Witchita: "Don't take the Christ out of our Christmas"

[kslib]

Calling himself "not a politically correct person," Wichita Mayor Carlos Mayans said Tuesday that next year's Winterfest celebration will include the lighting of a Christmas tree.

"God is God, and a Christmas tree is a Christmas tree," he said.

Organizers had called it a "community tree," which sparked a debate over the role of government in religious holiday celebrations
<snip>

Mayans said he received from 50 to 60 e-mails criticizing him and the city for calling it a community tree. Some e-mails called him an atheist, he said.

"I really do think people are sick and tired of trying to make a politically correct Christmas," said the Rev. Terry Fox, a Christian conservative leader who called Johnson objecting to the tree's name.

Peter Grant, who is Jewish and a member of Congregation Emanu-El in Wichita, said the city should avoid religious names when it is sponsoring communitywide events.

"I'm not against Christmas," he said, "but I just want them to respect everybody, not just certain groups."

http://www.kansas.com/mld/eagle/10419875.htm

[Bouncy Ball]

1. Wait, both the organizers of the community tree AND the people

criticizing calling it a community tree are accused of being PC?

I wish people would STOP all this nonsense. Celebrate Christmas if you want to (I do, and I love it) but STOP INSISTING that EVERYONE celebrate it or that everyone celebrates it the same way you do!

[UdoKier]

9. I agree. But we shouldn't force those who want to celebrate it...

to call it something else.

(Please keep in mind here that I'm an atheist, and feel more strongly about church/state separation than just about anything...)

[Bouncy Ball]

13. I totally agree.

Everyone call it what you want, celebrate it how you want.

My problem is with the fundies trying to force everyone to celebrate things THEIR way.

[eaprez]

28. no one 'forces' you to call it something else.

[juliagoolia]

2. Baloney! hogwash? CRAP!

Thats what I think of stories that get BLOWN out of proportion by people like the reporter at www.kansas.com from Wichita Eagle

Abe Levy needs an email telling him to find some REAL NEWS to write about.

[e-mail].

[juliagoolia]

14. my letter to news reporter

This story is ridiculous. As a Christian who has been trying to ignore most news lately due to the horrors of the iraq war, I can not help but notice a HUGE number of reporters piggybacking one another to tell tiny stories about the theft of Christmas. GET A JOB! Maybe I should have said DO YOUR JOB! Find something that is honestly newsworthy to report about. The only "theft" and sanitation of Christmas is coming from the Media itself. Write news that really is news. A few people(a very few) do not speak for the majority of people who could care less what the town leaders call the damn tree is not news worthy of a town this size.

[KSAtheist]

58. Have you ever been to Wichita?

Besides the frequent police pursuits and the endemic city government corruption, there's not much newsworthy going on here. A bullshit story like this is a godsend; controversy--no matter how trivial--is always more interesting than Fannie Mae Sue's 100th birthday, or the latest kid to be cut in half while playing on the railroad tracks. Also, political correctness issues like this are always good for hemming & hawing amonsgt the plebians.

[PassingFair]

82. Bravo, Julia!

We unaffiliated seculars NEED you sane Christians to step up to the plate and bash the fundies! When we do it, we are demonized further. Thank you for being a reality based Christian, and speaking out!

[Dr.Phool]

3. I picked up a good line

I think it was on DU.

I don't celebrate X-mas. When people ask, I say No, I didn't do any shopping, I also don't celebrate Ramadan or Chanukah. I'm not a Xtian, so why do I have to celebrate anything?

[UdoKier]

4. Well, it it *IS* stupid to call it a "community tree".

It's a Christmas tree.

Are we going to start calling the menorahs in our city parks "Community Candelabras"?

I hate to agree with an apparent wingnut, but the name is stupid.


BUT - this is also an unbelievably trivial issue being blown out of proportion by the right for political reasons.

Hey, PC police, how about not giving them any more ammo for crap like this, and not coming up with dumb PC names for things anymore? Huh?

[kslib]

16. Yep.

I agree, it's a Christmas Tree, it'll always be a Christmas Tree. If they really want to include other religions in this holiday season, perhaps they should host celebrations that reflect those traditions, instead of just putting a fake name on a Christian one; it doesn't include everyone, it just pisses them off.

god, I love my state.


:crazy:

[stopbush]

33. Always? Was it called a Xmas tree when the Xtians stole the

image from the pagans? Just wondering.

They can do whatever they want...until they spend public tax $ to do it. Then, they need to respect the establishment clause in our Constitution which overrides any variance ther local yokels may want to grant to the myth worshippers.

[UdoKier]

39. Cutesy references to ancient history...

don't change the fact that in the mainstream parlance, the decorated trees in question have been called "Christmas trees" and have been associated with the Christian holiday of Christmas.

All the posts bringing up this irrelevant bit of trivia make as much sense as trying to denounce Jesus' teachings because they were so heavily derivative of the Buddha's.

And aren't communities allowed to put up holiday displays so long as they represent the holidays observed by all the people in the community?

I'm a pretty strict church-state separatist, but I see no problem with these holiday displays so long as everyone who wants to be included, IS included. And nobody should have to use silly PC names to participate.

[stopbush]

40. One man's "cutesy reference" is another man's "Constitutional

guarantee."

Americans didn't get with that homegrown tradition until the mid-1800's. From the History Channel:

"Most 19th-century Americans found Christmas trees an oddity. The first record of one being on display was in the 1830s by the German settlers of Pennsylvania, although trees had been a tradition in many German homes much earlier. The Pennsylvania German settlements had community trees as early as 1747. But, as late as the 1840s Christmas trees were seen as pagan symbols and not accepted by most Americans."

Yikes! The PA German settlements had "community trees!!"

More fun here: http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/holidays/christmas/trees.html

Circle completed in Wichita with the community tree.

[UdoKier]

42. That's all fine and dandy but still beside the point.

It doesn't matter if they are religious symbols or not.

Religious symbols can be displayed on public property as long as it's not to the exclusion of other religions.

[donheld]

47. So why can't we have a Community tree in the middle of town

We could hang little menorahs, crosses, cresents plus symbols of any other faith someone wants to put on it? If you don't want to call it a "community tree" call it an "All Faiths Tree". We need to find some way of recognizing people of all faiths. A way that does not exclude any faith. I'm sure if we try hard enough we can find something to put on it to make atheists happy.

