Does Displaying the Confederate Flag Make One a Racist?

[Placebo]

Many people here seem to think so.

[Inland]

1. Depends. Is one Stonewall Jackson?

[Name removed]

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[UL_Approved]

2. The Confederacy represented continued slavery

If that doesn't represent racism, I don't know what does.

[othermeans]

253. Not exactly. Davis and R.E. Lee discussed freeing the slaves in

exchange for their fighting for the Confederacy.

[Florida_Geek]

3. One of the ONLY Democrats I work with

believes in the Confederacy

[barb162]

267. It can mean "states rights" but usually it mean slavery so I don't

see how it can be Democrat

[UdoKier]

4. A better question would be:"Is the Confed. Flag a symbol of racism?"

Regardless of the intent of the person displaying it, it is a racist statement.

If I flew a Nazi flag on my house, I might just be a military collector nut, for all you know, but you probably wouldn't be inclined to bring a housewarming gift to me, would you?

[Placebo]

5. Why not?

I'd have to figure out what your ideology was sooner or later.

[Maestro]

13. That is sort of naive don't you think?

I mean seriously, if I saw someone displaying the Nazi flag, I could care less what the person is really like. The fact that they are displaying that flag tells me this is no one with whom I would associate.

[MemphisTiger]

7. Exactly, tell these hicks who wave the "stars and bars"

this. They would say, "but the Nazis lost because we whupped ther asses" I've got news for you hick, so did you.

[GarySeven]

132. The flag you refer to is NOT the "stars and bars"

It is the battle ensign or St. Andrews Cross. The "Stars and Bars" was the first national flag of the Confederacy.

Ignorance of this fact is directly analogous to the ignorance of those who appropriate this flag in the cause of hate.

Incidently, the "Stars and Stripes" flew over a slave-holding nation before the Civil War - and AFTERWARDS, prior to the amendments to the Constitution and their ratification. That same flag - which, unlike the Confederate flag, innocent children are coerced to pledge allegiance - also flew over the nation that exterminated the First Nation peoples, which denied political rights to women, which interned Japanese-Americans for no cause and which today promote domestic spying without warrant or cause on citizens deemed suspect by the national government.

[UdoKier]

288. There are all kinds of stains on the American flag, but we ALL bear them.

We ALL have a responsibility to learn about and prevent more of the crimes you mention.

But displaying the confederate flag is a way of very deliberately setting yourself apart and saying "I'm a southerner, and I embrace the culture of slavery that existed under this flag, and I really couldn't care less that it offends most and intimidates many, especially African-Americans."

I have yet to see a single legitimate reason presented YET to justify the flying of the confederate flag.

Is flying the US flag justifiable? Now THAT's a subject for debate. As far as I'm concerned, the last 140 years have made the confederate flag far beyond redemption.

[Swamp Rat]

292. Well said

Here's what Bridget Burke quoted in post #106. It bears repeating:

From Gary Bledsoe, Texas NAACP--back in 2000

"How can this be an issue of heritage when the Confederate Battle Flag never flew over Texas or any other southern state for that matter? It first appeared on the Texas Supreme Court in 1955, a year after the infamous desegregation case, Brown v. Board of Education. It was raised over the statehouse of South Carolina in 1962 and became the mascot of Hays High School in 1967, during the height of the Civil Rights Movement. Today, it is the preferred symbol of white supremacists, neo-Nazis and hate groups."

"It seems interesting that people became heritage conscious just as the country was dealing with ensuring blacks the right to vote, desegregating public schools and public places and dismantling the Ku Klux Klan," Bledsoe said. "I can understand why some people want to embrace the Confederacy and its symbols as representing 'states rights.' That is far preferable to the truth - that the Confederacy and the Battle flag stood for the immoral, indecent and inhuman institution of slavery."

www.texasnaacp.org/flag.htm

[Name removed]

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[Maestro]

11. Exactly!

Nice analogy.

[Dr Fate]

6. The test is- would you feel comfortable displaying it in front of...

...black folks?

I have a Republican friend in GA who's Confederate nostalgia items mysteriously disappeared whenever he had parties at his house.

I lived in the South for 32 years of my life- my experience is that anyone hung up on that "old-time days are not forgotten" stuff is either subconsciously racist or overtly so.

I mean , I suppose you could have Aztec swastikas hanging all over your house too- but why would you?

[Robb]

24. Bingo

...sort of like "is this porn?" "Would you watch it with your 9 year-old daugher?"

[sweetheart]

71. No, not sorta like porn

Its a crime to watch porn with your nine inch daughter. If you want
to watch porn with your "of age" daughter, its your perogative... and
no crime, or laws are broken. Merely, you're watching human beings
reproducing and going about the acts of it alll.... must that be
relegated to the deeply unnatural race-hatred?.. no.

Racism is something uglier than sexual desire. I hope you see the
difference.

[Robb]

246. No, you misunderstand.

Re-read the post. It's "like porn" in that it can be defined by a similar set of Twain-style subjective questions.

Racism uglier than sex? Really? Gosh, I'm glad you set me straight. :eyes:

[GodHelpUsAll2]

269. Frued....party of one

Your nine INCH daughter? Was that a fruedian slip? Talking about porn and all I guess nine inch might come to mind. LOL

[dogman]

8. No, but it might be a clue.

It pretty senseless, but stupidty is not racism even if racism is stupidity.

[UVASAM1]

9. didnt

Howard Dean say that he wanted to be the candidate of "guys with confederate flags on their pickup trucks?"


Howard Dean = Possible new head of the DNC = Racist?

[billbuckhead]

12. A powerful reason to oppose Howard Dean

Reminds me why I find him unacceptable.

[Dr Fate]

16. The idea everyone missed is that someday they will REMOVE them.

Just like I did.

If you can get "red necks" to be involved with Democrats, sooner or later they will change, or go back to the Republicans.

I agreed w/ Dean on that "issue."

He never said he agreed with Confederate nostalgists- he said he wanted them to vote for their best interests.

What is wrong w/ getting people to change their ways and bring them into the fold?

[dogman]

22. It was like his scream, taken out of context to destroy his image.

Another function of the MSM and the Dem establishment which both felt threatened by his popularity. If dimwit B$$$ were treated equally he would never have even been Gov. of Texas.

[UdoKier]

34. Nice to hear from a Clarkie.

I remember all the animosity between Deanies and Clarkies back then, and I really wish we had been able to form an alliance.

I still think a Clark/Dean team would've been near unstoppable.

[Dr Fate]

50. I am a Clarkie too- and I always liked Dean a lot.

I agree the two together would give us the very best elements the "big tent" has to offer.

[mandyky]

57. Bullcrap - Dean got a standing O from a diverse audience

at the DNC winter meeting of 2003, it was only after Edwards and Sharpton piled on along with the clueless MSM that Dean's Confederate flag comments were blown way out of context.

Dean never embraced the CF, his point was to engage white Southerners and turn them into Democratic voters, by showing them they needed better schools and healthcare too.

<snip>

Let me tell you something else I'm going to do. One of the things that I thought was terrific about Bill Clinton was that when he became president in 1992, he said that his Cabinet would look like the rest of America. And he did it. And he did it.

I want all of our institutions of higher learning, our law schools, our medical schools, our best universities to look like the rest of America. And I thought...

I thought that one of the most despicable moments of this president's administration was three weeks ago, when on national prime-time television, he used the word ``quota'' seven times. The University of Michigan does not now have quotas. It has never had quotas. Quotas is a race-loaded word, designed to appeal to people's fears of losing their jobs.

I intend to talk about race during this election in the South because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? You know what? White folks in the South who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flag decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too.

I'm not done yet. Yeah! Most of you know that six months before my last re-election, I signed a bill into law that made Vermont the first state in America that guaranteed equal rights to every person under the law...


... every person under the law.


That bill was called the Civil Unions bill, and it said marriage is between a man and woman, but same-sex couples are entitled to exactly the same legal rights as I have, hospital visitation, insurance, inheritance rights. All Americans--all Americans...



... all Americans are equal under the law in our state.

This bill was at about 40 percent in the polls when I signed it, 60 percent against six months before the election. And I never got a chance to ask myself whether it was a good idea to sign this bill or not. Because I knew that if I were willing to sell out the rights of a whole group of people because it was politically inconvenient for some future office I might run for, then I had wasted my time in public service.

</snip>

He tied all his views on civil rights together. And the audience cheered him wildly, a very racially diverse audience I might add.

[madfloridian]

101. Do you know which Dem candidate paid for these demonstrations?

It was one of Dean's opponents. I will find Dean's words for you, so you will see how he meant it. Do you think it was racist for another candidate to do this to him everywhere he went in NH during the primaries? Was it tasteless?

[KnowerOfLogic]

116. Jeezus H. Christ; he didn't mean appeal to their *racism*, he meant

to show them that the *only* thing the repukes are doing for them is supporting their racism; on every other issue dems are better, and that they should start letting the racism go and realize that they're better off voting democratic.

[ikojo]

230. Right! I watched that speech on C-SPAN and applauded

Dean for his comments. As a working class American I understood that Dr Dean meant those displaying confederate flags on their trucks are voting against their CLASS interests when they vote for Republicans. That it is against their CLASS interests to support the party of big business. I hardly have a PhD and if I can get that from his speech THAT I WATCHED FROM BEGINNING TO END ON TV, then why can't the underworked and WAY overpaid "journalists" get it, unless of course they did and wanted to bury Dr Dean's populist, class based message...hmmm....

Can't have working class whites make alliance with working class blacks that's for sure. The last guy who tried that was killed (MLK who was adopting a more class based message toward the end of his life. He was supporting a strike during the time he was assassinated) Oh no that would be a bad thing. Gotta keep the working class divided against itself in order to prop up the upper middle class and rich folk.

[Name removed]

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[CTLawGuy]

280. Howard Dean NEVER

said that people SHOULD fly the confederate flag, he only talked about reaching people who DO.

Get your facts straight.

[UdoKier]

15. He got MAJOR flak for that statement.

It was the first of several gaffes that derailed his bid for the presidency. African American groups immediately expressed their displeasure with him for that.

That's the problem with those of you that romanticize that thing, you seem completely oblivious to the anger and intimidation it causes so many people.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. Yes.His point was the Repubs have used racism to get stupid white males

to vote for economic interests of the ruling class.

[quaker bill]

37. Exactly

And he had the apparent unmitigated gaul to suggest that we stop allowing repugs to do this.

Can't have a guy like that running the DNC. We might start winning elections or something, then we would have to figure out how to govern. We wouldn't want to do that after all, per GWB: "It's hard work, hard, hard work"

I hear that when you are in charge, you occasionally have to work with people who do repulsive things, like perhaps flying the stars and bars. What a nuisance!

[American Tragedy]

44. Oh come on, I think everybody here knows what he really meant by that

It was an awkward way of saying that we need to win back poor white men who have been voting Republican for decades and have little to show for that loyalty.

He was right, but I was never at all convinced that he was the one to do it.

[UVASAM1]

51. i agree

it was more of a sarcastic swipe than anything else

[madfloridian]

104. I just posted an article about this in GD politics.

You might be interested in reading it and understanding.

[Kitka]

117. I missed the part where Dean said he had such a sticker on

HIS truck. No, that statement does not mean Dean = racist.

[madfloridian]

120. Here is my post in GD Politics.

It will explain more what he is saying. I think it is destructive to our party and to this forum to say things that are untrue or misleading. Too much is at stake now.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1425345

[Forkboy]

10. What,no option for "Usually"?

:)

[KenCarson]

14. it would depend on context

if it were on display at a civil war reenactment, i would not assume so, since there were other issues larger than racism involved and they are recreating history, which does not benefit from sanitation. so in that case, no i wouldn't assume the person was racist in every day life.

if it were on the front porch of someone's house or a sticker on their car, i would assume so, since i associate that kind of display with more modern hatespeak which didn't bother to update their symbols anymore than the nazi's sent out a memo to everyone perpetually saying that the swastika was not a hatesymbol until they started using it as such,

so it would depend on context.

[mitchtv]

17. Don't know, stands for rebellion and treason to me

[Zep]

23. Don't know, stands for rebellion and treason to me !!???

Rebellion and treason against what?

Not ends in themselves, if you have any sense.

