FL Baptists trespass and put up nativity scene at courthouse

[sherilocks]

<snip>
Pastor Ron Burkes said he's surprised anyone is offended by the manger which he says also includes a snowman for secular reasons.
"Basically, I guess I would ask you a question; What is to be offended by a nativity scene, a mother and a father and her child?" Burkes said.
Burkes told Local 6 News that America was founded on what he calls Godly principles.
"I don't think separation of church and state was ever intended to be separation from religious beliefs and practices all together," Burkes said. "And I think we have taken it to that extreme."
The county has not asked First Baptist to remove the nativity scene but they do say the people who put it up trespassed, since they never asked for permission.

<snip>


http://www.local6.com/news/4011995/detail.html

[AllegroRondo]

1. This man should be charged with trespassing and littering

[heretheycome]

2. Let them have it

we have bigger battles to fight

[BlueJazz]

6. No offense but "Separation of Church and State"....

..is a big battle. If left up to the Fundies we'll be back in the dark ages with the church dictating how we live our lives. Give these folks an inch and they'll take a light year...

[heretheycome]

8. I agree with you but

the world is in a crises. With all the fighting, killing, hatred, poverty going on why put our energy into something that hangs around one week a year. Man Switzerland is starting to rumble over the senseless death... you know the story.

I do understand how you feel about give "an inch and they'll take a light year..." but I feel this is a distraction to bigger problems.

[Kber]

27. And imagine you are a Muslim, Jew or Hindu

walking past this Christian symbol on the lawn of the institution that will be hearing your case? Like we've outlawed churches and they have no other place to put their displays? Even a public library would be less worrysome.

[ip568]

44. Nothing...

... will lose any group in the U.S. more public support than religion-bashing. Every ACLU "victory" in removing a nativity scene or menhora from some town or city gets another several hundred thousand more votes for the Republicans.

Reality check.

[cosmicdot]

77. this is "religion-bashing"?

how, and how does this get "another several hundred thousand votes for Republicans." ?

[Cobalt Violet]

85. Didn't you know that demanding the America Way...

Of separtation of church and state is "religion bashing" now? And we should give up what is right for a few hundred thousand votes?

[InvisibleBallots]

87. thank you, you are so right of course

Regardless of the rightness or wrongness of it - it's just a loser of an issue.

[MrUnderhill]

11. But he was right.

"Seperation of church and state" wasn't meant to completely seperate all religious observance from the public square.

The "battle" IS worth fighting, but this is not the grounds of that battle. It lies instead in the passing of federal laws that implement specific religious "values" (gay marriage, etc.)

A creche scene is not the grounds on which we wish to fight. It marginalizes us as much as most of PETA's efforts.

[sherilocks]

33. Mr. Underhill

Who is the "we" that does not wish to fight creche scenes on public property, and the "us" that finds PETA's efforts marginalizing? I'm not sure that anyone can speak for all at DU. I haven't found a concensus on much of anything here, particularly these two issues. If there was such universal agreement at DU, I wouldn't even bother to sign in.

[MrUnderhill]

38. "We" in this case...

...would be people who wish Democrats to win elections and/or control the agenda here in America. It's like saying "oh... you don't want to do THAT". YOU may think you do... but I'm telling you that you may not see all the facts.

Watch the PETA threads here on DU and see how even on one of the most progressive sites on the "internets" PETA is derided as being irrational. Is it because there aren't a majority of us who WANT to see humane treatment of animals? No! I's because they make stupid arguments like encouraging kids to drink beer instead of milk. Or pointing out how inhumane kosher slaughterhouses are (can you name the slaughterhouses they DO approve of? I'll be happy to use those).

I'm saying that THIS argument is of a similar flavor. Allowing the battleground to be fought over the ten commandments or nativity scenes puts Democrats on the wrong side of popular opinion. It's like the Republicans deciding to make a big issue defending a guy carrying a machine gun around the Mall because to NOT do so would start them down the "slippery slope" to all guns being banned.

