Why is it okay to make Xmas a political issue?

[HEyHEY]

Okay I'm not a christian or anything. But this crap that's going on where we actually debate how we can wish someone a pleasant holiday season is a load of shit.

If it's ramadan and I see ramadan decorations in a store somewhere I'm not gonna get uppity about it. In fact if I did I'd be called a bigot.

North America has a high amount of Christians so naturally xmas will be very visible. And if they wanna say "Merry Xmas" to each other WHO GIVES A FUCK? I sure as hell don't.

It's THEIR religion and THEY can say whatever they want about it.

If you have that much of a problem with christmas than lock yourself inside and forget about it instead of telling people how to practice their religion.

[Walt Starr]

1. Problem is, they want me to wish them a Merry Christmas

and I won't. Isn't my religion, I won't do it.

[HEyHEY]

2. Have you actually had them say

"No...make it Merry Christmas or I won't accept it."

If that has happened I can see getting pissed. Though...I'm not Jewish and I wish my Jewish Friends a Happy Hannaukah.

[Walt Starr]

4. Actually, yes I have

not this year. It didn't work, but I'm sure I increased their blood pressure.

[HEyHEY]

5. Well yeah..THEN I'd throw down

[phylny]

8. For the record, I'm a Christian, and I

don't want, or demand, for anyone to wish me a Merry Christmas if they don't want to.

Oh, and I hate generalizations, too.

[Walt Starr]

9. Sorry, talking about the fundies who are making this an issue

Like O'Liar, Fartwell, and Robem$ome.

:shrug:

[phylny]

12. Fair enough!

I honestly don't get why people care and get all offended by "Happy Holidays." I mean, really - WHY would I want a Jew to wish me Merry Christmas? I can easily say, "Happy Chanukah" to someone who's Jewish, because their holiday does not go "against" my beliefs, but I fully know that Christmas is absolutely against a Jew's beliefs. What would I hope to gain? Wouldn't it be a rather "false" sentiment? Yes, I have Jewish friends who might say, "I hope you have a great Christmas with your family," but I have others that don't. It's okay with me.

I enjoy diversity in people. A client of mine is Muslim, and we have the BEST discussions about religion, about what she believes and what I believe. During Ramadan, she explained about fasting, and about how they need to "feel" what the poor feel, and the hunger, and to do good works during that time especially.

The other day, she asked, "Why is Easter so important to you guys?" When I explained that we believe that Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected on Easter Sunday, she said, "Oh, that makes sense now! We believe that Jesus existed, and that he will come again, but that he wasn't resurrected from the dead - we think Allah switched the bodies, and that Jesus is alive and in Heaven."

Bowl me over, I had NO idea they even acknowledged Jesus!

Anyway, I digress, but I like the way our country is SUPPOSED to operate - that people have the freedom to practice their religion as they see fit, and even NOT to practice religion at all.

[jellybelly]

31. ..

Muslims believe in the virgin birth of Jesus and that he is a prophet closer to God then Muhammad. They are muslims because the last prophet, Muhammad, completed the lineage. They also believe Muhammed was prophesied to come to earth by Jesus himself. They believe in Jesus's divinity more than some Christians I know. It's nice to now true Islam from an actual muslim and not from the television set.

[Bush was AWOL]

3. Agree

and people that are making noise over Carolers or Nativity scenes need to get a life.

[Maple]

6. It's when you say

'happy holidays' and get lectured on the 'Jesus is the reason for the season' crap.

It's when taxpayers money from everybody gets used for a christian nativity scene at the public town hall.

It's when you celebrate Hannukkah, or Saturnalia, or Solstice and are called a heretic, 'who would have been burned at the stake in an earlier (hint: more enlightened) time' that it gets irritating.

People can believe whatever they wish...but they shouldn't be trying to force it on everyone else.

[HEyHEY]

10. Couldn't agree more

When it comes to public funds and stuff I agree. It's not bad in Canada luckily. But the other day in court I was shocked when a man of East Indian decent had to swear on a bible. THought it's an obviously out dated tradition.

[lgardengate]

7. Wow! Around here this takes guts...

I actually agree (basicly) but i would say it different. I just don't understand the big deal about a simple thing like "Merry Christmas" or why non belivers want to slam Christians for saying it or for celebrating "in the snow with a manger scene" etc.You would think Christians were pissing on someone elses religion.



I know i'll get flamed for this. Oh Well.... Flame awayO8)

[Maple]

11. Nobody cares what Christians do or believe

What they do NOT like is Christians forcing their 'belief' on others.

Christians ARE pissing on the beliefs of others.

They always have, and finally the 'others' are getting annoyed about it.