To me, the only good reason for displaying the Confederate flag is as part of a museum exhibit about the Civil war. Or maybe an exhibit of historical flags, including Nazi ones.

[zmdem]

33. Stands for freedom

All the south did was say they wanted to be independent of the federal government, not much different than 1776. What they got was an invasion and an enforced union they no longer wished. Why was their desire for independence so awful ?

[Crunchy Frog]

144. Yeah, all they wanted was the independence and

freedom to be able to own other human beings.

That being said, I think we should have jettisoned them while we had the chance.

[Yupster]

260. If all they wanted was to keep their slaves, then

they would have stayed in the union because Lincoln promised he would not touch slavery where it already existed. He was just against its epansion into the western territories.

[HarrietBrown]

279. They would not necessarily have stayed under those conditions.

Slavery was dying early on--the cotton gin and the ability to expand slavery into the west that helped keep it alive. Enslaving people to work used-up soil would have been pretty pointless. Expansion was key to slave holders. Check out the discussion about slavery during the Constitutional Convention in 1787 at http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/debates/822.htm. There are also good discussions at the time of the Louisiana Purchase.

[Name removed]

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[DoNotRefill]

39. So, when people at DU talk about secession of the Blue States...

are we being rebellious and treasonous?

Just checking....

[forgethell]

72. Ah, well, the issue

hadn't been settled until the end of the Civil War. Now it has been.

[NoPasaran]

94. Well yes, now that you ask

"The Federal Union: It Must and Shall be Preserved!"
---Andrew Jackson

[DoNotRefill]

126. So, have you reported us to Homeland Security yet?

Just wondering...

[NoPasaran]

245. I'm giving you fire eaters a pass for now

Just don't try anything like firing on Fort Sumter, y'hear?

[Sparkly]

96. We're at least speaking about our own times

and our own experiences and our own perceptions about our own political situation.

We're not reviving a war that ended over a century ago (supposedly) or pretending that the feelings of our fellow Americans TODAY matter less than those of people who are long dead and gone.

[bvar22]

59. So does the Stars and Stripes!

1776 you know.

[petronius]

259. So does your (our) Bear Flag

:P

[sandnsea]

18. No, but definitely ignorant

The Civil War was about slavery. Southern plantation owners used the Bible to justify the institution and create a white supremacist system. That's the truth of it. Just like wedge issues are created today to convince lower income people to vote against their better interest, so non-slaveowners fought against their better interest then.

When southern people who want to celebrate their heritage accept that it's a heritage built on the backs of African Americans, then they may have something to say. If they ever get there, which I doubt, they'll realize they can't promote that heritage with a confederate flag.

[WoodrowFan]

306. YES!

All of the states that tried to succeed issued a statement that announced that the Union had been broken. About 1/2 simply said "we're out of here." The other half issued an explanation. The explanation in all of their declarations? That the North was interfering with slavery! None of this "war is over tariff" crap you see now from CSA apologists. It was slavery they were going to protect.

As the Vice President of the Confederacy stated...

http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/cva.htm

The great truth, I repeat, upon which our system rests, is the inferiority of the African. The enemies of our institutions ignore this truth. They set out with the assumption that the races are equal; that the negro is equal to the white man. If their premises were correct, their conclusions would be legitimate. But their premises being false, their conclusions are false also. Most of that fanatical spirit at the North on this subject, which in its zeal without knowledge, would upturn our society and lay waste our fair country, springs from this false reasoning. Hence so much misapplied sympathy for fancied wrongs and sufferings. These wrongs and sufferings exist only in their heated imaginations. There can be no wrong where there is no violation of nature’s laws. We have heard much of the higher law. I believe myself in the higher law. We stand upon that higher law. I would defend and support no Constitution that is against the higher law. I mean by that the law of nature and of God. Human Constitutions and human laws that are made against the law of nature or of God, ought to be overturned; and if Seward was right the Constitution which he was sworn to support, and is now requiring others to swear to support, ought to have been overthrown long ago. It ought never to have been made. But in point of fact it is he and his associates in this crusade against us, who are warring against the higher law—we stand upon the laws of the Creator, upon the highest of all laws. It is the fanatics of the North, who are warring against the decrees of God Almighty, in their attempts to make things equal which he made unequal. My assurance of ultimate success in this controversy is strong from the conviction, that we stand upon the right. Some years ago in the Hall of the House of Representatives, a very prominent gentleman from Ohio, announced with a great deal of effect, that we at the South would be obliged to yield upon this question of slavery, because we warred against a principle; and that it was as impossible to war successfully against principle in politics as it was in mechanics. The principle, said he, would ultimately prevail. He announced this with imposing effect, and endeavored to maintain that we were contending against the great principle of equality in holding our fellow men. in the unnatural condition of bondage. In reply, I stated to him, that I admitted his proposition as he announced it, that it was impossible to war successfully against a principle in mechanics and the same was true in politics—the principle would certainly prevail—and from that stand point I had come to the conclusion that we of the South would ultimately succeed, and the North would be compelled to yield their ideas upon this subject. For it was they who were contending against a principle and not we. It was they who were trying to make the black man a white man, or his equal, which was nearly the same thing. The controlling laws of nature regulate the difference between them as absolutely as the laws of gravitation control whatever comes within their action—and until he could change the laws of gravitation, or any other law of nature, he could never make the negro a white man or his equal. No human efforts or human laws can change the leopard’s spots or the Ethiopian’s skin. These are the works of Providence—in whose hands are the fortunes of men as well as the destiny of nations and the distinctions of races.

[stanwyck]

19. Probably. And it also makes

one a clueless business person. Since I, and I suspect others, will not employ or buy from someone who displays one. So, don't show up at my house to sell me firewood, or lawn services, or tree removal, or anything if you've got the Confederate flag on your vehicle. I'll give my money to someone else, thank you very much. We just got through with renovating our house and I told the general contractor up front: no Confederate flags better pull up in front of our house...painters, plumbers, electricians, flooring guys...whoever. And none did.
I consider it racist. Plus, it's the flag of a defeated army. Tradition holds that the flag of a defeated army is not flown. I don't understand the mystique. I guess some people are desperate for some kind of faded glory. But how a Confederate flag represents honor is a mystery to me.

[Harlan James]

20. Pretty much, but there is this one exception.

Nobody should ever forget that there are lots of folks out there who have no idea of its true meaning. I'm sure there are some who believe that the stars 'n bars signifies one being a rebel and an all around wild fella. Slap one on your pickup and voila! You're not some hapless working stiff with a fat nagging wife, you're Ted fucking Nugent, man.

Yee haw!

[UdoKier]

21. Ted Nugent!

That's almost as bad as a racist thug!

I can't STAND that guy!

[xultar]

25. Hell YEAH. eom

[hollowdweller]

26. A lot of the rednecks I know don't think of it that way but almost every

black person I know does. I think that to a lot of rednecks it just means rebel and hellraiser. However to most black folks I know it's like the swastika. Some still would, but I think if a lot of rednecks if they knew how much it offends black folks they wouldn't display them, but where they live they are never around any black folks.

[chaska]

294. This has got to be the funniest thing I have ever read.

Naive???

[cattleman22]

316. Why do you think that was funny. I have seen exactly that. n/t

[Wild Rabbit]

27. Depends on the situation and the circumstances. NT

[rogue emissary]

28. Honestly, what's there to be proud about.

I mean take slavery out of it. You still basicly have a group of men attacking the US. Our patriotism is in question just for doubting the current Government. How can the Confederates and their flag be a proud tradition since they attacked the rest of America? That Flag was the flag of an enemy army. So what's left other than the fact that the Confederate states were pro slavery. :shrug:

[Nikia]

29. A suspected racist but not necessarily one

A person who displays a Confederate flag should be sensitive to what it symbolizes to most people even if it doesn't symbolize that to themselves. There are some people who don't care what it symbolizes to other people, only to themselves. It might not symbolize racism to them. I still would suspect them as racists, but if it were someone who I came to know, I would try to find out for myself.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

31. Most people who display them run around saying "nigger nigger nigger"

So in most instances, YES and don't tell me I am bigoted against the south..I've been down there a million times and the people who open their mouths confirm this

[zmdem]

35. Most people who display them say "liberty"

I've been in the south also, never heard "nigger", did hear "liberty", as in the Dec. of Ind.

[Sparkly]

40. Why would someone display it if you know it offends people?

That's what I don't understand. To many people it's an insult, a threat, and/or a statement of hatred. I know that's not how it began, but based on its more recent use and people's perceptions, it's clear that's what it's become.

I'm interested to know how anyone sees it as NOT racially insensitive to display something that offends and upsets people as a racist symbol?

Could you (or anyone) verbalize the statement it makes to you -- "I love the south" or "The south got a raw deal" or "Secede from the union" or "Down with Yankees" or something...? I'm trying to understand why anyone would display this flag today.

Edited because it was worded in a way that made it too specific to the individual poster.

[forgethell]

74. Not to defend the Confederate flag, but

the one thing that freedom-of-speech means is the freedom to offend. The protesters in the 60s offended many, and they meant to do it. We offend the conservatives, and they are perfectly within their rights to offend us. Let it roll off your back.

As for racism, I would wait for a racist act before considering the person a racist. But, hey, I beleive in tolerance for everybody, even the intolerant, so long as they refrain from violence.

[Sparkly]

84. "Tolerate" in the sense of not censoring, fine.

Yes, people have a right to be obnoxious, racist, offensive, insulting... But I'm trying to understand how thinking Democrats would be that. Anti-war protests then and now are important, but racism is something that's endemic, systemic, historical and continuing. People see that flag and think of lynchings as well as current oppression; they think of their ancestors and of their children.

If somebody doesn't know the confederate flag an offensive and racist symbol, they need to face reality: whatever it was before, that's what it is now.

If somebody knows it's offensive to African Americans (as well as northerners in general, people who care about civil rights and the United States, etc.), and they don't WANT to be offensive or racially insensitive, I don't know why they'd display it.

If somebody knows it but displays it anyway, then I don't see how it's illogical to consider them offensive and racially insensitive at best.

[The Straight Story]

87. Guess one could say the same about the american flag then

From Iraq to racism to environmental to even slavery in the old US. I guess the question is which flag represented more 'evil' (if you will) or still does.

Before we see the mote in the eye of the confederate flag maybe we should see the one in ours first.

To US it might represent freedom, et al, to others it may represent oppression. So do we display a flag because of what it means to us or do we hide it because of what others think it means?

[Sparkly]

88. The US Flag *currently* represents OUR country

So do we display a flag because of what it means to us or do we hide it because of what others think it means?

In the case of the US flag, we work to make sure it stands for our highest ideals, not our worst crimes. Yes -- in most of the world, we need to change what it's representing right now.

What's that got to do with displaying a confederate flag?

(Edited to change "a country" to "OUR country" in the subject line.)

[The Straight Story]

91. context

People display flags for a variety of reasons. For example, we can dislike what the south represented but still find a historical value in it - and that at one time our country had a division: This could parlay into those who display both flags which represent a political unity (IE they did not like slavery but loved the south and it's independence which to them is a symbol of freedom). To many it may well seem the south is a country still - and given the comments of others here after election about the south maybe in a sense they are right.

The south was not the only place to allow slavery - the feds allowed them to have it. Whites were not the only slave holders, blacks also held slaves. In this sense the US flag by some could be seen to represent a country which allowed racism and slavery and codified it into law - but that was a time now past. Some in the south (or north even) may feel the confederate flag still represents a symbol of a people who rebeled against a government and to them the term rebel and confederate flag go together - but today is not a rebellion so that they can hold slaves (anymore than our flag today represents an oppressive government which condones slavery).

It is all about context and who is viewing it and their beliefs - but how we view it does tell us really about the person displaying it - it tells us more about ourselves. It, to mean, does mean that people displaying it are racist anymore than a person displaying a US flag means the person there is for the iraq war and voted bush. It tells me nothing about that person anymore than the clothes they wear or their skin color would.

Just because something to me is negative in it's display does not mean that the person(s) displaying it are to be judged as racist - and if my feelings on it are that it is a racist symbol then I will not display it.

