Rumfeld War Crimes Trial Starts in Germany

[nascarblue]

While the right-wingers argue among themselves over the future of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld —whether, for example, to be upset because he signs death notices to military families by machine—a German court is in the early stages of hearing a case brought by German and American public-interest groups accusing Rumsfeld of being a war criminal because of his handling of the Abu Ghraib prison.

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0451/mondo1.php

[Jo March]

1. I hope this goes all the way

-snip--"In addition to Rumsfeld, the suit names Presidential Medal of Freedom winner George Tenet (the former CIA director); Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence Steven Cambone; Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez, the army's top commander in Iraq during the prisoner-abuse scandal; Brigadier General Janis Karpinski (the commander of the jail guards); and five other military officers who served in Iraq." --snip

Can Tenet take his medal with him to prison?

[TexasChick]

2. I didn't think Germany had the means to do anything to these neoCON

thugs in the WH? I wonder if they will really be able to do anything to Rumsfailed or will this just be a trial w/o punishment? Thanks.

[forgethell]

6. This is more serious than

the mock "trials" that university professors in Japan and Sweden, etc. are always puttting on to push some political point. But my guess is that if Germanhy pursues this very far, they will very much regret it. they don't have the power to hold Rummy to account.

[Renew Deal]

3. Send him to the Hague

or wherever the Germans want to put him. I wonder if he will not be able to travel if convicted.

[Kellanved]

4. there is no "Rumfeld War Crimes Trial "

At this time there is only a complaint filed at the Federal Prosecutor General's office.

I'd be extremely surprised, should it lead to a trial - even if the Prosecutor General would decide to sue, the court would almost certainly not accept it.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vidar]

5. Cheering the Germans wildly. It's only symbolism because the

infallible US won't recognize any jurisdiction but its own; but symbolism can start revolutions, which is about what we need.

[forgethell]

7. Just out of curiosity

why should the US recognize any authority but its own as concerning its political leaders and foreign policies?? Spare me the moral arguments, I've heard them all, and I even agree with some of them. But they are the most powerful country on earth. No other country would let the United States call the shots for them. Why is the United States any different? Right or wrong,why should we consult other countries about our own interests.

Rather than hoping the Belgians, Germans, French, UN, etc. will correct American ways, we should fight as hard as we can here. Seeing as how we have discovered in the last election that holding other countries up as moral judges on the USA only pisses the electors off, why don't we use some logic in our arguments. Saying, "we are the only civilized nation with a death penalty", or "the UN (read France) didn't approve this war" simply does not seem to ring a bell with most of the voters. And it is not a logical argument. It is an emotional one. There are logical arguments for liberal positions, it's just that they are so seldom made.

Excuse the rant.

Merry Christmas

[FizzFuzz]

9. I think the urge to consult other countries concerning our own trajectory

is because we're on a train running out of control, and our political process here has been dismantled. Our own public servants are harming us or seem to be impotent.

We are feeling lost, endangered and willfully ignored, so makes sense to me that the next "step" is to look to outside powers for support.

So, that's my take on the question.

[forgethell]

10. We lost a few elections.

when we controlled all 3 branches of the government, you didn't see the conservatives all lost, and alone, and begging other countries to come help them. They got up off the ground, and this is where we are today. In any event, however, I feel American foreign policy should be run for American interests, not those of other countries. The fight is between Americans. It's not like they want our input into how to run their foreign policies.

And then there's this: don't the organizations and German government simply make themselves look ridiculous by trying to pull off something that has absolutely no chance of going anywhere? They can convict Rummy, he'll simply never go to Germany again. Big loss!! What is it they say, "never give an order that you know won't be obeyed." Moral preening is for the unserious among us.

You may give the counter-example of Pinochet. But his own country has turned against him. His crimes include extra-judicial murders (assuming he is guilty, of course, or does "presumption of innocence" not apply in international law. He is old, powerless, and in ill-health. Rummy is none of these.

[Hunter_1253]

12. The point is...

that the US is part of the world community, and it's important to have the world community chastise our leaders when they fuck up royally and don't get punished by our own means (ex. in the press, not re-elected, impeachment, revolution, etc.). The days of solitude and covering only your own ass as a country are over, simply because technology and innovation have made the Earth a small place. If the US can't act like a big kid and behave on the world stage, then we need a time out. Sanctions, war crimes trials, protests, trade restrictions, and the like are the tools to make the US behave better...and if we can't regulate ourselves because of runaway politics and fundamentalists then we're going to need help from our brothers and sisters abroad. I welcome this trial, even if it's never going to be able to actually imprison or punish Rummy and his croonies, because it draw light to things that BushCo doesn't want you to see.

[forgethell]

17. then other countries won't

mind if we chastise them, ummm???

[nascarblue]

20. Exactly right Hunter...

...I think this would be very good if it happens. Other countries have been very vocal about what Bush and co. and it hasn't been enough. When I talk to friends in Canada, Spain, and Australia, they get much more news than we do and they're shocked that Americans are so asleep at the wheel. 1st they blamed it all on Bush..now they don't.

Also, this isn't all Germans. If you read the article, it's an American civil rights organization that pushed it in Germany because Germany has very specific war laws since Hitler.

