Baptists in Florida sneakily set up nativity scene on public property

[Mari333]

Okay, Satanists, Atheists and all other religions and non religions..time to get down their and set up your own symbols..!


If we don't take a stand, there won't be any Christmas or Christ or Christian religion," said Tom Hutto, 69. "We have to take a stand."

First Baptist's Pittman is prepared for whatever might happen next.

She has no problem with other groups getting their own displays.

"When it's their birthday, I think they have a right to do the same as we do," Pittman said. "If wiccans can figure out when it's their savior's birthday, they can do the same."

(Um...note to Ms Pittman...Xmas was originally a pagan holiday, and Wiccans do not celebrate a saviours birth, you uneducated moron..)






http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041217/NEWS/412170353/1039

[ProdigalJunkMail]

1. while it is sneaky...

which law did they break?

theProdigal

[Mari333]

3. You cannot put up religious displays on public property

without consent of the authorities. They have opened a can of worms. Let them have their display. When a Satanist puts up the inverted cross next to the manger, watch how many of the Baptists start to bitch.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

6. that is not true in all jurisdictions

in some places public property may be used at will as long as it is not defaced...now, if you can prove this is somehow defacement of public property, then you have something.

theProdigal

[Mari333]

10. Cant wait to see a Pentagram erected, and soon. n/t

[ProdigalJunkMail]

13. well, that may happen...and the property

must allow it if they allow the other...

theProdigal

The Court has construed the establishment clause to prohibit government from displaying religious symbols by themselves on public property. Current law, however, does allow privately-sponsored religious displays on public property as long as the government does not foster or encourage the belief that government is endorsing religion. Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668 (1984); Allegheny County v. American Civil Liberties Union, 492 U.S. 573 (1989).

[ProdigalJunkMail]

34. well someone stuck a snowman in there

funny as there aren't a whole lot of snowmen in FL these days (at least not real ones). That could be seen as a symbol of crass commercialism and a symbol of the fall of the 'real' meaning of Christmas...is that close enough to a pentagram or do we need more???

theProdigal

[AllegroRondo]

15. Littering

[ProdigalJunkMail]

16. might be a bit tough to establish that precedent n/t

[AllegroRondo]

45. Well, they did leave trash in a public place n/t

[bloom]

23. Exactly - & other people should be able to clean it up if they wish.

These people are just trying to start something.

They will no doubt either feel vindicated if it stays - they win.

And vindicated if anyone makes a fuss - they win again.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

25. they are definitely trying to start something

of that there can be no doubt...but the whole claim of breaking the law thing kind of set me off...if they had broken the law the news story would have been, "Group arrested after illegal construction of Religous dislay on court grounds. Nativity scene removed...more at 10:00"

If the people want to remove it (I am NOT sure about the legalities of that) they should damn well do it in the daylight and with a news crew around so that the people who put this thing up cannot claim it was the government...

theProdigal

[bryant69]

2. It's a publicity stunt!

We want to fight.

You know I am a christian and I don't have too much problem with setting up a manger--but what bugs me is doesn't First Babtist have a lawn? Why couldn't they set it up there. I was driving around my town (live in Tallahassee) and I see no shortage of Churchs where they could set up such scenes--why do they have to have the creche there?

Just to pick a fight?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[ProdigalJunkMail]

4. definitely to make some point

the worst part about it is the whole 'we set it up at night but it wasn't like we were trying to avoid anyone' baloney...i just can't buy that...

theProdigal

[Not_Giving_Up]

33. Yeah, I liked

snip

"We would have done it in the middle of the day, but we did it after our prayer meeting," Pittman said. "We didn't do it to hide from anybody.


Sure, OK, whatever. They just got so moved by the spirit in their prayer meeting that they had to rush right out and put a manger scene where they knew one wasn't supposed to go?? It wasn't that they had the meeting and then went the next day to talk to someone to try to get it approved.

[Mari333]

7. IMHO they are those same people who think the US was

founded on their particular brand of Christianity. It wasnt, but being that they refuse to educate themselves, they are actually biting themselves in the arse by doing this. Their little action leaves the public property wide open for any religious or non religious group to put their own displays on the lawn.
I find it amusing when they bitch after that happens.

