"Christians have been..discriminated against in showing their faith"

[Bluebear]

ROSSFORD, Ohio -- The public high school attended by the atheist leader who won the national ban on requiring prayer in schools has told a Christian rock band it can't play in a school assembly.

Since this week's decision from Rossford High School, members of the band Pawn have been interviewed on national conservative radio talk shows, and a band member and his father are to be interviewed on the Fox News Channel cable network on Monday. (ed: this fact is news how?)
<snip>

Atheist leader Madalyn Murray O'Hair, a 1936 Rossford graduate, filed a lawsuit in Baltimore that led the U.S. Supreme Court 1963 ruling banning required prayer and Bible-reading in public schools.

"It seems like Christians have been somewhat discriminated against in showing their faith in the public schools," said Pawn's lead singer, Travis Montgomery, a 1995 Rossford graduate.

http://www.onnnews.com/Global/story.asp?S=2706638

[JaneDoughnut]

1. Banning REQUIRED prayer

Sounds like a pretty sound judgement to me. I'm OK with anyone practicing their religion however they want to, even publicly, as long as I'm not required to participate. The super-sensitive atheists who don't like Xmas trees need to get over it, and the super-sensitive Christians who don't like secular music need to get over it.

[Bluebear]

3. I personally don't know one athiest who doesn't like a Xmas tree

It seems to me that all the noise these days is coming from the 'poor, assulted' right-wing Christians. :shrug:

[rucky]

7. they will never stop whining

until we are all like them.

[girl gone mad]

14. Even that wouldn't stop them from whining. n/t

[Maple]

12. Xmas trees

aren't Christian. They're a pagan custom, so atheists can enjoy them too.

[CatholicEug]

13. I know many jews

who enjoy a good Christmas tree, too.

[JaneDoughnut]

27. It was a debate from last week.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1077684

[China_cat]

31. It's the same thing as the

'men do not come from monkeys' argument. The only ones making that claim are the fundies opposed to the teaching of evolution. All the scientists that I know claim that humans and apes (apes...not monkeys) SHARE an ancestor.

They build the strawmen. Maybe we should contribute the matches.

[Spinzonner]

2. Au contraire

just in requiring everyone else to

[Verve]

4. It's not because they are "showing" their faith, but because they are

"forcing it down other people's throats." They also are doing a great job of harshly judging others that do not share this faith.

As I write this, I am conflicted, because I consider myself a Christian as well. However, I do not wear my faith on my sleeve and I certainly would not advertise my faith like so many christian fanatics have started doing. It is really starting to turn me off. In fact, there is a local store that I will no longer visit because they started advertising that they are a christian based store.

[complain jane]

8. I agree with you -

that kind of thing doesn't seem very Christian to begin with, from so-called Christians.

[complain jane]

5. So often you hear a story like this and then find out that

somewhere in the fine print it says that the Christian group being "discriminated" against is actually being banned because they wanted to do something that nobody else is allowed to do anyway, and not because of their religion.

Like for example maybe the band really was banned from the assembly because they wanted to do something that the school wouldn't permit anyone else to do anyway, like wear something against a dress code or use equipment that violated a safety permit.

I agree that the extremes need to lighten up but often the religious groups claiming to be "discriminated" against are sorta full of crap.

But I'll reserve judgement until I hear the whole story.

[Bridget Burke]

6. So--how badly do they suck?

There's nothing wrong with Christian music. That category includes some of the greatest music in Western Civilization. The Protestant hymn tradition has some wonderful tunes & Black Gospel can't be beat.

Modern artists like U2 & Bob Dylan have been shaped by Christianity. T-Bone Burnett, known more as a producer, has expressed his Christianity in his fine lyrics. (In fact, he was traveling with Dylan during Bob's Christian phase.)

But--this "Christian Music" category seems to have been invented as a marketing ploy for mediocre artists who can't make it otherwise.

And--what other groups are "allowed to show their faith in public schools"?

[JerseygirlCT]

9. Amen.

[Southpaw Bookworm]

11. Christian music

I have a feeling (having seen these sorts of bands and similar events in public schools before) that it's not just a concert they'll be presenting, but an evangelical event designed to bring people to da Lawd.

[TO Kid]

20. Well...

Interestingly enough, a school district in California had no problem with people coming in to evangelize Islam in the name of "multicultural awareness". They even had the kids recite, "There is no God but Allah, Muhammed is His messenger" (in Islam, saying this makes you a convert). I really do think this selective outrage about Christians in the public square is hurting the cause of religious freedom more than helping it.

[Bridget Burke]

22. Could you provide a link?

I'd surely like to read more about your story.