[UdoKier]

49. Why not have a Xmas tree next to a big menorah, next to a ...

...Blair Witch doll. I don't give a crap what they display as long as everybody can put up their thingy. And I AM an atheist.

I'm much more concerned about schools that are teaching kids religion in public schools than some nativities or Christmas Trees.

[donheld]

52. I totally agree with that

If we're not careful the bible will become the main text book in schools.

[BiggJawn]

88. We quit calling it a "Christmas Tree" when...

In the lobby of the city-county building where I worked, they used to put up a Christmas tree. Then one year, the local Lubabvitchers wanted a Menora displayed. then the NEXT year, a local Wiccan demanded space for her Yule display. The Yule display was vandalized.

The next year, they called it a "Tree of Lights" and dis-allowed any other displays, claiming the tree was now "non-sectarian".

Happy Holidays! Be it Christmas, Yule, Chanukah, Saturnalia, Winter Solsitce, or whatever.....

[yardwork]

107. The government should not be celebrating religious holidays

That's the problem here. If Christians want to celebrate Christmas and put up Christmas trees in their homes, churches, and private offices, that is fine. The Constitution guarantees their right to celebrate Christmas.

But the town or county government has no business putting up a Christmas tree (no matter what they call it) anymore than they have the right to put up a menorah. If they put up one religious symbol they have to put up all religious symbols, and that gets to be impossible pretty quick.

Government celebrations should be called community celebrations. Even having a "holiday" parade (where Santa is featured) or putting up a "community tree" that is obviously a Christmas tree is off-limits imo.

[kslib]

44. I suppose I should clarify

I meant that the most widely used meaning of the words "Christmas Tree" (in the language of the time we live in, in the United States)is an evergreen tree (plastic or real) commonly used to decorate the homes of Christians celebrating the birth of their savior, known as Jesus Christ (although, really it's just a place to put presents on the day celebrating Santa--in the United States, in other countries he is known by different names, and I'm pretty sure that he probably originated from some other ritual). These Christians decorate the tree with symbols of their holiday and sometimes of their secular hobbies and interests, called ornaments. Sometimes, they are decorated with lights. While stolen from another, older, form of worship (or religion), it remains today one of the most recognizable symbols of this holiday (Christmas). The tree does not represent the two other commonly recognized holidays of the season, Chaunaka and Kwanza, and I am unsure if it represents other holidays that occur during this season. Trying to call it something that it is not is a blatant attempt to appear PC when it is apparant that the town is celebrating Christmas, not any other holiday. Other celebrations for these holidays, or perhaps other symbols incorporated into Winter Fest that more closely represented these holidays would, perhaps, have been a more appropriate way to embrace the "diversity of religions" in Wichita (as was, apparantly, the goal)

That being said, I posted this as a fluff piece, an example of the type of stories that make front page news during this time of war, stolen elections, etc. I don't really care what they call the stupid tree.

[bobbieinok]

101. 'O Tannenbaum' - correctly translate the German - 'O FIRtree'

[eaprez]

29. there is no such thing as "PC".....what's PC used to be...

...referred to as being sensitive to other people.

[UdoKier]

37. It is PC because it's nonsense.

Calling a Christmas tree a christmas tree is not insensitive.

Nor is calling a menorah a menorah.

[eaprez]

43. no one said you couldn't call your christmas tree a

christmas tree.

[really annoyed]

61. Including the community is nonsense?

But I suppose a Christmas tree represents the whole community, eh?

My city has a Christmas tree and a nativity scene.

A menorah is a historical symbol - not religious.

It is not "PC" to call it a community tree. They can call it whatever they want, until people like you have to raise nonsense about it because you don't give a damn about others.

[MadHound]

45. Hey, I've got a better idea, call the tree by its original, pagan name

Make it a Yule tree. That's what it is, after all. What Christians call a "Christmas tree" is originally the Yule tree, used by pagans throughout Europe to celebrate Winter Solstice. So let's call it what it REALLY is, since we don't want to be PC and all.

[UdoKier]

50. You could do that.

And the christians should still be able to have their "Christmas Tree" too.

[IrateCitizen]

46. After reading the responses to this suggestion of yours, UdoKier...

... I stop wondering why we lose elections.

It's a fucking CHRISTMAS TREE for Christ's sake. I worked on my grandparents' Christmas tree farm while growing up. There was NO religious connotation with the name, that's simply what it was -- a CHRISTMAS TREE, because you put one up for CHRISTMAS!

All this hand-wringing over calling it a Christmas tree makes me want to put my head through a wall.

[MadHound]

48. Yeah, damn those Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Pagans, and other Heathens

For being uppity and speaking out against having Christianity shoved down their throat where ever they turn! Damn, they should either just convert, or at least shut up and be quiet about it! Let us right proper Christians spread our religion throughout this secular(for now) land without interference or complaint!

Whatever:eyes:

[IrateCitizen]

81. How in the fuck is a Christmas tree shoving it down your throat???

Are you somehow denying that a town Christmas tree is a new creation, that it has any kind of religious significance outside of its name?

I'll tell you what -- go to the main street of any town in the USA, set up shop in front of the town Christmas tree, and tell passers-by that they need to STOP calling it a Christmas tree because it's persecuting the Pagans, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Shintos, Buddhists, and whatever other damned religion you can think of. See how much traction you get on THAT grand idea!

It's not a fucking religious symbol, it's a HOLIDAY symbol, and it just happens that Christmas is the holiday celebrated by the vast majority of people in this country. I belong to a UU fellowship in which a significant number of people in our congregation are atheist/agnostic, and we have a CHRISTMAS tree with absolutely ZERO complaints from anyone. It's a HOLIDAY symbol, like fireworks on the Fourth of July, not a RELIGIOUS symbol.

Whatever, indeed! :eyes:

[MadHound]

83. Yeah dang nabit, it IS just Christmas

And yeah, it IS just Easter. Yeah, it IS just a Christian symbol, being paid for by everyone in the community, whether they are Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Pagan, whatever, we all still get to pick up the tab for promoting this CHRISTIAN holiday.

Tell you what friend, can we have a government paid Muslim display during Ramadan? How about a state sponsored Satanic display?