[sherilocks]

43. I don't agree with your reasoning on this

PETA is not the Democratic Party and believing in the separation of church and state is not a Democratic Party concept; it is an American concept. Standing up for what you believe in is more important than any political party. When this country slides into a christian or any other religious state, we have lost, even if we win. Look at the Muslim states that are run by their religious leaders. This will give you some insight as to why our Constitution needs to be upheld. The slippery slope is spineless Democratic leaders who would rather concede anything remotely controversial, than defend basic rights guaranteed to ALL Americans by the Constitution.

[MrUnderhill]

45. You didn't "disagree" - I think you missed the point

A nativity scene in a public square is NOT a "separation of Church and State" issue. To think the Founders envisioned forbidding these public displays of faith is to grossly misread their intentions.

Now... if the town council had requested the nativity scene and had forbidden a menorah... THEN we would be talking a clear church/state issue that would be worth defending.

But the "founding fathers" had no problem with public displays of faith (both in and around public buildings) that were identifiably Christian in nature. I can't reconcile the logic that says these same men had intended to forbid such behavior.

[sherilocks]

48. The request was made and turned down.

The group went in and put it up anyway. Regardless, it does not belong on property belonging to the taxpayers, i.e. the state. The church can put up the biggest display they want, on their own property.

If I missed the point, it is because you keep changing it. I believe that the point that I was responding to was whether Democrats could win elections if they stayed firm in their principles, even if those principles might be unpopular.

[MrUnderhill]

50. I wasn't changing the point

I'm saying it ISN'T "standing on principles" to mix this with the separation of Church and State. If that BECOMES a Democratic "principle", then we've got new problems. Stand on the separation of church and state ALL DAY LONG and that will be fine with me. But don't mix it up with benign symbols like this. That isn't the "Democratic principle" - else you could find more than a few Democratic politicians who are willing to support that position.

But with a public prayer opening each session of Congress, I can't believe that prayer itself is a violation - or that our Democratic principles are offended by it. And when the founders purchased bibles for the public schools I can't believe a nativity scene offended them.

The PRINCIPLE to defend here is that government should neither be enacting laws based on specific religious principles nor should it dictate how a church should worship. Things like "in God we trust" on the currency or "under God" in the pledge are fringe issues only related tangentially to the church/state argument.

[sherilocks]

52. You just made my point

You say:

"Things like "in God we trust" on the currency or "under God" in the pledge are fringe issues only related tangentially to the church/state argument."

_________________________________

Both of these so-called fringe issues were added in the 1950s. The slippery slope begins. Now, after countless SCOTUS decisions regarding symbolic Christian displays on public property, good "law-abiding" christians defy the law and put up the display anyway. What's next while we say, "that's not an important enough issue to defend against? "

[MrUnderhill]

54. A history lesson for you

"In God we Trust" dates back to around 1863, not the 1950s.

And it hardly matters, the date something passes is not evidence for whether it fits in with the Founders designs. The assault weapons ban is just a few years old... is it NOT in line with your impression of Constitutional priorities?

But you dodged the question. Do you REALLY think the founders who printed bibles for the use in the public schools and had incredibly christian prayers right there in Congress would ahve a problem with a nativity scene?

It's when that tresspassing pastor walks in to the government building and says "God says forbid gay marriage!" that we have a problem. The public arena is owned by people of ALL faiths... not exclusively people of NO faith. Democratic principles are defended by fighting to INCLUDE everyone... not EXCLUDE everyone to be fair.

[Royal Observer]

47. Let's take a poll

if one hasn't already been done on whether or not the majority of DUers agree on the nativity scene and PETA. I'd be interested in the findings.

[sherilocks]

53. Okay Royal Observer

start one, but leave out PETA, pleeeeez. I happen to donate to PETA and I usually support the group, but I can't stand the anguish that a few of the more sadistic DUers bring to the more faint-hearted animal lovers here. :cry:

[MrUnderhill]

55. Ah... I see.

Didn't realize you took the PETA stuff so personally. Sorry.

But surely you realize that the tactics they use intending to get publicity only seek to strengthen their organization (financially) at the expense of any real progress they might make?

People are not shamed into avoiding milk by telling them beer is better for them. And people don't switch off of beef because some kosher butcher is cruel to a cow (when they can't afford kosher beef anyway).

