What's the REAL purpose of the pro-fetus, anti-women, anti-welfare people?

[Cronus Protagonist]

I suspect it has to do with making more white people. It's the one thing that the southern racists worry about most - racial purity. The decline in the white children's birth rate is their biggest fear - losing to the more actively expressed gene pool of brown people.

I think that may be why the KKK, southern racists and white Christian evangelicals comprise the most vocal core of the anti-choice movement.

What do you think?

[LoZoccolo]

1. I think you're trying to sidestep an impasse.

I just admit it's there, and leave it at that.

[Cronus Protagonist]

2. What's the impasse? (eom)

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[LoZoccolo]

4. Oh like I even have to tell you.

Now you're trying to deny an impasse.

Funny thing about putting thoughts in other peoples' heads - they're the first to know you're wrong. The practice is strictly aimed at rallying the people on your own side.

[Cronus Protagonist]

6. Well, both your posts went way over my head

And, by the way, read my response again. No denial there. Why don't you explain instead of acting mysterious and all knowing?

[LoZoccolo]

9. Actually - answer me something.

This theory you have (which doesn't make any sense as the abortion rate for black people is higher than that of white people) is honestly the simplest explanation you can think of?

[Cronus Protagonist]

13. Forget it

There's no point in trying to communicate with you. You won't clarify your own cryptic messages, so why bother?

[LoZoccolo]

15. I asked you a question.

Why won't you answer it? Maybe I was getting to something.

[Wonk]

25. He asked you one first, and you also ignored his question first. nt

[LoZoccolo]

26. [Forget] it.

My whole point is, I believe the anti-abortion position is what they say it is, it is at an impasse with a pro-choice position, and any conspiracy theory about what goes on in the mind of someone advocating the anti-abortion position is just sidestepping that impasse, and is furthermore stupid because your opponents are the first people to know it's wrong.

[Cronus Protagonist]

27. Thanks, Wonk, but don't encourage him

I put him on ignore.

[LoZoccolo]

40. Back to you, then.

I was thinking of reclaiming my time long before you ever did this.

[intheflow]

3. Sure, that and

more babies of any color who are born poor grow up to volunteer for the Army to get out of poverty.

AND

The fear that feminists immasculate young boys. From Focus on the Family: http://www.family.org/docstudy/newsletters/a0032398.cfm

AND

"The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution." (http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm)

[Cronus Protagonist]

20. That quote on fascism sure puts more perspective on it

Ain't that the truth.

[Neoma]

5. i agree.

i think it also has to do with controling women though. :grr:

[Kool Kitty]

17. Bingo, Neoma!

It has everything to do with controlling women. And :grr: is right.

[Muzzle Tough]

7. I think the CDC is accurate.

The abortion rate for blacks is much higher than for whites, so I don't think the anti-abortion movement is motivated by racism.

For the record, I am totally pro-choice. I just don't want your claim of racism as a motivation for being anti-abortion to go unchallenged.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.htm

The abortion ratio for black women (503 per 1,000 live births) was 3.0 times the ratio for white women (167 per 1,000 live births). Additionally, the abortion ratio for women of other races (329 per 1,000 live births) was 2.0 times the ratio for white women. The abortion rate for black women (30 per 1,000 women) was 3.1 times the rate for white women (10 per 1,000 women), whereas the abortion rate for women of other races (22 per 1,000 women) was 2.2 times the rate for white women.

[Cronus Protagonist]

10. These numbers are not what motivates white racists to vote

White racists vote overwhelmingly for policies that remove social services from their own children. It's obviously not because more black women are having abortions, but could it have something to do with preventing more white women having them?

And your numbers support the fact that white women are, in fact, having less abortions. I don't think this is only due to the anti-choice, anti-women, anti-welfare laws, but more to do with social values and education, other areas that really shed more light on white racist's hidden agendas.

I wonder how many poor white women are supporting a truck load of babies because they have no access to birth control or abortions. And how many of the white racists who live with these women and create the babies are supporting and voting for laws that continue to keep them in servitude, barefoot and pregnant.

Surely you're not denying that the core group who promotes all of these movements (anti-choice, anti-abortion, anti-health education, anti-contraception, anti-welfare) is overwhelmingly the white racist Christian segment of the US population?

Besides, I'm just musing here. I happened to notice that it was always lilly-white republican racists who love to stand up and support all laws that subjugate women, and abortion laws in particular. I'm wondering, why is that?