And just because something has been around forever doesn't grant it legitimacy, if we used that logic slavery and Jim Crow laws would still be around.

If a church wants to pay for the tree to be put on it's own lawn, I have no problem. I do have a problem with paying for ANY religious symobl and providing space and/or facilities to house such a symbol. This is, despite the fundies ongoing onslaught, still a secular nation. That means that there is no state sponsorship of religion. Forcing the taxpayers to pay for and provide space for any religious symbol breeches that barrier of church and state, and is defacto allowing a particular religion to be the state sponsored religion. Don't like that, then put the damn tree on private property, paid for with private funds. Don't throw the burden on the taxpayers.

[IrateCitizen]

84. Like I said, take your message to the people then!

Set up your soapbox on Main Street of any town in the US, right in front of the town Christmas tree, and convince your fellow citizens why it is so wrong to have a Christmas tree paid for by the town and on display in public space.

Please also come back on this board and tell us all how successful your efforts were, too. I would predict that you wouldn't even find traction for something like this in Greenwich Village, let alone Wichita.

[MadHound]

92. So just let the slow erosion of the church/state barrier continue

First let taxpayers pay for a Christian display, then accept prayer in school, then the ten commandments in the court house, then shove gays back in the closet, then force abortions back into the alleys, then, then, then! How far are you willing to let this go friend! After all, once you've set precedence(the Christmas tree), you can't very well deny other state sponsored Christian acts now can you? Precedence is everything friend, and once you set it, it is mighty damn hard to reverse it.

As far as my setting up a soapbox, well, isn't that what our elected leaders are for? Isn't that why we have governing bodies? After all, this individual/small group speaking out model was tried during the civil rights movement, and while it was successful to a certain extent, it took the full weight of the federal government, complete with armed might in order to drive real changes home. This IS the function of government, so your suggestion is ludicrous at best.

Just because the majority of people our in favor of an issue that doesn't make it right or just. If we were simply going by the opinions of the majority, we would probably still have slavery in the South. Cheers.

[IrateCitizen]

93. Are you for grassroots movements or aren't you, MadHound?

You said: "As far as my setting up a soapbox, well, isn't that what our elected leaders are for? Isn't that why we have governing bodies? After all, this individual/small group speaking out model was tried during the civil rights movement, and while it was successful to a certain extent, it took the full weight of the federal government, complete with armed might in order to drive real changes home. This IS the function of government, so your suggestion is ludicrous at best."

Weren't you the same person who, just the other day was talking about the need for a movement outside of the two political parties that was all about the people vs. the powerful? That can only lead me to believe that you support grassroots movements only when it suits your argument, and fall back on scapegoating elected officials when it doesn't.

So, once again, if you want to push this change, then take your case to the people. Convince others that your point of view is correct. Convince them that there should be no Christmas trees on government property because it's an endorsement of religion. Get your town or community to pass a resolution to this effect. Otherwise, you're no different than the right winger who uses the government to enforce the placing of the Ten Commandments in a government building. Both of you are attempting to use government power to enforce the will of a small minority over a large majority, just from different starting perspectives. And in both cases, it's wrong.

[MadHound]

94. LOL friend, nice cherry picking

And no, what I'm doing is using the government to enforce the laws that are already on the book, the tenants already set down in the Constitution. You know, that pesky church state barrier thingy again, that the Supreme Court has consistently come down on the side of secularism. What, I'm supposed to do enforcement activities now? That's called vigilantism friend, which is specifically outlawed. It is why we have police and the National Guard for.

This issue has already been decided many times over friend, it is simply that it needs to be enforced. I hear you continously griping about the tyranny of the majority on these boards, but all the sudden when you are the "offended" majority, you change your tune? Damn, you must be getting dizzy from all that spinning.

Once again, this is an issue regarding the seperation of the church and the state. Either you're for it, or you're against it. You can't cherry pick issues that you favor here, disregard others there. Consistency is the key. I've seen you bitch about the hypocrisy of the freepers and their tendency to cherry pick, perhaps it is time for you to remove that log from your own eye friend.

[IrateCitizen]

95. I'm not at all the "offended majority" -- I just think it's all stupid

And colossally so. It's more about fighting the IMPORTANT battles (like, for instance, "intelligent design" in the classroom) that you have a good shot at winning, as opposed to wasting valuable energies on battles that really mean very little and that you have absolutely no chance of winning.

Vote Democratic -- we're the ones who took down your town Christmas tree. Yeah, there's a real winning campaign slogan. :eyes:

[MadHound]

96. And like I said before friend, it is all about precedence

Inject a little religion here, a little more there, get people singing the RW fundies favorite song "God Bless America" at sporting events, throw some ten commandments in the courthouses, and poof, before you know it, you're living in a theocracy.

Damn, sounds mighty similar to what's happening right now, eh?

[IrateCitizen]

100. Vote Democratic -- we took away your Christmas Tree!

Like I said, friend -- it's better to pick the more important battles you can win as opposed to the less important ones that you will lose.

[MadHound]

103. Well friend, if you've been following me as close as you say you have

You would realize that I don't give a flying fuck about the Democratic party. They are now officially part of the problem, you know, the two party/same corporate master system of government that is slowly stealing away our country and giving it to the corporations.

And one of the most important battles we're facing in this country is the erosion of the church/state barrier. Yeah, sure, its only a Christmas tree now. Next week we'll be putting up the ten commandments on the courthouse square. After all, its only the ten commandments, and besides, Christians are the majority in this country. But next month we'll start banning the teaching of evolution in this country, you know, it goes against the teaching of the Bible, and after all, Christianity is the majority religion in this country, and besides, its only evolution we're tossing out the door. Oh, and yeah, we're tossing sex ed too, you know, Bible, majority religion, yadda yadda.

And before you know it friend, we're well on our way to theocratic fascism. We're heading down that slippery slope now, which is why this fight for preserving the church/state barrier is so important.

Yeah, its only a Christmas tree, yet so much more. Think about it

[Silverhair]

77. Peggy Noonan says the same thing.

Here is the link: http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=110006032

Last three or four paragraphs.

BTW, I think that in this case, she is right. When you fight popular culture, you lose. And the PC attempts against Christmas make us look like the Grinch.