When I see it, if I had to guess, I would say that it represents a simple statement 'big government can butt out of my life'. YOU may see it as a racist flag and that is fine, you have reasons to feel how you do - so don't display it. Intent of others though is to be judged on how they treat people, not on what flag they have in their back window. My neighbor 4 doors down on opposite of the street has one in his truck. Along with a kerry bumper sticker - to him it was a symbol of rebelling against the establishment (and he has several other stickers from 'At least I can still smoke in my car' to 'protesting is freedom in action, silence is acceptance').

People have co-opted it to mean many things, I don't pretend to know how each feels about it.

[Sparkly]

93. "judged on how they treat people, not on what flag they have"

In this case, there's an intersection there. That flag is an insult and a threat to many people right now, today. The history of it as a symbol of "freedom" doesn't matter to people who see in it a legacy of slavery, lynchings, and right here right now discrimination, disenfranchisement, and hatred.

I DO think displays of that flag say something about the people displaying it. It says one of three things: either 1) they are ignorant of what it means to other people, or 2) they know and intend to offend other people, or 3) they know and don't care what it means to other people.

Same can be said about using racial and ethnic slurs or terms offensive to women. "I didn't mean anything by it" or "It's your problem for taking it that way" are NOT an excuse. The same three possibilities apply, seems to me. I've learned a lot from discussing this issue, but nothing that's changed my mind about that.

[The Straight Story]

105. perhaps, but

That flag is an insult and a threat to many people right now, today

We cannot live our lives worrying about how things we do will offend others. I cannot control what others thing or believe. Case in point relevant to me - was reading mein kampf at work on my breaks, and a book about the history of the reich. A guy I worked with thought I was a nazi - whereas I just wanted to learn more history (and I was in history book club). He eventually borrowed the book after we talked some, and then bought it. I could not control how he thought, did not care to. Nor I did live my life around how others saw things. I cannot control the feelings and thoughts of people around me - and I cannot, will not, try to live my life in a way which takes into account every single possible thing which might be offensive to others.

My bookshelf at home has things from mein kampf to hannah more to books on the saints and buddhism. I don't worry what people coming over will think of me when they come over though.

[Name removed]

297. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dr Fate]

54. Well- I heard the "N-word" nearly every day of my life-for 30 years.

Either your ears were closed, or the Confederate flag wavers assumed you were not "in the club" and you did not hear all the comments I have heard all my life.

Trust me- I'm white, conservative "looking" and I speak w/ a thick accent.

Lots of folks felt comfortable telling racist jokes and saying
"n*&%er" around me-they assumed I was "in the club."

And its true that those who put Confederate flags on their cars or front porches are the folks who tell those jokes, etc.

You are not going to re-write the history of the South with one post- my memory is stronger than that.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

79. Thanks Fate...I knew coming from the deep south you could

affirm my impression of the confederate flag sporting individual.

[Ms_Mary]

210. I've gotten that too and they find out exactly how I feel in a hurry.

I have defended the south against some sweeping generalizations over the past few days, but yes, racism exists. Nothing pisses me off more than people assuming I'll sympathize because I'm white. I don't get that much though.

[Misunderestimator]

239. I grew up in Texas and I concur with your observation...

absolutely.

[Yupster]

261. I live in the south

have for 25 years. I can't remember the last time I heard the N word other than in a rap song. We must just hang out with different groups of people.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

273. Actually

It's people like you that help keep the divide in this country alive and well. I too am from the deep south. Born and raised here. Been here all my life. Do I know racism exists? Yes I do (guess what, it exists in the north, east and west too it's not exclusive to the south). Do I harp on it constantly or lump an entire group/area as must be racist because of there geographical location or fondness of the confederate flag? No I don't. Have I heard more than my fair share of people use the "n" word? Yep. How do I deal with it? I do the right thing, I stand up for true injustices but I don't acknowledge those who tell the jokes or make improper comments etc. Because when you acknowledge them, you validate them and continue the "fight" if you will. When an inter-racial couple marries and has a child and people constantly talk about what a hard time that child is going to have/is having they are, in in my mind, doing nothing more than guaranteeing the problem persists and keeping that wedge alive. Am I suggesting we just ignore racism? No I am not, not even remotely. However, I do believe that if we concentrated more on the "real" offenders, the ones that are glaringly obvious and stop making such a fuss non-stop over the one's we are just sure must be racist because of a confederate flag or a thick southern accent then maybe just maybe we could actually make some progress. You would be surprised at how many people will tone down if you ignore them and treat them as if they are invisible and insignificant. Not all of them mind you, but there are a lot that will. It has been such an issue in this country for so long and I believe that it is fueled and kept alive to keep the country divided. It's another tool of fear and people are buying it hook line and sinker. All I am saying is we all need to learn the difference between a felony and a misdemeanor and act accordingly because if we continue to treat others with such harshness because we have this notion that we don't need to know WHO they are just what we see and ASSUME they are we can be assured that nothing will ever change.

[chaska]

295. I would get my ears checked ... seriously.

[Endangered Specie]

46. Of all the people who I know who have conderate flags...

have not uttered a racial slur.

And some of them are democrats.

Theres a difference between "being down here" and "living here"

[Dr Fate]

58. Then you were "not in the club" then.

I am frustrated by some of these posts- somtimes I think I must have lived in a different "South" than those making this claim that there are no Confederate flag waving biggots in the South.

The bars, Fraternities and households that display these images generally do so to "send a message."

[Endangered Specie]

62. Oh I dont doubt that some people displayed them for racist reasons...

but not ALL of them, that is the key point.

Btw, Im in North Carolina, which is one of the more moderate southern states, the racist ratio is worse further south I dont doubt.

Lets not also forget that many racists wave the USA stars and stripes, and many others waved itwhen they went to slaugher entire villages of Indians.

Its all about context.

[Dr Fate]

64. Not all of them, but 99.99999% of them are subconciously or overtly so.

People who pine for those "genteel days were mullatos served us mint juleps on the porch" are racists.

People who say "the war was not about slavery, it was about states rights" are racists.

Sure- there is the "Lynard Skynard" or "Dukes of Hazzard" context to the flag- but lets be real-here. I mean REALLY real here-no excuses..

Look into your heart- you know I'm right.

[Endangered Specie]

73. That has not been my experience...

Id say that percentage is quite overexagerated, Id say any where from 30/70 to 70/30, depending on where in the South.

The causes for the Civil War involved mostly the states rights, and slavery was a major issue in state vs federal rights (and lets not forget that neither Abe nor the North cared very much for blacks either). To say that slavery WAS the cause is just as false as saying it WASNT a cause.

My heart is not involved in this discussion, only my brain.

[Dr Fate]

109. Well, your brain is steering you wrong on this one.

Look into your heart. Seriously- it wont steer you wrong.

I used to be into all that garbage years ago. I know why I did it and I know why I was wrong. I know why my father still flies the old GA flag in his all white neighborhood, but does not put one on his car where his co-workers can see it.

I know plenty of otherwise good people who say "nigger" (nice, huh?)around other whites.

I know lots of people that romanticise R.E. Lee,Bedford Forest, Jeff Davis, etc. I'm picturing them all in my mind now- school chums, church goers, co-workers, family members- all who harbor racist feelings.

I have no beef w/ you, but I truly feel you are wrong and you are making excuses.

[quaker bill]

32. No, but it makes it more likely.

The stars and bars is displayed for many purposes. However personal experience suggests that chances are far better than 50:50 that you will find a racist flying it.

[mandyky]

36. None of the above - Not necessarily

Some Southerners proud of their southern heritage are not racists or bigots.

Polls like this are sort of divisive, I wish DUers, at least, could civilly talk about the differences between cultures.

[DoNotRefill]

38. It depends.

If you fly the confederate flag while wearing white robes and burning a cross, it makes you a racist.

If you fly it at a "living history" event on a Civil War Battlefield, it doesn't make you a racist.

Context is everything.

[Endangered Specie]

41. No.

I happen to know a number of people who display it purely as a statement of Southern (rebellious) heritage. Of course, there are racists who fly it too (they also fly American flags on occasion too).

Better question: Does displaying the American Flag make one an Indian Killer?

[AirAmFan]

42. Does displaying the SWASTIKA flag make one a NAZI?

After all, the swastika is an ancient Near-Eastern folk symbol associated with fertility and good luck.

If millions of people are offended by something, and you know damn well they are offended by it, and you do it anyway, you cannot claim, "They're taking it the wrong way." That goes to infinity when the "something" is associated with genocide for MILLIONS and hundreds of years of burutality and violence.

[Endangered Specie]

43. Most southerns who fly it...

do not care what other people think of them, which is incidentally why they fly it for its rebellious overtones.

[Sparkly]

48. I don't get what they're rebelling against

If they're flying it, they must be feeling pretty well empowered already, seems to me. I suspect if they were suddenly transplanted to a neighborhood in Southeast DC or East Harlem they'd stop flying it for fear of bodily harm. What are they rebelling against in their own communities?

[Endangered Specie]

52. ...

Its not so much that they are rebelling, its just they see themselves as a rebel, someone who doesn't march with the normal, what your supposed to be. I guess some of the things they rebel against are:

-accepted 'dos and do-nots of society'
-the North, alot of Southerns still feel/believe in northern aggression, "the North says we shouldn't fly it, so we fly it"
-the establishment, the stars and bars was a battle flag, held by an army that was pretty much full of extremely poor people who didnt have much other choice, and were all sent to fight in die in what was basically a hopeless situation by the rich establishment, who sent them there purely for their own self interest. (who incidentally, owned most the slaves, and worked the poor LIKE slaves)

Others fly it for heritage.

"I suspect if they were suddenly transplanted to a neighborhood in Southeast DC or East Harlem they'd stop flying it for fear of bodily harm." - Sort of like most of us would take down our American flags if transplanted to Saudi Arabia, or somewhere else where we are hated.

[Sparkly]

65. That's interesting -- I appreciate your answers

Being a "rebel" just to feel big and bad and independent strikes me as classically adolescent. I've seen it, though. Like adolescence, I think it usually goes along with feeling a need for control and power that isn't yet there. But when it's about white men feeling threatened by the progress of women and minorities in society, I understand it but find it obnoxious (at best).

Northern aggression: The two times I've seen/heard of this flag displayed on trucks (I'm telling you, I'm a sheltered Yankee), the truck also had "Down with Yankees" type stickers. So doesn't it make sense that this is offensive to me as a northerner, as well? I never fought the civil war against these people (imagine a "Down with Southerners" bumpersticker!). What are they mad about?

"Heritage" -- I don't understand what the 'heritage' message is. I have German ancestors but I don't fly a German flag. In fact, my parents were both southerners but I don't fly a confederate flag. My husband's grandparents were all native Italian, and he doesn't fly an Italian flag. Why is southern heritage different?

And, I wouldn't assume that people in predominantly black neighborhoods hate white people, if that's what you're saying. If you're saying they'd hate people who fly the confederate flag though, that's a different matter, and that's one I understand.

[Endangered Specie]

69. Ill take another stab at some of your questions...

I suppose adolescent would be a very good way to describe it, I mean, lets face it, very few people in this world really grow up. and I should also mention women fly the flag too.

Northern aggression: Alot of southerns still believe (not always mistakenly) that the North tries to rule/oppress them, many times by north they really mean the federal government. Once again, this could also be tied to adolesnce, but North and the South are so different that its bound to happen that each side isnt going to like alot of aspects about each other. They also think the North tries to discourage southern pride, and the whole polticall correntness that "being southern is bad"- is seen as a Northern invention. Oh and some dont like the North because alot of them are moving to the south.

"Heritage" - not all southerners fly rebel flags, its a fair minority actually. Flag waving is something that all americans do well, in large part due to lots of pratice, regarless of geopraphy. many of them consider themselves southerners first, americans second.

Thats about the best I can explain it... I hope that Ive made it clear that people have a very many different reasons to display a star and bars flag, other than just rasicm, as is often percieved.

[Sparkly]

81. Wow.

It's really hard to understand why there's still so much division -- especially the resentment of the north, for me. I don't think anybody's ever explained it to me quite like that, and I appreciate your honesty.

Do you really think that along with resentment of "aggression" from a century and a half ago, feelings that we "discourage southern pride," and such hatred of northerners that our moving south is resented, opinions regarding race have NO place in that equation?

