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Ironpost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 12:28 AM
Original message
After seeing what we have done in Fallujah
I'm talking about the post on 11/17 (co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/pix/steve_bell/2004/11/17/stblfal.jpg). Fallujah looked like any of OUR cities until we went into there. Somewhere, some how we have to stop this, it has gone on too long, to many lives lost, theirs and ours. Who in his right mind could think we can bring DEMOCRACY to Iraq, while we are destroying every thing in sight, or at least leaving our mark on it. This cannot be America doing this... but I guess it is. If I was a betting man I'd bet we haven't won any hearts or minds, we've just destroyed many, many lives, both here and there and for what?
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
1. Have you seen that book on dead people?
I think I got it on Electronic Iraq site. Course we know Army people look the same dead, it is just that their are so many every day people on top of so few army men. God knows it is a sin to kill any army person but people are a free for all. The military seem to have turned into terrorist also.That is what we said when the Germans bombed Spain in their Civil War.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Can you say war crimes?
This is much the same situation that John Kerry and others described Vietnam as. Soldiers are just being ordered to take everybody out as a "percaution".
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Ironpost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Hague, Netherlands
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Hard to when it is ours doing it. I would call it that.
If you can think of people as being sub-human to your self I guess you can do anything to them. Isn't that what all armies aim for so they can just kill? We seem to have people saying if your not the right type Christian you are sub-human. Really scary as the far right in the Middle East is saying the same about Christians.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
4. America's Fallujan dystopia
Tomgram: Michael Schwartz on America's Fallujan dystopia

A week after the assault on Falluja began in early November, our military announced that the city had been secured -- at the cost of a thousand or more dead Iraqis and 51 American soldiers. Articles about the "reconstruction" of Falluja soon began appearing in our papers and tales of fighting fell away. You had to turn to the inside pages and read deep into articles to discover by early December that, somehow, in secured Falluja, the fighting hadn't ended and another 20 Americans had died. Then all discussion of American casualties in Falluja itself disappeared, while greater numbers of casualties were suddenly reported more generally in al Anbar province (where Falluja is located), including 8 Marines killed on Sunday. On that day as well, missile-armed jets were once again called in to "pound" neighborhoods where insurgent holdouts were still clearly fighting tenaciously. "Although the Marines did not specify where or how their men died in al-Anbar, citing operational security," writes Knight Ridder's Tom Lasseter, "a top officer there confirmed that efforts to pick through every house in Fallujah are plagued by ambushes and gun battles… emphasized that the number of attacks last week was 58 percent lower than during the assault on Fallujah, Nov. 4-11. ‘We have the insurgents on the run,' he said."

In the meantime, as Michael Schwartz recounts below, reports began to ooze out about an American plan to "reconstruct" Falluja by turning it into some kind of Orwellian (or do I mean Kafka-esque) mini-statelet of control. As some of the Iraqi resistance clearly wanted to Talibanize Falluja (and other cities in the Sunni heartland), so now it seems Americans want to create their own fantasy city along more familiarly Western and technological but no less draconian lines. Our President has long said that Iraq is the "central theater in the war on terrorism"; in this spirit, the wanton destruction associated with the jet, the Apache helicopter, and the Hellfire-missile armed Predator drone has been pitted competitively against the wanton destruction associated with the suicide car bomber and the IED in Iraq's heavily populated cities. Each of these weapons can be "targeted" -- against "terrorist safe havens" in one case, against occupation forces and their "collaborators" in another. But each is defined by the "collateral damage" -- dead civilians, the young and the old, noncombatants of every sort -- which in any city has to be part and parcel of their mission.

Now we see evidence that the extreme fantasies of the most extreme elements on both sides of this struggle have similarly been loosed to compete in the Iraqi rubble. It's a competition that offers subtle, almost farcical reminders of past Cold War competitions. Dystopian fantasies of a better (that is, more controlled) world, on both sides, are just that -- fantasies (though the results of trying to impose such fantasy constructs on a real-life population are bound to be devastating).

<snip>

While we chalk up our destructive "victories" in places like Falluja, it turns out that, as befits those fighting what is essentially a brutal guerrilla war against an occupying army, the rebels have been achieving victories of their own. We are trying to take back Sunni cities. They are trying, with significant success, to choke off major supply lines by constantly attacking vulnerable supply convoys. Almost two weeks ago, the 20 kilometer road from Baghdad International Airport to the capital's Green Zone was declared off limits first to British and then to American personnel who must now make it to town via helicopter. As Paul Rogers, geopolitical analyst for the openDemocracy website, commented recently, "Thus, the highway that connects possibly the two most significant American locations in Iraq is now considered too precarious for US forces to use."


www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?emx=x&pid=2072
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Ironpost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Winning hearts and minds.
I think NOT.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. "maybe we should just call it a plain old police (city-)state"
Horrifying; really sends chills down my back. I'd read most of this before, but Schwartz really puts it all together.


"It is not much of a reach to see that, at least in their fantasies, U.S. planners would like to set up what sociologists call a "total institution." Like a mental hospital or a prison, Falluja, at least as reimagined by the Americans, will be a place where constant surveillance equals daily life and the capacity to interdict "suspicious" behavior (however defined) is the norm. But "total institution" might be too sanitized a term to describe activities which so clearly violate international law as well as fundamental morality. Those looking for a descriptor with more emotional bite might consider one of those used by correspondent Pepe Escobar of the Asia Times: either "American gulag" for those who enjoy Stalinist imagery or "concentration camp" for those who prefer the Nazi version of the same. But maybe we should just call it a plain old police (city-)state."



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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 04:13 AM
Response to Original message
8. The worst thing I've heard yet
...is soon we're going to tell people they can go back to their homes in Fallujah.

Say what? Has anyone seen pictures -- REAL pictures -- of what that city looks like now that we've 'retaken it' a couple of times? Very few buildings escaped damage. Most are at least partially collapsed in the streets. There's little to go back to.

Finding my home flattened and my neighbors killed by a foreign military wouldn't engender much of a 'thank you' from me.
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Ironpost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. me either
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BernieBear Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
10. We don't give a rats ass about democracy
It sure isn't about democracy..... not at all.......

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
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