Anyone familiar with basic traffic law? Or even just basic law?

[kuozzman]

I went to court on 11/3 for driving on a suspended license. I didn't get an attorney, but had talked to the DA before my court date. He said there is a mandatory 5 days in the slammer for my offense, but the court usually waves it if you have a clean record (I did) and gives you probation. That's what happened-a fine and 6 months probation. So today I get a letter in the mail saying my license is suspended for 3 months! So I called the Dept of Rev and they said state law says you get a mandatory 3 month suspension for driving while suspended. Wouldn't (or shouldn't) the judge or the DA have mentioned this to me? They can't just send you a letter in the mail saying, oh, by the way, we never mentioned this in court, but your license is suspended, have a nice day. Can they? I would have rather served the 5 days! I appreciate any advice.....

[ET Awful]

1. If it's a policy of your state's motor vehicle registry/department

Then the court probably wouldn't mention it since they have no say in it. Many states, if your record shows the offense, the motor vehicle registry/department (whoever the licensing agency is) will automatically enact the suspension.

On edit: Also, if it's a State law that there is an automatic suspension of the license, serving the 5 days wouldn't make a difference, you'd still get the suspension.

It does suck, but it is most likely legit.

[Debi]

2. What state do you live in?

I'm in Iowa, and here the Court and the Department of Transportation (the people who regulate driver's licenses) are two seperate entities that have two separate sets of rules.

So, here, if the Court gave you the probation or the jail..the DOT says 'Whoop de doo, we're takin his license away'. And you're out of luck.

:thumbsdown:

[kuozzman]

10. I live in KS

Do I not have a right to defend myself with both entities? Was I just on trial with both at the same time and they didn't think I needed to know that?

And why should the Dept. of Revenue have the power to just send people more punishments and fines 1 1/2 months after the court date? Shouldn't it be the DMV?

I know......because they're the government! They're greedy bastards and have no problem making peoples' lives difficult in order to get more money to waste.....

[Debi]

15. I don't know anything about who does what in KS

When a person in Iowa gets arrested for a moving violation such as driving while license suspended they receive paperwork from the Dept. of Transportation. The problem is that an awful lot of people think that it's just part of their District Court paperwork and don't review it or follow up on what it directs them to do.

If a person gets a ticket for a moving violation and being found guilty of the offense will affect their driving privileges then the Dept. of Transportation sends them a letter.

In Iowa it's not a rouge agency that has a secret agenda. People just don't know that there are two different groups watching over them.

on a personal note...and probably too personal...if you had a clean driving record, how did your license get suspended?

[Poppyseedman]

3. Advice???

Get a lawyer next time. Chalk this up to a good life's lesson.

You would have taken 5 days in the jail instead of 3 month suspension?

I don't know where you live, but where I do, the slammer isn't a nice place even for a night.

Not to be rude or obnoxious, but you trusted the DA to be straight with you?

I got a bridge in Brooklyn, you want to buy it. Cheap, just today.

[kuozzman]

11. I'm in KS, my buddy was in jail for a weekend and said it wasn't so bad,

it's not Leavenworth, the big one. I'm not good with obeying punishments like a 3 month suspension and feel like I'd be better off getting it over with.

[MnFats]

4. money spent on an attorney is usually well-spent...

....
it's a pity, but most of us need help negotiating the legal system.
most of us need an attorney to get us out of a mess.

I have found this to be true (via observation, not personal experience), ESPECIALLY if you're in big trouble (say, charged with something like a violent crime) and MOST ESPECIALLY if you're guilty.

[Debi]

5. If you're guilty

You're gonna need more than a lawyer! :hangover:

[theboss]

6. The DMV suspended your license based on the points, I imagine

The license suspension was not part of your punishment. However, you pled guilty which carries an automatic number of points being put on your license. Once the DMV recorded those points, your license was suspended.

Here is an example. Say a license is suspended at ten points. Speeding carries a 1 point penalty. You have 9 points on your license and get picked up. You would plead guilty and pay the fine. That's the legal ramification. However, your license would later be suspended because of the additional point.

Courts can reduce the punishment but the points are always automatic.

[kuozzman]

9. It wasn't points, just the offense, I think.....

And it's bullshit....

[theboss]

14. Write a request for a "restricted" license

That way you can at least get to and from work.

[kuozzman]

16. Thanks, I guess I'll have to...

[northzax]

20. er, didn't you already have a suspended license?

what did you do to earn that?


Something's fishy here.

[kuozzman]

21. It was originally suspended for not paying a ticket

That slipped my mind and when I moved, I didn't get a new DL right away, so I never got the notice that it was suspended, which is my own fault. Then I got stopped and became aware of that. So I paid the ticket, which reinstated my driving privileges. Now, months after that and 1 1/2 months after court, I'm informed it's suspended for the next 3 months......