[InfoMinister]

13. How Is It Forcing a Religion On Other People?

It appears to me that it's just another form of discrimination and hypocrisy. Things that people here claim to be against. You're just doing the exact opposite and thinking it's ok. How about just treating everyone with respect and learning to appreciate other people's beliefs? Getting pissed off at the Christian religion isn't going to solve anything.

[HEyHEY]

14. I don't think I am sure of what you mean maple

Are you talking in schools and stuff?

BEcause just naturally on the street I'd bet most other religion really don't care about xmas.

[lgardengate]

17. I was quoting another post that said

we should be saying "Holy Christmas" or "Blessed Christmas" if we were "Truly" celebrating Christs birth,and that Christians were basicly stupid for puting manger scenes in the snow. (no snow in the middle east.


I don't see how in the world you can say Christians are pissing on others religions.We respect Jews and there Holidays (i have celebrated some with a Jewish friend and her congration).Some christians are critical of muslims but Only since 911 and yes,that raised peoples emotions. Personaly, i have no problem with peaceful muslims and there faith.I see only Christians that many seem to think it is just fine to slam,hate,and say any kind of evil,nasty,hateful stuff about.Tolerance seems to be for every group but one.

[InfoMinister]

16. It's Just Discrimination Going The Other Way

A few extremists like Pat Robertson and others are trying to shove their religion down other people's throats so they want to do the exact same thing and shove their anti-relgion down Christian's throats.

[seaj11]

19. NO ONE is anti-Xmas because they are anti-religion.

This anti-religion crap really pisses me off. "They" aren't for banning Christmas. They're for equal representation. If you want to put up a religious display at a courthouse (an ideally nonbiased house of justice), put one up for Christmas, Hanukkah, Yule, Ramadan, Kwanzaa...just as long as there's more than one religion represented.

[InfoMinister]

20. It's A Mix, Some People Are Doing It Because They're Against Religion

"NO ONE is anti-Xmas because they are anti-religion."

Yes, some people are. Not everyone but there are some people that are just pissed off at the Christian religon in general. Some people here are going about this in the worst way possible and by the hardcore Conservatives bringing up this issue they know that they can use statements by that portion of people to further alienate people from the Democratic party.

[seaj11]

24. Can you name some people

who want to ban Christmas because they don't like Christianity? Christianity isn't to dislike. Its holidays aren't to dislike. The people who give Christianity a bad name are to dislike.

[InfoMinister]

29. You Have To Be Kidding Me!

If you don't already see these people every single day of your life you haven't been paying attention at all. There are entire bands dedicated to the death of Christianity. Subcultures and even mainstream displays that are there only to anger Christians. Even the ones that are pretty moderate and don't try to push anyone around about religious issues. It's a reaction to the religious extremists out there that are doing this Merry Christmas boycott in the first place. The problem is that the Democratic party has been connected with this subculture which is giving it bad PR with mainstream America.

I'm also going to point out some major flaws in the idea of "fairness" that people meaning good are trying to push. Some people's ideas of fairness related to religion aren't really fair and in some cases Christians have been singled out which has caused a lot of the religious right to manufacture these political issues to motivate their base to vote Republican. In some cases kids have been kicked out of school because of wearing religious apparel or even praying at lunch. Robertson and Falwell have been able to latch onto those controversies to further their agenda and get these people to feel there is a full blown attack on religion in our school orchestrated by the left.

[seaj11]

32. I've been paying attention,

and no, I don't see any such "bands." If you'd like to perceive the ACLU and such as being "dedicated to the death of Christianity," then that's up to you. The bad PR for Democrats comes from the Republicans.

[seaj11]

43. Sorry, I thought we were talking about politics.

You meant MUSIC bands. Music bands aren't attacking Christmas either!

[Runcible Spoon]

39. *snarf*! "entire bands dedicated to the death of xtianity"

didn't know Danzig even got play anymore! :evilgrin:

[MADem]

15. Because if we are griping about Nativity Scenes

...in the town square, we AREN'T talking about the DEAD IN IRAQ. The coffins, the bodies, the torn-up children who volunteered out of pure patriotism, the ones who went because it was either that or part-time with no health benefits at Mickey D's...

Talk about worship of the invisible being in the sky, and how some people get irritated about it, and it inflames emotions. Funny how none of these fuckers who get so damned upset about not having their stupid idols and symbols on pretentious, outrageous display do not show the same degree of consternation over the deaths of our loved ones over in the sandbox.

It's a canard. Everything on the news nowadays is, with few exceptions.

[ET Awful]

18. The problem is that the uber-Christians are trying to organize

boycotts of stores where employees have the audacity to say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas."

