What should be done about the Pledge of Allegiance (POA)?

[ZombieNixon]

I personally don't have problem no matter what the status of "Under God" is. If we got rid of it altogether, I'd be fine with that too. It's just another wedge issue the RW likes to exploit.

[Solon]

1. I say restore the original pledge...

don't force people to participate.

[Nikepallas]

4. Agree! The Under God was only added in the 1950's I believe.

I've seen old movies that pove it was never in.

[ZombieNixon]

5. It was added by Eisenhower

to distinguish us from the "Godless Communists."

[Solon]

6. You know, its funny...

just listening to it, you can notice that the 'under God' part was inserted, it seems to break the rhythm so to speak.

[ZombieNixon]

7. I was actually just thinking about that

just before I read your post. Weird how these things work.

[classof56]

8. Ah, yes, I remember it well!

All through my growing-up years (40s and early 50s) we said the pledge each morning in school, and "under God" wasn't added until 1954, as I understand, when I was in high school. Something about the McCarthy era, I do believe. I've known of those who refuse to say "with liberty and justice for all," 'cause that so isn't true in many cases. Jehovah's Witnesses (and other groups, I'm sure) won't recite the pledge, period. I guess my vote would be that people/kids should recite it or not, any part of it or not, depending on where they're coming from. Of course, no one should be FORCED to say anything they don't want to in any situation/setting. Kinda what freedom's all about, IMHO.

[TahitiNut]

16. I remember first learning to say it with a straight arm salute.

During my parents' generation, the Pledge was recited (when it was) with a straight arm salute a la Adolph. It was finally changed to hand-over-heart in the late 40's. When I was a wee grasshopper, however, it was still said some places with the staright arm.

[classof56]

22. Glad I have no memory of that!

Just checked with my husband, who says he recalls the straight-arm salute while saying the pledge back in the 40s. Scary, considering what was going on in Adolph's Europe and the horrible things we were hearing when I was just a l'il one during and following WWII. I am still haunted by those stories and images. And I get a cold chill in the region of my heart and soul as I observe what's happening in our country now.

[unblock]

2. come up with something better

betweeen the "under god" part and the whole idea of swearing to a FLAG, fer cryin' out loud, surely we can come up with some better display of patriotism.

[Sympleesmshn]

3. keep it as it is

I feel that it should be the same but if you don't want to say then don't. It doesn't hurt me. But if you are not going to say then be respectful of those who do, this country, and the flag itself.

[SnoopDog]

9. Had this on my mind one night...

I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, for the Democracy for which it stands, one nation of its people, with liberty and justice for all.

[ZombieNixon]

10. I like it. Go with it.

If it ever got anywhere the "we live in a republic, not a democracy" people would whine about the wording.

[immoderate]

12. I like it.

I never felt right about allegience to a piece of cloth. The constitution has the ideas that we support.

I'd leave out the "liberty and justice for all." It's just not true.

--IMM

[Mojambo]

11. Eliminate it

I don't like the idea of pledging allegiance to a nation state.

I certainly don't want to forbid people to say it. I'll never do it though.

[TahitiNut]

13. A coerced 'oath' is the habit of totalitarian states.

How can any ethical person require children, who can't even sign a contract, to recite an oath? This is nothing but brainwashing -- the kind of indoctrination that was typical in Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy and Stalinist USSR. No free country on earth requires such psychopatriotic nonsense.

[Starlight]

14. The whole thing gives me the creeps. n/t

[Career Prole]

15. I guess it doesn't matter to me anyway.

I hereby withdraw my pledge.
The preznit broke his oath of office, so I believe I may freely withdraw my pledge of allegiance.

[imenja]

17. Forget about it. Concentrate on something that matters

These are window dressing issues that only makes people hate the left. Let's work on something that impacts people's lives: voting reform, ending corporate welfare, health care, etc...

[PurityOfEssence]

18. If acknowledgement of god isn't forced every few seconds, it's persecution

Any fundy'll tell ya that.

Remove it, and don't require reciting it.

[manic expression]

19. I don't stand for the pledge...

but not just because of "Under God". I almost got punished for it, but I repealed the matter to the Principal and he ruled in my favor(I got to argue with both Vice Principals and prove them wrong before that, so that was fun). I do it in protest of our present actions, and many actions of the past.

[kohodog]

20. I pledge allegiance to George Bush and his Republican Warlords...

and to the Religious Right for which he stands, one nation underpants, for Richard Stands.

Time to edit it.

[H2O Man]

21. The fellow who brought the suit

was a cousin of an old supervisor from work. I thought the case needed to be heard and decided in the Supreme Court. To rule that a father doesn't have "standing" to bring the case seemed cheap, not to mention an insult to fathers. I am religious, and I think that the PoA needs to go back to its original form.

[ZombieNixon]

23. The ruling was a cop-out.

If they hadn't found that loophole, they would have actually had to deal with the issue.