[kslib]

89. Thanks for the link

I think I actually learned something. I like the idea that freedom of religion means letting all people express their diverse religous faiths, instead of suppressing all expressions of faith in order to keep anyone from being offended. It brings to mind an image of a rich tapestry instead of a sterile, white cloth.
Bravo! from this agnostic! :bounce:

[Silverhair]

99. Great analogy!! Love it. May I steal it? NT

[kslib]

104. By all means!

[dogman]

106. Except for those who call it a Hannakuh Bush.

I really hate that name.

[bklyncowgirl]

68. Absolutely right.

This sort of stupid PC shit does more harm to the notion of a civil society that I believe in than just about anything I can think of. I'm in favor of letting any religious group put of their seasonal holiday symbol. Of course maybe the Christians would have to deal with the local Wiccans doing something for the Winter Solstice but hey, you want the freedom to express your religious beliefs, kool. Just don't step on anyone else's freedom to do the same.

[WoodrowFan]

75. Community Candelabras???

BOL, thanks for that image. Somehow Liberace comes to mind!

[Hand]

5. Actually, the Christmas tree is a stolen icon...

It goes 'way back to pre-Christian times in Scandinavia. I believe it was connected to various animist religions. In plain English, it's PAGAN! Ha!

Take a big one, Yer Honor!

:evilgrin:

[kslib]

17. Touche!

[Ravenseye]

38. Exactly What I Was Going To Say

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree

"Among early Germanic tribes the Yule tradition was celebrated by sacrificing male animals, and slaves, by suspending them on the branches of trees. In Scandinavia the Viking Kings sacrificed nine males of each species at the sacred groves, while poorer people hung apples and buns and other small sacrifices on branches. It is likely that the Christmas tree is a continuation of this tradition."

Now THATS a tree.

[Buns_of_Fire]

76. I don't think I'll ever look at Christmas "balls" the same way again...

In Scandinavia the Viking Kings sacrificed nine males of each species at the sacred groves...

Ooh... That's gotta hurt...

Merry Christmahanukwanzakah! :party:

[Silverhair]

79. Didn't you misspell that?

Shouldn't it be Merry "Christmashanukwanzakahsolsticewhatever"?

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

[Buns_of_Fire]

80. You're probably right

But, heck, it took me THIS long to learn to spell it THIS way! (Not to mention how long it's taken me to learn to pronounce it! :crazy: )

Merry Whatever! :toast:

[CornField]

6. Here's hoping all the area pagans show up for the celebration

The Yule Tree is our tradition and is specifically condemned by their own bible:

Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." (KJV).

[KSAtheist]

10. There are like fifteen pagans in Wichita.

The fundies would eat them alive.

[kslib]

21. Welcome!

Good to see a fellow Kansan!

:hi:

[buckettgirl]

34. There are more than that

I understand the sarcasm, but really there are many. I guarantee it. I personally know for a fact that Hays has a rather large population of Pagans - they just aren't unified.
Lets compare Hays's (sp?) population of about 20,000 to Wichita's population of 300,000... I would guarantee that there are many more Pagans in Wichita and the suburbs - the problem, again lies in the fact that they aren't unified in any way.
I think that is one issue with Pagans, because it is possible to practice solitary, in an actual coven, or just in informal groups - we aren't people who are necessarily easy to find or easy to put in a group. When practicing as individuals and small groups, it is easier for them to persecute us, and it makes it more necessary for us to hide what we believe...it is a sad phenomenon.

[PaganPreacher]

102. My pagan-sense is going off!

We may know some of the same people, buckettgirl....

Do you ever make it up to a certain Pagan hideaway outside of Leavenworth?



The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[buckettgirl]

108. unfortunately, no

I don't venture out of the Hays area very often. Of course, if you are familiar with the area, then you also know there isn't alot of group activity here... Sometimes we manage to make it over to Salina and go to Gaia's Garden...I love that place and Amy is so cool! I just wish we could make it over there more often to participate in the groups they have set up.

[PaganPreacher]

111. I know what you mean.

I live outside of Lawrence, which has a nice group of Pagans; I spend most of my time with the metro Kansas City and St. Joseph (MO) Pagans, though.

I go out to Camp Gaea throughout the year (lots of opportunity to get some sun all over!) The Festival of Tara is my favorite weekend event of the summer. If you get the chance, you should give it a try! It's a nice, small gathering, with music, old Highland/Celtic Games, and about a hundred of the best pagan folks I have ever known.

Heartland Pagan Festival is the big gathering on Memorial Day Weekend. I'll be out there, and I think I'll be giving some workshops next year.

If you want more information, send me a note at [e-mail].

Have a cool Yule!




The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[PaganPreacher]

97. Wow! I know half the Pagans in Wichita!

What are the odds?

The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the othe cheek.

[CarbonDate]

41. Yeah! Put the "Witch" back in "Wichita"! n/t

.

[dogman]

7. Who put Christ in the Winter Solstice?

What's wrong with pagans reclaiming their holidays and traditions? Can't we just get along?

[WoodrowFan]

74. I believe that's a myth

I think that's a popular myth. The date was chosen from early Jewish mysticism that taught that important related events would happen on the same day. Some early Jewish-Christians from that tradition believed that Christ would therefor have been conceived the same day of the year that he died. He was crucified in the Spring so if he was also conceived in the Spring he would have been born in late December. In fact, some early Gentile-Christians objected to Christmas celebrations because it came from this mystic tradition.

Of course the fact that Christmas occurred near a Pagan celebration probably did make it popular among the Roman population, many of whom were used to combining religious traditions anyway. And that association is the reason why some Protestants in the 16th Century and later associated Christmas with Paganism. (Some still do)

So Christmas wasn't "stolen" but two holidays that occurred at the same time became mixed together.

I recently learned this while teaching Adult Sunday school in my church. I can track down the references in you wish.

[CornField]

85. Sure. While you're at it...

look up Ostara too. (BTW, you'd call that Easter.)

[PaganPreacher]

98. Not a myth, my friend.

Beginning in the second century, the Romans celebrated the birth of Sol Invictus (the invincible sun) on the first day after winter solstice in which they could measure the lengthening days (by happy coincidence, 12/25.)

Prior to the beginning of Sol Invictus' worship, the Romans practiced Mithraic worship (brought to Rome by soldiers from the Persian campaigns). Mithras was a god-man whose feast day was celebrated on 12/25.