You have wingnut radio talkshow hosts trying to say that liberals are trying to ban Christmas for supporting the right of people to say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas."

I could care less if someone wants to wish me a Merry Christmas, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let anyone dictate whether or not and how I should return the sentiment.

[Borgnine]

28. Bingo.

That's the problem right there. I can't believe the right-wing is trying to make an issue of this, but they are.

[InfoMinister]

30. I Think Some Are Bothered By The Reaction

Yeah, plenty of us don't agree you should boycott because of that. However, on the first thread I saw about this people were saying people shouldn't say Merry Christmas at all to people. I think that's what the first poster in this thread is reacting to.

Some posters were basically saing, "I'm not Christian! You shouldn't celebrate your religion! Stop saying Merry Christmas to everyone." Last time I checked this country had freedom of religion and people were able to express that faith if they wanted to. Besides that Christmas is also a commerical holiday and other countries celebrate it as just that. There's no reason why so many people should get up in arms about that and I find it absolutely nuts that some people here are actually doing just that and reacting in the way they're doing. No wonder the Democratic party is losing some ground this time. It appears to me like the tactics these boycotters are using are going to work if people continue to have an attitude that is going to alienate a large portion of Americans. Boycotting people in order to encourage Christmas will have a more positive reaction than people actually denouncing the celebration of Christmas. If you want to be taken seriously don't spread hatred toward the celebration of Christmas. That will be the worst mistake you can possibly make. Spin this in a more positive light to show how ridiculous the boycott is by attempting to embrace the holidays this season in some degree and painting them as Scrooges who are ruining the holiday cheer.

[jayctravis]

21. There seem to be some issue with Christmas freaks this year...

...I posted yesterday about a customer service call I received from a man who was *angry* that the company I work for says "happy holidays" instead of "merry christmas". His logic was that christmas was a national holiday and the others weren't, so we're not supposed to be inclusive or something.

[neebob]

22. Because now that they've got their majority

and their mandate and everything, they have to invent issues. Merry Christmas, happy holidays - like either one really means anythng anymore. It's just a seasonal replacement for "have a nice day."

[AliciaKeyedUp]

27. No, it's not "Have a nice day"

It's important to many people. That you believe it is equivalent to have a nice day is part of the problem.

Only a few years ago, "Merry Christmas" was the norm. Quite obviously around here it is not. Who changed that? Why?

The are doing what so many here advocate often, they are boycotting businesses they don't agree with.

[neebob]

34. What?

It's a problem that I believe it's "merry Christmas" is like "have a nice day"?! Please explain.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

35. You are underestimating the importance of what it means

That goes to the very heart of what is going on. Many around here seem to totally misunderstand what religion means to people.

Saying "Merry Christmas" IS important to millions of Americans. It isn't just a throwaway phrase. It actually has meaning. It is the celebration of the birth of Christ. It is a time of joy. It is a time of giving. Of family.

No, it is not "Have a nice day."

[neebob]

37. Okay

I'll try to notice the religious sincerity oozing out of people saying, "Merry Christmas." Did I mention it doesn't bother me? No, I didn't. But thanks, you may have completely turned Christmas around for me.

[Runcible Spoon]

40. and SINCE it is not a "throwaway phrase"...

non-believers and believers of other faiths shouldn't feel guilt tripped into saying it, since then it would be cheapened, right? Just trying to figure out exactly what you are advocating here...

[Bridget Burke]

41. Please pay some attention to the Dominionists

And their friends, the Christian Reconstructionists. They cooked up this whole controversy & are using the more gullible & credulous believers to spread it.

Read this & let me know what you think:
www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/DirectoryRiseOfDominionismInAmerica.html

[haele]

45. Merry Christmas was the norm?

I think you mean "Where I lived and went to church, Merry Christmas was the norm..."

Where I've lived, except for a few places, "Merry Christmas" and "Happy Holidays" were equally the norm - even in the US, there are places that tend to have a lot more non-Christians - or even different types of Christians (where "Christmas" is just another day on the holy calender and Easter is more important in terms of symbolism) to share a civic compact with.

My family and I always say "Happy Holidays" as a matter of politeness to everyone. Because when we meet you at the store, we don't know (or care) if you have a green-man tree, a star, a nativity scene, a hobby-horse, or a menorah on your lawn. All we mean to do is share a bit of celebratory joy in an otherwise potentially bleak season with everyone.
Y'know, almost every culture has some sort of midwinter festival with a spiritual bent to it. No matter what is being celebrated - the sun returning and the days growing longer, a new year/old year birthing issue, a celebration of a deliverance - there's something going on.