PETA seems to never make the news with "animal shelter" type stuff. You know.. the "save rusty" type adds that get people to rescue an animal that is going to be put down. There far more likely to make the news for "rescuing" hundreds of minks from their cages only to see the minks kill each other more brutally than what was planned for them and die away from any environment they could survive in.

[sherilocks]

56. Mr. Underhill

That's way off topic. I wasn't talking about myself. I don't rise to the bait on PETA, but in deference to others I asked that it remain off a poll about nativity scenes on public property. I thought it would be an interesting poll, without PETA disputes.

[MrUnderhill]

58. It was an honest question

I saw the "crying" smiley and your comment on personally donating... what was I supposed to think? That you "weren't talking about yourself"?

I raised the two (PETA & taking "separation" too far) as examples of how fringe elements can take us not only out of the mainsteam... but out of the mainstream of Democratic thought. I wasn't trying to get a rise out of you. You are welcome to COMPLETELY support any activity of theirs that you agree with. It's no skin off my nose. But surely we can discuss the political viability/impact of strategy without arguing the underlying beliefs? I don't need to post "beef? mmmm yummy!" like some do on those threads.

Your response kinda proves the point. If PETA is too controversial even HERE on a very progressive site... then they aren't scoring us any political points. Just like you aren't going to find many Democratic politicians supporting banning nativity scenes or removing "in God we trust" from the currency.

[sandnsea]

74. That's DOCTRINE, not values

Bringing morals and values into government is exactly what every person is supposed to do. NOT religious doctrine or practice. Religious marriage is doctrine. Equality and tolerance are values.

[MadHound]

7. Yeah, let's let that battle of the seperation of church and state

Slide right on down that slippery slope, we have better things to worry about, like which spineless Dem to run in '08:eyes:

Sorry, but I think that the battle over seperation of church and state is a very important one. You may be comfortable living in a theocratic fascist state, but I'm certainly not.

These RW fundies are just chipping away at the church/state barrier. You let them get by with a little bit here, they'll take a little more there, and pretty soon we'll all be living the Handmaid's Tale. No thanks friend, if these people want a nativity scene, put it on private property, after all, there are plenty of churches around.

[bryant69]

18. They broke the law

In order to pick a fight.

We need to trumpet this story, as it puts the lie to a lot of this persecuted christians myth.

Bryant
check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Bandit]

39. What is bigger than defending the Constitution?

How many have died defending that document and you so carelessly cast it aside. :shrug: America has no chance in hell with an attitude like that.

[Royal Observer]

61. I will not defend the Constitution

when it says that slavery was constitutional, as it did in the 1850's or when it said that beer was was unconstitutional, as in the 1920's.

[Forkboy]

51. No,let's not

[latteromden]

3. "Includes a snowman for secular reasons"?

:wtf:

[Not_Giving_Up]

5. Yeah, I thought that was strange too...

Maybe they thought that if Frosty was there, no one would say anything. Here's a good one:

snip

"I don't think separation of church and state was ever intended to be separation from religious beliefs and practices all together," Burkes said. "And I think we have taken it to that extreme."


This was also a headline there...

snip

Ducks Found Shot With Blow Darts
Darts Pierce Ducks' Head, Eyes


JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- Seven ducks at a Jacksonville apartment complex were injured in blowgun attacks.

One duck had seven darts in its head, and another was found with a dart in its eye. Animal control officers are treating the animals.

Maybe the ducks offended some fundie.

[MrUnderhill]

13. It probably WASN'T "for secular reasons".

I think it's trying an end-around on a Supreme Court ruling that says that such public displays are fine if they include multiple symbols (a menorah AND a creche could be ok).

I guess their line of thought goes that secularism IS a religion... and therefore, the frosty icon covers them (they probably didn't WANT a Jewish/Muslim/whatever religious symbol in there).

[sandnsea]

76. The faith of the frosty miracle

When he came to life that day... now when I see tophats I will have to pray...

[sandnsea]

75. Snowmen, wisemen,

eh, as long as we get that Jesus thing in there...