I guess the conversation hasn't convinced me there's a good reason for displaying the confederate flag considering what it means to many people today. But it's amazing to see unspoken resentments spoken. It seems the civil war never ended. I appreciate the civil, unflaming discussion!

[Endangered Specie]

82. Im not saying I approve of those sentiments...

Im trying to explain what I think I see. Keep in mind we are talking about a minority of the Southern, confederate flag waving, population. Most southerners (including myself, it is not as bad as often potrayed) are on some level proud of it, though some take it too far, and see despising the North as part of the package.

[GarySeven]

133. What are we rebelling against????

Well, what have you got?

The fact that you have to ask that question demonstrates you don't understand Southerners, which is not surprising, but more pertinently it means you DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS TO BE AN AMERICAN.

Rebellion is our national birthright and to be an American is to be always a rebel.

[Ron Green]

141. But in the South, for a white man to rebel would be to openly support

"Yankee" causes or take liberal political stances. That would be true rebellion, not just joining in with most others in the status quo.

[Sparkly]

249. Adolescent Mentality

So you're rebelling to rebel, because you're rebellious and rebellion is our national birthright and to be an American is to be always a rebel.

Okay....

"you don't understand Southerners, which is not surprising"

It certainly shouldn't be, since I used the phrase "I don't understand" at least half a dozen times in my conversation with Endangered Specie.

"you DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS TO BE AN AMERICAN."

What a condescending remark. Aren't northerners Americans too? Is this the point where I should whine, "You don't understand Northerners, wahhh!!!" No - I think we should try to keep this civil. I'm sure you can overcome your rebellion enough for that.

[Dr Fate]

60. But if they had Christmas party where black people were coming over....

...they would take it down.
I knew a dude that would remove all of his confederate nostalgia items whenever he had parties.

When I called him on it he said "..oh come on- you know if I leave it up, Daryll will get the wrong idea and think I'm racist."

Some rebels.

[Endangered Specie]

66. Actually, one could argue that it is being nice

and not wanting to offend people.

That being said, I know black people who don't really care if they see a confed flag. And most are quite willing to have a discussion about the south, its history, and flags in general and what they do and don't stand for and the contexts for which they are used.

[Dr Fate]

107. Not politeness- shame. Deep down they know better.

And Black people who choose to hold their tounge is not the issue.
Black people who, like many whites, shrug their shoulders and say to themselves "I cant change these people, but mabey someday they will" are not the issue either.

I know plenty more black people who DO NOT like it.

*I* dont like it.

Those people I speak of are probably doing it out of shame- out of the deep feeling in their heart that they its wrong.

[AirAmFan]

67. Oh, I see, they're declaring N..R-FREE ZONES by flying their racist

emblem where they're "sure" no African-American ever would see it. Not even from a passing car, or from a neighboring workplace. This argument, to the extent it's genuine, would point up the geographic apartheid Americans live under. Out of sight, out of mind, or so they say.

But once the bourbon starts flowing, don't they start slipping and using the "N-word" every 30 seconds? Come on, tell the truth.

[Dr Fate]

102. Yes. That is my experience. It's the truth.

n/t

[forgethell]

78. The difference, it seems to me,

is that the Confederacy, and its symbols, ARE a part of their heritage. The Nazi Swastika is not. If a swastika occurred as part of a Hindu, or whatever, religious motif, or a motif celebrating the displayer's heritage, I, for one, cannot see it as offensive, but rather admirable. If it was splashed on a synagogue, that would be totally different. If it occurred in a movie about the Nazis, say "Indiana Jones", I see it as neither one, simply part of the landscape.

[AirAmFan]

83. "Admirable"? Swastika? Huh?

[JVS]

45. Racist maybe, insensitive definitely

[ScaRBama]

47. A flag doesn't make you a racist....

Damn! I see plenty racist waving the good old stars and stripes.

Most of the Rebs were just used by the Big Rich Plantation owners to fight and die for their wealth. The average Reb had nothing to fight for but maybe a wood shack and a mule. They were used just like they're being used today,to fight and die for the HAVES of this country. They don't give a crap about the HAVE NOTS until they need someone to help them hold on to what they HAVE.

[Endangered Specie]

49. Im glad someone pointed this out.

[Sparkly]

53. It's racially offensive

The Civil War was a loooong time ago. The people flying that flag today did not fight in it. They didn't have a "wood shack and a mule." So no matter where they fall in debates about history, why do they wave that flag?

I do understand that many are fighting today for the "haves," as you say. I don't understand what that has to do with the confederate flag.

(And I do understand that there are alot of racists and other forms of regressive, bigoted people who fly the stars and stripes. But that doesn't change what the American flag stands for, and doesn't change what else those people think or do. In fact, it's why I advocate that Democrats display the American flag right along with signs and symbols of dissent -- we can't let them usurp that symbol, imo.)

I'm not so much trying to argue as to understand. If people know it's racially offensive, why do they fly it?

[ScaRBama]

77. I've never had a confederate flag .......

and I've lived in Alabama all my life. To me it's just part of history and nothing more. I can't speak for others but only myself.
A lot of history runs deep in my family from fighting in the Civil War. My Grandfather who lived to be 99 years old told me many stories of his Father who fought in the Civil War. He was just a dirt poor sharecropper who had nothing to fight for but the fear of the Union Army pushing into the south and killing he and his family.
He fought at the Battle Of Shiloh and until the day he died he carried a bullet in him from that battle. He returned from that stupid war and still had the same thing he had when he left....NOTHING. I can see why some think of the flag as a way of respect for those loved ones who died in that war. When they died at that time in history.....THAT WAS THEIR COUNTRY.
But for purposes other than that I see no need for it and never have.

[hollowdweller]

90. Most of the Rebs were just used by the Big Rich Plantation owners to fight

Amen! They are still being duped into voting their fears and prejudices rather than their pocketbooks.

[cattleman22]

313. Sort of

That may be true in the deep south. However, in the last few states to secede, I don't know if that was as true or not. For example Virginia had a vote of the citizens at the time (white males). The counties in what is not VA, voted to seced and the counties in what is now WVa coted not to do so. Many of the people who voted to secede were not plantation owners. Most of the people who voted did not own slaves, though most if not all were certainly what we would consider racist bigots.

[itzamirakul]

55. Sooner or later a dittohead had to

show up on this board to start problems. Why don't white southerners who live near racists try to educate them? Why not complain about racist literature and revisionist history taught to schoolchildren?

[Skittles]

56. racist or ignorant or both

yes indeed

[Swamp Rat]

92. "ditto"

[LDS Jock]

61. I voted NO

I know many who see it as a symbol of the south and of their southern heritage. That feeling is strong in the south, and this is one of the ways it shows itself. What many of them don't realize is how strongly others see it as a symbol of slavery and racism. Displaying it alone does not make you a racist.

[mikh]

63. Nice debate...

...and an intriguing question and interesting answers- from my perspective as a non-USA resident.
In this context I like the sentiment that I saw displayed recently.
"End Racism.
Kill Everyone".

[ScaRBama]

85. Yes racism runs deep and it's not all about.....

the color of ones skin.
No matter what part of the US or World you live in there are racist.

[William Bloode]

68. Flies in my yard 365....

i wear it 365 on my arm, i also wear it 6 months of the yr via a patch on my jacket. So according to 59% of you who have never known me nor talked to me i am a racist.

I wear and fly it proudly amongst folks of all colors. Sorry if it offends them but it is my right.

[Sparkly]

75. Yes, it's your right

"Sorry if it offends them..." Are you really? Do you know how and why it offends them? If so, why do you wear it?

[William Bloode]

98. No i am not...

to be totally honest. It is a part of my heritage, forgive me for being proud of my roots. Hell to be honest i won't want your forgiveness either.

What i will say is i find it appalling that some folks would choose to dislike me based on an assumption of my character. I don't mind if you dislike me, just make sure you know the real me before you do.

[Swamp Rat]

99. The symbols you regard as heritage represent the murder and

enslavement of Africans. That's what the heritage of the Southern Confederacy and its flags represent to MILLIONS of Americans, whether black, white or green. Are you really proud of that?

Now that you know the confederate flag represents the same thing as the Nazi flag to millions of Americans, will you continue to embrace this heritage of violence and hatred?

[William Bloode]

115. Yup....

I am not afraid to proud of being southern worts and all. Theres more to the south than racism and hate, but sure thats part of it.


>>edit<<

Thought i might add this tid bit for you folks. I am such a big racist the very 1st time i went to vote iwent with the express purpose of voting for Harvey Gant( a man of color) to displace Jesse Helms( a real racist piece of trash)

Being proud of the Confereadte flag is like being proud of my U.S. flag. Both have done some terrible things, but i am proud to fly them both for the good and bad.

[Swamp Rat]

128. Good luck with your fantasy world of the Great CONfederacy

Boy am I glad your tradition and heritage is dying. Yaay! Let's all burn a confederate flag in celebration of a dying culture of hate and ignorance!!! :D

"Being proud of the Confederate flag is like being proud of my U.S. flag." - For me, it's like being proud of killing 6 million Jews and wearing swastikas.

Perhaps you and your confederates are proud of this historical treason, but we Americans vehemantly disagree. You cannot be both a Southern confederate AND an American... or do you want to start another war with us?

Heil zum General Robert E. Lee und zu allen Rassistscheißeköpfen der südlichen Konföderation!!!

[DoNotRefill]

134. heh. So much for tolerance of diverse opinions....

"Boy am I glad your tradition and heritage is dying. Yaay! Let's all burn a confederate flag in celebration of a dying culture of hate and ignorance!!!"

People who would burn flags will eventually burn people.

[Swamp Rat]

138. Got your asbestos suit ready?

"heh. So much for tolerance of diverse opinions...." - Doesn't fly bud. You won't turn this around, though I figured you would try.

"People who would burn flags will eventually burn people." - That's a mighty big leap in logic. How about this: people who fly flags regardless of the meaning behind the symbol end up supporting fascist regimes.

HAHA! Now that's a lot better than your statement. :D

How much longer will it take to get to the center of the DoNotRefill racist lollipop?

[DoNotRefill]

143. Asbestos suit? What'd I tell you about burning people???

My statement was a paraphrase of Heine, who said: "Whenever they burn books, they will also, in the end, burn people."

You accuse me of being a racist. You're wrong, but I'm not going to hit the alert button for your personal attack on me, so that people can see just how intolerant you truly are. The First Amendment isn't there to protect popular speech (which needs no protection), it's there to protect UNpopular speech. Be it burning an American flag, or flying a Confederate or even a Nazi flag, it's protected speech. And if you don't like it (or if saying that makes me a racist in your book) you can, respectfully, kiss my ass.

BTW, my position on this is 100% in accordance with the stated policies of the ACLU. Yours are not.

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DoNotRefill]

148. Heh.

"nor will I defend your right to wave the confederate flag."

I've NEVER waved, much less owned, a confederate flag. Please link to a place where you think I've said I have eitehr owned or waved a confederate flag.

"You have been dancing around this issue supporting the right to fly the confederate flag, wrapping it up snug as a bug in the 1st Ammendment, and now you want to throw out the ACLU."

How have I been dancing around it? Flying a confederate flag in and of itself IS protected by the First Amendment, just as burning an American flag in and of itself is protected. There's NO "dancing around it". It's a free speech issue, cut and dried. I SUPPORT free speech, and you obviously DON'T.

[Swamp Rat]

158. Good!

How about a Nazi flag? Did you play with Panzer tanks when you were a child?

"... just as burning an American flag in and of itself is protected." - Oh, but as you said "it leads to burning people." - Congratulations. Now you have insulted 6 million dead Jews. Feel better now? LOOK AT IT DoNotRefill!!! These are the people you insult!




"I SUPPORT free speech, and you obviously DON'T." - Nope. You support HATE SPEECH!!!

[DoNotRefill]

163. You don't support free speech....

you support speech that you don't find personally offensive, and the rest can be censored as far as you're concerned. There IS a difference, my child...

[Swamp Rat]

168. You keep beating that dead horse don't you honey chile...

You support HATE speech that GOES BEYOND free speech.

Go ahead and shout "fire" in a theater all you want, and see what happens. Go ahead and wave a confederate flag in the projects... oh wait, you don't own one. OK, why don't you go and support the KKK at their rallies and explain your position all to the black folks there. Go ON! Bring your Voltaire quotes too. I'm sure they will understand.