Prior to the year 354, the birth of Jesus was celebrated on January 6. By order of Pope Julius I, the Roman church moved celebration of "Christ's mass" to the natal day of two other Roman deities.

Happy Christmas, and a cool Yule!



The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[dogman]

105. Be serious.

What does a tree have to do with the birth of Jesus? This was one of many pagan customs that the early church adopted along with the holidays in order to co-opt the traditions to their purpose. This took place throughout the world. The missionaries did the same to every culture they encountered. The churches have engaged in rewriting history since the time of Jesus.

[KSAtheist]

8. It's WICHITA.

:nuke:

[Bridget Burke]

11. I was going to recommend they remove "Witch" from "Witchita"

Surely, there's some secret, occult meaning to the city's name.

[JHB]

12. "Tired of Politically Correct Christmas" really means...

..."Tired of having to put up with THEM" ("THEM" being their own private "Samaritans", in the sense of the parable, ironically).

They're really feeling emboldened this year. There was a LTTE in Newsday today with a similar message:

When did Christmas become a secular holiday? It is absolutely a religious holy day. Why is it that all faiths seem to adopt this occasion as their own, and therefore minimize and dilute its sacredness to Christians? What if atheists were to embrace Chanukah? Would that not diminish its import and meaning to the Jewish faithful?

Perhaps, when situated in the context of other religions, the inappropriateness of the vast commercialization of an event regarded as reverent and inviolable to the Christian community can be fully understood.

Christmas is all - and only - about the birth of Christ. It is not about parades and wreaths, gifts and holly. The message of Christ's love may be all inclusive, but those who would separate him from the significance of Christmas should not participate in its celebration.


Hey, guy, remember the one about the plank in your own eye? If you don't want "secular" celebrations during Christmas, maybe you shoud separate it from the old Yule festival, the Winter Solstice, and other assorted rites of winter.

[CornField]

19. Ironically, it's difficult not to participate

What should one who does not celebrate do on Christmas? Go to work and open for business? Perhaps the schools should remain open for those two weeks during the winter -- the college remain in session.

I, for one, am particularly tired of listening to my fanatical fundamentalist family tell me how they are persecuted for their beliefs. The entire nation shuts down for Christmas. Maybe, just to make it more fair in future years, we should rotate December religious observances. Next year, the nation will shut down for Hannuakah... the following year for Solstice... the following for Kawanzaa... the next year not at all... then we could start the cycle all over again with Christmas. This way no one religion would receive special treatment.

[buckettgirl]

20. Blessed Be! thank you for recognizing other religions! n/t

[northzax]

27. personally, I think the spirit was best summed up by this letter:

warning, from the http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20041213-084741-5503r.htm">Moonie Times Christmas-unfriendly malls
As I visited Potomac Mills mall Sunday, I saw no Christmas trees, no candles and no festive banners on light poles; I heard no festive Christmas music to remind shoppers of the season ("U.S. communities fail to keep 'Christ' in Christmas," Page 1, Thursday). Yes, a few stores have small decorations, and a photo shop sells pictures of young children on Santa's knee with plenty of Christmas props nearby. But some grinch stamped out Christmas at Potomac Mills. It didn't use to be this way. In the past, Potomac Mills was a cheerful, pro-Christmas place. Not any longer. The mall's management is ignoring the holiday, and now, pro-Christmas customers ought to ignore the mall.
My recommendation for Christmas shoppers looking for that holiday feeling is to head for the Tysons Corner or Pentagon City malls, where the spirit of Christmas remains strong both audibly and visibly. If you absolutely have to shop at Potomac Mills, wish the cashier a Merry Christmas. Show Potomac Mills and the retail industry that we won't give up Christmas and all that it stands for.

MEGHAN MAGINNIS
Woodbridge, Va.

[stopbush]

36. "Christmas is all - and only - about the birth of Christ."

Then why not celebrate it on his birthday...in August? Oh, right... something about rolling out new products in August. Wouldn't be prudent.

Honestly, the ignorance is overwhelming. I live in the desert (Las Vegas). It's frickin' freezing here at night. Do you really think the shepherds "watched their flocks by night" in the frickin' freezing desert in frickin' mid-winter? Hell no! They were in the barn, waiting out the winter. Maybe by April and into August you could "watch your flocks by night" in the desert without freezing to death.

And don't get me started on the "it's not Xmas, it's Christmas" crapola. That Greek symbol for Christ (ie: X) was used as shorthand and graffiti by the early Xtians. Any whack job who recoils at the use of "Xmas" or "Xtians" gets an "F" in church history and has to return their plastic Jesus to WalMart immediately!

And then, there's the white-man's-Jesus art work. Blue eyes and all. Mention to a fundie that Jesus probably looked like Jerry Stiller and they have a heart attack.

Why is it that atheists seem to know more about religion than the "religious?"

[Selwynn]

15. Don't take the Fuck out of Fuck you either.

[Bluebear]

30. hehehehehehehe

[donheld]

54. "Don't take the You out of Fuck you either."

:evilgrin:

[Chovexani]

71. I hope you don't mind if I steal that

Stealing is the spirit of the season anyway. :P

[buckettgirl]

18. Bring it on!

The closer to home this gets, the more pissed off I am. I am from Hays Kansas, only 3 hours from Wichita.
I am going to piss off all the fundies I can.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS and SEASON'S GREETINGS here I come!
Everyone I see will get a dose of either one. May the Goddess bless them all!

[CornField]

23. Wish everyone you meet a very Merry Yule

It's my personal favorite. :)

[buckettgirl]

31. I proposed the experiment yesterday

go to walmart, malls, kmart, grocery stores, anywhere public (but make sure you have a flexible schedule)
Just wonder around the store (pretend to shop) and everytime you see someone, make eye contact and use all the holiday greetings you can think of besides "Merry Christmas" - flush out the freepers.
In fact, when I head to town tomorrow, I am going to do this. At a minimum, I will spread some holiday cheer and maybe have a fundie encounter to write to DU about.
They hijacked pagan holidays and rituals and then claim it is all about them - hate to use the word hate, but I believe that I do indeed hate them fundies!