And I'm simply asking for a discussion on it, not putting forth my own thoughts as truth. Those who spend more time with southern white racists will be more able to clarify than I, since I have little contact with them myself.

[Muzzle Tough]

18. Answers

"I wonder how many poor white women are supporting a truck load of babies because they have no access to birth control or abortions."

Oh my God! There are sooooooooo many different kinds of birth control that are available out there. Just because some people are too lazy to use it doesn't mean that it isn't available. And abortion is legal everywhere in the U.S.

"Surely you're not denying that the core group who promotes all of these movements (anti-choice, anti-abortion, anti-health education, anti-contraception, anti-welfare) is overwhelmingly the white racist Christian segment of the US population?"

I don't think that most white people are racist. And I don't think that most Christian people are racist.

In fact, the Christians that I know are more interested in brainwashing people (of all races) with their religious views than they are in anything else. They don't care if you are or white or black or yellow or brown. All they care about is getting more people to join their church.

[Cronus Protagonist]

21. Please let me clarify

The availability of birth control is limited in areas where there is limited access to information about where to get it. Additionally, while abortion may be legal in the US, it is not available everywhere, nor are the resources made available for pregnant women to locate a place where they can have one.

Additionally, this thread is about the people who support and promote anti-abortion, anti-womens rights and anti-welfare, who would DENY the right to an abortion, sex education, family planning, etc., who appear, as a group, to have a core of white racist Christians.

Sure, some, a very very small percentage of the women who have unwanted pregnancies have them because, to use your own words, they're "too lazy", that canard hardly applies to the majority.

I never said that most white people are racists, although I do know some black and brown folk who will tell you that they are. I also did not say that most Christians are racists.

What I said was that the core group of people who keep the anti-abortion racket alive are overwhelmingly white, southerm racists who claim to be Christians and use their religion as a crutch for their oppressive agenda. Surely you're not denying that?

I wanted to look into the possibilty or likelihood that the hidden agenda is racial purity for these people, as it is in their other oppressive agendas such as being anti-civil rights, anti-affirmative action, anti-reparations for indigineous folk, etc.

As for the brainwashing, I agree with you in that this is also my own experience, however, I also noticed that the Christian evangelicals that I've encountered are overwhelmingly white and they talk to me more often than they talk to my black and hispanic friends. It's not a surprise or an accident that their churches look overwhelmingly homogenous.

[Muzzle Tough]

24. Responses

"The availability of birth control is limited in areas where there is limited access to information about where to get it. Additionally, while abortion may be legal in the US, it is not available everywhere, nor are the resources made available for pregnant women to locate a place where they can have one."

How can information be "limited?" You can learn about anything on the internet. 99.9% of what I know about birth control I learned on my own from reading. No one can stop me from doing this.

Finding out where to get an abortion is as simple as calling Planned Parenthood and asking. That's why they are there. They are there to help people who need to be helped. No, you can't just walk across the street to get an abortion. You may have to drive or ride the bus. But no one is stopping you from doing this.

"Sure, some, a very very small percentage of the women who have unwanted pregnancies have them because, to use your own words, they're "too lazy", that canard hardly applies to the majority."

Well, I would also say that the majority of abortions that happen, happen because the MEN are too lazy to wear a condom.

"What I said was that the core group of people who keep the anti-abortion racket alive are overwhelmingly white, southerm racists who claim to be Christians and use their religion as a crutch for their oppressive agenda. Surely you're not denying that?"

I think the anti-abortion movement contains people from all geographic areas, and of all races, and of all religions. Many northeastern Orthodox Jews are opposed to abortion, for example.

"I wanted to look into the possibilty or likelihood that the hidden agenda is racial purity for these people, as it is in their other oppressive agendas such as being anti-civil rights, anti-affirmative action, anti-reparations for indigineous folk, etc."

Being against abortions for black people is contrary to trying to make the black race become extinct. Being anti-abortion is not motivated by racism.

[Cronus Protagonist]

29. Do you agree with the anti-aborton movement?

I will assume you do since you defend the proponents so often.

Not everyone has a computer or access to one, and many, if not most, people who need an abortion or access to family planning and contraceptives are not able to obtain the information due to their age, development, family circumstances, poverty, lack of general education, etc. I could go on and on, but you know all this since you've obviosly looked into this in the past. It is quite interesting that you minimize the impact of anti-abortion proponents and label groups of people "lazy" with nary a thought that you might be exposing yourself as a serial stereotyper.

Sure the anti-abortion group has disparate members. I'm talking about the core members, the ones you see on TV, the falwells, the robertsons, the de Lays, the Friths, the white, southern racist bigots all.

