As we raise valid criticisms of Bush, we should also keep in mind

[KlatooBNikto]

the gross violations of human rights that occur in many Islamic countries.Some of these practices are also 'exported' to Western countries. I am talking about two specific practices that have been established over the years:

1. The denial of the most basic right of mothers from Western countries to have any right to visit or even see their own children after their marriages end in divorce.We are all familiar with American women whose marriages to Iranian or Saudi men end in divorce.The children of such marriages are removed by the fathers to their countries which do not recognize the rights of women. This is part of the greater problem in these countries of denying equal rights to women.We need to be chamipons of the rights of these women.Otherwise, all our cries about Bush and his minions will ring hollow.

2. The denial of rights to women from poorer countries in Asia ( Phillippines, Thailand, India, Bangladesh) who are brought in to these richer Arab countries as household help and denied any rights at all, many being reduced to indentured servitude. Many cases have also come to light where some rich Arab households have brought these women with them to the U.S. and continued the practice of indentured servitude in our country. The most notorious case was that of a Saudi Prince's wife who pushed her Indonesian maid down a flight of stairs causing fractures in many parts of her body and claimed immunity from prosecution because he has diplomatic status!.

I believe that we need to be at the forefront of these struggles for human rights in these Arab countries before our voices on Bush and his gang can be given credibility.Our party, after all, stands as the voice of the powerless. There are none less powerful than these unfortunate American and Asian women who stand against the orthodoxy of Islamic religious beliefs.

[eridani]

1. Shirin Ebadi, 2003 Nobel Peace Prize laureate

is a feminist human rights lawyer in Iran, not a very fun place to live for someone with her beliefs. There are people like her in most Islamic countries, and if we care about them I say we go through NGOs to help them and keep the US military the fuck out of their faces.

[KlatooBNikto]

2. I am not talking about a military solution to this problem. I think we

need to raise a stink about this instead of keeping quiet.We need to make our own people aware of these gross abuses.

[cornermouse]

3. We are aware of the abuses.

Do you consider a war to be a suitable cure for them? Do you think we can really bring about change if we use force?

[malaise]

4. What's the line

about taking the beam from your own eye...

[cornermouse]

5. I'm asking a question. You might try answering.

Do you think the Middle East countries will accept social change by force?

And if you use force, is the change a real change of heart or just temporary necessity?

[tx_dem41]

18. Would slavery have ended without the Civil War? n/t

[HysteryDiagnosis]

6. War cannot change the belief system of a people... it can only force them

to hate you even more for installing a dictator in place of their formerly democratically elected leader.

I don't want to sound as if I don't care about the plight of these women... I do... but in order to justify a military solution to this problem... (there is none btw) first shrub would have to show how most of these women have become "terrorists" and have plotted to destroy Amurka... and second he would have to prove their undying support of Al Qaida and Osama been Forgotten.

I'm sure KKKarl could pull if off... I know, he could give Murdoch a call, shouldn't take more than a couple of days for the sheeple to buy into it.

[gulogulo]

12. "War cannot change the belief system of a people"

hmmm. Germans? Japanese?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

13. Hmmmm Civil War?? Lived in the south lately?? I do. Not much changed

in many peoples' minds.

[OnlyInAmerica]

17. That's bull

I lived on the Mississippi Gulf Coast for most of my life. It is just like any other tourist area with beaches. The majority of people are decent people without prejudice. Of course there are some who are racist, but there are racists in every city, in every state of the union.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

19. I digress, you are correct. I am sure there are less prejudiced persons

today in the south than there were in the past. I happen to have had the pleasure of meeting too many of them.

[OnlyInAmerica]

20. Quite alright

Even though I no longer live in Mississippi I get a little tired of people who have never lived in the South constantly bashing the majority of Southerners as racists when in fact the opposite is true. That would be like me saying all those people in the New York/New Jersey area are rude, inconsiderate a-holes who wouldn't lift a finger to help their neighbor. It may apply to a small minority, but I'm sure most of those Yankees are great people! ;)

[freeplessinseattle]

14. totally different. when people's own govt attempts to influence beliefs

it is much much more effective than if another country's govt does, especially by force. for instance, look at the US, this war and current leadership have influenced people to lessen their valuation of civil rights, and increase their prejudice of certain people, within and outside the US. other countries have no bearing on *most* Americans, for instance, most of the rest of the world has no respect for * and is against the war, but this has no effect on vast numbers of people who are gullible to their own govt's mantra, and serves to actually increase "patriotism": "We are number one" "Don't mess with Texas" FU kind of attitude. now being invaded and violated by a foreign prescence is a completely different thing. completely.