[Bluebear]

23. Which district was that?

I would love to read about that too!

[gratuitous]

26. Ha ha!

No link (naturally), and something like you'd read in a Jack Chick tract (saying the magic words automatically converts you to Islam!). Good one, TO Kid.

[tx_dem41]

28. Ahhh...but there is a link...

and as always, there's more to the story.

http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2002-01/19/article25.shtml

[Bluebear]

29. Fascinating. Thanks for that link! n/t

[gratuitous]

33. Interesting

I would have liked to see the link to whatever article substantiated TO Kid's post. I also note that there was nothing in the Islam Online article about kids saying the "magic words" that would turn them into Muslims.

[Ms. Clio]

40. The link demonstrates that TO Kid's story only faintly resembles reality

(What a stunner!)

A California school has been flooded with threatening phone calls and hate e-mails after an obscure Christian news agency carried an inaccurate report claiming that the school is teaching an intensive three-week course on Islam.

Assist News Service, affiliated with Garden Grove, California, based Assist Ministries, in a January 8th report claimed that 7th graders in a number of public schools in Byron, California, are being required to attend an intensive three week course on Islam.

The report claimed the students attending the course are mandated to learn the tenets of Islam, study important Islam personalities, wear a robe, and adopt a Muslim name. The report soon spread quickly after being picked up by conservative websites, talk shows and even mainstream newspapers like the Washington Times.

The reports especially targeted Excelsior School in Byron, California, where it claimed "students are to pretend that they are Muslims, wear Muslim clothing to school, stage their own jihad via a dice game and pick out a Muslim name from a list of 30."


Yeah. There is always more to these stories--they invariably turn out to be lying propaganda.

[Jesus H. Christ]

46. A half truth is a full lie.

nt

[Ms. Clio]

47. Indeed--there is a pattern of this; it was not an honest mistake n/t

[Ms. Clio]

39. Interestingly enough, you never have links to back up a single thing

you say.

Unless it's from the Asia News, of course.

[GoBlue]

10. Religiosity demonstrates a profound lack of faith.

Afterall, who are they really trying to impress?

[UdoKier]

15. Why do they have to "show their faith" in public schools.

That's what churches and private homes (and downtown street corners) are for.

Public schools are not venues for proselytizing.

[WildClarySage]

16. It always strikes me as ironic

that these same fundies who want gays to keep their relationships private and "outta their faces" are the first ones to stick their religion in everyone else's face.

[tx_dem41]

24. Why have you assumed that the band mentioned in this article...

is a fundamentalist group and/or has an anti-gay stance? Is there something I've missed?

[Blue Diadem]

17. They aren't out to show their faith,

they are out to convert. People can not be forced to come to God and the Christian right's attempt to ram it down people's throats are having the reverse effect. I used to tell my fundie Mom that she did more damage with her attempts at forcing people to listen to her than if she just behaved in a Christian manner and allowed people to choose on their own.

I posted a link to an article yesterday from a Column in The Blade. Does this sound like they are just expressing their faith?

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041219/COLUMNIST03/412190377/-1/COLUMNIST

Just say no to Pawn?

snip:
Well, spreading the Gospel is the point of evangelical Christianity, right? It should surprise no one to hear a Christian musician explain the symbiosis of music 'n' message, but check the band's Web site for confirmation (emphasis original):



"Pawn's main purpose is to spread the word of God to those who do not know Him, and in doing so, give people the love of Christ. We want to reach people for God. You can expect a couple of things from us: First, we will always try to get to a gig early to talk and associate with the people coming to or organizing the gig (and we will probably stay late). We believe that evangelism at its best is created through relationships."

Some lyrics from Pawn, as posted on the Web site:

The Christian Coalition commin' up in a vision/ Ain't no stoppin' us now because we're soldiers on a mission./ Cause when we rock it, we're gonna sock it to 'em. (False teachers better get down, get down!)/ Well I got a scripture fist full of iron and the other of steel. If I miss with one, the other's gonna tell you how I feel.

[Bluebear]

18. What violent "Christian" lyrics!

"The Christian Coalition commin' up in a vision/ Ain't no stoppin' us now because we're soldiers on a mission./ Cause when we rock it, we're gonna sock it to 'em. (False teachers better get down, get down!)/ Well I got a scripture fist full of iron and the other of steel. If I miss with one, the other's gonna tell you how I feel."

Heartwarming.

[Blue Diadem]

19. Just makes you want to

embrace religion doesn't it?