[Yuugal]

7. Ignorance of the law

is no excuse son! Or at least thats the excuse they usually use around here when they bend you over. Sometimes they default to the tried and true: "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime" but thats almost always in egregious cases like when they are sentencing you to 8 yrs for possessing a doob.

[leyton]

13. Things like this might be in the driver's manual.

I remember taking driver's ed in NC and we were required to memorize all the penalties for that sort of thing.

[kuozzman]

22. How old are you?

Are you young or do you just have a good memory? I forgot most of that, plus it was in a different state....

[beyurslf]

8. Next time get an attorney.

DA's are there to punish the "bad" people and make money for the county. They are not there to help you out.

[kuozzman]

12. I talked to a lawyer and a freind who is a city prosecutor (in Chicago)

and they both told me to do what I did. And it sounds like they were right about that and that the Dept. of Rev's suspension is automatic?

[Debi]

18. I gotta tell ya...

I have a real beef with people who won't waste their money hiring an attorney but have no problem seeking legal advice for free, then bitch when they don't like the outcome.

I've read your posts and tried to be helpful, but I'm coming to the conclusion that you just want to cry victim w/out any responsiblity on your shoulders...it's the DA's fault, the attorney I didn't hire's fault, my friend the prosecutor in another state's fault and of course the government's fault, but NOOOO it is definately not your fault.

I don't know anyone who asks for free gas, cuz they don't want to pay the high price but need the fuel to drive their cars. or Asks for free food at a nice restaurant because they don't like the high prices, but desire a nice meal. How about asking your doctor step-by-step instructions on how to give yourself stitches but then sue him if you get an infection. AAARRGGHH.

<rant over>

[kuozzman]

23. AAAARRRGGHHH my ass! Maybe you should reread my posts....

First of all, I have only one complaint. That is that when I was in court and the judge sentenced me to 6 mos. probation and a hefty fine, I thought that was my punishment in it's entirety.

When I got a letter today that said my DL is suspended for 3 months, I was surprised, to say the least. And yes, I was and still am pissed.

Second, it sounds like this isn't even an issue that could be discussed in court, since they didn't issue the punishment.

And of the people you claim I blame for this; the DA, the attorney I didn't hire, my friend the prosecutor in another state and of course the government, I only blame one of them, the government or more specifically, the Dept. of Revenue. The others were only mentioned when I was giving background of the situation and everything they did or said was correct.

I am more than willing to accept the consequences of breaking the law. But as far as I know, people have a right to a trial in this country, which I exercised and was given a sentence that I accepted. When the Dept. of Revenue just completely bypasses by the justice system and rather than a court deciding, suspends the license of anyone who pleads guilty to driving on a suspended license, yes I think that is complete bullshit!

And how the hell are your analogies anything like my situation. I'm not asking for anything free! I'm paying over $300 and am on probation for 6 months and I accept that!

And I'd be happy to correct your analogies for you:

Would you be pissed if you bought ten gallons of gas, but the gas station later informed you that the meter is set to read "10", every nine gallons? It goes towards repairing the roads you drive on. Oh, it's just standard procedure.

Would you be pissed if you went to a nice restaurant, enjoyed the nice meal that you spent the extra money for, then the bill says there is an extra $30 fee just to be able to eat there?

Or how about if you got stitches and later realized they were the kind that paralyze you left hand for two weeks?

AAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHHH!

[KSAtheist]

27. You don't have a right to trial in this case...

You might have the right to a hearing of some sort. Maybe. But no trial.

A. The state of Kansas has the right to add any penalties and sanctions to your license should you fail to comply with the restrictions of said license. When you plead guilty to driving while suspended, then that's proof to the Kansas Department of Revenue that you did indeed violate the restrictions of your suspension, and can be sanctioned as such. The three-month addition was automatic, and since you did admit it in a court of law, there's nothing you can do.

B. The DA and judge informed you about the penalties you would face in your local town. The Department of Revenue is not a law enforcement office, unlike the KBI, so the local DA and Judge are under no obligations to inform you about any penalties you would face through the state DOR.

[kuozzman]

36. Yeah, that appears to be the situation.

I'm just a little peeved about the whole "sneaky" way they go about doing it. And that I didn't know pleading guilty would lead to that. I realize that had I gotten a lawyer, he probably would have let me know, which would have been nice and is my own fault. It's still pretty shady though, the Dept. of Rev. bypassing the trial, but handing out punishments based on what is said in the trial.....

