and sometimes sick to death of the "hereditary guilt" put on innocent shoulders, yet always acutely aware that if I have a patriotic duty, it is to very very carefully and diligently make sure nobody EVER forgets. That just on a side-note, it's a whole 'nother discussion.

Anyway, for the longest time I did not accept comparisons between the current situation in the US and Nazi Germany. Until the facts became so painfully obvious, that one simply couldn't deny the parallels anymore. While I do think comparisons as you drew them in your post might be valid to an extent, they are always a bit tough to sustain because of the difference in time, the zeitgeist, as other people in this thread said.

The most profound statement I came across so far to sustain your theory was a quote by Hermann Göring on military recruiting:

"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

Stunning, isn't it?

When I was a teenager and still a bit more insensitive as to what I might stir up, I kept asking my grandparents "How could you NOT have known? How could you NOT have done ANYTHING?" To which my grandpa always would reply that he was busy defending his Vaterland against the Bolshevists in Russia and my grandma would always say that she was never interested in politics (until the day she died, she asked my grandpa where to make the cross on her election slip).

My Grandpa was born in 1917. Today, he still tells stories of his childhood and youth, about when his father died and when he had to start working at a big farmer's farm age 14 to help his mother with earning enough for the family of three. He repeats and repeats how awful those times were. A lot of people were dirt poor in the 20s, the depression was so bad and the loss of the "Great War" still hurt so much, that indeed people did experience the times from when Hitler came into power as "getting better". And from all the elder people I spoke to (people living in the country, not in big cities), they had the feeling things were ok for a long time still. Definitely still in 1940.
My great-grandmother was picked up by the Gestapo in the middle of the night and brought to Nuremberg for questionning and was held for a couple of days because she called "her/our" Gauleiter Julius Streicher a "Hurenbock" and was denounced by somebody in the village (it had been common knowledge that when he came in our area and graced people here with his presence, he wanted to be surrounded by nubile young girls). I believe this happened in 1942 and by then at the very very latest, even people who lived out in the country, minded their own business, knitted socks for their father/brother/husband/fiancé in the Wehrmacht and weren't particularly interested in politics, or so they claimed, must have realized things weren't as they should be anymore. Of course it was way too late by then and village people didn't need more than the example of my great-grandmother to keep their mouths shut.

I'm not telling y'all this as an excuse of any shape or form, just as a report from those times as I got it from my relatives. I'm still struggling myself to fully grasp how all of this could have happened in my country. In the "Country of Thinker and Poets", as we like to call it in reference to some of our greater forefathers. One thing that is ingrained in all of us today is the sentence "Wehret den Anfängen" ("fight the beginnings", Cicero, pro sestio 100) and I'm trying not to sound too pathetic here, it is exactly the sentence that comes to my mind every single time I read about America these days.

[Forkboy]

126. What a great post!

Thanks so much for your comments,and welcome to DU!

[Moni74]

132. Thanks

Thanks for the warm welcome! :)
...and for liking the post. I tend to get carried away when discussing this particular subject, so I was rather afraid I might have typed up an incoherent storm ;)

[Petrodollar Warfare]

127. "Preventative War" parallel: Sept 1, 1939 = March 19, 2003

The parallel that most Americans do not understand is that Hitler's justifcation for attacking Poland on Sept. 1, 1939 closely resembles Bush's justification to invade Iraq in 2003. Even the language is similar. Anyhow, both invasions were premised upon a "preventative war" doctrine in which Hilter argued that Poland was harboring "Dutch terrorists" and that Poland had plans to construct a large military power in order to invade "the fatherland."

Of course this was complete BS and Hitler knew it, just like it was BS that Iraq represented a "imminent threat" to the US baded on all the WMD/9.11/Al Qaeda propaganda. Likewise, Hitler's proclamations were designed to scare the masses into complicity for an Imperial war - just as Bush's/Condis/Granks repeated references to "mushroom clouds" were designed to scare and shot-down critical thinking.

I suspect this is partly why the Bush administration is so against the International Crimial Court (ICC), b/c they know in their heart of hearts they violated International Law with the invasion of Iraq on March 19, 2003. The administration does not like for people to use the "preventative war" description for obvious reasons (DYI: to argue the Iraq war was a "pre-emptive" action based on an imminent threat is absurd, but that is their Orwellian approach).

Most importantly and least discussed in the US media (but well-understoos outside the US) is that during the Nurembuerg trials the idea of "preventative war" (ie. conemporarily known as the Bush Doctrine) was specifically addressed by the tribunial and categorically condemed as a crime against humanity, as the the concept itself was designated as a "war of aggression." German officers were hung after convicted of this crime.

The highest ranking German General at Nurenberg was Hermann Goering, who rather than face execution for war crimes took a cyanide pill while imprisoned. Below are some candid statements that were recorded just before his suicide.