[hatrack]

21. "Christian Rock" - that's kind of like "Latin Greek", or "Dry Wetness"

:shrug:

[TO Kid]

36. Not as strange as it sounds

Christian music was an influence on early rock music, which was derived from country (very Christian) and soul (in turn derived from gospel).

[Pied Piper]

25. Don't preach in my school

and I won't teach in your church!

[immoderate]

30. I'm atheist, but I give music the benefit of the doubt.

I have Christmas albums and gospel music in my collection. Rev. James Cleveland really rocks.

However my experience with some Christian rock bands is that they are on a really down trip. I don't want to listen to that.

--IMM

[TO Kid]

I'm with you

My only question is, was this a required assembly or was attendance optional? If the latter then maybe there's some substance to the complaint.

Like you, I'm an atheist too. I've never felt "threatened" by Christians though, even when they try to "save" me. The people who freak out over "Bible-thumpers" and wither at the sight of the Ten Commandments must be pretty damned insecure in their beliefs.

[Ms. Clio]

41. That explains why you don't appear very familiar with the Old Testament

You seem to feel very threatened by Muslims, though, even though they are not at all interested in saving you. People who freak out over "Quran-thumpers" and wither at the sight of the Hadiths must be pretty damned insecure in their beliefs.

[bobbieinok]

32. Pawn will now bee booked in churches everyehere and get a major

recording contract

places where we'll probably be seeing them......Tulsa area, southern california area, Colorado Springs, areas in FL and TX. Atlanta

I'm thinking of areas that are centers of the religious right

[Zhade]

34. Oh, BULLSHIT. Ask an ATHEIST if they're discriminated against.

You'll see really fucking fast just who's being oppressed in this insane country.

[TO Kid]

35. Funny, I don't feel particularly oppressed

I was the only athiest in my Catholic school, in the public schools opening prayers were mandatory. Never had any trouble, mind you I never told anyone to hide their faith for my benefit.

[Zhade]

37. Funny, I HAVE BEEN.

So...to each their own, I suppose you've been lucky.

[immoderate]

45. TO kid, try running for office in the US.

And you will see how atheists get treated.

(BTW, did you go to school in the US?)

--IMM

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

52. I believe he will have no problem doing so.

If you catch my drift.

[Raiden]

38. Stupid fundies

Don't they know that the Bible says that you should pray in private, because praying in public makes you a hypocrite...

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hyprocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly." (Matthew 6:5-6)

[HeeBGBz]

43. One of my favorite verses for the prayer in schools bunch.

Pray to yourself and God and there wouldn't be a problem.

[Beetwasher]

42. We're Not Allowed To FORCE OUR RELIGION ON YOU!

It's discrimination!!!!

Fucking idiots.

[imax2268]

44. I went to

private (baptist) schools for most of my life...not my decision but my parents...they wanted me to get a good education...go figure...

anyway...every Wednesday we had assembly and were told that if we didn't accept Jesus as our personal savior that we would die horrible deaths and burn in the lake of fire forever...

we had one principle who got fired for saying that the girls in the school dressed up all nice and pretty but they were whores on the inside. We had teachers that would hit students, the principles were allowed to paddle students...

Another school the principle was arrested and charged with embezzelment...stealing money, a lavish home and a new Lincoln for the wife every year...

We had to carry our bibles with us everywhere we went...

It was hell I tell ya...

So...if you ask me...the fundies are getting what they ask for...

anyone remember that picture of the guy holding the sign about Mathew Shepard and saying something nasty about gay's...

I rest my case...fundies can fuck off as far as I'm concerned...

[LeftCoast]

48. Satan Worshipping Rock Band Performs at Local High School

Spoof newspaper headline...but it's good to know fundies would support something like this.

[uhhuh]

49. Anyone Else Laughing about

A Christian rock band called pawn?

[geniph]

50. Scientists have been discriminated against

in showing their reason in the private religious institutions.

Why can't they be happy exercising their freedom of religion in their parochial schools, among their like-minded friends, in their churches, and in their homes? WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE EVERYWHERE? We aren't teaching biology and social studies in the church - why do they have to have their religion in the public schools, their religious displays in public parks, their religious statements in public courthouses?

WE DON'T ALL SUBSCRIBE TO THE SAME FAITH, AND WE DON'T HAVE TO, DAMMIT! Go do your religious singing in parochial schools, churches and to audiences in private venues who wish to hear it. Stop forcing public schoolchildren of all faiths to sit through the proselytizing of a single faith.

[geniph]

51. You know, I have nothing against fundamentalist loons,

so long as they stay in their closet praying like Jesus told them to, and don't flaunt their offensive zealotry where innocent children might be exposed to it