[Debi]

39. So it's the govenment's fault

That you got a speeding ticket that you 'forgot' about paying, moved w/out leaving a forwarding address, waited to get your DL renewed and then got caught speeding again? But wait, in your first post you stated that you had a clean record? How could you have a speeding conviction and have a clean record?

And for each of your arguments against my analogies you throw in hidden motivations....but the laws and administrative regulations aren't hidden, you just either missed them in your forgetting your first speeding ticket or ignored them in your move and not renewing your driver's license in the required 30 days after a move.

Again, ulitmately your problem is your responsiblity and hiring a lawyer would have lessend the impact of your actions (btw, you usually have 10-30 days to appeal a suspension - go talk to a lawyer NOW).

[kuozzman]

42. I will, thanks....

And I want to make sure you see what I'm mad about:

I'm not complaining about being punished for breaking the law.

In court, the judge sentenced me to 6 months probation and $330 fine.

I deserve that and have no problem with that.

I think it's wrong that a non-Judicial Dept. of Govt. (Revenue) hands out serious, temporarily life-altering punishments, which aren't discussed in court, based on the verdict of the court. That seems like it is violating some aspect of having a right to a trial? Just because it seems like I'm supposed to take the suspension into account when deciding if I will plead guilty or not, but it's not something that the court has anything to do with.

I realize that if I had gotten a lawyer in the first place, I would have better informed and maybe able to avoid or lessen the suspension, so I accept it. But I don't think it's fair the way they go about doing it and I don't think I'm the first person this has happened to. There is nothing I hate more than the govt., corps. or people taking advantage of people and that is really what has got me worked up about this-that they do this all the time. I'm sure there are other people this happens to and it causes more serious problems for them, than it does me. You should have seen the people who were at court besides me. Out of at least 30 people, I was the only one who either cared to or was able to, dress somewhat nicely(just khakis and a collared shirt). Everybody there appeared to be low-income and they were there for all these dumbass charges that basically came down to the fact that they couldn't afford to obey the law. They'll eat less or have less necessities for doing things that other just buy their way of. This likely isn't news to you and I'm sure you would agree that it's pretty pathetic.

[hfojvt]

28. I used to have "customers"

who seemed to feel that my bookstore was a library.
The trouble with the analogy is that I buy gas because I want to drive my car. Needing a lawyer because of a traffic stop is more like being the victim of an accident or being mugged by the state.

By the way, there seem to have been alot of drive-offs because most of the gas stations around here are making people pre-pay.

Hindsight does no good, but my preference is for jury trials. I lost one, but I like the idea of making the cop spend half a day testifying and that the state (of Iowa in my case) spent about $200 to collect a $60 fine. If enough of us do that, they might consider leaving us the hell alone when we are just driving to work sans seatbelt.

<rant over>

The suspension probably came with instructions about appealing, or as someone mentioned the work exemption.

There sure do seem to be alot of Kansans on this board. If you are ever in Leavenworth, stop by and see me. I am Convict #9652.
Not really. Just thought I would try a "Raising Arizona" joke to lighten the mood.

[Debi]

41. Some states do get tougher on foreigners....

Not Iowa....no way :silly:

The only negative to a jury trial (and any trial) is that if you lose...you incur the cost of the jury, the cop's 1/2 day pay and so on...but if you win...hehe.

My analogies may not have been perfect, but I do get tired of people expecting our office to provide a service for free when our groceries are not free, gas is not free, food is not free...what, lawyers don't have bills to pay.

I agree on the book store - especially the magazine section...they're FOR SALE and FOR BROWSE! Like people at the grocery store that eat the grapes or peanuts...what, like the store didn't have to pay for those?

[kuozzman]

44. I know you weren't just responding to me, but just to make it clear

I DON'T WANT ANYTHING FOR FREE, I SIMPLY WOULD HAVE LIKED SOME NOTIFICATION THAT MY LICENSE WAS GOING TO BE SUSPENDED FOR THREE MONTHS BEFORE THE 1ST DAY OF THE SUSPENSION.

I don't think I've mentioned this yet, but, I got it reinstated the next day, after I got the ticket. So I thought that solved that problem, especially since it was originally for an unpaid ticket.

So when I went to court for "driving on a suspended license" and got a fine and probation, I thought that was it.

Am I being out of line here? b/c I simply can't understand how this doesn't really bother, or at least surprise anybody else much.

[muriel_volestrangler]

17. Unless you tell us why you were originially suspended

you're unlikely to get much sympathy here. I think you've got away lightly with only 3 months more suspension, if you had already been suspended for a valid reason.