[DoNotRefill]

170. You're mistaking support for first amendment rights...

with sympathy for obnoxious causes.

I'm not surprised. It's a concept slightly more difficult than tying one's shoes.

[Swamp Rat]

178. Hey Eienstein

Where did you get your PhD? Bob Jones Univ.?

[DoNotRefill]

179. I don't have a PhD.

J.D., yes, PhD, no. And it's none of your business where I got my degrees from. I will tell you that my J.D. comes from a First Tier State School. That rules out Bob Jones AND Regent.

BTW, when are you getting your high school diploma?

[Swamp Rat]

185. Really?

What's a lawyer "from a First Tier State School" spending so much time on DU hassling black folks and supporting hate speech?

[DoNotRefill]

190. It's the weekend....

and I have "the duty". Speaking of which, I'm almost "off duty", so it's getting close to bedtime.

BTW, I object to your categorization of me as "hassling black folks". And what you call "hate speech", I and the REST of the ACLU call "protected speech".

[Swamp Rat]

194. You've got yo' lawyer's tricks in a big brown bag

Go ahead and object all you want.

You obviously do not give a shit about how Amrican Americans feel as evidenced by this thread. I'm glad the greater DU community will see it... or will you alert now to cover your tracks?

[DoNotRefill]

197. the First Amendment covers speech....

that most people deem offensive. That's "black letter law". I'm sorry you don't like it, but frankly, that doesn't matter.

[Swamp Rat]

204. ".. but frankly, that doesn't matter." Tell that to Dr. King's widow.

Will you ever see the light DoNotRefill? Will you?

Millions of African Americans are getting tired of waiting. Maybe if you stick around long enought at DU you might, perhaps by osmosis, 'get it'.

[DoNotRefill]

206. there's no way in hell....

that I will EVER support restrictions on the First Amendment, no matter HOW offensive that speech is. Maybe one day YOU will grow up a bit....

[Swamp Rat]

215. Maybe one day African Americans will forgive people like you

But I doubt it.

[DoNotRefill]

218. Frankly...

I don't ask for anybody's forgiveness.

[Swamp Rat]

224. You should, especially since you have direct access to the legal system.

The same system that has incarcerated a large portion of the black population.

[DoNotRefill]

226. Hate to tell you this....

but you have direct access to the legal system, too.

Don't believe me???? Steal a car and find out. Just kidding about the actual "steal a car" bit, just to make sure you don't misunderstand me.

[Swamp Rat]

231. Why would you use stealing a car as an example?

Keep it up DoNotRefill. :D

[DoNotRefill]

233. Probably because...

no matter where you are, there are most likely cars present that could potentially be stolen. I could have said "distribute anthrax", but somehow, I doubt you have access to anthrax, since it's not very common.

[DoNotRefill]

207. BTW....The shooting of MLK....

was NOT protected speech. Do you REALLY need me to explain that to you???

[Swamp Rat]

214. I wonder if the assassin had a rebel flag at home?

Another lawyer trick. Nice try. :)

We are waiting for you to see the light...

[DoNotRefill]

217. I wouldn't know. I never met the man.

If he did, he had a right to have it. What he didn't have a right to do was shoot somebody.

[Swamp Rat]

223. But you said burning flags lead to burning people.

And I'm saying the confederate flag lead to hanging black people.

[DoNotRefill]

225. you have documented causation on that?

please post a link to the study that shows that possession of a confederate flag CAUSES people to hang african-americans.

I'm pretty sure there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of confederate flags out there. How many african-americans were hung last year? And if there were much fewer hangings than confederate flags out there, how can you say it is a matter of causation???

[Swamp Rat]

228. Must you reduce the suffering of millions in such a nasty way?

Boy, you are something else. x(

[DoNotRefill]

232. Typical...you make accusations, I ask for documentation....

and you switch topics while insulting me. "Sweet!!!"

[Swamp Rat]

237. Apparently your linear thinking has you completely off track.

The point was lost on you from the beginning. Yet you have avoided the original topic of how the confederate flag represents not only hatred, but DEATH to African Americans.

You support hate speech and conflate it with free speech. Does Dr. King have to come back from the other world and SHOUT IT IN YOUR FACE???

The confederate flag represents an ONGOING threat to African Americans. Get that through your thick skull.

[DoNotRefill]

240. So...

"Yet you have avoided the original topic of how the confederate flag represents not only hatred, but DEATH to African Americans."

If an african-american simply SEES a confederate flag, they'll die? Is that what you're saying? Wait, nevermind. You're no longer worth wasting my time conversing with.

Buh-bye. :hi:

[Swamp Rat]

242. OK, see you later

"If an african-american simply SEES a confederate flag, they'll die?" - Wrong question.

Why don't you do a little experiment. Put a confederate flag on your car and in front of your house. Buy a confederate flag tie and wear it every day to work. Go around and explain your version of free speech to African Americans, especially in poor neighborhoods. Will you do it? Are you man enough to back up your words?

I bet you will learn a hard lesson in life. :)

"You're no longer worth wasting my time conversing with." - Thanks for the information. My mission is accomplished. :D

[DoNotRefill]

151. "You also attacked me before about guns "

This is interesting. You accuse me of being a racist, yet you push for gun control, which has historically been the tool of choice of racists to keep minorities disarmed and therefore helpless in the face of racist violence. You SUPPORT a Jim Crow law (specifically the National Firearms Act of 1934, the LAST Federal Jim Crow law on the books), because it's "gun control". I'm sure you couch your gun control ideas under the guise of "keeping guns out of the wrong hands", but when you look at who the "wrong hands" that are specified in gun control laws, you'll find that the "wrong hands" are disproportionately young male african-american hands. How do you reconcile this? And more importantly, how do you reconcile my wanting ALL non-criminals to have easy access to firearms with my supposed racist beliefs? If I'm such a racist, why would I want african-americans to be able to buy guns easily? And why would I oppose the National Firearms Act, which makes it practically impossible for minorities to buy certain classes of guns?

[Swamp Rat]

156. Why would I push for gun control???

HA! You are classic! Trying to use Jim Crow on ME! HAHAHA!

Do you want African Americans all dead? How do YOU reconcile this?

DO YOU KNOW WHAT ITS LIKE TO LIVE IN A GHETTO?

I invite all African American DUers to look at these threads and see what you're about.

[DoNotRefill]

157. You said I attacked you on gun control.

since I support almost no gun control, you must have been supporting gun control, yes? Do you support the National Firearms Act of 1934 or not? Do you want to see all African-Americans disarmed? Do you want to see the sale of "Saturday Night Specials" restricted? If so, why?

[Swamp Rat]

165. I want to see people ALIVE!

DO YOU KNOW WHAT ITS LIKE TO LIVE IN A GHETTO???

"Do you want to see all African-Americans disarmed?" - I want to see the ATF take away YOUR guns, except your wife's shotgun. She might need it.

[DoNotRefill]

166. I dunno....

Does SE DC count as a Ghetto? If so, yeah, I do.

And ATF will NEVER take away my guns. ANY of them. INCLUDING the machineguns. Sorry. :D

[Name removed]

173. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DoNotRefill]

175. I have a lot of machineguns.

No grenades. I don't mess with explosives, since I like having all of my fingers. All of my machineguns are legal, and no, I've never thought about "killing black folks" with them.

[DoNotRefill]

167. While you're wanting to see people alive....

what OTHER civil liberties besides the First and Second Amendments are you willing to do away with? You probably don't support the fourth or fifth either...

[Swamp Rat]

176. You keep saying I don't support this or that...

The point really is: you, DoNotRefill, support HATE SPEECH, and apparently don't give a fuck about how black folks are so deeply offended by the confederate flag, that you would engage in this "intellectual" masturbation.

[DoNotRefill]

177. So you're saying your right to not be offended....

trumps the First Amendment? Cite, please.

[Swamp Rat]

184. I'll 'cite' this again:

The confederate flag = death to niggers/white power.

It is MORE than exercizing free speech. IT IS HATE SPEECH. It is meant to instill fear of an unspoken threat to the lives of all African Americans. Can you not get this through your thick skull?

You cannot refute this to African Americans (at least the ones I live with) that have lived in this "system of amendments."

[DoNotRefill]

189. Would you care to explain then...

the difference between, say, the Klan marching in Skokie wearing their robes and carrying the Confederate flag, and the American Nazis marching in Skokie, wearing Nazi uniforms and carrying Nazi flags? Why would the Klan people be "hate speech" and the Nazis be "protected speech"?

You claim to be an ACLU member. If you are, you don't know DICK about the organization.

[Swamp Rat]

193. HAHAHA!

I'm not going to 'splain nuthin' for ya. Go to the KKK/Nazi rallies, since you know so much about where they are held, and profess free speech.

[DoNotRefill]

196. I've never been to a KKK or Nazi rally...

And the Skokie case is taught in most First Amendment courses in Law School.

[Swamp Rat]

201. Why haven't you gone to protect their free speech?

Aren't you the arbiter and defender of the 1st Amendment? A lotta words but no action.

How about you do some pro bono work for the Klan? C'mon! You've been talking about free speech for Nazis and Klansmen for hours. Aren't you going to put your money where your mouth is?

[DoNotRefill]

203. Fortunately...

I get to choose who I work with. I have no interest in working with the Klan or the Nazis. And the ACLU has that well in hand, so there's no NEED for me to meddle.

[Swamp Rat]

212. This speaks volumes

Thanks for sharing.

[Yupster]

263. God must be with you

You convict a whole group of treason. No need for trials when we have Gott mit uns.

[mitchum]

264. But you must understand that so many contemporary southerners...

who are "proud of their heritage" engage in the fantasy that THEY would have been plantation-owning landed gentry. Of course, the reality is that they would have been staring at the ass of a mule from sunup to sundown.
I am also a southerner who IS proud of Wm. Faulkner, MLK, Howlin' Wolf, Francis Marion, etc..., but I have NEVER been proud of that loser rag and the stupidity and evil that it represents.

[Swamp Rat]

271. Right on brother!

Especially the part about Howlin' Wolf! :)

There are a lot of wonderful things about the South, and you mention only a few. And you also make another excellent point: most folks, whether white, black, or blue would be breaking their backs while the elite sip their tea in the shade. We should never forget the poor whites that suffered incredible brutality at the hands of a wealthy oligarchy.

Our nation is headed back to a feudal state. Their job is lessened by those that are already conditioned to accept it without question or little protestation. Fortunately, there are a lot of good people in the South. That's why I argue against use of the red state/blue state meme, defending all the good people here. This is America. Those who will attempt to divide her by race, religion, or political affiliation are unAmerican in my view and only helping the Bush cabal.

:hi:

[mitchum]

277. Yes, I have never understood what was particularly rebellious about...

a willingness to go off and die for the economic interests of a handful of wealthy landowners. Unfortunately, it is part of a pattern for the white working class southerner. Despite all of his claims of independence, the cracker has always been a willing serf of his "betters" (landed gentry, cotton mill owners, textile mill owners, German automobile manufacturers, Walton family, etc...)

On a brighter note, though...Howlin' Wolf was something, wasn't he? :)

[GodHelpUsAll2]

281. And tell me

How prey tell do you KNOW these are the fantasies? Can you read minds? Do you KNOW what others are thing on a regular basis or just people in the south? Since when did so many people start KNOWING what the intentions of others are without knowing on thing about them or even who they are?

[mitchum]

283. Uh...I said in my post that I am a southerner, so I am well aware...

of the particular fantasies in which my "brethren" indulge. One does not spend their life around these people without listening to them.

What's your fucking problem anyway? You've got something against anthropology?

[Swamp Rat]

287. It's one of my favorite subjects

This thread is quickly becoming a case study too, of socio-cultural constructs. ;)

[GodHelpUsAll2]

311. Uh........

my fucking problem is, I AM a southerner. Been here all my life, so I guess you don't have that market cornered. Funny though, I don't claim to KNOW what every other person living in the south is thinking. Now, maybe you make such claims based on your circle of friends. But I am skeptical that group is large enough for you to make such sweeping claims.

So, I will ask you again, what magical powers do you posess that allows you to KNOW what EVERYONE living in the south is thinking?