[DemBones DemBones]

65. So you're going to go out and see if you can

deliberately irritate people just to be able to brag about your fundie encounter at DU?

This is NOT the way to win people's hearts and minds.

[buckettgirl]

110. nooo

sorry if you misunderstood my intent. Is my intent to irritate fundies? Yes. But if they are gonna have issues, I will probably irritate them further by telling them how wrong they are.
Does that mean that I will post here? Maybe, maybe not; but I am not attempting to do this just to get a story here.
I genuinely do want to spread holiday cheer, especially when there are people out there who have no one to spend the holidays with. With that being said, I am going to do this as inexpensively as possible, i.e. telling someone happy holidays, then it is my duty as an American not to exclude anyone. If I piss off a fundie, oh well, it would still be fun.

[secedeeconomically]

22. What the matter with Kasia? lol i good book too

[yellowcanine]

24. Christmas tree is from pagan tree worship, for Christ's sake!

What's wrong with these people? Real fundies don't even have a Christmas tree. And they don't say "Merry Christmas" they say "Blessed Christmas".

[Coventina]

25. ROFL!!! "Christmas tree"

HAHAHAHAHA!!!


Man, does he realize how ignorant he sounds?
He doesn't realize that "Christmas" is a pastiche of Saturnalia and Germanic paganism?

Man, fundies are so dumb, they're cute!!!

[Liberal Veteran]

26. Yeah...remember in the bible when Mary and Joseph decorated the tree...

....in celebration of the impending birth?

[juliagoolia]

32. write jennifer and tell her she did FINE IM PISSED NOW

[e-mail]


I just called her and told her GO GIRL! thats crap. It is a community tree and 60 emails is nothing.. wait til they see the emails DU can generate.
Contact number for Sell out Mayor too

: [phone]
: [phone] fax
[e-mail]

here is what the event was about


What: Official Downtown & Tree Lighting Ceremony

When: Tuesday, December 7 at 6 PM

Where: Kennedy Plaza, Century II

Who: City Council, Santa, Sponsors including Wichita Downtown Development Council, KAKE-TV, B98 FM & others



Wichita’s popular "Winterfest" returns, Tuesday, December 7, 6:00 PM at Century II’s Kennedy Plaza. Highlights include Mayor Carlos Mayans "officially" lighting the community tree and downtown, a performance by the South High School Mistrals, horse-drawn carriage rides, a special appearance from Santa Claus unlike any other and, of course, fireworks! This event is free and open to the public.

Mayor Carlos Mayans and City Manager George Kolb realized that missing from the calendar of exciting Wichita events was something to officially kick off the holiday season. Wichita Winterfest had been on hiatus for several years due to lack of sponsorship. Community partners were sought to bring back this popular event. The result is the return of Winterfest.

"The response from our partners asked to help was: ‘Absolutely! What can we do?’ To me, this said that the event was very much needed," said Mayor Carlos Mayans.

Contributing to the holiday spirit that evening are two events at Century II including a Jim Brickman Holiday Concert and the Wichita Symphony Orchestra presents "A Musical Holiday" - a free family concert featuring the Butler County Community College Concert Choir and Jay Decker as Guest Conductor. Attendees of these events are encouraged to arrive early and help City officials light up downtown and enjoy a festive event.

This event is also an opportunity to help the Kansas Food Bank with their food drive. Guests are encouraged to bring a canned good to the event and drop it at specially marked Kansas Food Bank receptacles.

Winterfest began in 1991 and was originally established by blending two existing holiday events into one. The goal of Winterfest has always been to bring the community together and celebrate the beginning of the holiday season. Winterfest is a gift to Wichita from public and private partners including the City of Wichita, Wichita Downtown Development Council, KAKE-TV, B98 FM, AAA Port-o-Jon and Wichita Festivals Inc. For more information on this event, contact the City Manager’s Office at 268-4351.



do notice the small mention of 'the community tree'.

[juliagoolia]

35. I just keep getting more PISSED Letter to Mayor

Letter to Mayor

Dear Carlos,

Do you represent 60 people that send emails complaining about the word Community Tree, or do you represent the community? This carrying on of what someone calls a tree is ridiculous. I don't know who called the news reporter to tell him, but can only assume it was you? Whats up with that? It seems all the Fox news, and Republican PUNDITS are busy complaining about the theft of Christmas. I can't believe its a story at all.

Why don't you have some backbone and tell them that the CITY does not celebrate religious events, and they can call the TREE in the HOME or the CHURCH a Christmas Tree. Are the local Jewish people also paying for the events that you are promoting? Are the Muslim in your community thrilled that the city govt they are paying for is getting involved in religious tit for tats? I would think not.

I am a Christian and regardless of what you call the DARN tree I will still celebrate the holiday. I don't think TREEs have anything to do with Christianity. The Holiday you put the tree up over is SANTA DAY! The fact that the story ended up in a newspaper due to 60 emails is more telling than you know. You are likely to get quite a few emails now. Not nearly as happy as you'd like. You and the News reporter need to find DAY JOBS so you can deal with real issues.

I wrote to BOTH OF YOU>

[juliagoolia]

51. He wrote back!!!!!!!!!!!!

From: "Mayans, Carlos" <[e-mail]> Add to Address Book
To: "[e-mail]'" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tree Stink!
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:20:32 -0600


Julia, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

[juliagoolia]

53. So did the reporter. Not as flippant though!

From: "Abraham Levy" <[e-mail]> Add to Address Book
Subject: Re: Tree Story


I appreciate and understand your feedback and will make note of it.
Sincerely,

Abe Levy

[jesusq]

55. Put Jesus Christ back in our Christmas songs

Sung to the tune of Frosty the Snowman

Frosty the Snowman, was Jesus' very best friend
Andhe stood there melting by the cross
and he stayed there til the end ...

[flaminbats]

56. What Christ? There is only Christmas and the axis of evil..

Son of the living God, savior of mankind, and the prince of peace..sacrificed for the good of Rome. Christianity adopted as a national religion for the good of Rome. What would Jesus say today to those becoming rich because of Christmas? What would the prince of peace say to a nation of hypocrites justifying the use of nuclear weapons against mortals in the name of power and pride? What would the Son of God say to those who call his mother a virgin..and claim this is only truth or the word of God? What would he say to the rich who scream against the evils of equality and handouts? What would the savior of humanity say to those who will never forgive or prey for those who commit acts of terrorism in the name of morality?

