What's with this phony issue of "Taking Christ out of Christmas"

[Sandpiper]

Other than the most obvious questions of "did Jesus ever tell anyone to commemorate his birth" and "don't we have more important things to worry about" where did this non issue come from?

While the fundies like to hammer away at the secularist strawman who supposedly takes Christ out of Christmas, have they ever stopped to think that Christmas, as it is celebrated now, is a lot more about crass commercialism and keeping the gears of the capitalist machinery moving than it is about Christ?

Have they ever read the New Testament story about Jesus clearing the merchants out of the temple courtyard to see what Jesus thought about co-mingling religion with commericialism?

Do they really think that Jesus would be pleased to have the biggest season of buying and selling of the entire year associated with his name?

I would propose that commercial retailers have done more to take Christ out of Christmas than any secularist ever could.

[Obviousman]

1. They are just spending "Political Capital"

Nothing more.

[Dora]

22. At the rate they're spending this so-called capital...

They'll be bankrupt before Easter.

[Wisc Badger]

2. Well Stated.

:toast:

[eaprez]

3. its phoney like you said...designed to keep Bush's base....

...wringing their hands over some religious issue while ignoring the war and the cuts that are coming to their state and local budgets.

[SharonAnn]

28. But Bush closed his press conference with "Happy Holidays!" twice!

[eaprez]

35. But what?

Shows he doesn't even give much credence to the stupid argument. They just use the people they inflame...all they want is their vote.

[Maple]

4. Yeah but if you can blame it

on the 'secularists', it diverts attention away from retailers making hay on it.

[eaprez]

5. its phoney like you said...designed to keep Bush's base....

...wringing their hands over some religious issue while ignoring the war and the cuts that are coming to their state and local budgets.

[knowbody0]

6. diversion

scott peterson, robert blake, baby jesus

[4MoreYearsOfHell]

7. Wedge issue of the week

got to make sure the God-fearing sheeple know who the real the REAL enemy is - the leftist, librul commie horde...

[DBoon]

8. Phony issues drive out real issues

The political equivalent of Gresham's law

And the phonier the issue, the more real issues will suffer.

[On the Road]

9. I Don't Think You'd Find Any Disagreement

among the "Christ in Christmas" folks. A generation ago commercialism was condemned. Now it's moved on to "Merry Christmas" and nativity scenes on public property. Just another phase of the same refrain.

It's not a nonissue to a lot of people. In fact, it's the type of issue Democrats have to be especially wary of precisely because it seems so unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

[evil genius]

10. of course, never mind that xmas merely subjugated that latin holiday

of Saturnalie, which was the roman winter festival that the early xtians couldn't convince the romans to give up...

[imax2268]

11. it's a distraction

by Rove...

[AllegroRondo]

12. Have they ever stopped to think - most Christmas traditions are Pagan

Christmas trees, mistletoe, etc are all taken from Pagan traditions.

Heck, even the date was set to line up with the Pagan winter solstice celebration.

[Sandpiper]

13. Or the fact that it was invented by the "Evil" Catholic Church

A good 3 centuries after Jesus' time.

[sandnsea]

24. Ooooh, rubbing hands together...

THAT could be FUN! What we could all do is get all kinds of Catholic statuary and put in our lawns. The kind of stuff that really drives the fundies wild! Could you imagine what they'd do if half of America suddenly had distinctly Catholic displays in their yards? Bwahhhahhahaha!!!!

[Johonny]

31. Evil?

Oh yeah it's post election so Catholics are evil again. I forget the Catholic church is only ok in an election year.

[Sandpiper]

37. I put "evil" in quotes for a reason

The reason is because most evangelical protestants (the ones making the Christ in Christmas noise) do consider the Catholic church to be evil.

I would say I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, but since you're just looking to feed your martyr complex, no apology is in order.

[girl gone mad]

32. 3 centuries? Try 15!

Catholics didn't co-opt the pagan holiday festivals until sometime in the early 1500s. I guess they decided if you can't beat them, copy them.

[BOSSHOG]

14. The Republican Party knows their base must always

be in a position to consider themselves victims. And especially victims of whatever the hell liberals do. I have asked christians in my little town to show me "in the constitution" where it says christians have the inalienable right to be regaled with christian music and christian signs while they engage in retail debauchery. It is so much fun fucking with morons. For the record, they are still searching for the answer.

[Sandpiper]

16. It's right under the part where

The Constitution says that the United States is a Christian Nation, founded on the ten commandments and teachings of the bible.

[gottaB]

15. several facets of the new "white martyrdom"

1. Fundamentalists are opposed to secular government. They view the establishment clause not as a constitutional guarantee of religious liberty, but the root of a new era of religious persecution.

2. Conservatives will jump at any excuse to bash liberals.

3. Diversion.

4. There is a political advantage for rightwing conservatives in making the issue of religious persecution ambiguous. How so? Abu Ghraib.