And for the record, "I'm southern, been around these people all my life" is not a sufficient answer. I have come in contact with hundred and hundres of southerners in my life but I can't tell you much about all of them based on a few minutes chance meeting or by simply seeing them.

[William Bloode]

250. Let me tell you something brutha.....

Your little argument holds no weight with me for 1 big ass reason. I am Tsalangi or a Cherokee. So by your standards i should view the American flag the same way? The U.S. tried to commit genocide against us, the southerners did not commit genocide against blacks. Salvery is bad but it aint genocide.

Also you little "we" americans, you got a mouse in your pocket? I thought we were all Americans here. If anyone has a claim to being a "real" American it's me, my ancestors have been here for 25,000yrs, got you other folks beat by about 24,500yrs.

And for those of you who dont know, we Tsalangi and other native peoples sided with the Confederacy, because of the abuse we suffered in the past.

Dont forget the U.S. wanted to free the slaves, yet wanted to still kill "Injuns" and steal our land.

As i said i can be proud of being Southern, and American, worts and all.

[Sparkly]

100. You're not sorry that you're offending people

And you find it "appalling that some folks would choose to dislike me based on an assumption of my character." It's not an assumption -- you just confirmed it. You know you're insulting many people with a symbol that represents a painful part not only of our country's past, but also of its present -- and yet you're not sorry.

It is a part of my heritage, forgive me for being proud of my roots.

Not when a past you were never a part of is more important to you than the present you ARE a part of, and people you share your country with right here, right now. Why are feelings of/about dead people more important than feelings of/about people who are alive and among us, facing discrimination and hatred today?

Hell to be honest i won't want your forgiveness either.

That's no surprise.

[Dr Fate]

108. I'll bet you dont wear it to your local Democratic party meetings.

Or to any other liberal organizations that you may or may not be a member of.

[MrBenchley]

70. Of course...

The Dixie swastika had been relegated to the dusty corners of museums after the Civil War. It re-entered national life in the early 1960s as a symbol of active resistance against the civil rights movement by those seeking to preserve Jim Crow.

[Endangered Specie]

76. I suspect that many Southerners fly it because the North tells them not to

[laura888]

80. very sad

Those who do this, should think about redefining what they think the South means. What does it stand for, beyond being grumpy that they lost the civil war? It's counter-productive to going forward.

[msmcghee]

86. Flags are symbols used to send messages to others . . .

. . not to yourself. Their value is not in what it means to you. If it was you could just think about the meaning whenever you wanted to.

Instead, it a display for others to see. They are put on flag poles, pickups, tattoos and T-shirts where others can see them. The vast majority of the people who see it will never meet the person who displays it. They will attach the message to the flag that society generally agrees is the message.

With the stars and bars - most people see it as a statement that basically says, "I'm white and slavery was not such a bad idea".

But, I don't think that part of the message is that important to most who show it. It also says, "I don't give a fuck what anybody thinks about me saying that with my flag - and I hope it offends as many "niggers", liberals and northerners as possible". I think that's the main message.

Whatever people who show that flag say - that is the message that they send because that's the message that society understands. What they say it means to them is not important - again because flags are messages for others to see, not the carrier. Even in battle, the flag is for the soldiers behind the carrier to see and follow while attacking the enemy lines.

But there's an even deeper meaning on another level, one that most people who display flags and decals don't understand. It's most important function is as a token of identity. We all have a very strong need to belong to a recognized status group in our culture. That need drives most of our important life decisions. We become the identity of the groups we belong to and identify with.

In that sense there's a big difference between the kind of person who displays a "Stop Global Warming" decal and a Confederate flag decal.

So, flying the stars and bars says a whole lot about who you are by showing everyone who it is you want to impress - and who you want to piss off - and that can cement your membership in the group you want most to identify with. That's especially true if the flag offends those who you most don't want to identify with. Because that's what flags are really for.

[quaoar]

124. You are confusing flags

This is the Stars and Bars:



The flag in the original post is the Confederate battle flag.

[lateo]

89. Hate not heritage...

[WoodrowFan]

307. its heritage IS hate (NT)

[Swamp Rat]

95. For many African Americans the confederate flag is as offensive as a Nazi

flag, and it represents not only slavery but genocide, Jim Crow, and many horrors you will never begin to understand, myself included.

Is that clear to everyone here?!?

Now, will you continue to excuse it, fly it, apologise for it under the guise of "freedom of speech?"

I dare any of the apologists on this goddam thread refute this!!! Go ahead and play "Devils's Advocate!"

[Sparkly]

97. Crystal clear

I'm with you 100%. :hi:

[Catherine Vincent]

112. Right on, Swamp Rat!

[DoNotRefill]

135. Try some Voltaire:

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

That even applies to people carrying rebel flags.

[Swamp Rat]

145. Bull fucking shit! Not if you are African American and you want to wave

your 'rebel' flag in front of my face. See if I defend you with my prescious life! Man, you are on your own!

Try some Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.: "I have a dream!"... that the racism of "Southern Heritage" will die with it's partisans!

WE SHALL OVERCOME
WE SHALL OVERCOME
WE SHALL OVERCOME

WE ARE NOT AFRAID
WE ARE NOT AFRAID
WE ARE NOT AFRAID

[DoNotRefill]

149. OK, so now that we've ascertained that you piss on the First Amendment...

where do we go from here?

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DoNotRefill]

154. How do you figure I "piss on black people"?

I suppose the ACLU "pissed on Jews" when they sided with the American Nazis in Skokie?

Free speech cuts BOTH WAYS. And your position is NO DIFFERENT from the Freepers, except that you have a (D) after your name and they have an (R) after theirs. BOTH of you want to muzzle speech that you find offensive. Well, I hate to tell you this, but there's no "right to not be offended" in the Bill of Rights.

[Swamp Rat]

162. You are defending HATE speech.

Are you blinded by the 'white'? It appears so.

Mods, please don't delete these posts. I want all the other DUers to see this.

[DoNotRefill]

164. Once again...

"The First Amendment exists precisely to protect the most offensive and controversial speech from government suppression. The best way to counter obnoxious speech is with more speech. Persuasion, not coercion, is the solution."

If that means I defend "hate speech", well...mea culpa...

[Swamp Rat]

171. ¡Exatamente! Sua culpa.

[DoNotRefill]

174. Here's the link that quote came from:

http://www.aclu.org/FreeSpeech/FreeSpeechMain.cfm

I guess they support hate speech too...I guess I'm in good company then...

[Swamp Rat]

182. I am a member of the ACLU

But you are not going to get away with this DoNotRefill. You are conflating HATE SPEECH with free speech. Go ahead and call someone a nigger to their face. Go on. Explain how it is free speech.

You have engaged in a colossal straw man, shifting the focus away from the hatred and bigotry inextricably linked to the confederate flag.

[DoNotRefill]

183. Well, then I'd suggest you go back and reread their position pieces...

and remember how they SUPPORTED the American Nazis right to march in Skokie. IIRC, they may have also filed amicus briefs for cases involving the Klan too.

Or are the American Nazis not into hate speech?

[Swamp Rat]

188. Ever been to Dachau?

The ACLU doesn't tell me what to think, DoNotRefill. I think for myself.

Go ahead and support your Nazi friends and their hate speech. It just may lead to a lot of "burned people." Hee hee! See how we've come full circle. :D

[DoNotRefill]

191. Actually, yeah, I've been to Dachau, Auchwicz, and Nurenburg.

I don't have any Nazi friends. And I don't have any friends in the Klan. No matter how many times you falsely accuse me of that, it doesn't change the facts. But I suppose it makes you feel bigger, so go ahead.

[Swamp Rat]

199. OK. I'm glad you have been there, but it makes me wonder why you say some

of the things you say... and stay away from the Nazis/KKK rallies as they are bad for one's health.

I'll give you this: I think you are smart and have done very well keeping the focus on your point of free speech. Unfortunatley for you, there are other folks here, without college educations, that can see through the tactics employed in this exchange.

I feel big for sure. I feel very gratified that I defended the oppressed against the bigoted elite, even if they are unwilling to look at it. I am very happy that other DUers can look at this thread and judge for themselves. It was very obvious what the real point of the thread was about in the first place and what my objections were.

[DoNotRefill]

202. You say:

"Unfortunatley (sic) for you, there are other folks here, without college educations, that can see through the tactics employed in this exchange."

That's EXACTLY the kind of mentality that gets us saddled with crap like PATRIOT. Damaging civil liberties because you don't like what some asswipes do with those civil liberties is EXACTLY how we got into our current position, where the First, Second, Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendments are under massive attack. And the civil liberties that the nuttiest, most offensive, tinfoil-hat wearing crowd have are the EXACT SAME CIVIL LIBERTIES THAT THE REST OF US HAVE. When you take civil liberties away from the Klan or the Nazis, you take them away from ALL of us. And that's REALLY a piss-poor idea. I'd think even the GED crowd could understand that.

[Swamp Rat]

208. I read the Patriot Act, though the legalese was difficult.

In fact, I discussed it in person with Nadine Strossen. Can you let the ACLU bit go? It's getting very tired.

"That's EXACTLY the kind of mentality that gets us saddled with crap like PATRIOT." - Wrong. It's greedy, unethical lawyers that wrote that piece of trash and you know that. Don't blame the poor, uneducated for what slimeball lawers created.

"That's EXACTLY the kind of mentality that gets us saddled with crap like PATRIOT." - Aren't you the elitest in his Ivory Tower. What a waste of education.

[DoNotRefill]

209. why should I let the ACLU bit go???

You've accused me of all kinds of racist crap for my position on this, which perfectly mirrors the ACLU's position on this. By extension, you're accusing the ACLU of being racist for standing up for civil liberties that you object to. I find this position of yours to be more than a little bizarre.

[Swamp Rat]

219. Perfectly?

I'm still wondering why the ACLU has anything to do with the hatred the confederate flag represents to African Americans.

It's quite obvious that I stand for civil liberties, but I know you have been attempting from the outset to put me on the defensive. It ain't gonna work. This is your trial... for your immortal soul.

[DoNotRefill]

221. Yes, PERFECTLY....

Hell, I gave you a link to their site, where I took the quote I was using. I cited the Skokie case, which is "on the four corners". What the fuck MORE do you want???

You have no right or authority to put my "immortal soul" on trial.

[Swamp Rat]

227. Shame on you. Didn't they have an ethics class at your law school?

"You have no right or authority to put my "immortal soul" on trial." - But it already IS on trial. You put it there yourself.

Here's what you must do to save your soul. Give half of your savings to a charity that helps poor, African Americans. Then do pro bono work for the rest of your life, taking a case here and there. After all, aren't you a progressive who is LUCKY enough to have the poisition you hold? Well, put it to some use and help those who were oppressed by the confederate flag wavers you were defending earlier... or are you really a "compassionat conservative?"

Put your money where your mouth is DoNotRefill!

[DoNotRefill]

229. I already do pro bono work...

and I routinely give money to various charities, not that it's any of your goddamned business. Believe it or not, I take CLE classes, too. And frankly, given your positions and behavior in this thread, your suggesting a course of action to me is more likely to get me to STOP on that path than to continue to go down it.

[Swamp Rat]

234. It's ALL my fault!

I'm going to cause you to STOP giving to charities and doing pro bono. HAHAHAHA!!! Man, you are soo transparent. :D

Keep it up. You are doing well.

[DoNotRefill]

236. Nope...

Pro bono work, like CLE, is expected if a person is to remain in good standing with the State Bar Association.

[Swamp Rat]

238. Well GOOD! Then you can represent some black folks on death row.

That'll be a good, lifetime occupation for you. Hell, take a few more cases and do more than the minimum required by the SBA. In fact, there's a black woman on death row in Texas. Why don't you, in good conscience, drop everything you are doing and go defend her life.

Put your money where your mouth is DoNotRefill.

[DoNotRefill]

241. Ummm....because...

I'm not licensed in Texas???

Where do you get off telling me what I MUST do???

Haven't you read the 13th Amendment?

[Swamp Rat]

243. Excuses excuses.

"Where do you get off telling me what I MUST do???" - I just DID get off! :D

[DoNotRefill]

213. BTW...

everybody hates and condemns lawyers, until they get arrested. Then they want the slimiest lawyer that they can find to save their sorry asses.