Merry Christmas and happy New Year?

[Sugarbleus]

57. Let churches and other private orgs have their "Christmas Tree" but

ALSO let other groups have their particular celebratory decorations up. I like the lights in the mid winter months; it could be fun having everyone participating in these winter "holiday" months...not JUST christians......Heck, historians claim that Christ wasn't even born in December!

Let's see Menorahs, Kwanza symbols and any symbols of whatever other groups there are (Pagans, Muslims,Native Aemricans?)........Let it be one big party.B-) Don't let ONLY Christians hog all the fun/season. Include everyone, or exclude all of it. Seems rational to me =o)

[Behind the Aegis]

59. Interesting request

I find it odd that he is asking for people not to take the "Christ out of Christmas," when so many of them have taken the "Christ" out of "Christian!" All year they try to deny others their rights, uphold hate and bigotry, but now they are the "victims?!" They are the 'kings' of hypocrisy! Aren't these the same people that bitched about "frivolous" lawsuits? Seems they have no issue with it when it serves their evil needs! Fuck them! I am so sick and tired of these people thinking they are victims in this country...hell, in this world! They have destroyed and continue to destroy a belief system that has much potential at healing the world. They are sad, sad people and will be surprised when they meet G-d and discover She is a Black Lesbian! :)

[Piperay]

60. Why don't the Christians knock off all this crap and

celebrate a real Christian Christmas without trees, gifts, Santa Claus and all the other hoopla that goes with the holiday and does not have anything to do with Christianity anyway. They should just go to church on Dec. 25 (no one is stopping them) and then shut the fuck up and let the rest of us enjoy the HOLIDAY however we want to. :mad:

[DemBones DemBones]

63. Many Christians would like to see a return to a less commercial

celebration of Christmas. I agree with that but am also in the group of Christians who don't object to others celebrating Christmas as a purely cultural holiday, and a hugely commercial one if that't their choice, as long as they're respectful of our beliefs, too.
I don't get upset about the abbreviation Xmas since I know that X is an early symbol for Christ, but I don't want "Merry Christmas" and Nativity scenes banished.

If I say "Merry Christmas" to someone, s/he shouldn't take it as a form of religious proselytizing but as a simple wish for his/her enjoyment of the holidays. And I've known for many years that it's polite to wish Jewish people "Happy Chanukah" instead. But my usual holiday greeting is "Merry Christmas!" When someone wishes me "Happy Holidays," I don't take it as an attack on Christianity but I do object to the trend for businesses, television stations to avoid wishing anyone a Merry Christmas.

Some time back, society at large realized that it was only fair to wish our Jewish compatriots a Happy Chanukah, and then Kwanzaa appeared on the calendar, and more people began celebrating the Winter Solstice, too. That was fine, when businesses wished us Happy Hanukah, Happy Kwanzaa, Happy Solstice, AND Merry Christmas, but gradually Christmas has been getting pushed over on the sidelines. Cities and schools are allowing public displays of menorahs for Chanukah and the Islamic star and crescent for Ramadan, but refusing to allow Nativity scenes for Christmas because "they are religious symbols". Hell-o! Menorahs are religious symbols! The star and crescent together is a religious symbol! How about we allow all major holidays to be celebrated? Or we say no religious symbols in public areas, schools included, and we mean it?

[Chovexani]

69. Oh give me a break

I agree with you on the idea that if public displays of some religious symbols are allowed, then all should be (including Christian ones), but if you really want to express a simple wish for people to enjoy their holidays maybe you should start by not automatically assuming they celebrate YOUR holiday (which was blatantly stolen from someone else's to begin with). Everyone does not share your religious beliefs, in fact most of the world doesn't, and assuming otherwise is the height of arrogance. Arrogance is not exactly in the spirit of the season (whichever season that happens to be). As a Pagan I have to deal with fundies trying to cram their religion down my throat on an almost daily basis even in this bluest of blue cities in this blue-ass state I live in. These people stole all their damn holidays from us and then have the gall to try and shove their bootleg versions down our throats. It's just tiring. When people tell me Merry Christmas I tell them Happy Mithras Day. I'm sure that has as much meaning for them as Christmas does to me.

Then again I'm also totally fucking tired of people assuming I celebrate Kwanzaa just because I'm black...in fact I actively go out of my way to ignore it but that's another rant for another thread.

[renaissanceguy]

62. Pat Buchanan wouldn't even let someone from the ACLU

explain his position on Scarborough Country. He just said basically, too bad, you're not getting a chance to explain. And the ACLU guy said "Well happy Solstice, buddy." It was priceless!

The problem with Christians is that 1) they have no respect for other beliefs because they think theirs is the only right set, and 2) they believe that they can convert anybody and everybody to their religion. They don't care about being PC--they want everyone else to convert or get out.

So, I suggest we piss them off. If a stranger (i.e. store associate) wishes you a Merry Christmas, and you object (i.e. prefer Happy Holidays), respond with "Happy Hanukkah," "Happy Solstice," or "Happy Kwanzaa," even if you are a Christian. It'll show them that the minority groups DO matter and will NOT go away. (They won't know that you really celebrate Christmas).

------------------------------------------------
Buy liberal, anti-Bush, and other outspoken political merchandise at www.cafepress.com/liberalissues

[DemBones DemBones]

64. Wait a minute! You're extrapolating from Pat Buchanan, a very right-wing

Republican, to

"The problem with Christians is that 1) they have no respect for other beliefs because they think theirs is the only right set, and 2) they believe that they can convert anybody and everybody to their religion. They don't care about being PC--they want everyone else to convert or get out."

:eyes:

[QC]

66. There must have been a special on broad brushes down at Ace Hardware. n/t

[DemBones DemBones]

86. LOL! You're not kidding, there are many in

use on this crisp December morning.

[NoPasaran]

67. What's this "Christ" business everyone keeps dragging in?

I thought Christmas was supoosed to be all about Santa Claus bringing presents.
:shrug:

[Chovexani]

72. ROFL

If only it was...

My mom, who normally keeps her fundie religion to herself to some degree, gets totally fucking obnoxious and borderline anti-Semitic around this time of year. She loves to spout this oh-so-cute fundie phrase "Jesus is the reason for the season".

