Should the Germans have taken to the streets and overthrown Hitler?

[UdoKier]

Should the Germans have taken to the streets and overthrown Hitler?

Let's say the year is 1942.

[wtmusic]

1. Impossible at that time

Should have been done earlier

[YankeeFan]

7. That Is SO True

Germany had lost her freedoms LONG before then.

Any decent historian will tell you that the July 20, 1944 bomb attempt was only one of many attempts on his life. Check out Albert Speer's "Inside the Third Reich" to get a clue. Near the end of the war even Speer thought of killing Hitler.

There were several attempts. The July bombing was only the most famous.

Taking 1942 as a year for Germany to overthrow Hitler is about the worst possible year to choose from. Germany was at height in ground occupied for starters. While there were reverses here and there, the war was pretty much going Hitlers way.

You really have to go back to the start of the Third Reich to really make sense. In 1933, when Hitler succeeded President Hindenburg (I hope that's the name of the poor old guy), Germany was still a Democracy. Soon any other party besides the National Socialist was banned. When Germany lost the ability to vote for any other political party besides the National Socialist Party it became a Dictatorship.
This means, by the way, why America must always have other Parties to vote for even though they aren't Democrats. We may rarely agree with them on assorted issues, but there will always be some things we will agree on one way or another. The only disagreement being on how to carry out said issue.

Germany had until "The Night of the Long Knives" to rid herself of Hitler. After that night in 1934 National Socialism was too well entrenched to overthrow. A major Civil War would have been needed after that.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

31. impossible at this time too...or rather to late for Iraq anyway

[TahitiNut]

34. But, but, but, but .... Hitler wasn't Hitler before 1942!

As so many, many people have said, until the tyrant kills 11 million people in concentration camps, he's not Hitler, so stop saying that!

Remember! People must always wait until the genocide is underway. Until then, it's "just politics."

:eyes:


(For the reading impaired: yes, this is sarcasm.)

[Chipper Chat]

2. No: other reason:

The treaty of Versailles in 1918 was too harsh on Germany. The people were humiliated (sorta like us dems today after the election). Hitler gave them hope and raised the nation's spirit with his nationalistic attitude and good ideas (autobahns being one). Of course we all know what happened when power went to his head (sorta like the US situation at this very moment, no?)
POLL: How many months (days?) will it be before we attack Syria? Or will Iran be the next lucky victim?

[bluedonkey]

3. By the time most germans

realized what they were in for,it was too late.The ones that new didn't have a voice and/or were ignored.Pretty much like today here in the US of A.
Besides,the majority of Germans of 1933 were a different kind of people,very much used to do as they were told,except for the Socialists and Communists.They were the ones who saw the light early on and sabotaged the regime whenever they could.

[izzie]

5. We spent a whole term in College on this in a history class.

We never settled it. It was a different time. We see it from the other side. People did leave, fight back and were put out. But more people let him stay and went along with it all. Some always do. People left this country in 1776. Fr, rev. did not work but it was picked up all over Eur. It seems to be a mix of some planning and just things happening. We can not plan on things coming out as we like. Some one else may have been worse than Hitler. Stalin was for Rus. Tojo for Jap.Re-call only white men who owned land could vote in this country. Hitler did say what he planned but no one believed him. Yar things do just move on and not always the way we like or hope for. I think the results we want are not always the results we end up with.

[flaminbats]

4. when Hitler won, Communists and Nazis regularly fought in the streets..

that made German Communists targets for Nazis along with Jews.

[YankeeFan]

9. Actually That Was Before Hitler Was Made Chancellor

After he was made Chancellor the Communist Party was outlawed and driven underground.

Jews weren’t the only people stuffed into ovens. Dachau was originally a prison camp for Political prisoners. Political prisoners, in this sense, normally meant the Communist Party.

I think you may want to re-read your history books.

[sherilocks]

19. I toured the Dachau prison camp

when it was a museum with my kids. One of the kids asked how come the villagers nearby didn't notice what was going on at the Dachau prison camp. There was also a list on diaplay of the different kinds of prisoners. I don't recall the exact numbers, but the vast majority were Jewish. Atrocities against any form of humanity, Jews, gypsies, gays, political prisoners, are atrocities. Hitler was pure evil, and the German people had to be aware of it, certainly in the village of Dachau, but by and large did nothing.

