ACLU: BUSH AUTHORIZED TORTURE!!

[mary195149]

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=17216&c=206

[politicasista]

1. The poop is slowly hitting the fan.

:puke:

[understandinglife]

2. Here's the Newsweek skinny on Gonzales

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6733213/site/newsweek/

Guess that billboard in Cuba will be tough to "de-bunk".

Peace.

"I'm an American patriot; not a pro-fraud, torture-lov'in theocrat"

[milesce]

44. Action: Letter to Senate Opposing Gonzales

Sign the letter here:
(veterans and non-veterans are asked to sign):

http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/?page=campaign&campaignID=1

Brigadier General Evelyn P. Foote
United States Army (Retired)

Dear Members and Supporters of Veterans for Common Sense:

I am writing you today to ask you to join me in opposing the nomination of Alberto Gonzales as Attorney General of the United States, by signing a letter which will be delivered by Veterans for Common Sense to the United States Senate in the coming weeks.

When I served as Commander of the 42d Military Police Group in Germany from July '83 - July '85, I was responsible for executing the group's wartime mission, should the need arise, of collecting and controlling all enemy prisoners of war taken in theatre operations. Inherent in that responsibility was the absolute requirement that the Group, its leaders and its soldiers adhere strictly to the Geneva Convention in safeguarding the rights of American Forces' prisoners of war and in insuring that prisoners were treated humanely and appropriately in all instances.

Sadly, since September 11, 2001, those priorities have been overridden by some people in the administration who believe that in order to fight terrorism, we have to abandon our standards and honor. We have seen an administration work to abandon our international agreements. We have seen an administration twist legal logic in order to redefine torture and try to make it acceptable. And, sadly, we have seen the deaths in custody of prisoners held by U.S. forces.

One of the first responsibilities our forces bear under the Geneva Conventions is the protection of prisoners of war. These rules not only protect enemy prisoners of war, but protect our own troops when they are captured on the battlefield, and provide an international legal framework for punishing those who violate those rules.

The key author of the quasi-legal arguments to define torture and re-classify prisoners of war was White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales. Why do we oppose his nomination?

Mr. Gonzales believes that parts of the Geneva Conventions are "obsolete" and "quaint." According to a January 2002 memo to President George Bush, Mr. Gonzales argued, over the objections of Secretary of State Colin Powell, that the United States should not adhere to its requirements under the Geneva conventions because it wasn't practical.

Gonzales approved a Justice Department document which twisted reality by redefining the meaning of the word torture.

Under Gonzales's tenure as White House Counsel, American citizens have been held without trial; without counsel; without the basic Constitutional protections that both the President, and military veterans, swore to defend, in their oaths of office.

According to the news media, Gonzales nomination is expected to sail through the Senate, with only token questioning. We can change that, by making clear our expectation that Gonzales be strongly questioned in his confirmation hearings and that ultimately his candidacy should be rejected.

You can join us, by signing our letter to the U.S. Senate, which will be delivered when confirmation hearings begin to members of the Judiciary Committee, and to the full Senate before his nomination comes up for a vote.

Please join us in telling the Senate that torture is not an American value.

Thank you for your support for our work. Together we can make a difference, and a better future for our country.

Sincerely,

Evelyn P. Foote
Brigadier General, United States Army, Retired.

[newyawker99]

49. Hi milesce!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[DrDebug]

3. That's why we shouldn't give up on the election fraud

Maybe one day we'll see a post with the message: "Bush did authorize election fraud!!"

[mdb]

4. I'm surprised. I really am. Don't I look it?

I'm just as surprised as the administration was when the photos came out.

[Hamoth]

5. Impressive, but how is Bush directly implicated?

Executive order menas one from the executive branch and need not come from the chief executive himself. It seems they are saying that this is rummy's underling...

[kedrys]

7. Let's just decide that * was in on it. That's what Rove would do. n/t

[merh]

8. Uh, I think executive orders can only be signed by the

clown-in-chief. :freak:

[shraby]

14. That's the key

EXECUTIVE order. Shrub is the head of the Executive branch of gov't.

[troubleinwinter]

12. Let's have the investigation, shall we?

From the article...

"....President Bush issued an Executive Order authorizing the use of inhumane interrogation methods against detainees in Iraq."