[Swamp Rat]

220. What a jaded view of justice.

I hope you are not a public defender. Lord knows how many black folks ended up in prison because of lawyers that didn't give a shit about their lives.

[DoNotRefill]

222. Heh...

:D

[DoNotRefill]

235. BTW....

everybody, regardless of skin color, has the right to represent themselves in court if they don't like or trust their lawyer. Normally, such a course of action ends up with a much steeper penalty than even a public defender "that didn't give a shit about their lives" would have gotten for them. Funny how that works...

[DoNotRefill]

160. Here ya go:

"The First Amendment exists precisely to protect the most offensive and controversial speech from government suppression. The best way to counter obnoxious speech is with more speech. Persuasion, not coercion, is the solution."

Care to guess who wrote that? Hint: It wasn't YOU.

[DoNotRefill]

150. BTW....

what other forms of unpopular free speech don't you approve of or think should not be allowed???

[Swamp Rat]

152. Btw Einstein,

when did you stop beating your wife?

[DoNotRefill]

155. I've never beaten my wife.

She has a handgun and knows how to use it, and would shoot me in a heartbeat if I raised a hand against her. Why do you ask? Need some pointers in case you ever find a spouse?

[Swamp Rat]

159. HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Maybe I already have a girlfriend - wait till your next child comes out a little darker than usual. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DoNotRefill]

161. Not likely...

My wife has both taste and class, so you're out of the running.

[Swamp Rat]

169. Why do you bring your wife into this anyway?

A REAL man would NEVER do that. That's so chickenshit. :puke:

[DoNotRefill]

172. YOU brought my wife into this....

with your "when did you stop beating your wife" comment.

[Swamp Rat]

180. Ah, I thought you'd see how I'm not falling for the tired, overly used

leading statements and questions. I really wasn't talking about YOUR wife. I figured you were smart enought to at least see that, but I guess I was wrong...

[DoNotRefill]

181. Hey....if somebody says something directed at me...

using personal pronouns indicating that they are speaking to me, why exactly should I conclude that they are NOT speaking to me?

[Swamp Rat]

186. Well, you went after me first so I defended myself as well as all the

African Americans that have had to endure people like you for centuries.

[DoNotRefill]

187. I "went after" you?!?!?!?

I asked you a simple question about what other rights you didn't think were necessary.

If you think insulting me and my wife is "defending yourself", then I'm no longer angry at you, I merely pity you.

[Swamp Rat]

192. Leave your wife outta this.

You already know I was letting you know that I was onto that type of 1st year law school trick. Yet you keep bringing her back in this. Poor thing.

"I asked you a simple question about what other rights you didn't think were necessary." - See, another 1st grade trick to deflect from the topic of the confederate flag and what it means to African Americans.

You know you were trying to antagonise me as we already have a history of you attacking me. I'm never going to let you off the hook DoNotRefill. You drew first blood. Don't try to innocently back out of it. Plus, this is cathartic for me and quite informative for the DU community. :)

WE SHALL OVERCOME!!!

[DoNotRefill]

198. You say: "WE SHALL OVERCOME!!!"...

which other constitutionally protected civil liberties will you overcome? And how have you managed to convince yourself that overcoming parts of the Bill of Rights that offend you is a LIBERAL or PROGRESSIVE position at all?

[Swamp Rat]

200. See, you prove my point again.

Why conflate the liberation of African Americans with a pitiful lawyer's trick...

[DoNotRefill]

205. Are you or are you not....

saying that people should NOT have the right to fly the Confederate flag? IIRC, you've said that it's "hate speech", which suggests that you want to ban it. That's CENSORSHIP, PLAIN AND SIMPLE. It's no "lawyer's (sic) trick".

[Swamp Rat]

211. I'm not on the witness stand. You are.

This is your trial DoNotRefill. The case is very old, as it began over 400 hundred years ago, but it is prescient. The confederate flag is the article of evidence in question. How will you defend it? How will you excuse the years of pain and suffering that the flag represents to African Americans?

[DoNotRefill]

216. What gives you the right to "try" me?

YOU are the one saying we need to restrict long-standing civil liberties to satisfy YOU. You have an over-inflated sense of your own self-worth.

[devilgrrl]

103. Not if the person displaying it is Black.

I swear, blacks should make the stars and bars their's - adopt it - make it yours!

[Bridget Burke]

106. From Gary Bledsoe, Texas NAACP--back in 2000

"How can this be an issue of heritage when the Confederate Battle Flag never flew over Texas or any other southern state for that matter? It first appeared on the Texas Supreme Court in 1955, a year after the infamous desegregation case, Brown v. Board of Education. It was raised over the statehouse of South Carolina in 1962 and became the mascot of Hays High School in 1967, during the height of the Civil Rights Movement. Today, it is the preferred symbol of white supremacists, neo-Nazis and hate groups."

"It seems interesting that people became heritage conscious just as the country was dealing with ensuring blacks the right to vote, desegregating public schools and public places and dismantling the Ku Klux Klan," Bledsoe said. "I can understand why some people want to embrace the Confederacy and its symbols as representing 'states rights.' That is far preferable to the truth - that the Confederacy and the Battle flag stood for the immoral, indecent and inhuman institution of slavery."

www.texasnaacp.org/flag.htm

[Sympleesmshn]

110. Consider this

The confederacy was part of our past, a past many fellow southerners hold dear. When you consider the war, the flag dose not stand for a race, rather a way of life. Also, one could make the argument that by not accepting the fact that some people are proud of their southern heritage, they are, themselves, not being accepting, and in some cases racist.

[ret5hd]

111. or "does being a racist make one display the confederate flag?"

kinda chicken and egg question, isn't it?

[Fifth of Five]

113. I have lived in the South all my life,

and I unequivocally say that, despite protestations to the contrary, those who fly that flag are racists.

[ret5hd]

114. lets be real, placebo..is this picture racist? you know the one..this one-

[knight_of_the_star]

118. Nope, just makes them in denial

I would love to see the South TRY to rise again.

[underpants]

119. No fukcing Yankess didn't grow up with so you don't understand it

Stop painting the south with one brush and they will stop painting you as shitheads.

HEY a late Satruday night post!

[BiggJawn]

121. I just don't understand WHY I would see one 100 miles north of the Ohio...

What's up with THAT?
I realize this is where your granpappy's Model "T" packed it in on his way to that job with Pontiac in '39, but isn't it about time you either moved back to Hazard or became a Native Hoosier?

I'm not so sure it says "Racist" to me, but it sure as hell screams "Dumb-Fuck Cooter!"

[KenCarson]

122. can we make that DFC for short?

...

[BiggJawn]

123. Ja, Shore...n/t

[cattleman22]

314. I agree

I can somewhat understand seeing such a flag in a Southern State, but I can not understand seeing one North of the Ohio River. I have seen quite a few in the state of OH.

[rebelskypirate]

125. "Offended", Labels, and Hate, IMO

Hello All,

As a Southerner and avid student of history, I do have a take on the Battle Flag, but 1st I would like to comment on the "offended" issue. 1st off, is there a "right not to be offended" somewhere I missed? Also HOW and WHO defines what "offended" is? Also, the words "HATE" or "hate crime" is often used to try and suppress display of the Battle Flag or attack those who display it, but we should be very careful about this "slippery slope", consider this:

I am sure there are many conservatives who are VERY offended by things said here on DU (no question they are), and there are "hateful" posts here (of course, the mods delete many of them), but again, "hate" is in the eye of the beholder........so should "offended" conservatives have the right to label this a "hate" site and close it down? Of course not, yet all too often we seek to impose restrictions on things WE do not like......whats the difference? If we can silence our critics by throwing the word "hate" around, how long before it is turned on us, esp with the enemies of DU having the full power of the US Govt behind them......think about that!

As to the flag issue, To me, flying a Battle Flag(on private property) is an exercise of free speech, even one that does offend people, the same way porn offends many people, or any other number of things, but a FREE country is gonna have disagreement, and should.

There are many things others do that I am personally offended by(such as burning the flag) but last time I checked......we live in a FREE country, and that means tolerance vs trying to silence those we do not agree with with charges of "racist" or "hate crime" or whatever label. Of course, tolerance does NOT mean that the offended person loses their rights to strongly dis-agree and voice their opinion in every way.

As to the issue of the Battle Flag, I feel that has indeed been used by some to show their hatred of others. But so have many other symbols(including the American flag) and while racism does exist and sadly may always, fact is NO living American is a victim of slavery nor was oppressed under any Confederate flag.....unlike Jews who survived the Holocaust that were murdered by the SS wearing the swastika

Another comment against the Battle Flag is the "IF the South would won" theme of slavery would still exist today if that had occurred. In my opinion, that is very, very unlikely, for these reasons:

- If the CSA wins in 1862 or 1863, the reason would be one man: Robert E. Lee. In 1867, the CSA would elect a new President, and there is little doubt it would have been Lee.....who HATED slavery and would have worked to eliminate it
- A few years after the Civil War, the combine is invented, a device that would have rendered slavery UN-profitable(much as the cotton gin kept it alive) and it would have died off within 20 years at the outside

IMO, slavery was going out no matter whether the bloodiest war in American history was fought or not. Of course, there is no question the Civil War speeded its demise up by some years, however the "was it worth it?" debate would be its own thread(or many threads)

I am in NO WAY attempting to defend the EVIL of slavery, not at all. But has been 142 years since the Emancipation Proclamation, and 138 years since the 13th Amendment, a LONG time ago. While history should be studied and learned from, I for one am tired of hearing how I as a southerner I am somehow responsible for something that happened 7 score years ago....of course, some will dis-agree, as is their right.

In the end, I think it is more important to look at the person flying the Battle Flag(and WHY), vs the flag itself, the same way one should not assume anyone who watches porn is a pervert, or anyone who listens to country music is a hick, or anyone who burns a American flag is a traitor. Labels only serve to further divide us, and the emotions they generate block the flow of information that is vital for a free nation to last. We must always defend free expression, but nothing says we have to AGREE with the expression, or not try to convince the expresser it is wrong. But we should NEVER censor disagreeable or offensive things using the power of govt or the courts....less we someday find ourself censored by the very "hate crimes" methods we passed with "good intentions"

As someone once said, "The Bill of Rights exists to protect us from men with good intentions"

Take care all, and have a great holiday

[Slickriddles]

127. The real question - does flying the "Stars and Stripes"

make you a racist? I don't believe a slave ship flying a Confederate flag ever pulled up to the coast of Africa to take on "cargo." But many ships flying the "Star Spangled Banner" did. Also the Confederate flag stood for institutionalized slavery for all of four years. The "Stars and Stripes" did so for seventy six years as well as standing for segregation for another 100 years.

[Swamp Rat]

131. Red herring

The confederate flag - TODAY - stands for genocide and slavery of African Americans.

[Ron Green]

258. Just as the "Battle Flag" stands today for a backward-looking and racist

"states' rights" approach to government, so is the Stars and Stripes coming more and more to stand for greed and imperialism throughout the world. I refuse to fly the the Stars and Stripes (and I'm a disabled US veteran) until the republic for which it stands starts behaving less badly.

[trotcop]

129. It just makes you a hillbilly

[Yupster]

139. Irony can be so ironic

During the Civil War, there were mountain folk (West Virginia, eastern Tennessee, western North Carolina) in the south who were often very much pro-union and anti-secession. They had only small family farms in the mountains, no plantations and almost no slaves. The people were the poorest and least educated.

There was a bit of a Civil War within the Confederacy between the Johnny Rebs of the cities, valleys and coasts and the Billy Yanks of the hills.

That's where the name hillbillies comes from.

They were the southerners who did not support the Confederacy.

[Dr Fate]

252. Damn- I did not know that- neat info.

n/t

[Bush was AWOL]

130. Yes.

They lost, it's time for them to move on. How would Southerners feel if we flew a Russian, French or Canadian flag? It's the same thing, imo.

[DoNotRefill]

137. Rrrrrr?

"How would Southerners feel if we flew a Russian, French or Canadian flag? It's the same thing, imo."

I see Canadian flags flying in the South all the time. It's to make the tourists feel at home, and it's not flown for racist purposes.

[Yupster]

140. They are moving on

There are fewer Starry Crosses flying around than there were 20 years ago, and much less talk or learning about the history. Half (2/3?) the people in the south today have no ancestors who fought in the war. It's being forgotten.