[YankeeFan]

23. But It Was For Political Prisoners First

The Jews prisoners came later.

[sherilocks]

29. I'm not sure when Hitler

fired up his ovens, but does it matter who went to Dachau first? If the chimp in charge started concentration camps for political prisoners here in the US, would any of us be surprised? Who would he start with, people from the mid-east, our current scapegoat? Who would be next, those of us who object? It's not all that absurd. What is important is that we learn from history, not forget it. I believe that the Germans knew what was going on, and for whatever reason, chose to ignore it.

BTW, a good DVD to watch is "Fog of War," where Robert McNamara tries to justify or apologize for (I can't tell which) his roll in the Vietnam war. But he does make an important point, without saying it, we are repeating the history of Vietnam in Iraq. The chimp in charge, with his lack of intellectual knowledge, probably doesn't have a clue about the events in Vietnam, assuming he cares.

[Karenina]

33. What's WORSE with Americans

is there is NO EXCUSE. Technology, access, the benefit of history...
250,000 or so dead so far??? :think:

[UdoKier]

39. I'm glad SOME people are not just reading the poll.

But actually understanding the poll.

Unfortunately, there are so many things that cannot be said.

[merbex]

24. I've taken that tour also;

I thought at the time that the people that lived there HAD to know what was going on

What was also interesting was that the concierge at my hotel didn't really want us to make the trip to Dachau; it was not easy getting the directions (I got the sense that he was ashamed)

[sherilocks]

27. I was in a VW camper

and on my own. However, shortly thereafter, I met for dinner with several German business associates in Hanover. I tried to bring up the subject a few times, but they would politely change the subject. It was clear that concentration camps and Hitler were not for discussion. Since these particular individuals were too young to have any involvement in WWII, I'm not sure if it was shame or the fact that German schools did not teach anything about the camps for many years after. I did get the feeling that it was like bringing up the subject of feces during dinner, not history.

[jdots]

6. Somebody should have iced him around 1930 n/t

Atleast the piece of shit could form a sentence without his handlers.

[YankeeFan]

8. I Agree

Adolph Shickelgruber was one of the most brilliant public speakers the world had ever known. I’ve watched old speeches he made. While I had to rely on the subtitles to understand what he was saying, you could very easily understand why he rose to such power. He was hypnotic.

If the Bush Leaguer could talk half as well as Adolf did he would have got all 50 States instead of the 40+ he did get.

[fujiyama]

11. Bush got over 40 states?

That's news to me.

This is what Kerry got: NY, NJ, WI, MI, CA, VT, RI, CT, DE, MD, WA, OR, NH, HI, PA, MA, MN, ME.

That looks like Bush got no more than 50-18=32...and that's not even taking irregularities and possible fraud into account.

[YankeeFan]

14. Ooops!

You're right.

But he still got more States and more votes.

And as I was an Official Poll Watcher, I have to reluctantly have to say that any case of voter fraud is either very minor or a Pipe Dream. When I signed those Official Papers that Tuesday night, I saw no tampering of any kind. Anybody who stayed in line got to vote. While there were a few people who were turned away, it was because they had a different place to vote at. And we gave them all very explicit instructions to their proper Polling Place.

I have no sympathy for voters who got tired of waiting in line and tried to vote at a Polling place where they were NOT enrolled at. I remember one gal who tried to vote but we turned her away because she was not listed as a voter. All she had to do was present her Voter Registration Card and she was in. She refused to do so. We found out later that she had already voted elsewhere. Until laws are passed you can only vote once.

I later remember hearing a stories where thousands of votes were thrown out because people could, or would not answer 2 very simple questions: Are you an American Citizen? Are you a Registered Voter? They did not answer either of the questions. So away their votes went into the garbage. What is so hard about the 2 questions?


You know; a few weeks before the Election was held I saw a news story about a man in Nevada who was dying from cancer. He was permitted to vote in the Election before he died. Where I was stationed there were a few sick or very elderly people in wheelchairs who were permitted to cut in line so they could vote more easily.

I took a solemn oath to make sure that every person who was a Registered voter vote for whichever candidate he or she wanted. Every vote that we received in the mail we made sure that they were valid, then they were counted and tabulated.