"The two-page e-mail that references an Executive Order states that the President directly authorized interrogation techniques..."

[merh]

15. Read this document

http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/FBI.121504.4940_4941.pdf

page 1 of 2 pages - last full paragraph
"an executive Order signed by President Bush authorized the following interrogation techniques among others sleep "management", use of MWDs (military working dogs), "stress positions" such as half squats, "environmental manipulation" such as the use of loud music, sensory deprivation through the use of hoods, etc."

[Carolab]

29. Stephen Cambone

is the Deputy. Sy Hersh said he was directly responsible in his New Yorker article, "The Gray Zone".

[KansDem]

6. OH NOOOO! Not Time's POTY!!!

Tell me it ain't so!!!

Now be honest! Is the the face of a torturer!

[pattyloutwo]

10. Boycott Time! eom

[eowyn_of_rohan]

27. What a portrait...What strength! What character!

What a glorified painting of the simpering, wicked little creep...
He always reminded me of Bob Ewell of "To Kill a Mockingbird"

[Swamp Rat]

34. Yes it is!

[bunkerbuster1]

38. I haven't laughed so hard in days.

thanks for the image. I know it's not actually funny, but still.

[merh]

9. Check out the documents referred to in the news release

http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/fbi.html

[coreystone]

11. HUH! .....

So this two page e-mail referencing an (assumed Presidential) Executive order was issued to whom (which agency or agencies)? It would give authorization for some agency or agencies to carry out the order. The FBI, DOD, and the list could on. Someone must have a "Get Out of Jail Free" card....IE - a "hard copy" of the order with the *'s signature on it. If this FBI memo has any substance.

Interesting!!

[KerryOn]

13. All is fair in love and war.

I don't see how there can be rules.
You got to do what you got to do in order to win. War is war and thats all there is to it. If torturing helps get needed information that helps win a war, then so be it. Other wise you might lose.

[shraby]

16. Because we signed the Geneva

Convention to outlaw torture to protect our servicemen. The Constitution states that a treaty signed by our government becomes the law of our land. Look it up.
All is NOT fair in war or wise men wouldn't have thought we needed a Geneva treaty to make torture a war crime with severe penalties.

[nolabels]

20. Tell that to the American Indigenous and several other groups or countries

A treaty with the United States is about nothing but suiting rich peoples purposes. As soon as money is being lost it gets ignored

[rockedthevoteinMA]

18. Are you for real?

You should read up more on the Geneva Conventions before you make such statements.

This torture has placed our service men and women in a very rotten spot.

[troubleinwinter]

19. There ARE "rules"... The Geneva Convention. Read it.

The United States has been signatory to the provisions since 1949.

Read: http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

[demodonkey]

21. Yessiree, if we torture them, they will torture our people right back...

hence the need to follow basic "ground rules" for war (Geneva Convention).

[DoYouEverWonder]

22. Because the war is over

and it was an illegal war to boot.

Now we are the occupiers and there is a minimum standard set out in the Geneva Convention about the responsibilities of the occupying power.

Beside Bush told us over and over that we were there to free the Iraq adn Afghan people from oppressive dictators and bring them freedom and democracy. Seems he lied about that part too.

[KerryOn]

31. Ok, Ok enough

I will just pick one to respond to.

Look, I by no means support the torture of those we are currently fighting, and I'm very aware of the Geneva convention. Torture is not humane. However....

I do not understand how one can set rules for war. When you really sit down and think about it, it makes no sense.

Forget Iraq, forget Afghanistan. Just think of war in general. War is not a game. We are not playing a game of chess. War is war and people get killed. I do believe that when you go to war you go at the last resort, when all other options have failed. (Unlike Bush.)

If you go to war as the last resort, then that means things must be pretty desperate, meaning the future of your country and life as you know it is at stake. If all of this is true, then I would do anything possible, to make sure that I survived and came out the winner. And yes that could very well include torture of the enemy, if my survival depended on it. The Geneva Convetion means nothing when your survival is at stake.

Let me make it clear. I do not support the war in Iraq, and I do not support torture of enemy troops in this war. The war in Iraq is unjust, and I don't think the future of our country is at stake because of this war. (Perhaps Bush does.)

[troubleinwinter]

39. There are more reasons to abide by the guidelines.

There is are moral, and humane, and legal, but also the practical/military reasons.