[Not_Giving_Up]

4. This is at least the second episode of

Renegade Christians that I've heard of in the last week or so. Good night, what's next? The thing is, that when they are told to take it down, they go back to their congregations and scream persecution. It's not persecution, you dumb fucks, you can't put religious symbolism on the damn courthouse lawn! Go put in front of your church. Go put it in your front yard. I was raised by fundies, and I know this mentality. Someone should go put something that reflects a belief other than theirs on their church lawn, and watch them scream trespassing.

[ucmike]

9. hypocrisy...again

"Basically, I guess I would ask you a question; What is to be offended by a nativity scene, a mother and a father and her child?" Burkes said.


like its a scene of joe average american at the dinner table with his family and his snowman. i wonder how this guy would react if someone else...say the aclu...described a nativity scene in such nonchalant terms.


p.s. where the menorah? you included a snowman for the non-rabid christians amongst us.

p.p.s. imagine the reaction from them if a menorah was erected in this fashion and allowed to remain by the county.

[oneighty]

10. mother-father-child?

God was there in person?

180

[ucmike]

12. god follows these people around.

they worry him. i think he's keeping an eye on them.
at least according to the snowman at my church.

[MrUnderhill]

14. ???

Huh?

[ucmike]

21. referenced snowman in the article

wasn't meant to be terribly relevant or insightful.

[MrUnderhill]

22. Sorry. I was responding to 180's comment.

I don't get the need for God to be there personally?

[oneighty]

23. God is the father.

Right? Mary's husband is window decoration. She is a virgin? Marriage never consummated?

It is so confusing. Yes?

180

[MrUnderhill]

28. Ah.... I see. No, it isn't confusing.

At the time, an adopted son was MORE of a son than a natural one would be. Joseph WOULD have been properly the "father". How else could Jesus be "of the line of David" if not through Joseph?

This assumes that the whole thing is more than a "myth" to you.

[oneighty]

30. I have an adopted son

our only son and no I do not believe he is any more of a son than a natural son would be. It is unlikely I would perceive a difference.

Joseph is the step father to Jesus (If you believe the story/myth).

I just point out that God is said to be the Father to Jesus. So in a nativity scene God should be present as the father. Jesus is God's responsibility so God should be there. IMHO

It is a Christian thing to admit to being the father to the child of a virgin mother.

Oh wait. The Holy Trinity is the Father The Son the Holy Ghost.

"Hear oh Israel the Lord God is One."

Yes it is confusing.

180

[wpbpete78]

15. Emboldened

They are getting very bold now that they feel the have their "mandate". They also get tons of press coverage with each stupid incident. This has been going on for years but has gotten great press this year and every hour you see some nonsense on the news "Christmas Under Siege". Truth is we have bigger battles to fight right now like the Social Security gift to the brokerages, the war and countless other things. If we ignore these wingnut idiots they will look like fools and we will win.

[sherilocks]

19. I disagree

Defending the Constituion is as, or more, important. Wars, social security, and countless other things, as you put it, are issues. The Constituion is the fundamental basis of all law in the United States. Erode the Constituion, and all the "countless other things" no longer matter.

[AngryOldDem]

16. Take it down, and follow the local laws concerning trespass

Case closed.

[soup]

24. Ah, not quite so easy. Removing it may violate the lawbreaker's

Constitutional rights?!?

So, once it's there, it stays?

---

Wot nonsense is this?

>snip<
"It's an unresolved issue at this point," Jarret says. "The Supreme Court has essentially said that once it becomes a public forum, it's a public forum. So it could prove to be difficult to restrain or otherwise regulate content."

In short, Jarret is unsure the county can take the display down without violating the constitutional rights of the church members who placed it there. And with no further commission business scheduled for the remainder of the year, any action would require a special board meeting.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42005

---

and another snip from the article that just made me shake my head in wonder:

>snip<
Commissioner Randy Wilkinson, the official behind the nativity effort, proposed adorning the historic courthouse with multicultural holiday decorations representing multiple religions. Resistance to that solution came from another commissioner who said the citizens of Polk County shouldn't have to tolerate "symbols of people who hate," in reference to Islamic decorations.

"When people blow up our buildings, I ain't putting those symbols up on there," he concluded. Consequently, the multicultural option failed.