A wound that deep just takes a lot of time to heal. These people felt they were entirely in the right. They stood up for their rights and fought bravely and competently. They fought as long and as hard as they could until they had nothing left to fight with. They still had to give up and had everything taken from them. They lost their cities, their factories, their railroads, their livestock, the best of their fathers and sons, and they were made destitute. Look at it from their point of view. A wound that bad takes generations to heal, but it is surely healing every year.

BTW - there is much the government could have done to hasten the healing, but it did not. Today we are a lot smarter in how we treat our defeated enemies.

On edit, maybe if Lincoln had lived .....

[Blue_Tires]

136. it all depends

because it's used for both racist and nonracist methods...even though the split is probably about 80-20

[Wonk]

142. If you think it isn't racist you're a fucking idiot or in denial. nt

[Lexingtonian]

146. Ignorant at best

I think the car, the "General Lee" of The Dukes of Hazard, deserves something of a pass. (To me, the Duke Family was cast as Caucasians in body but written to be American Indians in their spirit. Which is actually a thing that a sizeable number of rural whites are, at least outside their churches....)

But yes, the Stars and Bars is usually about 'heritage' (or whatever they're calling it now) and should have been lowered at Appomattox C.H. for the last time, ever.

[bklyncowgirl]

195. Not 100% true, but it sure gives, shall we say, a certain impression.

More like 99% of the time they're racists.

When I see someone with a Confederate flag, my immediate reaction is "Redneck Racist Asshole"

Usually I'm right. In a few cases (very few) I've talked to the person and found that he's actually more into rebellion than racism and a few people who are proud of their "Southern Heritage" but are not racists on an individual basis.

[ernstbass]

244. I've seen bumper stickers that say "Heritage not Hatred"

but I think that most people who display the confederate flag do it with racist intentions.

[VioletLake]

254. more like

"Heritage of Hatred"

[ScaRBama]

247. The true nature of the beast....

lies in the heart of man. I think most American Indians would see the stars and stripes through the same eyes as most Black people see the Confederate Flag. The stars and stripes were proudly flown in front of the charging Calvary as they killed the American Indians and pushed them off their land. Savages,Savages that's all they were to them. All this was done in the name of country and flag was nothing less than genocide.
Every flag flown in this world has at one time flown in disgrace to the nations and people of their land.
The flag is nothing more than a piece of cloth sewn together,but the true test is what values are sewn in the hearts of the people.

[amazona]

248. i am from the south and i think so

Why put up a flag that you know is hurtful to your neighbors? Even if it wasn't racist, it just seems tacky.

[Astrochimp]

251. Is my Father who flys the USMC and Raider battle flag, a racist?

Far from it. My brother married a girl who's mother was from Japan, and Father from the Navy, and she is as much Dad's little girl as my "American" wife.

It is his history, and when he is gone, I will display them in my home, and fly them on certain days.




You know, its crap like this the re thugs feed off of.

Dem's hate- the stars and bars, fast cars, big trucks, huntin' and fishin', Santa, big breasted weather girls,...........Hell, anything "American"

Now there are things that matter.

This is not one of them.

Fight the guy using nigger, not the guy flying "his" flag.

David

[depakid]

255. Does flying the swastika make you anti-semetic?

Simple as that, Southern apologists notwithstanding.

[shawn703]

256. Attitudes like that make us look more close-minded than the Republicans

It could also be a sign they're anti-establishment. They could be fans of the Dukes of Hazzard show. Assuming all people who display the Confederate flag are racist is no better than the stereotypes we accuse the right-wing of promoting about other people.

[VioletLake]

257. More close-minded than the Republicans?

Anti-establishment? Fans of the Dukes of Hazzard show?

LOL

[shawn703]

286. You laugh?

This is one of the stupid issues we take up that make us look hypocritical to many people who should be voting for us. We're supposed to be the defenders of free speech - it's okay to burn the Stars and Stripes, but not okay to display the Southern Cross?

Sure, you can say that you don't really want people who display the Confederate flag to vote for you anyway - but that's not the only group of people whose votes you're losing. There are many people out there who don't display the flag but don't think the government should be able to tell them whether or not they can have one either.

Really, you can point to just about any flag and condemn it because of atrocities that were committed while it was being flown. It doesn't mean everyone displaying the flag is displaying it out of support for those atrocities. Or does everyone who has an American flag support the "relocation" of the American Indians?

[VioletLake]

302. Yes, I laugh - out loud.

Here's the point, shawn703: it's your right to display practically anything you like, and it's my right to be offended - or not - by it.

Do you have a problem with that?

[SheepyMcSheepster]

262. people do not always agree on what a symbol symbolizes.

it is absurd to assume that ALL people who sport a confederate flag are rascists.

[NuttyFluffers]

265. pretty surely it does.

1/2 my family is sourthern. my ancestry had members fight on both sides of that war. it was a dead symbol for most sane people for ages, only blatant racists brought it from the ashes in defiance of changes made in reconstruction. of course racism is a huge component of it.

here's a simple thing, for all the people proud of southern heritage and yet still try to support this flag, did anyone ask WHY this symbol? why not a less controversial symbol? why not a symbol divorced from such bitter feelings, a flag based on happier, more pleasant memories and traditions? why didn't they make a new emblem of the ideals they idealize? why must it be THIS FLAG? isn't that a big fucking, 'Captain Obvious,' clue?

it was chosen specifically for the bitterness, for the divisiveness, for the darker, more evil, vicious memories and idealized traditions by a particular group. they wanted division, and now several liberal southerners are now all confused because of it. it was this intention *from the beginning* WHY this symbol was chosen. no other reason. because if they really wanted to celebrate southern culture, with its gentility and proper manners, why would they choose something that causes so much 'un-southern-like' animosity and uncivility. it is the very point to cause division, rancor, and poison, with a very thin veneer of 'respectability.'

for all of those who love your southern culture, go make another symbol. go, be creative, encapsulate all the honor, getility, chivalry, etc. you want into a NEW FLAG. hell, it's been all these years, WHY HAVEN'T YOU DONE IT ALREADY? go! go make a new flag and end this discussion. if you really loved your southern culture you could look beyond its darkest time and find something more beautiful to represent it. THAT is the real issue. the ball is in your court now.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

266. The South needs to stop fighting the Civil War.

Generations of resentment toward the North is getting REALLY old, and has caused this country to regress. It has also ruined American politics. Southerners can kid themselves all they want about the Stars and Bars being a symbol of Southern pride, but it is a symbol of hate. And this has infused their politics for generations. It's time to move on.

[ecstatic]

268. Many of those flag wavers get irritated when blacks bring up slavery

Can't have it both ways! If you're going to stay in the past, let's discuss reparations.

[Ripley]

270. Does DU really need to air this rerun over and over ad naseum?

I think the debate above between swamp rat and donotrefill is pretty much the story. Why does this keep dragging on forever?

I can think of other divisive flamebait OP's that would not be allowed to get over 10 posts, much less 250 posts. Namely Israel/Palestine or Guns.

What gives with this?

[Placebo]

272. OH. MY. GOD.

Why did this thread have to get so personal, dirty, and ugly? Can't we have a civil conversation in this forum anymore?

[Wonk]

274. You didn't think it would become divisive when you started the thread?

Sure, whatever... :eyes:

[Placebo]

275. You just never stop launching personal attacks on me, Wonk.

I don't know what your problem is.

[Wonk]

276. Where's the personal attack in post #142 or #274?

Stop playing the victim, kid. Nobody is buying it.

[Bridget Burke]

278. You started a flamebait thread....

Then you complain when the flames begin.

Alas, you're just too sensitive...

[Swamp Rat]

300. Cheer up, Brian.

You know what they say.
Some things in life are bad.
They can really make you mad.
Other things just make you swear and curse.
When you're chewing on life's gristle,
Don't grumble. Give a whistle.
And this'll help things turn out for the best.
And...
Always look on the bright side of life.

:D

I hope you don't mind that I reposted your post (#106) in this thread and another. It was very good! - like flypaper with super-glue. ;)

[Wonk]

298. Hmmm, look what the cat dragged in...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2820328&mesg_id=2820548&page=

[Swamp Rat]

299. Have you seen this thread?

It's like trying to sell a bridge to folks from Brooklyn.:D

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2820328&mesg_id=2820328

[Redleg]

282. Not necessarily but it does have significant slavery overtones.

The confederacy was a group of states who supported the slave system and wanted the federal govt. off their backs but didn't mind govt. handouts. Sounds familiar... hmmmm.

[m berst]

291. almost 300 posts

About the Confederate battle flag. Symbol of opposition to the civil rights movement and desegregation. On a Democratic board.

I find it shameful.

[Swamp Rat]

293. Me too

We're getting a lot of fish in one barrel though. ;)

[m berst]

296. "We're getting a lot of fish in one barrel though."

I like that. :)

[Old Mouse]

301. What an amazing topic.

I think this is indicative of how far understanding between the races has to go.

Anyone who can defend the purposeful and proud display of the symbol of an economic system based on the dehumanization of an entire ethnic group is bigoted.

The problem is not their desire to identify with the symbol or the better ideals of the era it represents, the problem is the inability on the part of the person to emphasize with the 400 years of deliberate enslavement, suffering, torture, murder, rape, forced breeding, infanticide, destruction and looting of real and personal property, destruction of families, homes, and communities,and tribal genocide that flag means to others.

The unwillingness to subvert the desire to publicly revere a symbol despite the extreme emotional horror it brings to an entire race of people, right here and right now, not one hundred years ago, shows a self-centered lack of decency that can only be called racism.

[Swamp Rat]

305. Well said

It's as if they REFUSE to empathize.

"... shows a self-centered lack of decency that can only be called racism." - I got deleted in a post above for directly stating that I "believe" that another poster is a racist - this applies to a number of posters in this thread, though I cannot name them. The rest of the DU community can see for themselves.

I am quite satisfied that this thread drew them out in the open. Very satisfied.

Thank you for your empathy, understanding, and humanism so lacking in this country today.

:thumbsup:

:kick:

[Old Mouse]

309. You are so right!

It is that REFUSAL that confuses and angers me. I can't believe you have even had to argue common sense against such convoluted logic.

FYI - I pass the paper bag test, so I am not unbiased about this.

[THUNDER HANDS]

303. Does NOT displaying it NOT make you a racist?

I know a lot of racist people who don't display the confederate flag.

I don't think it makes you racist, per say, but it is a little dumb, IMO. Can't southern folks just get over the confederacy already?

[blindpig]

304. out of a strictly historical setting, yes

All of the arguments about The Flag and the Confederacy ultimately come back to slavery. Scratch the most genteel flyer of The Flag hard enough and some racism will reveal itself. States Rights, well what right is in contention?, Oh, the right to own slaves. Trade/tariffs? The trade in question was produced by slavery. To argue otherwise is to deny the wrongness of slavery.

[Selwynn]

308. It depends on the person and to context - it could just make you ignorant

[Sparkle]

310. Well well, we have a Swamp Rat and a Magic Rat on DU.

Are there any others? Pack Rat? Wood Rat? Dirty Rat?

:-)

[w4rma]

312. You know how you make a symbol worthless for presenting a message? Coopt

the symbol. Attach a new message to the symbol.

The symbol isn't going away any time soon. But that message that some who use the symbol to present can be diluted. The symbol is also historical. Use it as a historical symbol. Use it as a symbol of mistakes made and overcome.

[cattleman22]

315. It means the person is racially insensitive at the minimum

But I do understand why a person may be proud of the Confederate battleflag and not proud of the Confederacy.

I have never flown a Confederate flad as I have no reason to do so. However, my ancestors fought under Stonewall Jackson in the 1st Virginia Brigade. While I am not proud that they fought to defend slavery, I am proud of how they fought against such odds to defend the state of Virginia. Under the best of circumstances, at least half of R. E. Lee's army was barefoot. It was also not unusual for his soldiers to run out of ammo and have to resort to throwing rocks. At one point, his soldiers had to march for 5 days without rations. The way they fought was valiant. Because of that, I can understand why some, though not I, would think that flying the battleflag is about pride of heritage and not hate.

Maybe it is different for me since everyone of my ancestors before me, since the late 1600's lived only in VA and thought of themselves primarily as Virginians.