A fighter who knows that he will be treated with dignity and in a humane manner, is more likely to put down his weapon.

A fighter that knows he will be tortured, humiliated and abused, will likely fight to the death.

[Ms. Clio]

45. But in fact, torture is not a reliable means of extracting information

As the real experts on the subject will tell you.

Remember the middle ages? Remember the Inquisition and the witch hunts? People who were tortured would say anything, make up any crazy story about screwing Satan and causing crops to fail and eating Christian babies or whatever simply to make the pain stop. They implicated other innocents, and more and more people were tortured and then executed.

TORTURE DOESN'T WORK.

In addition to being utterly immoral and illegal.

[KerryOn]

50. I guess I must be talking to the right.

I can't believe that no one understands where I'm coming from.
I agree torture is not moral.
But FOGET the Genevea convention!
There is nothing ilegal about torture when it comes to war!
How an you have rules?
It makes NO sence.
You goto win no matter what it takes.
Rules?
Yea right.
It is not a boxing match, it is a war!
That is my only point.

[jsamuel]

51. Uh, funny, because Bush disagrees with you

At least that is what he said on National TV and all over the world. So, your arguement doesn't work for him...

"I condemn these horrible acts..."

[KerryOn]

52. What do you mean Bush disagrees

... with me?

Go back and read my posts.
I never said that I approved of torture.
I never said that it was right to torture.

One last time --- "There can not be any rules in war." What are they going to do call the war police? The thought of rules is stupid. I think everyone misunderstood my original post.

Lets look at his another way.

Recently there have been several cases where American service men are being tried for murder, because they killed a wounded insurgent. I have a big problem with that. Isn't that what they are suppose to do? Send a young man to war to kill people, and then put him on trial for murder?

You got to put yourself in that eighteen year olds position.
First off you are scared to death, and any soldier that tells you other wise is lying. The first person you look out for is yourself. Not your buddy, and not your country. You look out for number one first, then your buddies, and you do anything you have to do to stay alive. You become an animal and fight for your survival. You learn very quickly not to stick your neck out and take unnecessary chances. There could be a chance that that soldier is playing dead, and at any moment he could roll over and blast you in two, or detonate an explosive device. You don't wait, you make a split second decision, to insure that you survive and you kill him before he has the slightest chance to do the same to you.

Then what do you do when that little child comes walking to-wards you? Does that little child have a satchel charge on him? How do you know? How can you tell? What would YOU do?

That is the reality of war, and it is not pretty, like it or not.

Torture is not humane, and neither is war.

Again don't read anything into my posts that are not there. I do not support torture as it has happen in THIS war.

There are no rules in war and there can be no rules. If someone writes rules on piece of paper what good are they?

[Ms. Clio]

53. TORTURE DOESN'T WORK & won't help you win anything

And why do something that is not only illegal and immoral but does not even work?

It is clear that you either failed to read my post, or you lack the ability to understand it. Experts on the subject, such as CIA interrogators, have acknowledged that torture does not work when it comes to extracting reliable information from suspect.

How does something that doesn't work help you "win?"

Your point is senseless.


Torture Is Often a Temptation and Almost Never Works
By James Glanz
SOURCE: NY Times

''You've got to be able to count on the quality of the information you're obtaining,'' said Michael Baker, a 16-year veteran of the C.I.A. who is now chief executive of Diligence Middle East, a private security company that is working in Iraq. ''And once the prisoner is being tortured, how do you rely on what he's saying, because people will do anything to make the torture go away,'' Mr. Baker said.

In other words, torture doesn't work.

http://www.csudh.edu/dearhabermas/iraqibk03.htm

[Straight Shooter]

24. Bad move.

1. What you do unto your enemy, they shall do unto you, with impunity.

2. Information obtained through torture is notoriously unreliable.

3. It's illegal, unethical, immoral, un-American and un-Christian.

[Blue_In_AK]

28. Protects us

The Geneva Convention rules were set up to protect US service people. If we ignore the rules, why should anyone else follow them? This is very, very bad. Add it to the list of Bush's impeachable offenses.

[0007]

33. You still must be in high school or middle school!

Has the Army recruiters been to your school yet?