Is being joyful in the tolerance of others or being inclusive of other's beliefs the equivalent to oppression to any particular culture? Does pointing out that "hey, we're celebrating too" mean we're prejudiced against the majority celebrants"

Y'know - I have yet to hear of any recognized public organization that says "get rid of the Christ in Christmas". (maybe a few radical wackjobs - but other than their noise, they have no power)
Even that demon of the Right Wing noise machine and other reactionary organizations, the ACLU, has consistently supported various Christian individual's rights to worship and celebrate the way they wish in their own circles of influence - the home, church charities, the church itself,etc.
I have heard the ACLU and other organizations saying "you shouldn't use taxpayer-provided funding to promote any particular religion above all others or to provide for extra-legal considerations in a public setting." But that's not the same as saying "you can't celebrate Christmas". It's just that with the price of utilities and policing the way they are, a Nativity scene or diorama can be expensive to maintain for the obligatory month on civic budget. Also, every year - as has happened for centuries in places where churches have not had close control over those dioramas - some jerky teenager decides to make peer points by stealing the Baby Jesus and/or decapitating "wise men". That's not only more of a budget strain trying to repair/replace them, that's far more sacrilegious than not having a Nativity Scene in the first place.

Anyway - Happy Holidays to you and everyone else reading this forum, no matter what your religious or non-religious bent may be.


Haele

[Bridget Burke]

23. The "Christian" extremists are behind the whole issue.

An old theme of theirs is "Christianity Under Attack". It's morphed to "Christmas Under Attack". Here's one of the editorials:

www.cwfa.org/articles/5040/CFI/misc/

The website is Concerned Women for America, belonging to Beverly LaHaye, wife of Tim (co-writer of the "Left Behind" series). The Bob Jones University educated couple is high in the Dominionist movement--the truly scary group that has politicized religion in recent years. They're good at pushing their "points" to other Christians & gullible media.

They are not complaining that nobody lets them say "Merry Christmas"--they're angry that some people dare use other greetings.

[InfoMinister]

25. It's All A Load of BS Meant To Get Reactions From Dems

Once they have some editorials or comments made by Democrats about this they can twist them and spread them around Conservative news sites and Christian TV shows to manipulate people into believing all Democrats are devil worshipers.

[Stinky The Clown]

26. It is NOT okay to make Christmas an issue

And we are NOT the ones who are doing it. The religious extremists are doing it to make us look bad and to engage us in a debate we can't win because of the way they framed it. Any Dem spokesperson who engages in this in ANY way should be shot as a traitor and then disavowed until no one has any doubt he is NOT speaking for us.

The extremists are absolutely brilliant at framing the debates in ways we can never win.

[Cogito ergo doleo]

33. Corporations not Dems doing this

I always wonder where and how these wedge issues (liberal bashing campaigns) begin. It's not as though Dem leadership gets up and makes an announcement that beginning in 2004, the greeting of Merry Christmas will now be changed to Happy Holidays, yet these politically correct issues are laid at the feet of Dems for no other reason than to divide our country.

In this case, it's with corporations responding to complaints of "customers on both ends of the political spectrum," according to an article in the LA Times:

"A major shift took place in the 1990s, when corporations became sensitive to complaints of customers on both ends of the political spectrum, said Russell Sway, international president of the Institute of Store Planners, an Atlanta-based association of design and merchandising specialists.

"On the one hand, you have a board of directors who's yelling at you for doing anything that offends anyone. On the other hand, you have this group that's yelling at you for commercializing a religious holiday," Sway said. "

Yahoo/LATimes:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&u=/latimests/20041218/ts_latimes/thisseasongreetingsareatissue&printer=1

[seaj11]

44. Exactly. It's the corporations.

Wedge issue=liberal bashing campaign. Too true.

[kayell]

36. I have absolutely no problem with someone celebrating Christmas

in any manner that they see fit. I have a very large problem with someone trying to force their beliefs and way of celebration on me.

I have not seen anyone objecting to someone saying Merry Christmas, although I've seen some who think it a bit rude that a Christian would say this to someone that they know is Jewish, or some other belief. What I have seen is serious objection to those Christians who want to force others to say "Merry Christmas" rather than Happy Holidays, or whatever.

[mmonk]

38. It's all ballyhooed

and made a issue because some political and church figures are trying to change laws and such under the canard Christianity is under attack in this country. Create a faux problem and exploit it seems to be the plan.

[ScaRBama]

42. I've worked in the public for many years.....

and have not taken part in Christmas for 25+ years. When people say I hope you have a Merry Christmas,I always thank them and say I hope you have one also. There is nothing wrong with choosing to be polite and sharing a smile as you say it. Who cares what labels people hang on a certain day,it's all about being kind and respectful.