[gulogulo]

29. I see, so you're saying that

the war didn't change Germans/Japanese belief systems, but the governments that were put in place by Americans did? I believe US was in charge in Germany for quite a few years and in Japan for *decades*. The local governments that were in place during that time was completely subservient to Americans, "puppet" governments if you will. So saying that those governments change the populations' belief systems is the same as saying that Americans did it.

So saying that "war did not change their beliefs, change in government did" is the same as the old saying "it's not the fall that kills ya, it's the sudden stop". Technically it is true, but it is a tautology - the change of government would not have come without a war.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

15. The beliefs of the people didn't change... the belief their govt held,

that they could dominate and or beat several other countries, both militarily and economically was. That's all that changed, the people remained the same people... civilians caught up in some madman's nightmare scenario of greatness, or of being called by God to do his work.... deja vu.

[gulogulo]

27. I disagree.

"The beliefs of the people didn't change... the belief their govt held,"?

So Germans still believe they are a super-race, that Jews should be exterminated, that Slavs are "untermenschen" and that mentally ill people should be euthanized?

You think that was NOT what people believed in Germany pre- and during-WWII? It's too easy to blame it on the "government". That government was *enthusiatically* supported by the Germans at the time and those beliefs were held by millions of Germans. It is shameful that you are trying to hide that in order to make a political point.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

31. I do not believe we should be in Iraq killing Iraqis... millions of like

minded Americans feel the same way.. felt that way before the invasion... granted millions of Americans support the moron who led us into this mess.... hell, half of the country believes Saddam launched 911... so it is the work of the govt, feeding lies to the media, which then feeds it to the masses, (the unthinking masses) which creates the matrix in which some countries find themselves.

The 50 million or so people who voted to fire GW do not hate the Iraqis ... as do many many Americans who know no better. I was talking to a young woman at work... and her take on the ME was that we should have nuked it... very flippantly very inconsequentially... just said, that it would have all been over a long time ago had we just done the right thing and nuked it. I suppose that would not constitute a holocost in your view... but it mine it fits quite nicely.

[gulogulo]

37. Your post is a non-sequitur

I was responding to your statement that "War cannot change the belief system of a people". I showed you an example to the contrary. You repond to me with "I do not believe we should be in Iraq". How exactly does that follow?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

41. 60 PERCENT OF THE WAFFEN SS WERE NON-GERMANS

I didn't realize the support Hitler and the Nazis had been given....this is a hard thing to believe... and it wasn't only Germans who supported him.. Henry Ford was a friend, (Mr. Ford had an anti_semitic newspaper in circulation in the states) and much of Europe also fell into his mad schemes.... how wierd is that... I stand deeply corrected.... I need to read this entire article and more to understand how this war all came to be.

http://www.white-history.com/hwr64iii.htm
Hitler was not only popular in Germany: many Europeans of other nationalities openly supported the Nazi ideology and volunteered, either as workers or as military servicemen and women, to actively assist the German war effort.

This support for Nazism was widespread: sweeping across the European continent from Britain, Ireland, France, the Low Countries, Scandinavia, Eastern Europe right into Russia itself. Of the more famous pro-National Socialist movements with large followings: the British Union of Fascists and National Socialists, the Francistes in France, the Rexist party in Belgium, the Dutch National Socialist Bund, the Iron Guard in Romania and the Russian National Liberation Army, amongst others.



Above: In France, anger at the pre-war Jewish Prime Minister Leon Blum’s repression of democracy and banning of French nationalist groups saw a dramatic rise in support for the Franciste movement after the German occupation of France in 1940. Here, a Franciste rally at the Velodrome d’Hivier in Paris, attended by thousands.

Below: The British Union of Fascists and National Socialists rally in Earl's Court, London, 1936 - one of the largest public meetings ever held in that country.


Below: BUFNS leader Oswald Mosely addresses an open air meeting in Limehouse, London.


Below: Foreign labor in the Reich: Millions of Europeans voluntarily migrated to Germany during the war to work for the German armaments and other industries while large numbers of Germans themselves were called up to military service. Here, labor delegates representing nineteen nations visit Berlin, 1941. Visible signs in the picture show representatives from Romania, Belgium, the Ukraine and Serbia.


Contrary to post-war propaganda, the Nazis were not seen by all Europeans as invaders, but often as welcome allies by elements of the resident populations.