[Swamp Rat]

36. Did Jesus teach you that?

[Zhade]

48. Bye, Freeper Nazi fuck! You won't be here long.

NT!

[Gothmog]

17. These are serious charges

I hope that these charges are aired in Gonzales' confirmation hearing. The refusal of the Bush administration to adhere to the Geneva Convention is a major issue.

[madison2000]

23. so thats why his cabinet is leaving!

[buddysmellgood]

25. Hey, CNN radio actually mentioned it! Almost like they thought it was

important.

[ElementaryPenguin]

26. Which only makes the Chimperor an IMPEACHABLE WAR CRIMINAL!!

Would've been nice to have had this revealed BEFORE the election!!

[Octafish]

32. CHIMPEACH the war criminal!

And throw the rest of the bums in Congress, the Courts and the Executive who support the bloody turd's treason in the clink, as well.



It's hard work bein' a war prez-nit.

[Swamp Rat]

37. HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Great pic! :D

Here's my latest:

[Carolab]

30. I think this is good one for the media blaster...

has anyone checked to see if this has hit any form of MSM?

[troubleinwinter]

40. Media blast away!

[DireStrike]

35. I KNOW! IT'S CLINTON'S FAULT!

He was head of the executive branch once! Can't we blame it on him somehow?!?

[Disturbed]

41. War Crimes.

What is a war crime?
By Tarik Kafala
BBC News Online


Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention defines war crimes as: "Willful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, including... willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health, unlawful deportation or transfer or unlawful confinement of a protected person, compelling a protected person to serve in the forces of a hostile power, or willfully depriving a protected person of the rights of fair and regular trial, ...taking of hostages and extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly."


This, international lawyers say, is the basic definition of war crimes.

The statutes of The Hague tribunal say the court has the right to try suspects alleged to have violated the laws or customs of war in the former Yugoslavia since 1992. Examples of such violations are given in article 3:

* Wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity
* Attack, or bombardment, by whatever means, of undefended towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings
* Seizure of, destruction or willful damage done to institutions dedicated to religion, charity and education, the arts and sciences, historic monuments and works of art and science
* Plunder of public or private property.

The tribunal defines crime against humanity as crimes committed in armed conflict but directed against a civilian population. Again a list of examples is given in article 5:

* Murder
* Extermination
* Enslavement
* Deportation
* Imprisonment
* Torture
* Rape
* Persecutions on political, racial and religious grounds.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1420133.stm


http://www.paranoidlarry.com
http://www.globalresearch.ca
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/index.jsp
http://www.madcowprod.com
http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk
http://www.ndp.ca
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com

[Disturbed]

42. War Wriminal

Rumsfailed is a War Criminal. Shrub is also but hard evidence must still be obtained regarding his complicity.


Rumsfailed Admitted to Violating Geneva Convention

Rumsfailed admitted in public on TV that when CIA Director Tenet requested that an Iraqi prisoner be sent to a secret Afghan/US Prison that Rumsfailed did so. After four months a DOD Attorney stated that this was an illegal act. Rumsfailed then ordered that this prisoner be sent back to Abu Graihib but the prisoner was purposefully not listed at that location, also an illegal act. Rumsfeld also admitted to signing orders for tougher interogation methods which violated the Geneva Conventions.

Rumfailed has commited at least three violations of the Geneva Convention thereby also violations of The Constitution of the USA. Recently it has been found out that even more detainees were "ghost detainees". The fact that Rumsfailed and Tenet have not been charged speaks volumes. If Congress wishes to garner any respect they should move forward with Rep. Rangle's Impeachment Declaration of Rumsfailed and also proscecute Ex. CIA Tenet.

=========================
Q: Senator Jack Reed (Dem, RI): "If you were shown
a video of a United States Marine or an American
citizen in control of a foreign power, in a cell block,
naked with a bag over their head, squatting with their
arms uplifted for 45 minutes, would you describe that
as a good interrogation technique or a violation of
the Geneva Convention?"

A: Marine Gen. Peter Pace, the vice chairman of the
Joint Chiefs of Staff: "I would describe it as a violation."

A: Paul D. Wolfowitz, the deputy secretary of defense: "What
you've described to me sounds to me like a violation of the
Geneva Convention."