###

Goering: "Why, of course, the people don't want war"..."That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

Gilbert:"There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

Goering: "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

- Gustave Gilbert, a German-speaking intelligence officer and psychologist, who interviewed and recorded the observations of Hermann Goering, Nazi Reichsmarshal and Luftwaffe chief, during the Nuremberg War Criminal trials, April 18, 1946

Source: Gilbert, G.M., Nurenberg Diary, New York: Signet, 1947.

[Petrodollar Warfare]

128. Straussian Necessity of an External Threat

Here's an exert from my upcoming book...just as fyi re the above quote by Goering...

(exert)

Convincing the Americans people of the need for a premptive invasion of Iraq required the emergence of an external threat as apecified in Straussian ideology. The manufacturing of an effective threat appears to have involved numerous references to the terms “smoking gun” and “mushroom cloud.” After all, according to followers of Strauss, the “vulgar masses could only be inspired to rise above their brutish existence only by fear of impending death or catastrophe.”

Straussian Necessity of an External Threat:
Mushroom Clouds to Inspire the Vulgar Masses

"Many of us are convinced that Saddam will acquire nuclear weapons fairly soon. Just how soon we cannot gauge."

-Vice President Cheney, August 26, 2002

“The problem here is that there will always be some uncertainty about how quickly he can acquire nuclear weapons, but we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud."

- National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice,
September 8, 2002

“Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof...the smoking gun.... that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud."

- President George W. Bush, October 7, 2002

An Iraqi nuclear weapon might bring "the sight of the first mushroom cloud on one of the major population centers on this planet."

- General Tommy Franks, November 12, 2002

"We know he's been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons, and we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."

- Vice President Cheney, March 16, 2003

“I don’t believe anyone that I know in the administration ever said that Iraq had nuclear weapons.”

- Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, May 14, 2003

"Yeah, I did misspeak .... We never had any evidence that he had acquired a nuclear weapon."

- Vice President Cheney, September 14, 2003

The last quote is quite an understatement considering that Vice President Cheney was one of the instrumental government officials to first suggest that Saddam Hussein was acquiring nuclear weapons. The seven month period between August of 2002 to just three days before the war was a remarkably era in which senior members of the Executive Brach, Pentagon and one of the top U.S. military commanders appeared to have engaged in a coordinated attempt to promulgate massive societal fear.

The repeatedly references to a “reconstituted nuclear weapon program” was a very effective fear tactic that was uncritically accepted by most members of the U.S. media conglomerates. In view of the Straussian philosophy of governance, the operations of the OSP and Douglas Feith’s intelligence group were not “intelligence failures” at all, but a remarkable success in uniting the “vulgar masses” with “fear of impending death or catastrophe.”

On the other hand, if one could overcome the thought-paralyzing effects of this type of fear invoking propaganda and critically examine the publicly available facts, it was always doubtful that Saddam could have reconstituted a completely undetected WMD program under the ongoing U.N. sanctions. Likewise, Saddam was not likely to give any WMD weapons to Islamic terrorists given that he would lose control over any such weapon. After all, Saddam was a survivor, not a martyr.

(here's one more quote for consideration)

"The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one."

"What good fortune for governments that the people do not think."

"Who says I am not under the special protection of God?"

-Adolf Hitler Quotes

[Moni74]

131. You made some great points...

<<The parallel that most Americans do not understand is that Hitler's justifcation for attacking Poland on Sept. 1, 1939 closely resembles Bush's justification to invade Iraq in 2003.>>

There is an often-heard (here in Germany, anyway) original voice document of Hitler proclaiming on radio that "since 5.45 a.m. we're shooting back" (in reference to a supposed raid of Polish people on the German radio station Gleiwitz) - now in German history lessons (at least in the ones I had the good fortune to visit) proclaimed as the lie that was the "reason" for the German invasion of Poland on Sept. 1. 1939.

Making up a phony reason for war isn't a thing Hitler invented. It's happened time and again, before and after (most prominent example, as you said, the recent invasion of Iraq).

The assassination of Franz Ferdinand of Austria, back then proclaimed as the "reason" to start WWI wasn't the reason either.

Or the explosion of the "Maine" near Cuba for the American-Spanish war of 1897/98.

Or the Tonkin incident in Vietnam.

I'm sure the list is endless and international.

When Mr. Bush started his verbal effusions about the whys and pros of a "pre-emptive strike" a lot of people here were reminded of Nazi rhetorics. But as I tried to explain in my first post in this thread, it's very very much un-PC for a German to compare a current administration to the Nazis. Why, former minister of justice Herta Däubler-Gmehlin compared Bush to Hitler in 2002 and had to resign for it (see, in Germany politicians still have to resign when they blunder ;-)) Justifiedly, imho, because she was just plain stupid to say it like that - I still think nobody should be compared to Hitler.

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

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