A few days later, an otherwise smart Brunette I knew asked me if it was true that our Republican Representative to Washington was fairly elected. She refused to believe it. As he received a ratio of 2-1 in my precinct alone, and a few other precincts were even more Red than Blue, I had to go along with it. She asked me why didn't I do "something about it". Meaning commit voter fraud in favor of us Democrats. Well besides being against Federal Law, I swore to make sure we had an Honest Election. She freaked out. I was called a traitor among other things. I really don't recall anything else she called me. But Traitor does stand out. I haven't seen her since.

I'm hereby sure of two things:
One. The Bush Leaguer won fair and square.
Two. I'm very tired of receiving an E-Mail of the "New Democratic Party Seal", a crying baby every time there is a story somewhere about us Democrats complain about voter fraud. While we have a decent case in Washington State over the Gubernatorial election, we are slowly becoming a laughing stock.

And in case anybody is wondering; I really don't know if I'll become a Official Poll Watcher again. I'm going to have to be paid at least $500 to cover the hassles I got after the election from my fellow Democrats.

[fujiyama]

17. I'm not completely convinced

that there was fraud. That's why I said, there was the POTENTIAL of vote fraud especially in a state like Ohio. While you may not have seen any tampering of any kind in WA state, there have been some irregularities and oddities in OH that are worth looking into.
I could care less about RWers and that picture of the baby crying as our slogan. Fuck them. All this has to be investigated. That's why a recount makes sense.

At the minimum it's vital that all electronic voting machines give us a paper trail.


Ultimately, the outcome of this election is unlikely to change. Bush probably got more votes, which in some ways is more disturbing. But let's not buy into the right wing notion of a mandate. About 49% did NOT vote for Bush. Also, many of the states Bush won are scarcely populated. Remember, land doesn't vote. People do. One more state and Kerry would have won, so basing this on the number of states Bush won really isn't meaningful.

And I applaud you for not commiting vote fraud. I don't want our party to stoop to their level, atleast not in this regard.

[YankeeFan]

20. Unfortunately

I read of a story in Detroit where the tires were slashed on vehicles belonging to Republicans were slashed. The vehicles were going to help get Registered voters to the Polls.

Now I have no problems getting a ride from another political party so you can vote. Who says you have to vote for them? If in order to vote I have to vote for whoever is getting me to the Polls, I'll walk however many miles I have to instead. If we get a ride, try to get them over to Our side. It probably wont happen, but you never know. But if a Democrat is turned to vote Republican...face it...we've earned it.

Us Democrats have to show we have better ideas than any other party out there. We did not do it enough this year. And I'm sorry to say there are many Democrats out there that make me want to vote for somebody else. The former Governor of New Jersey is one of them. He is using his homosexuality to cover up corruption in his State.

Chicago is another area. "Chicago: Vote early, vote often" is a stain on us that isn't going away.

And Tom Dachel (spelling please) just plain lost confidence of the voters of his State. Has anybody here disputed the election there?

[Wind Dancer]

25. YankeeFan,

I'm glad you are convinced * won fair and square, many of the disenfranchised voters may not agree with your conclusion.

[Chipper Chat]

35. You forgot Poland !!!!!!

Duh

[Peter Frank]

10. The lesson to be learned here is to...

...Never underestimate a fool's ability to appeal to other fools!

Never assume freedom. There are always forces which would kill freadom -- now these forces are no longer based abroad.

9/11 has proven that freedom is in the crosshairs of activist ignorants. Bush'war is the result of ignorant activism.

Where have all statesmen gone?

[gandalf]

12. He was more or less elected! It was not a Putsch.

I think in 1942 it would have been near to impossible to organize a complete coup, given the perfectly working Police State.

In the "Weimarer Republik", the predecessor of the Third Reich, important elitist groups did not support democratic ideals.

Basically, what Hitler did when he was "in charge" was no surprise but the end of a longer process the course of which should have been altered much more earlier.

These two points -- elitist groups not supporting democracy, a development towards a visible, dangerous goal -- can perhaps be identified in the US of today as well.

[YankeeFan]

15. That’s More Or Less True

Check what I said in #9.
Basically he was elected the rough equivalent to our Vice President. President Hindenburg was in his 80’s and in failing health. When Hindenburg died Germany quite literally went to Hell.