Thursday, May 13, 2004, Senate Armed Services Committee hearings

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25737-20...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25737-2004May13.htm

Friday 17 December 2004

“Scott Horton, a New York lawyer and president of the International League for Human Rights, has spent months investigating the role Bush administration officials played in the torture scandal. He says there is mounting evidence - including the May 10 FBI e-mail - that strongly suggests that Rumsfeld and his top intelligence aides were directly responsible for the wholesale abandonment of legal and ethical norms as well as international treaty obligations. Now that Republican senators and neoconservative ideologues are publicly turning their backs on the defense secretary, perhaps even he may someday be held accountable for this disgraceful stain on the honor of the U.S. armed forces.”

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/121804X.shtml




Does the US, Govt., Congress, and the Justice Dept no longer abide by the Geneva Convention or the Constitution of the USA?

[merh]

43. Read the FBI documents that are linked at the aclu website and

are cited in the press release.

Apparently the FBI has seen the Executive Order signed by the weed. The executive order appears to be hard evidence. Sadly, it is not a published executive order (that I can find).

http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/FBI.121504.4940_4941.pdf

page 1 of 2 pages - last full paragraph
"an executive Order signed by President Bush authorized the following interrogation techniques among others sleep "management", use of MWDs (military working dogs), "stress positions" such as half squats, "environmental manipulation" such as the use of loud music, sensory deprivation through the use of hoods, etc."

[nolabels]

47. Findings that are kept locked up and hid, that say breaking the law.......

for the common good is acceptable (thus legal). Twisted ideas by twisted minds is one demented way to run things. I am sure them good rational Christian fundamentalists can twist the minds of their brethren cult members (like they did in the dark ages) to rationalize why torture is a good and productive thing. A thing that this Character named God would not let happen if it was not needed. I would say the guy that comes up with that type of reasoning was just a reincarnation of the guy who sold the Brooklyn Bridge for cheap.

Such a nice Christian nation under reigns of Mr.Bush

The New Dark Age Revisited

John Horvath 05.02.2002
The torture debate illustrates how the latest in technological wizardry is not necessary to plunge us into the depths of intellectual darkness

In 1996 Mark Stahlman, a former technology analyst on Wall Street, espoused his theories about the rise of the New Dark Age. At that time, he couldn't have foreseen how quickly circumstances would develop to this end. Even so, the new dark age has turned out to be not exactly what he -- or many others like him -- thought it would be. Then, in the eyday of the "Internet Revolution", it was considered that technology would play a fundamental role in the new dark age. In essence, the new dark age would be primarily a digital dark age.

Recent events, however, have shown this not to be the case. Unlike Stahlman's prophecy that we would be psychologically programmed and that new media networks would become the mechanism of psychological destruction and seamless surveillance, the new dark age has descended in a much more simple manner: that of self-censorship and collective amnesia. In other words, the latest in technological wizardry is not required to plunge us into the depths of darkness.

This is where many of the doom and gloom philosophers of the past made their mistake. Caught up in the euphoria of the so-called "Internet Revolution", Stahlman and others were constrained by a binary way of thinking. For them it was clearly black or white: either the new media would be utilized to further the forces of darkness, or it could be used to forestall our personal demise, if we could just grasp its positive potential in good time.
(snip)
http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/11/11731/1.html

[rndmprsn]

46. interesting...

im curious to see how this will unfold.

[nascarblue]

54. I'm not surprised at all, Did you guys read through all the others?

Everyone is in on it... Powell, Rice, Rummy, etc. The ACLU has a whole page with links to all the email's and memo's they got out of their FOIA requests. This shit is surreal... To think all the corporate mainstream media was talking about a blue dress 6 years ago, and now our government is pure nazism, torturing and destroying cities (Fallujah), detaining people, not charging them for years, I still find it shocking how distorted this country has become.

[Starlight]

55. A little OT, but please remember the ACLU with a holiday donation!

As you can see, the ACLU is doing some very valuable work. :)

If you have any last minute gifts, especially for those obnoxious fundie relatives ;), donations make great gifts. :)

[seabeyond]

56. he said it on national tv before the war in a press conference

that this was a different kind of war and they had to use all means to gather information and the geneva convention didnt apply to us. oh to those who fight us, but we dont have to go by it. not a surprise to anyone who has half an ear of what is going on in the world of bush

nothing new