[Darranar]

21. Their government was changed, not their belief system. n/t

[gulogulo]

26. Really?

"Their government was changed, not their belief system"?

So Germans still believe they are a super-race, that Jews should be exterminated, that Slavs are "untermenschen" and that mentally ill people should be euthanized?

You think that was NOT people's belief system in Germany? You really don't know much about that period then.

[Darranar]

28. Correlation is not causation. The fascist governments...

were removed by the war. The belief systems changed too, eventually, but the war did not magically adjust people's views.

[gulogulo]

30. being totally and utterly defeated

in a war, when you belief system is based on your racial superiority, tends to radically challenge that belief system. You may disagree, but it is true.

[tabasco]

36. Comparing WWII to Iraq is as stupid as it gets.

There are no parallels. In WWII, we went to war against aggressor nations who wanted to rule the world. We won the war with WORLDWIDE support and the defeated nations were forced to conform to the WORLDWIDE slapdown.

Now we are the aggressor nation, acting virtually alone, under WORLDWIDE condemnation, invading a sovereign nation who did not attack us. How is that comparable to the situation in WWII? I suppose this is the drivel that war expert Rush Dopehead Limbaugh peddles to the feeble-minded.

INFANTRY VET

[gulogulo]

38. I was not comparing WWII to Iraq

I was responding to the statement "War cannot change the belief system of a people". I showed where war could and did "change the belief system of a people".

[mutius]

7. Bush

Bush lies to the American people. His administration keeps us in the dark. The rich control the media and keep us in the dark. bush takes jobs away sends them over seas in the dark. bush said, "a dictatorship would be a lot easier only if I were the dictator". People in this country are denied health care and suffer in the dark. if you speak your mind about certain things you are anti American so keep it in the dark. bush, patriot act can lock people up with out right to council and keep them in the dark. 154 in Texas executed guilty or not, didn't matter in the dark. bush take our kids sends them to war we never see the flags or casket coming back. all kept in the dark. the Bible says that evil people do everything in the dark, because their works are dark. Christ said I am the light of the world, not just the light of United States. can't we say God bless the world. Joy to the world the Lord is come. Let your light so shine before men that they know you are a child of God. this Administration is has real moral values.

[annabanana]

8. amen

There is no reason NOT to fight this man and his administration.

[MadHound]

9. And gee, these same types of abuses, and worse

Happen in the US and other Western countries every single day, perpetrated by "good" Christian men. Children of Christian divorcees are siezed, and taken away from their mothers to other parts of this country, or even other countries by Christian men everyday, probably in greater numbers than those who have Muslim fathers.

The US is has the largest trafficking in sex slaves than any other country. These women are held as virtual slaves, denied all rights. All by fine Christian men.

Perhaps we need to take the log from our own eye, eh friend? And as far as credibility vis-a-vis the Bush gang, well most anybody who hasn't been to prison is more credible than Bush, what with his illegal, immoral war. What, you think we should halt our efforts to stop it because of some percieved moral shortcoming? Not a good move friend. If we had done that back in the sixties, we would still be fighting the Vietnam war. We must protest this war at every turn, no matter what.

[KlatooBNikto]

16. No, The abuses of women from poor countries in Western societies

are not allowed to happen as blatantly as in Arab countries. We have strong laws against indentured servitude. Granted that there are abuses of women sold into sexual slavery but those are by people who are clearly the criminal element in our societies. In Arab countries the abuse of these servant women are sanctioned at the highest levels of society.Not one voice has been raised against these practices either by Islamic clergy or the Emirs or Sheiks of these countries in many decades.

I do not believe that a society like ours that clearly has taken steps to remedy these abuses is morally equivalent to Islamic Socities.All I want to see is an initiative on the part of Arab/Islamic societies themselves to correct these problems.When I do not see such initiatives and I hear cries about American abuses of Arabs/Muslims in this country more than a little hypocrisy is involved.

[demnan]

10. When we had a strong-minded articulate first lady

who traveled the world in support of woman's rights we were making a stand about these issues. But as we are killing men, women and children in Iraq we have no moral authority to stand for these very worthy issues any more.

[jellybelly]

33. So true and now

America fights for human rights only in countries where the government is opposed to us.

[HuckleB]

11. True.

However, we must remember that Bush has done nothing to work to change these issues. In fact, he has been mum on the matter, for all intensive purposes, as human rights are not his reason for going to Iraq. The reality remains: The US worked with other western powers to subvert democratic experimentation in the middle east in order to put into power despots that could be controlled by the western powers. These despots are the reason such abuses occur. So we have no one to blame but ourselves, and Bush and his family and friends have been the leaders all along, when it comes to the policies and actions that have led to these ends.