[bloom]

19. Publicity stunts

Yesterday, my (fundy) brother sent me a clip of a story about "christians" being arrested/convicted because they were harassing people at a gay parade and wouldn't move peaceably when asked by the police. I ran a search for a mainstream version of the article and all I got was about 40+ different fundy type christian sites - all indignant of course. And 2 gay sites that ran the story.

I decided not even to post it here - to avoid giving them the publicity they so desperately seem to seek and enjoy.

[Bill McBlueState]

5. Why we should support our friends in the red states

I'm not going to tear apart the article bit by bit, but a lot of what is quoted there, and a lot of the subtle bias introduced by the reporter, is an excellent reminder of how good we have it in the blue states, and how fucked up the mentality is in the red states.

Progressives in the red states: I sympathize with the crap you have to put up with, and I respect your ability to live peacefully among such inbreds. It's gotta be tough.

[Mari333]

9. Notcie how Baptist is capitalized but wiccan isnt

and Wicca is a federally recognized US religion.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

28. but you didn't capitalize Pagan...

oh man, you are a bigot...

</sarcasm>

[bloom]

8. I was thinking about symbols for atheists, etc. also

OF course one problem is that without any organization there is no decision making. Maybe we could run a poll here.

I think a circle would be a good symbol for universality. (Could also have spheres).

There is also the infinity symbol which is very nice....

[UdoKier]

11. America is going to hell in a handbasket...

and we're still talking about crap like THIS?

I couldn't care less. Let the people in Lakeland sort it out. I washed my hands of Florida this spring. Done with it!

[stopbush]

18. You're right, and this incident is yet another example of America

going to hell in a handbasket.

Sometimes you choose your battles, other times they're thrust upon you.

[UdoKier]

20. Social security, or a silly display in a Florida hick town...

If I'm picking battles, I'll take Social Security. It actually matters.

Some bible nuts' illegal display will have no impact on the law of the land whatsoever.

[stopbush]

30. Same battle, different skirmish lines.

What's so difficult in seeing that?

[UdoKier]

32. Because it's not a battle.

There is no legal basis for what they are doing, and there is no possibility of their actions changing the law. It's a pathetic, futile gesture on the part of a bunch of bible nuts who are probably hoping to get featured on Dildo Reilly's show.

What they are doing will make absolutely no difference in the greater scheme of things. What's so difficult in seeing that?

[genieroze]

12. Start putting up symbols for Ramadan. eom

[ProdigalJunkMail]

14. it's over...have to wait til next year... N/T

[Bridget Burke]

22. The Muslims aren't big on religous symbolism.

The more orthodox are against any human representation at all. However, I've noticed a few discreet greetings here & there. Ramadan is done for this year. It's a period of atonement; Eid, at the end, is the actual celebration. Being a lunar holiday, sometimes it coincides with the Christmas season more closely.

Actually, the more conservative Protestant churches aren't big on religious symbolism, either. It's sort of (whisper it) Catholic. It's good they're getting over their objections to Popish Idolatry--but they need to decorate their own premises first.

[Bridget Burke]

17. So--why aren't they presenting a Christmas Program?

Here's their area's religion page. All sorts of churches are putting on Christmas programs--but nothing from First Baptist of Bartow.

www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?Date=20041204&Category=NEWS&ArtNo=412040317&Ref=AR

And--even some of the programs offered by the other churches are not all that religious. Nither snowmen & nor christmas trees appear in the Bible.

A Nativity scene can be quite touching--it appeals to my Catholic nostalgia. But it's odd that so many want to present one on public land--but not in their own church.

[DireStrike]

21. Oh no! Those 1 billion christians are gonna dry up and wither away

unless you put out a manger scene in the park NOW!

[UdoKier]

24. By the way, considering how important they claim this Nativity is to them-

You would think they'd have at least erected a PRETTY one. That's the saddest little Nativity scene I've ever seen.

Also, I don't think they broke Florida law. They erected it without permission from the county, which owns the property, and it's up to them whether or not to make a stink about it. They could bulldoze it into the trash, or they could invite all the other religions to erect their own paraphernelia.