[beyurslf]

17. Anyone else just not care what some crazy preacher's interpretation of

the meaning of the Constitution is? That's why we have law schools.
I wouldn't go to Harvard law to find out what the book of Matthew means.

[madfloridian]

20. A county commissioner and retired sheriff's dept major helped do this.

They encouraged it and Major Pittman is featured on WFTS in Tampa, bragging about it.

The Baptists here are pushing for the constitutional amendment prohibiting gay marriage.

They encouraged the rush to war by touting it as a war of good against evil.

It is time to stand up to them...and it was the church where I was raised. So I can say that without fear of offending. They were hijacked, and they are out of control here.

[Kber]

25. "I don't think separation of church and state was ever intended

to be separation from religious beliefs and practices all together," Burkes said.

Um, yes it was.

[madfloridian]

26. Seinfeld group gets in on the act.

http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041221/NEWS/412210340/1004

Second Holiday Display Put Beside Manger

By Diane Lacey Allen
The Ledger
[e-mail]

BARTOW -- Like an episode out of "Seinfeld," fans of the defunct comedy series erected the second covert holiday display within a week at the Polk County administration building.

After a group of grandparents from First Baptist Church of Bartow put up an unsanctioned Nativity scene on public property, the Seinfeld fans placed a sign promoting a made-up holiday.

"Festivus for the Rest of Us" is the greeting on the sign placed next to the manger scene on the lawn of the Neil Combee County Administration Building."

[soup]

29. Thank you for this.

I am laughing so hard I have tears running down my face.

Yes, I know it's a serious issue, but that picture is priceless.

[madfloridian]

31. I know....we reacted that way also.

Priceless.

[madfloridian]

34. Soup, we're the only ones apparently.

who laughed. It was just so so....whatever.

These groups are so out of control here that it was like comic relief.

[IHeart1993]

35. How to annoy fundies-

put this sign by a church. They do hate Hollywood (and creative thinking)

[lpbk2713]

32. Express your sentiments in the local paper.........

Link: http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/frontpage

In the right column where it says "Polk Pulse".

This should be interesting when they hear from DUers.

Personally I would like to erect a sign in the same general area that simply says FUCK just to see how it would be received. Something tells me it wouldn't last long but the rest would stay. Maybe I should E-Mail George Carlin?

[RuleofLaw]

36. What the F**k?

"According to County Attorney Joe Jarret, who sympathizes with the church members, the nativity scene isn't unconstitutional but their actions constituted a trespass on public property. The county has to regulate displays on public property, he told Polk County's News Chief, otherwise they "would soon turn into forums for various groups, many of whom agendas contrary to prevailing community mores, morals and attitudes."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42005

Now, I am a lawyer and I have never heard this argument, that if you do something illegal the government cannot stop?

So, if I were to go to Polk County Court House and erect a sign saying that County Attorney Joe Jarret is a baby killer, he would have to let that sign stand, because taking it down would violate my right to free speech?

Wonder if I missed something in Con. Law. :crazy:

As far as I know they have to regulate displays, DISPLAYED WITH A PERMISSION! Not unlawful displays.

But, alas, notice that this idiot is supporting the church!

[madfloridian]

37. New rule. Appears to be. See this link.

Just kidding about the new rule...sort of. They make up their own rules in Florida.

http://www.wfts.com/stories/2004/12/041220nativity.shtml

I was Southern Baptist until the Iraq war happened. They supported it. This is a local TV coverage. The lawyer fighting them is a friend of ours, and it is good he has an unlisted number.

[RuleofLaw]

40. Unbelievable

I think someone should put up a 666 sign and see how long it will stay there.

[madfloridian]

73. Here a number if you want to figure it out. My post from below.

I tried to talk and I realized the light was on and no one was home.
I gave up.

863-534-6000

Some of us tried to find out the basis for taking down the Festivus sign...one commissioner did not know at all...said talk to the lawyer. (jarret)

Another seemed unable to figure any of it out, he just knew he was a Christian and that God should be part of our government.

I dare anyone to get a straight answer. Go for it. This is what we live with here daily. This is Jeb Country and God Country, and there is no rational explanation needed.

I was Southern Baptist, I am a Christian, and I am appalled.