[sweetheart]

22. You cannot reconcile feminism and neo-liberalism

Going about the world setting other folks to our "superior" standards
of human rights is neo-liberalism. There is this marketing which
you are repeating, that by neo-liberalism, we can liberate the women
of the earth. By overthrowing the taliban, afgan women are now free,
and that by overthrowing saddam, iraqi women are now free.

Nothing could be farther from the truth. Neoliberism itself is the
antithesis of feminism. It is paternal hubris embodied in mental
ideas foisted upon the world. If you want to truly empower women,
dismantle the military empire, and put the money towards the poor,
which is overwhelmingly female. By econoically empowering women
at the grass roots, political power and change naturally bubble up
from below.

So whilst some militarists like bush claim to be supporting feminism,
real supporters are those that empower the poor, with sound economic
policy.

A series of carrot-stick trade policies with middle eastern nations
to show progress in womens rights and poverty erradication, clean
water, and whatnot, would be far far far more successful at achieving
the noble ends of womens liberation.

[KlatooBNikto]

23. I agree that our society can help by providing economic incentives

to correct the situation.But far more important, in my opinion, is a change that has not yet occurred in islamic societies. That change is the social stigma that should be attached to such practices within these Islamic societies. I have not seen those changes in many decades of these prevalent abuses.

For Islamic societies to cry foul about American abuses either here in America or in countries that the U.S. has invaded without at the same time acknowledging the prevalence of these abuses is not acceptable to me.

After havng spent sometime in Arab countries on business in the seventies, I can tell you that the blatant abuses of black people in the Sudan, for example,would evoke cries of outrage and rightly so in our own society.

Yes, I agree that this is an issue that cannot be solved by military force. But I see the lack of a moral leadership on the part of Arab societies to correct these things.

It is also good for us to remember that many slave traders in the past have been Arabs.

[sweetheart]

25. Removing the props to the status quo

The US has lost its moral right to complain about abuse of women,
the poor and enslavement. It practices all of the above, as a cultural
institution of its criminal government. The torture at abu grahib
pretty much sealed that in the world's collective consciousness.

If we really want to bring about an end to what you rightly point out
as evil, we must "walk the walk" and cut all support and affiliation
with national governments that eschew womens equality. As long as
we support dictatorship pakistan, racist israel, dictatorship egypt,
and monarchy saudi arabia, there is little moral ground to complain.

Instead, we talk a load of crap, putting nothing in to practice except
murderous war killing policies for graft and repression.

THe reason that arab societies are so backward is that we have
been helping them stay that way, by militarily and socially accepting
their evil-parts as the status quo. But as long as we accept that
our own nazi criminal government is the status quo, there is no
ground for change.

Slavery, in raw numbers is greater today than at any previous time
in human history. Claiming to sort this out, even indirectly, by
murdering 100,000 civlians to steal their oil, whilst 3.5 million
people are slaughtered in eastern congo, has taken the moral thunder
and turned it in to a perverted whisper.

[robbedvoter]

24. Fundamentalists of the world, unite!

I remember a certain summit where our fundies and theirs agreed on horrible stuff...2001?

[ckramer]

32. Disagree.

You can't improve their human rights by KILLING them.

That's exactly what Bush has done.

Bush = War = Death

[KlatooBNikto]

34. I do not say that we have to kill in order to produce change.As I noted,

the lack of any initiatives in the past about these blatant violations of the rights of poor women from other Asian countries and American women seeking justice, makes me wonder if we are not being a little too harsh on ourselves and let these abuses in Arab countries get a free pass. I will not take second place to anyone in my condemnation of this War on Iraq but I also want us to be just as vociferous in speaking for the poor women who are abused from the day they accept assignments in Arab households.

[ckramer]

35. USA is not qualified to criticize others as long as there are

Homelessness, hunger and poverty in this country.

The government should fix our own problems first before opening its big mouth.

[Sara Beverley]

39. Islamics don't "pretend" to be for women's rights. The US does.

Being evil is one thing. Being evil and calling it good is another.

[KlatooBNikto]

40. Wrong.The women who go to Middle Eatern countries are there as

household help.They are not drawn from the local societies. They have every right as foreigners to demand the rights that are universally given to foreigners in these societies. The mistreatment of these poor women comes because they are poor, they are helpless and afraid to lose the incomes that would go toward supporting their families back home.