She doesn't say it around me anymore though 'cause I tend to respond with, "no, actually Mithras is the reason for the season, Jesus was probably born in the spring." :P

[area51]

70. Hey, mayor...

"`God is God, and a Christmas tree is a Christmas tree,' he said."

Actually, God is God, and a Christmas tree is pagan in origin. Perhaps he's trying to put the "witch" back in Wichita. (I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.) :evilgrin:

[OneTwentyoNine]

73. Ah,this is nothing,we might get another chance at having evolution banned.

Yup,looks like more flaming Conservatives on the Education board of Kansas might give it another shot at banning evolution in schools and go back to creation teaching in public schools.

This was actually done in 2000 but overturned in 01. There are some real crazy BASTARDS living in this State.

[kydo]

78. Um... but the Christ was never really ...

in Christmas in the first place. Depending on which sources you believe Jesus was born either on March 1, 7BC or Sept 15, 7BC. It wasn't until 314AD that Constantine arbitrarily changed the date of Jesus’ official birthday to Dec 25. Constantine's reason for making the change was two-fold. Firstly, it separated the Christian celebration from any Jewish association, thereby suggesting that Jesus was himself a Christian and not a Jew. Secondly, the adjustment of Jesus' official birthday was designed to coincide with the customary pagan Sun Festival of "Sol Invictus."

All the other stuff we associate with Christmas today, came later as more cultures began adopting or were forced (again depending on your point of view) into adopting Christianity. Many of the symbols we now consider part of Christmas are pagan in origin.

~kydo
btw - I'm Catholic. The Chruch as offically said Christ was not born on Dec 25. They say Sept. Only the Church is very low key about it. No sense in changing the mistake after 2000 years I suppose. But the true meaning of Christmas is what Christ was supposed to embody, love for one another. Peace and Love not War and Hate. IMHO :shrug:

[rainbow4321]

87. Okies have their panties in a wad over nativity scene removal

So in a year if they are bitching that their schools are overcrowded, someone please toss this up into their collective pugass faces...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=335264&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312


MUSTANG, Okla. Dec 15, 2004 — Voters incensed over a superintendent's decision to remove a Nativity scene from an elementary school Christmas program took out their anger at the ballot box, helping to defeat bond measures worth nearly $11 million. Tuesday's rejection of the two measures one of which would have paid for construction of an elementary school marked the first time in more than a decade that voters in this bedroom community west of Oklahoma City denied additional funds for their school district.

The day before the election, dozens of parents at a school board meeting expressed outrage at Superintendent Karl Springer's decision to end the school's tradition of closing the Christmas play with a manger scene. Both of the bond issues in Mustang received about 55 percent support, but 60 percent was needed for approval.

"You've got to tell them you're not going to sit by and let them take away your rights," said Tim Pope, a former Republican legislator and leader of the campaign against the bond issues. Concerned over the issue of separation of church and state, Springer had sought advice from the school board attorney, who recommended that the Nativity scene be removed. The children still got to sing "Silent Night," but Springer took out the manger scene.

[kslib]

90. also from the article

Some parents were angry that Santa Claus, a Christmas tree and symbols of Hanukkah and Kwanzaa were left in the production.

"If you're going to cut one symbol, then cut them all," said Shelly Marino, the parent of a third-grader at the elementary school. "Santa Claus was in the play and a Christmas tree was displayed, but that's not a Christian symbol."

Just thought I'd present another piece of it. I think that most of them were angry because some symbols made the cut, and theirs didn't.

I do agree with you though; really nice that they voted down money for their kids to protest this.

:eyes:

[JohnOneillsMemory]

91. Fascist psy-ops: Weaponize something good, demonize the outraged.

This is the way the domestic culture war (psy-ops propaganda to intentionally stir people up and chill dissent) works:

Take something, like the US government, do terrible things with it.

Then, when liberals criticize the terrible things, Repubs claim liberals are criticizing the good part and so 'liberals must be bad.'

"They hate us for our freedom."
"They are jealous of our virtue because they are sooooo bad."
Amazingly, this really resonates in A MASTER RACE MENTALITY!

OR:

Neo-cons put a baby in hot water.
Liberals accuse them of abuse.
Neo-cons claim that 'liberals hate babies.'

Christmas has been weaponized the exact same way.

Neo-cons use religion to kill people with the New Crusades.
Liberals cite First Amendment separation of church and state.
Neo-cons claim that 'liberals hate God, Jesus, Santa, etc.'

Neo-cons use our children as troops to kill for oil.
Liberals scream bloody murder.
Neo-cons claim 'liberals hate our troops.'

That last one is the most dangerous because it will lead to a Tienanmin Square situation where our own troops will be called in to stomp on 'enemies of the state' or PROTESTERS.
http://museums.cnd.org/June4th/massacre.html
(Photos of Tienanmin Square Massacre of Protesters)

The Inaugaral parade will see Bush* surrounded by troops so that the hostility of the massive protests will be used to claim that liberals are against the troops 'just like the Fallujan insurgents.'

January 20, 2005 is the next big psy-op event to create a Brown Shirt movement in this heavily armed and polarized country.

[sarcasmo]

109. "IM going to Wichita a seven nation army couldn't hold me back"

The White Stripes, seven nation army.

[WCGreen]

112. Celebrate December 25th just like the Puritan...

The people who took the Fun out of fundamentalists, and treat the day as any other day...

This whole Christmas thing is way out of step with the original approach that the Christians took...

They just usurped the solstice celebration. It wasn't even recognized as a holy day on the Christian Calender....

It is a celebration of consumerism, plain and simple.....

[Warren DeMontague]

113. Don't take the "Christ" out of my pagan winter celebration, replete w/tree

And you had better not take the bunnies (fertility symbols-- of f*cking, no less) and the eggs (more fertility symbols) out of my Christian, Springtime Easter (aka "Ishtar") Celebration..

Someone needs to get a clue.

(And, for the record, this athiest doesn't give a f*ck what they call the tree.)

[Warren DeMontague]

114. The only way the tree would have anything remotely to do with christ

is if there was a wooden guy nailed to it.

[atommom]

115. Sounds like political posturing to me. Why can't some of these

upstanding citizens take their moral outrage and do something constructive with it?