Pointing to the few that are not white, southern racists, only proved the rule.

No one is against abortions for black people - they're against abortions period. Show me one person who advocates this and I'll drink a gallon of bleach. That point is just another red herring, and your posts are getting more odoriferous as the night wears on.

[Wonk]

30. re: against abortions period vs against abortions of different skin color

I just thought you might like to see this if you haven't already. It's kinda relevant :think:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2805122

(snip)

"I am selectively opposed to abortion. I don’t care if Blacks and Jews have abortions. It is white babies that are our primary concern.” - J.D. Alder

http://www.spunk.org/library/pubs/lr/sp001714/bacorr.html

[Cronus Protagonist]

31. I think you just proved that there is a racist underpinning for some

That pretty much seals the deal right there. I had not seen the other thread. It seems much better than this one. I think I'll read more and post there. Thanks! (onUpdate: or I would have if it weren't archived)

:)

[Dorian Gray]

34. Racism?

I don't know about that. The people who I know in my life who have a pro-life stance do so for a reason. I was adopted after I was born in 1971. Whether I would exist if I were born a few years later remains to be seen, and it's a question that often weirds me out if I reflect upon it. My natural mother was 17 when she gave birth to me, so if abortion were more readily available, I may not exist.

I am personally pro-life, though I don't want to change the existing abortion laws. I know that I would personally never have an abortion, and if my children came to me in their mid-to-late teens pregnant, I would encourage them not to, as well. But, I realize that those are the only lives that I have any say in.

I've had friends who have gone the abortion route, and I've stood by them in their hour of need. I've held their hands and loved them unconditionally. I'm somewhat religious, so I've also prayed for them and for their emotional healing.

I know quite a few people who are pro-life, and I don't know one personally who is so because they want the white race to survive. They just think of abortion as the end of a life, and they think that all life deserves the chance to live.

[Muzzle Tough]

32. No.

I like to leave people alone. I don't encourage, or discourage, people to have abortions.

I am a civil libertarian. I oppose any laws that would outlaw abortion. And I oppose the U.S. government going all over the world and funding abortion for dark skinned people in poor countries. I want the government to have a complete hands off policy on abortion. I favor seperation of state and abortion.

You said:

"No one is against abortions for black people - they're against abortions period. Show me one person who advocates this and I'll drink a gallon of bleach."

Plenty of people are against abortions for black people. Like I said, you can find anything on google. Here are a few examples:


http://tennesseerighttolife.org/news_center/archives/10121999-01.htm

http://www.bondinfo.org/media/articles/archive/abortion.htm

http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/3/222004c.asp

[Cronus Protagonist]

33. I should have clarified my statement better

I was responding to your claim about people who would advocate abortions for black people ONLY as a means to diminish the black race's numbers in America. If someone holds such a view, it is not overt, although I don't doubt some hold such views in private.

None of your links indicate the case in point, of course. Who would want to be publicy expressing a wish for active racial genocide, other than a crackpot nazi? Your links link to people who claim it is being done, but none that WANT it to happen.

However, there's still time for you to create a page just to get me to drink a gallon of bleach.... :(

[China_cat]

42. You can't learn anything on the internet

when you're too poor to afford a computer and too busy trying to keep a roof over your head and food in your family's stomach to even have the leisure of getting to a library that has access (but would probably have anything to do with sex education blocked anyway).

Haven't you heard? The ONLY position acceptable in today's climate is abstinence for preventing unwanted pregnancy. We know just how well that works, don't we?

[RPM]

38. Too Lazy To Use It???? WHAT THE FUCK???

Some people cant AFFORD it.... The pill is not cheap... And even if you are lucky enough to have health care, it's often not covered (OF COURSE - you can get fertilization treatment under most plans.... hmmm - they'll get you pregnant, but won't let you not get pregnant)

And yes - abortion is also so easily accesible - especially in rural areas.

Dude - wake the fuck up and smell the coffee.....

Of course, poor/lazy shouldnt be having sex, right? Poor should be sterilized, right?

[Muzzle Tough]

41. Responses.

"Some people cant AFFORD it.... The pill is not cheap..."

The monthly cost of the pill is much less than the monthly cost of cable TV. And the cost of a condom is well under a dollar.

"And even if you are lucky enough to have health care, it's often not covered"

The birth control pill is a form of recreation, not health care. I say this, because being fertile is not a medical illness.