[gandalf]

32. Not exactly...

Hindenburg was "Reichspräsident", Hitler "Reichskanzler". Responsible for day-to-day-politics was the Kanzler, laws were (normally) made by the Reichstag. The function of the Reichspräsident should have been to represent.

In fact, in the last years of the Weimarer Republik, the Reichspräsident enacted laws if the Reichstag (Parliament) did not agree. Theoretically, he could have enacted laws only in emergency situations.

After Hindeburg died, Hitler took over the job as Reichspräsident as well. But Germany had ceased to be a functioning democracy much earlier.

[SOS]

36. Not a putsch, but never a majority

RUNOFF PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION
APRIL 1932

Hindenburg - Social Democrat
53.0%
Hitler - National Socialist
36.8%
Thaelman - Communist
10.2%

Democrats and Communists got 60.2% in the last free election. Nazis got 36.8%.

In the Reichstag elections of 1932 the Nazi's lost 2 million votes between July and November, dropping from 37.4% to 33%.

Hindenburg appointed Hitler Reichskanzler in January 1933, foolishly assuming the Reichstag could control him. Shortly after the appointment came the "Machtubernahme" and free elections came to a halt.

[TyeDye75]

13. There were youth Movements

Such as the Eidleweiss pirates who protested when they could. However this all came to an end when to leadiny youth movement protesters (Hans and Sophie Scholl) were executed.

[davepc]

16. How do you overthrow someone who disarms the people and shoots dissenters?

[Selatius]

18. The Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto demonstrated that, if only briefly

They used smuggled weapons and fought bravely. They were wiped out though. Molotov cocktails and small arms aren't much against heavy armor, artillery and a disciplined army.

[YankeeFan]

22. You Should Look Up..

The war between the Soviet Union and Finland in 1939/1940. It was called "The Winter War".

Finland kicked Russia's butt and kicked it hard. Finland fought Russia to a draw. In fact that's where the word "Molotov Cocktail" was born. Finland's Defense Minister if I'm not mistaken.

But Winter came to an end and Russian troops carried the day. The aftermath was that later Finland joined Germany during Operation Barbarossa. They called it "The Continuation War".

In the end Finland signed a separate peace with Russia. They also paid very heavy reparations to Russia for their involvement. Russia took entire factories in repartitions. If you can find old copies of Life magazine you can see pictures of the reparations being carried out. The reparations were, I believe, were excessive to the point of being cruel.

[SOS]

37. Molotov

was the Soviet foreign minister.

[davepc]

26. yeah, after being rounded up and concentrated in one geographic location.

I'd point to present day Iraq as demonstration of what a small gaggle of lightly armed men can do to impede the most powerful military in the world with a reasonably de-centralized and spread out resistance movement.

[jesusq]

42. So when do we get started?

The Cuban Revolution was started with 83 men landing in the Sierra Maestra. Of course the reconnaissance technology available to Batista in the late 50's was sufficiently inadequate that that the men could move at night and hide in the mountains, but only 83 men in the original movement? Amazing what you can do if you have the stones.

[robre]

21. An assassination by bomb was attempted

Heres a funny story about william tell and our favorite fascist hatler


http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/swissinfo.html?siteSect=2312&sid=5045610


heres the stuff about the july 20th plot

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_20_Plot

[Karenina]

28. My GUT REACTION

is how ARROGANT Americans appear discussing what Germans shoudda, woudda, coudda done...

[sherilocks]

30. see my post #29 n/t

[UdoKier]

40. Too bad you're not paying attention.

There are a lot of things that cannot be said on DU, so I made this poll...

[tom_paine]

38. The answer is the same for Good Germans and Imperial Amerikan Subjects

HELL YES!

But I do agree with those who have said that by 1942 it was too late (that year, for Imperial Amerika, will likely be 2006 or perhaps as late as the 20-teens for those incurable optimists out there) and that both the Cowardly Germans and the Cowardly Imperial Amerikans (yes, we are included in that assessment -- did YOU take to the streets on Nov. 3rd?) should have move long before that late date of 1942.

[Karenina]

41. January 6, 2005 in D.C. and wherever else Patriots choose to gather

December 12 passed with barely a whimper. If the Stalinesque pomp and circumstance is ALLOWED, unimpeded, to proceed on January 20, kiss your grandchildren goodbye and fasten their and your seatbelts.