Again that number is 863-534-600

[madfloridian]

41. Same commissioner supporting this wanted to pull funding from museum.

Read this and be alarmed. Do a search on his name, and you will see what it is like here. It is out of control.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/features/lifestyle/orl-livartwork17121704dec17,0,1715614.story?coll=orl-home-headlines

Scroll down.
SNIP..."Arts battle front

Controversy about the arts in Polk County peaked last month when the Polk Museum of Art in Lakeland risked losing $75,000 in county funding over the content in three events -- two with political messages and one with a religious theme. County Commissioner Randy Wilkinson, a former librarian, lobbied for pulling the funding. When that failed, he suggested cutting it in half but that also was unsuccessful.

"They've crossed the Rubicon, taking a radical departure in community standards in the last month or so," he said.

The materials that Wilkinson found objectionable in this case weren't pictures of naked people, but rather a showing of Michael Moore's film Fahrenheit 9-11, a satirical play about a Catholic nun, and an exhibit and discussion by the Guerrilla Girls, a feminist group that points out perceived inequities involving women. The image shown to Polk commissioners was from a promotional poster from the Guerrilla Girls exhibit.

One of the group's members, who spoke at the Polk museum, says conservative times account for some of the trend but also that some people simply don't like feminism.

"We've certainly had our share of hate mail," said a Los Angeles artist who uses the pseudonym Kathe Kollowitz, the name of a German political activist. All the Guerrilla Girls assume the name of a female artist or activist from history for their work and wear gorilla masks when speaking in public. They plan another show in April at Stetson University in DeLand......"

[sherilocks]

46. Wimpy spineless Democratic Mayor Dyer

orders paintings taken down that he (Dyer) found disturbing. The jerk doesn't have a clue and wouldn't know art from a dirt smudge on the wall.

<snip>

In Orlando last year, Mayor Buddy Dyer ordered removed from City Hall many paintings from an exhibit by well-known Florida artist Jeff Whipple that he found disturbing.

The images included one painting called "Domestic Discussion," which showed a man with one leg sliced off while holding a coffee mug and drill and a woman with bleeding legs holding a coffee mug and power saw. The artist said most people laugh when they see it because it speaks to troubled relationships.

<snip>

[madfloridian]

49. And this from our county again....a paper bra...

BARTOW -- The makeshift little paper bra came out of nowhere.

The image of a woman lying with her back exposed -- and the bottom of her breast showing -- was projected on a screen for the Polk County Commission during a recent debate on killing funding for the Polk Museum of Art.

Suddenly, two fingers of a county employee crept across the image from the overhead projector, inching a tiny scrap of paper over the exposed skin.

The slip of paper did its job, but it also may have illustrated a more widely felt trend as some Central Florida artists bemoan the lack of venues that offer space for art involving nudity, provocative imagery or strong political themes......"

It has gotten so out of control here. I could post more stuff, but this should indicate a trend. It is embarrassing.

[Lorien]

42. How about putting it up in front of a CHURCH?

now THERE'S a radical concept! :eyes:

[NuttyFluffers]

57. Sweet! Can I put a statue of Vishnu next to baby Jesus?

Maybe I can swaddle baby Jesus in brahmin garb and a bindhi and have a stuffed Quetzalcoatl (feathered flying serpent) curled up around Virgin Mary as a feathered boa.

oh, and i'd like to add a Velvet Elvis painting with Visine tears running down his cheeks being offered by one of the wise men.

y'know, religion not being separate and stuff, might as well smash it all together into one big blob.

[madfloridian]

59. But another of our intelligent, clear-thinking commissioners said.....

last May, I think...that he could not even comprehend having anything referring to the islamic religion since they attacked our buildings.

These guys are really something else. The same who is anti muslim anything....also said during the worst drought Florida ever had that we had NO water problem...no problem at all.

We have a problem here. I called to talk to him. He started his "talking points." I yelled "stop!". Don't you dare use those talking points on me. He got rather quiet, as he was unable to think on his own.

[NuttyFluffers]

62. So I guess a big crescent moon by the guiding star is outta the question?

is he insisting the nativity scene have the characters dressed up in power suits with ties and business dressesin sensible pumps?

and if so... can we cross-dress them?
:evilgrin:

i wanna put lipstick on joseph's lips and the three magi! waaaaahhhh!!