[H2O Man]

26. Right. The fact

that they opted for that loophole indicates they know what the constitution says. The thought of making a ruling that would be so unpopular with the right-wing republicans kept them from hearing the case.

[LifeDuringWartime]

24. get rid of it!

n/t

[scarletwoman]

25. Publicize the fact that the Pledge was written by a SOCIALIST.

Maybe that will dampen the right wing ardor for it. The author originally wanted to include the word equality -- "liberty, equality and justice for all" -- but realized it would be too controversial.

Here's a little history:
http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).

Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex.

The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The Youth's Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest of its day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in 1891 as his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his baptist church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member of his congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later founded the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located in downtown Boston.

<snip>

His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. { * 'to' added in October, 1892. }

<snip>

In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.

Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

I totally abhor forced recitation of the Pledge -- it smacks of "loyalty oath" too much for my taste.

But rather than fight it on civil liberty grounds, I'd love to see right wing heads implode over the fact that it was written by a (*gasp*) SOCIALIST. What could be more fun than THAT? :evilgrin:

sw

[sonicx]

27. get rid of it. nt

[SmokingJacket]

28. Get rid of it.

Promising to be faithful to a flag is a BIZARRE idea.

Even promising to be faithful to the nation for which it stands, in a repetitive daily chant, strikes me as contrary to the spirit of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

How about spending a few minutes a day actually reading those documents and studying the history behind them, and making up our own minds whether we want to be faithful to this country or not.

[Wapsie B]

29. Remove "Under God"

and go back to the original pledge.

[sweetheart]

30. Our father, who's art is in heaven

Hollow is thy name
Thy kingdom comes and will be done
on earth like in heaven
Give us this day some bread
and give us some tresspasses
lead us in to temptation and
deliver those in evil
for thine is the kingdom
and the power and the glory
until brittany spears shows her clitorus piercing.

;-)

Oh!!! pledge of allegiance to earthly kingdoms!

I pledge my allegience to
the flag of the united states of amercia
and to the republic for witches stand
one nation, invisible, with liberty
and justice for those who can pay for it.

Its all bullshit.

Perhaps we could recite an ee cummings poem instead.

.. rendering death and forever with every breathing....

[scarletwoman]

31. I like it! I was thinking Yeats, myself...

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all convictions, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

sw

[sweetheart]

34. The daily poem

How lovely it would be to
meet so many poets in a moment
of purient thoughtfulness.
Had schools spent all those years
inspring me with TS eliot, Yeats, Keats and
so many others, i surely would have learned more.

Than repeating robotic words that children never use like: indivisible.

Ee cummings corrected quote:

somewhere i have never travelled,gladly beyond
any experience,your eyes have their silence:
in your most frail gesture are things which enclose me,
or which i cannot touch because they are too near

your slightest look easily will unclose me
though i have closed myself as fingers,
you open always petal by petal myself as Spring opens
(touching skilfully,mysteriously) her first rose

or if your wish be to close me,i and
my life will shut very beautifully, suddenly,
as when the heart of this flower imagines
the snow carefully everywhere descending;

nothing which we are to perceive in this world equals
the power of your intense fragility: whose texture
compels me with the color of its countries,
rendering death and forever with each breathing

(i do not know what it is about you that closes
and opens; only something in me understands
the voice of your eyes is deeper than all roses)
nobody,not even the rain, has such small hands

[donco6]

32. I have to say it at board meetings

and I don't like it. I'm rather embarrassed of my flag right now.

[More Than A Feeling]

33. Somehow, having children take the Lord's name in vain every morning

doesn't seem like it honors God very much. I have no problem with it being done. I just don't understand why it is so important to evangelicals and others. Neither Christianity nor any other religion needs the backing of any state to flourish, and in fact, works so much better when the state is neutral, or, yes, even hostile. The Bible even says "Rejoice when you are persecuted for my name's sake" or words to that effect.

I don't understand some of my fellow Christians at all.

[Jack_DeLeon]

35. Keep as is...

Also you can never mandate that people say anything.

Pledges, oaths whatever, people have the right to remain silent.

[freelight]

36. It scares me...

...when my 5-year-old cousin who can't even read yet comes home from school and proudly recites the pledge of allegiance like a circuis monkey that's just learned a new trick. When I ask her if she knows what it means, she looks at me like I'm crazy and, of course, says no. (What kind of silly question is that, after all? They're just supposed to say it.)
Nobody should be forced to recite an oath they don't fully understand and/or agree with, least of all impressionalbe children.
The semantics of it (pledging allegiance to the flag rather than the nation, supporting the Republic but not mentioning Democracy, that whole "under God" thing) is a secondary issue.
Although I do agree that this sort of thing just makes the Left look out-of-touch to casual observers. If this was among our biggest problems, we'd be living in a much better state of affairs. It is, after all, possible to "undo" much of the damage done to school children.