"(OF COURSE - you can get fertilization treatment under most plans.... hmmm - they'll get you pregnant, but won't let you not get pregnant)"

This is because being infertile is a medical illness.

"And yes - abortion is also so easily accesible - especially in rural areas."

It's just a bus ride or two away. It might take a day to get there, get the abortion, and get back, but that's about it. It can be done.

"Of course, poor/lazy shouldnt be having sex, right? Poor should be sterilized, right?"

It's not my position to be telling another person whether or not they should have sex or get sterilized. That is a personal decision that each person must make for himself/herself.

I do know that the abortion rate is much, much, much lower in Western Europe, because the people there are much more responsible when it comes to using birth control.

[Cronus Protagonist]

16. Check this out then - whites losing ground to "others" in the US

(Edited to correct wrong numbers and therefore wrong claims)

From the CDC as well.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr52/nvsr52_10t12.pdf

Notice that, in 2002, the white birth rate over the US is 2,298,156 while the Hispanic birth rate is 876,642 and the black birth rate was at a rate of 578,335, for a total of more than 1.4 million non-white births. In the same year, there were only 843,179 more white births than non-white.

The birth rate is increasing among non-whites, and the number of inter-reacial marriages is also increasing annually. These factors promise that there will be more non-white people than white in the US in the future, and that the US will, ultimately be a nation of multi-racial people.

...if the white people don't fuck more and produce more babies, that is - or is that too presumptious of me?

Isn't this also the underpinning of the Mormon's insistence on no birth prevention for their women too? To make more Mormons? Same for Catholics, right? And why would it not be the same for southern racists?

It just seems so likely that I thought it was worth discussion.

[Muzzle Tough]

22. Please look at your own source again.

You said:

"the non-white birth rate is 3,119,944,"

You are mistaken.

According to your own source, that number is the total number of non-Hispanic births. And of those, 2,298,156 were white.

Since the total number of births of all races, according to your source, was 4,021,726, this means that more than half of all babies born were white.

Furthermore, at least some of the Hispanic births are actually white, even though they aren't listed as such. The truth is that "hispanic" isn't even a race. People who are "hispanic" can be any race, or any mix or combination of races. So this increases the percentage of babies who are white even higher.

Again, there is no racist motivation for the anti-abortion point of view.

[Cronus Protagonist]

23. I corrected it

And if you don't think the white race is losing ground to "other" races, a simple google will prove it. Every racist knows it too - it's what motivates them to keep fighting and putting on these stupid white costumes.

Here's a few samples:

http://www.ers.usda.gov/Briefing/RaceAndEthnic/

"Since 1980, the nonmetro Hispanic population in the United States has doubled and is now the most rapidly growing demographic group in rural and small-town America."


http://216.239.63.104/search?q=cache:pEv7qBGaioMJ:speakout.com/activism/opinions/5082-1.html+race+changes+in+american+population&hl=en

"In 1990, nearly 10 million Americans already considered their racial identity as neither white nor black nor brown nor yellow but as "other." The number of interracial children has quadrupled since 1970, reaching the 2-million mark. Given that the number of intermarriages is six times higher than it was in 1960, the number of interracial Americans is sure to rise sharply in the future. Indeed, sociologists predict that America will look more and more like Hawaii's blended racial mix within a generation."


http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HSP/is_1_3/ai_66678542

"Indeed, one of the distinguishing characteristics of black America is its rich mixture, ranging from European white to African Black. If one developed a racially mixed category, it would without a doubt be the largest.

Payne points out that demographic change will not only alter the nature of race relations but race itself, basing this on current projections that the U.S. will be mostly non-white in the not too distant future. This is happening not only because of differences in fertility rates among white and nonwhite groups here, but also because increasing numbers of racial and ethnic intermarriages are taking place that produce multiracial and multiethnic children.

It is also interesting that whites rarely talk about people in their family tree being of African descent, although we know that there has been a lot of racial mixing in America."

[Muzzle Tough]

28. OK.

Of course the races are mixing and blending. That's to be expected. It always happens when different groups share the same geography. It's happened all throughout human history. It's good for the gene pool, because having parents of two different races reduces your chance of having a recessive genetic disease. Evolution favors multiracial babies.

The fact that some racial groups have higher birth rates than others is largely because of income. The richer you are, the fewer kids you will have. This is a demographic trend that exists all over the world. It may take another generation or two for some groups in the U.S. to catch up to everyone else in the U.S., but in the long run, all birthrates are falling.