[dansolo]

60. Someone should put a huge menorah on the display

After all, Jesus and Mary and Joseph were all Jewish. I think that in honor of Jesus' religion of birth, all manger scenes should have a prominently displayed menorah in them.

[madfloridian]

63. Update from Tampa Tribune.

http://news.tbo.com/news/MGBVZJ6X03E.html

BARTOW - Polk County commissioners will meet at 8 a.m. today to decide whether a Nativity scene clandestinely put up on county property by members of Bartow's First Baptist Church has to come down.

Another group, identified in a note as ``the Seinfeld Fan Club,'' came by over the weekend and put a ``Festivus for the Rest of Us'' sign up next to the Nativity display. That reference comes from an episode of the television sitcom.

The original display, erected the night of Dec. 15 in front of the Polk County administration building, in Bartow, includes Mary, Joseph, a manger with baby Jesus, a lamb and a snowman. A sign states it is not sanctioned by the county.

County Attorney Joseph Jarrett wrote the church and requested that a representative attend today's meeting and seek permission for the display, adding that putting it up without permission constitutes a trespass. Commissioners had denied by a tie vote a request from another church to erect a Nativity scene. Public reaction has been strong on both sides of the issue.

[alfredo]

64. Over the Hedge explains Christmas to us all.

Don't let the Religious right steal XMas from us.

[madfloridian]

65. LOL

That is so funny.

[alfredo]

66. Their stuff

is consistently funny.

[mitchum]

67. Baptists are never held under the water long enough

[madfloridian]

68. Ok, I can laugh at that.....I was one.

And you are right, and it is sad that they know not what they have become. Half are waking up that Falwell and Co. hijacked their church, the other half are pious and mean-spirited.

Me, I left them.

[soup]

69. kicking, waiting for an update on the situation.

Wonder what solution they came up with when commission met this morning. In the meantime, the lawn is filling up.


Published Wednesday, December 22, 2004
Panel to Address Manger Issue
Commissioners will discuss growing controversy over the holiday displays.

By Jason Geary
The Ledger
[e-mail]

BARTOW -- The Polk County administration building's lawn is filling up fast with displays promoting a fictional holiday, radio personalities and Christianity.

Today, Polk County commissioners are expected to discuss whether to restrict the types of unsolicited displays popping up at the Neil Combee County Administration Building in Bartow.

The controversy began Dec. 15, when a group of Baptist grandparents decided to erect a Nativity scene outside the county building. County Commissioner Randy Wilkinson had pushed for months to erect such a display on county propefrty but failed to sway fellow commissioners.

With the unsanctioned manger in place, two more displays have appeared this week.

The newest one, discovered, Tuesday is a painted plywood sign that says, "Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays." The sign is attributed to local radio personalities Rob Tanner and Tom O'Brien of WPCV 97.5 FM. A radio station representative wasn't able to confirm Tuesday afternoon whether the station accepted responsibility for the sign.
http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041222/NEWS/412220336/1134

[RuleofLaw]

70. Nativity Scene To Remain In Place Until Dec. 27

Update:

http://tbo.com

BARTOW - A controversial Nativity scene can remain in front of a Polk County government building until Dec. 27, county commissioners decided today.
Commissioners voted 4-1 to allow the scene that includes figures of Mary, Joseph and baby Jesus by declaring it a temporary, public forum. However, a sign reading ``Festivus for the Rest of Us'' that showed up next to the Nativity display will be removed, the commissioners decided.

The commissioners said they'll allow the display while a committee studies the possibility of setting aside some county property, perhaps in a park, as a permanent forum for public opinion. Commissioner Bob English cast the lone dissenting vote, saying allowing a Nativity scene in front of a county administration building sets the stage for other groups to put up displays.



Whats most upsetting is that they are taking down the Festivus for the rest of us.

By the way, can anyone follow the logic here:

If you ask for permission and get a no, and then go ahead and do it anyway, you can leave it up. But if you just go ahead a put up a sign, it cannot stay?