[Occulus]

27. flank the thing with pentagrams

and drop a Star of David on the ground in front of it. Better yet, hang it from Mary's finger.

We need to start putting displays from other religions on church lawns, just to make a point.

[bloom]

31. A person could turn it into an art project

it could very easily become a free-for-all since it isn't sanctioned.

Images of the war could be introduced - the Nativity characaters could hold protest signs against Bush*, the war, whatever.

It could be fun.

[morgan2]

41. I'd be a fan of putting up a statue of Darwin

Throw evolution in their faces, kinda like spitting in their face.

[bloom]

29. Seems like what would normally happen with someone

just leaving a bunch of stuff there - would be to clean it up and send them a bill - if you knew who it was who left it.

[Mike Niendorff]

26. Ok, here's how to really make the point:

Don't just set up your own religious (or areligious) symbols alongside theirs. It simply makes it look like a "war of religions", which is exactly what they want.

Do it on church property instead.

At least maybe you can force the debate back on-topic this way, because this way they'll HAVE to argue on a location-basis rather than on a content-basis.

Either that, or just ignore the idiots and focus on the bigger threats that we're facing.


MDN

[tanyev]

35. Yeah, that's just what Jesus would have done.

He was such a sneaky guy. :eyes:

[LibertyLover]

36. Manger in Florida on the courthouse lawn

If I'm reading the article correctly, they were supposed to ask permission to put the manger on the lawn and they decided that if they did that they would be turned down because of church/state issues. So they went ahead and did it without permission - the theory of course being that it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission. They were ordered to come before the county council (I think it's county council) after the holidays to ask permission for the display - which means of course that even if the council says no, the blasted thing is still up over the holidays. On another board I check, several pagans were discussing the possiblity of putting up a pentagram or solar symbol next to it and seeing how long it was before the good members of the First Baptist Church reacted. What is wrong with the lawn of their own church? This sort of thing used to irk me, now it really pisses me off - keep your version of religion in your home and church, temple, synagogue, mosque, ashram or covenstead - where it belongs.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

37. as is noted higher up

the whole point to this 'stunt' is for publicitiy and to compound this whole 'liberals are destroying christmas' nonsense. They want to drive home the conflict in hopes that their point of view will somehow become the accepted point of view. Many of these sorts of folks have been massively emboldened by the gay marriage laws passing recently. They have been told that when the issue was pushed...the religiously correct of them came out on top. So, now, they are going after the separation clause by forcing the issue hoping (and believing) that they will come out on top of that too and remove the barriers that have been erected to keep the state from endorsing a religious point of view.

The best thing to do, in my opinion, would be to ignore them...it is kind of like the crazy advertising in that Simpson's episode...if you don't pay attention to it...it dies...

theProdigal

[bloom]

38. I think they win either way

they win if they get away with it.

they win if they get publicity.


That is why I think the best approach is to turn it into an opportunity for publicity for the anti-war and/or anti-bush* movement. If there is going to be publicity - might as well make it worthwhile.

Have "Mary" hold a Peace sign at the very least.


Maybe could incorpoate something about election fraud... :shrug:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

39. "This family voted...but were their votes counted???"

or put a Kerry/Edwards bumpersticker on the crib???

theProdigal

[bloom]

40. Maybe "This family voted..."

the other one might confuse people into thinking the set-up was by a democrat.


Surely there are some peace groups around with some extra signs they could spare "for Jesus".

[IHeart1993]

42. Put up a nativity display with characters from....

"The Nightmare Before Christmas." If anything, it'll scare them.

[oneold1-4u]

43. Small distractions!

We will see many more! They will be constantly perpetrated and orchestrated by the ignorant followers of this cult of professional political crooks. Don't let your mind wander from what is the important policies being created daily to destroy this country!

[AnIndependentTexan]

44. My take on it - join them at their own game - THIS IS THE WAY WE WIN

For any DU'ers that are near by or want to par-take in this project. If you want to beat them at their own game then we need to make a statement of our own.

Erect another nativity scene next to it. Only this time instead of three wise men put three gay men. Dress baby Jesus all up in gay pride. If they say the gay version has to go then point out that the other version must go as well. After all Gay's celebrate Christmas too. They did say they were open to other religions putting their stuff up as well.