[Vidar]

13. Other countries recognize the World Court, the Geneva Convention,

th Kyoto Accords etc. The US has been bullying its allies not to allow war criminal status to apply to Americans. We are increasingly a rogue state to which international law and signed treaties mean nothing. I agree we should clean our own house, but because of corruption, fraud and political cowardice, that isn't happening in any meaningful way. I fervently applaud the the Americans such as Cobb, Conyers & Jackson who stand up to our dictator & also applaud any foreign government that will do likewise.

[forgethell]

18. Kyoto doesn't

apply to the USA because we haven't ratified it. So we are not in violation of international law. I don't consider it bullying if we refuse aid to people for any reason. We DON'T have to give it, and if they think it interferes with them, then they don't have to take it.

I think, yes, we should applaud those Americans who would hold our political leaders accountable, but other countries should not be trying to interfere with internal political disputes. As for Rumsfeld, well we'll see what happens, but my bet is the German government will squash this thing, sooner rather than later.

[Vidar]

22. How are war crimes committed in Iraq American internal affairs?.

[tom_paine]

16. By that logic, Germany did right up through 1945

After all, how DARE other nations try to pass judgement on German Policies?

And nobody is suggesting that this should be binding, although a Nuremburg-style trial at the Hauge should.

As far as other nations bowing to the International Court, doe sthe name Milosevic ring a bell? He was the George W. Bush of Serbia, but not as Kind and Gentle our Fuhrer.

I'm not sure we learned anything from the last "election" except that Goebbels v2.0 (updated for different nation & different time -- same demonization strategies though not directly racist or violent) still works and that the Amerikan "Voting" System is as fucked up (or more as the Ukraine) but we don't have the balls to stand up for ourselves as they did.

Isn't it funny how Exit Polling works in the Ukraine, Georgia (the Russian one, not the Dumbfuckistan one) and worked in the Old Republic of America from 1964-1998 but suddenly STOPPED working only in Imperial Amerika 2000-2004.

(though it seems to still work in the Ukraine 2004 and Georgia 2003, eh?)

NO ONE will correct our ways except us, and we have gone full circle from the men and women who defeated Hitler to those who licked his boots (not to mention the same kind of people who lick the ORIGINAL King George's boots).

However, I do think Amerikans will make EXCELLENT Neighborhood Spies and Camp Guards.

And a Happy Festivus to you too!

[forgethell]

21. The difference is

that Germany lost a war. So did Milosevic. They got captured. OK, if Germany is willing to invade the USA to capture Rummy, let 'em. I'll cheer them on. But until they do, they are doing moral preening. Totally ridiculous.

As far as I can make out, the USA is not bound by the ICC because they refused to sign the treaty. And they are acting legally in signing treaties between other countries not to subject American troops to the court. Maybe they are acting wrongly, but that is not the same thing as illegally.

As long as we have sovereign nation states, the acts of others cannot bind non-signatory nations.

[dummy-du1]

23. Interesting

But it could be, that the Germans won't understand this reasoning, because that's what they were told by Justice Jackson in Nuremberg:


We must make clear to the Germans that the wrong for which their fallen leaders are on trial is not that they lost the war, but that they started it. And we must not allow ourselves to be drawn into a trial of the causes of the war, for our position is that no grievances or policies will justify resort to aggressive war. It is utterly renounced and condemned as an instrument of policy.

I therefore want to make clear to the American people that we have taken an important step forward in this instrument in fixing individual responsibility of war-mongering, among whatever peoples, as an international crime. We have taken another in recognizing an international accountability for persecutions, exterminations, and crimes against humanity when associated with attacks on the peace of the international order.


I heard, that the lawyers and judges, that were involved in the Nuremberg Tribunal, are now advising and educating Iraqi judges, so they can try Saddam Hussein. Long live the Hypocritical States of America...

[forgethell]

24. But if

the Germans had won, he would never have been saying any such thing, would he???

Don't try to read more into what I am saying than is actually there. But, yes, I agree with you, war crimes have always been a very hypocritical area. To prove my point about having to lose a war, why have no communists been hauled before an international tribunal? Their crimes are excessive, yet not only do we not hear of any trials, we hear no outcry for them. Hypocrisy?? You be the judge.

[Ironpost]

11. Good news, It has to start somewhere

Thank you Germany. We helped you then, we need you to help us now.

[gandalf]

14. Don't overestimate German's attorney general

As far as I can see, this guy, Kay Nehm, is a great supporter of the "war on terror". I think it is impossible to hope he will indict Rumsfeld.

[nascarblue]

15. If they find him guilty, the rightwing media HAS to cover it. Thank god!

This is exactly the way to force the media to do it's job. Just like the Canada case. They also have refiled in Canada now that the new memos have come out and this time it has been accepted from what Ive read.

[gandalf]

19. Stop dreaming. The heading is simply WRONG.

The trial did not start. He even has not been indicted, and he will not be indicted.

They handed the complaint to Germany's federal prosecutors. To indict Rumsfeld is a political question, not a legal issue.

[MissBrooks]

25. Boy, those german's have balls!

Germans will judge us on War Crimes?

That should keep me laughing til dinner.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

26. Germans faced their demons and paid reparations

are you defending Rumsfeld's actions?