[madfloridian]

72. Commissioners' offices...tried to find out.

863-534-6000

Some of us tried to find out the basis for taking down the Festivus sign...one commissioner did not know at all...said talk to the lawyer.

Another seemed unable to figure any of it out, he just knew he was a Christian and that God should be part of our government.

I dare anyone to get a straight answer. Go for it. This is what we live with here daily. This is Jeb Country and God Country, and there is no rational explanation needed.

I was Southern Baptist, I am a Christian, and I am appalled.

[soup]

78. No to 'Festivus for the rest of us'?

But, the original tresspassers' display remains after being told no? This is truly a screwy decision. I don't think logic or legalities had anything to do with it.

[madfloridian]

71. Update: It is illegal, but it can stay.

It is ok to be illegal if you are Christian...is that the message? I have more on the two commissioners who knew about this beforehand. Will find it.

http://www.wesh.com/news/4017654/detail.html

POSTED: 1:06 pm EST December 22, 2004
UPDATED: 1:40 pm EST December 22, 2004

BARTOW, Fla. -- Polk County commissioners made a decision Wednesday to allow a Nativity to remain on display on the lawn at the old Polk County Courthouse -- even though it's public property.
The First Baptist Church of Bartow set it up, without ever asking permission. Another church that asked for a permit was denied.

It's not yet clear what the basis for either decision was, but the County Commission said the Nativity scene can stay right where it is through the weekend.

The manger was erected one week ago. The Rev. Ron Burks of First Baptist admitted they did not have permission, but he said he didn't think it should offend anyone.

"Basically, I would ask you a question, 'What is to be offended by a Nativity scene? A mother and a father and their child,'" Burks said.

But Richard Blank said the baby Jesus violates the separation of church and state.

"This is clearly religious, and it's identified with, in particular, Christianity," Blank said. Blank and the organization Americans United for the Separation of Church and State wanted the manager removed immediately."

A 3rd sign added, supposedly by two radio hosts.

[soup]

80. This is just simply bizarre.

IF they cite first amendment rights for leaving the manger in place, wouldn't that open them to lawsuit from the Seinfeld group and the disc jockeys for taking their displays down?

No tresspass charges? nothing? Just the one display that was blatantly put there in violation can remain, the others are to be taken down...

I am baffled by this.

Makes about as much sense as a snowman in a manger. :crazy:

Thank you for trying to get a response from the commissioners.

[madfloridian]

83. I gather from a friend that IF the Seinfeld clubs asks permission...

they will let them keep the sign. Also the Unitarian church which has up a Zoroaster sign can keep it since they applied.

It is so confusing that people are interpreting it different ways.

I love our Unitarian folks here. Some of them are professors, some doctors. They are so bright and intelligent, and they stand head and shoulders above the fundamentalists who spout such extreme religious nonsense.

I believe our city and county are the breeding grounds for the Southern Baptists who hijacked the church in Jerry Falwall style.

[Johonny]

81. Why

the courthouse? Do Christians in Florida spend a large amount of there time at the courthouse?

[madfloridian]

84. Why? Because they can.

They could have put it in front of their church, like the Methodists and the Presbyterians did. That would not have caused enough controversy.

They did it for attention, they have no grounds for it.

[quaker bill]

79. This is a battle unworthy of our efforts

I would suggest we focus on getting them to stop killing and torturing people first. Once we have that bit under control then we can start looking at nativity scenes on public property.

[madfloridian]

82. I live among these people.

Read my other posts on this thread, and on one GD Politics. My conversation today with some of the commissioners was alarming. They voted strictly along religious lines, they do it all the time. They have taken us over.

They have contempt for anyone who is not into their religious extremism. I don't think we can wait any longer here in our area.

Maybe we will start the fight, maybe others won't bother. We waited too long here.

[sherilocks]

86. I can focus on more than one battle at a time

Holding off the religious zealots from using public land, rather than their own church yard for their religious expression is one of those battles that I choose to participate in. These people will not stop here. They are taking over the public school system, the public libraries, the public museums, and any other institution where they can spread their religious zeal, while we the citizenry get the bill, regardless of our personal beliefs.

[madfloridian]

88. Still think this is not mixing religion and politics? Read this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2861270