5. Part of a defensive strategy to discredit civil libertarians and particularly the ACLU. Parallel to attacks on the UN.

[Sandpiper]

18. One of the first strategies of fascism

Is make the majority feel victimized by:

Intellectuals, secularists, progressives, or some disfavored minority group.

It makes me fear for what lies in store for this country.

[gottaB]

29. The "f" word is not inappropriate

I predict increased marginalization and suppression of minority and dissident views as the rightwing seeks to break apart the coalition of interests protecting our civil liberties. Bourgeois Christian martyrs will not come to the defense of athiests and other unpopular groups on the front lines in the battle to uphold the First Amendment, either because they are preoccupied with their own tribulations, or because they are consumed by hatred. This polity of course is not a natural outgrowth of the American system, which is founded on principles of religious freedom, strict separation of secular and religious spheres, and acceptance of refugees from religious persecution from all parts of the globe. The American tendency has been and remains towards pluralism. The fundamentalists, however, have powerful allies, and with the mass media at their disposal, they can manufacture the semblance of a polity, bourgeois Christian martyrs, that will serve their purposes nicely.

In the coming years, expect some states to emerge as sanctuaries of liberty, while others become dungeons of rightwing fundamentalist orthodoxy. The Republic has been dealt a mortal blow, and is even now being ravaged by beasts.

[Nikepallas]

17. To keep the country divided.

Think about it this way. During the election you had the divide whose who are Patroitic Americans or Kerry supporters (liberals) now they need another reason to keep people divided. So either you want to say Merry Christmas or you want to take Christmas from people.

After Christmas it will be another issue. BUSHCO is just terrified that if Liberals and conservatives start to talk they will realize that hey we really want the same thing- - peace, love, happiness, shelter, warmth, and a way to take care of our families.


If they can get a civil war of some sort going in this country they would be happy because no one is watching them or telling them "NO".

[RUDUing2]

19. what is really funny is that the early church did not

celebrate the birth of christ..they celebrated the resurrection of christ...

[Cogito ergo doleo]

25. And Bush supports a group wanting to remove crosses from churches

Someone posted this link last night. http://gadflyer.com/articles/?ArticleID=258

The Cross is the symbol of the resurrection. Everything is unfathomable anymore. Shock and Awe.

[lawladyprof]

20. I expect the merchants and manufacturers are more pleased

by this Christ out of Christmas brou-ha-ha than they were by the make-Christmas-more-spiritual (less commercial) movement.

[ComerPerro]

21. These people are right. Lets help them spread their message

by telling everyone you know that conservatives want to put the Christ back in Christmas.

That means that they are against Santa Claus, gift giving, Christmas Trees, and Christmas Carols such as "Jingle Bells" because they don't specificaly mention Jesus.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

23. Noise to keep the base engaged. Much ado about nothing. nt

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

26. Well, someone has to keep the CRAZY XTIAN FUNDIES up in arms...

The Repukes and their Religious Right lackeys are ONLY powerful when confronted with a common enemy...and, I guess that enemy is secular humanism.

What puzzles me is the complicity that the media is playing in trumping-up this faux issue.

JB

[disconnected]

27. he wasn't even born in december anyway

Great Post. I think Jesus would most definitely NOT want anything to do with Christmas. I really need a bumper sticker that says something like Christ has nothing to do with $$$$$$mas, or something along those lines.

[Jacobin]

30. Christianity is based on and thrives upon martrydom

They all strive to be martyrs of some type. So when they all act like assholes, join up with the Likkudnicks and get us into military quagmires and run around like Judge Moore, and want to merge church and state to start Armageddon, and people don't like it, then they freak and claim to be martyrs.

They are a bunch of psychopathic asshats.

[doc03]

33. That's all the wingnuts have been talking about lately. I heard one

this morning going off on John Lennon's "Imagine". You know, imagine there is no heaven or no religion. We have to have religion so we can be justified in hateing and killing everyone.

[Piperay]

34. They have it all their way

yet they are STILL the victims. :eyes: I guess they feel they make more headway when they are underfire, they need to get a life and leave the rest of us the fuck alone. :grr:

[jesusq]

36. New Lyrics for Frosty the Snowman

Frosty the Snowman
was Jesus' very best friend
and sat there melting by the cross
and he stayed there till the end ...

[librechik]

38. It's all made up, part of the propoganda plan to demonize us

this week it's Xmas. Next up, we're the commie boomer pigs taking your Social Security check away by maliciously retiring en masse. All part of the ten (or whatever)step plan to destroy liberalism forever. I'm serious.

[sampsonblk]

39. Bush people think their constituents are stupid

And I know some of them. And some of them are. And they are eating this crap up.

Little do they know there's a little catastrophe going on in a place called Iraq... All some of them care about is making sure every single public school in America gets to show a nativity scene if they want to.

Pathetic. Easily distracted. Ridiculous.