If racists really wanted to make black people in the U.S. go extinct, they would open up abortion clinics in black neighborhoods. The truth is that most abortion clinics are located in black neighborhoods. But it's liberals, not conservatives, who have done that. And it's liberals, not conservatives, who keep trying to push birth control and abortion on the dark skinned people in other countries. So if anyone is giving themselves the appearance of being racist on these issues, it's liberals.

I am personally a civil libertarian who is 100% pro-choice on sex, birth control, and abortion. And for the life of me, I do not understand why so many liberals are obsessed with trying to solve every problem that minorities face by giving them more abortions and birth control.

Western Europe's population density is about 5 times higher than Africa's, but yet it is Africa, not Western Europe, that is said to be "overpopulated." Why is this? And why do some people think that the solution to African famine is birth control, instead of modern agriculture?

Sorry, but as a civil libertarian who hates the idea of budding into other people's lives, I am actualy quite disturbed that so many rich white liberals are so obsessed with opening up so many abortion clinincs in black neighborhoods in the U.S., and with putting such a strong emphasis on abortion and birth control as the way to help dark skinned people in the third world, instead of teaching them how to adopt the legal, economic, and political institutions that they really need to become better off.

I am genuinely pro-choice on abortion, because I stay the heck out of other people's lives. I don't try to persuade other people to have abortion, just as I don't try to prvent them from doing it. I prefer to bud out of people's lives.

A picture of 10,000 white people sitting in a field is called "A Grateful Dead Concert," but a picture of 10,000 black people sitting in a field is called "Overpopulation." Why is that?

A picture of a big crowd of mostly white people in Manhattan is called "A busy, bustling city." But a picture of a big crowd of dark skinned people in India is called "Overpopulation." Why is that?

Why are rich, white people in the U.S. and Western Europe so obsessed with trying to get poor, dark skinned people in other countries to have more abortions and use more birth control, instead of teaching them about the legal, economic, political, and agricultural things that they can do to improve their lives?

[Ruffhowse]

8. The real secret agenda is to make sure that there will always be enough

people to appear on Jerry Springer and be in his audience. We wouldn't want the "cracker" gap to get any bigger.

[Maccagirl]

11. They feel threatened

by anyone, or anything, they can't control.

[WildClarySage]

12. It's less about "racism" per se

than about all "ism's". That is, keeping all subgroups under the control of a dominant group which flourishes under the current power structure. Almost all conservative issue positions are based on maintaining (or increasing) a dominant power paradigm. They're so afraid someone else is gonna get at their precious little slice of pie.

[gumby]

14. Supremacy seems to be the rule of the day.

Supremacy encompasses racism, sexism, homophobia, religious bigotry, etc. and is built on a world-view that demands "lessers."

The Supremacy groups have merged into a neat fascist package. The neo-cons think they are Superior Beings who should rule the world. The Religious Right think they are Superior Beings who should rule the world's religion. The Corporate Communists think they are entitled to own the world's resources.

Making over half the population subservient to the minority is a benefit to all the above Supremacy Groups. It's a symbiotic relationship where the politicization of abortion makes them all more Superior.

[Cronus Protagonist]

19. That's a good point, gumby (eom)

[REP]

35. Control

There is a subgroup of the antiabortnoid mindset that is against abortion for whites only, but it is safe to say that in general, the pro-lie anti-abortnoid movement is about controlling women of all races and colors. It is fundamentally sexist, not racist.

When you look at who is getting abortions, it is mostly poorer women. Non-white people in the US are, in general, poorer than white people. Racism may help explain the poverty rate (and lack of health services, etc), but not individual women choosing on their own to terminate unwanted pregnancies.

[Charlls]

36. they just follow what their Supreme Leader

tells them its good

[Lefty48197]

37. The Republicans want to punish young women for having sex outside of

marriage. It's that simple. They thing sex is bad, if the couple isn't married. Birth control and abortion allow women to remain unpregnant, even after having sex. How are they going to know who to persecute for committing the big "A", if they can't see a swollen belly?

[yellowdogintexas]

39. control of the women, of course

[Padraig18]

43. Not entirely logical.

If they wanted more white people, they would ENCOURAGE easier access to abortion and birth-control, to hold down non-white birth rates.

[neebob]

44. They just want God to keep on blessing America

It's that simple. They believe God wants women to be subservient (though they'll argue it's not subservience until you're blue in the face) and have as many babies as possible and only be attracted to men, and for men to only be attracted to women and cleave to their families and go to work and support them. They just sort of like forget that everyone doesn't share their vision and don't see how it's unrealistic and oppressive.