[kuozzman]

24. It was originally suspended for not paying a ticket (minor speeding)

That slipped my mind and when I moved, I didn't get a new DL right away, so I never got the notice that it was suspended, which is my own fault. Then I got stopped and became aware of that, but nevertheless, was still charged. So I paid the ticket, which reinstated my driving privileges. Now, months after that and 1 1/2 months after court, I'm informed it's suspended for the next 3 months......Maybe you didn't notice(or maybe I didn't say?)that in court, I got 6 months probation and fined over $300. I was under the impression that was my punishment in it's entirety.

[muriel_volestrangler]

29. OK, you do have some sympathy from me

since you were unaware that you had been suspended.

But I can see the point that others have made - that if the 3 months suspension is mandatory, then it still would have happened if you'd had the jail time instead of the fine and probation. If you had been told "it's jail and 3 month's suspension; or a fine and probation" then you might have a case for complaint. But as far as I can tell, no-one mentioned suspension at all until you were told it was mandatory.

[kuozzman]

35. Exactly. I'm just saying it would have been nice for them to

maybe give me a "heads up", instead of a letter I recieve on 12/15 saying that as of 12/15, my license is suspended.

[Cuban_Liberal]

19. They have no obligation to tell you.

Your DMV does what it does, separate and apart from what the court of competent jurisdiction does. Judiciary vs. Executive.

[kuozzman]

25. Yeah, not that it's surprising, but that seems pretty unfair.....

Especially since it's the Dept. of Revenue, not even the DMV!

[KSAtheist]

26. I work for the WPD...

Suspensions are handled by the state of Kansas. Violations of the suspensions are handled by the local law enforcement offices. Say you were driving while suspended in Wichita; you would be in violation of Wichita ordinance 1142030C. You would be tossed in jail for five days for your violation of the city code, and information about the violation of the suspension terms would be sent to the state, where they would decide what action to take. That's why no judge or DA informed you of this.

Here's a tip. Don't drive while suspended. If you knowingly drove while suspended and get in big trouble, then, in the words of the great poet and philosopher Kurtis Blow: THESE! ARE! THE! BREAKS!

[ProdigalJunkMail]

30. are penalties less severe for driving while suspended without

knowledge of that? Notifications in some states are sent via the regular US mail...and those CAN get lost (no return receipt requested)...what then?

theProdigal

(I faced a similar situation recently but got the charges reduced due to the fact that I was not aware thay my license had been suspended...)

[Debi]

38. There are ways...

If you can show that you were unaware (usually by a telephone hearing and stating to the Administrative Law Judge for the DMV that you were unaware) you will get a one year probation sentence that just means no tickets for a year.

[newportdadde]

31. Always... always get a lawyer.

I've had two accidents and a ticket and a lawyer will make it all go away. Its really simple.

The first accident I was Mr Goody and went and plead guilty and then I ate higher insurance and points on my license for like 5 years, this was when I was 16.

For the traffic ticket I got an attorney, called up the DA found out what the 'fine' aka bribe was. So I would have paid something like 75 bucks and had points on my license instead I payed the lawyer 100, the 75 fee and 100 in 'processing costs' walla it changed to vechile malfunction - no points, no insurance change.

When you plead guilty you ate those points that the problem an attorney would have either gotten you no points at all or reduced points.

[Jack_DeLeon]

32. You should have...

plead not guilty and requested a trial by Jury.

Even if you were guilty there would still be a chance that the Jury would let you off if they knew the circumstances of your "guilt."

[theboss]

33. You typically don't have that right for traffic violations

I don't know how they operate in Kansas, but you don't have the right to a jury trial for routine traffic violations in most states. You do have the right for a hearing before a judge or magistrate, and you have the right to appeal.

But can you imagine if we went to a jury for every $125 speeding ticket? Dios mio.

[Jack_DeLeon]

34. I dont know about that...

In Texas you have a right to a jury trial for any traffic violation.

IMO if you live in a state that doesnt allow jury trials then that means the system is set up purely for "revenue enhancement" and has little to do with the law or public safety.

[kuozzman]

37. Well I originally just went on diversion, but about a week into it, I

rolled a stop sign, which revoked that. And by going on diversion, I'm pretty sure I waived my right to a jury trial. Plus, I didn't and still don't have a problem with the fine and probation, just the sneaky bullshit from the Dept. of Revenue (surprise suspension)

[KSAtheist]

45. It wouldn't have helped.

No matter what the jury decided, the extension of the suspension would be automatic.

[Tacos al Carbon]

40. "I didn't get an attorney"

This is almost always a mistake.

As for the suspension, it may have come from the DMV rather than the Court so the DA was under no obligation to mention it.

[kuozzman]

43. Yes, that's what happened and that's bs.