So suicide bombers are simply crazy, not fighting for their beliefs

[Judi Lynn]

We're supposed to think they HAVE no strong beliefs or a great rage against any cruelty visited upon them and their countrymen. We have done absolutely nothing to hack them off. They are simply eaten up with envy over our wealth and freedom. They are too lazy to get jobs and get some cash for themselves.

So, in their vast craziness, delusional, half-assed general nuttiness, they are sometimes know to just "go off," and blow themselves up, eaten up with envy, and try to murder a lot of other people, in the process.

They are so crazy they don't mind getting killed because they believe they will get "laid" right away in the world to come, and spend eternity in carnal pursuits, and lying on their backs, having the many virgins peeling grapes for them.

Is there anyone in this country REALLY stupid enough to believe anything this derrogatory and nasty about people we've never met? Is there anyone out there who doesn't grasp the fact we've been fed the most preposterous load in an attempt to disrespect people the _Bush people want to destroy? We won't be tempted to give a hang if we look down on them to start with, right?

Sorry, I had to vent. I just saw Richard Myers with Rumsfeld in one of their pretended meetings with the press in which they would tell the "truth" to the public watchdogs.

I can't answer any later posts as I'm really tied up today. I'll check back in later.

By the way, there IS a similar reference to females waiting for warriors lost in battle in Norse mythology, the Valkyrie. WHITE peeps. Apparently if it hadn't been for the great "civilizing" influence of "Christianity," those Norwegian, Swedish folk would still be hanging on to their myth of Valkyrie escorting fallen warriors to Valhalla, too.

[knowbody0]

1. 25,000,000 crazy iraqis

[RUDUing2]

2. exactly..and the US didn't invade Iraq and it is not occupying the

country now and the Iraqi Government isn't a puppet of the US...and two people w/kids can live on minimum wage....and outsourcing is good for the economy....etc etc etc....

[Sandpiper]

3. They're not humans

They're just a bunch of crazy nuts who want to reject the freedom that our brave soldiers are so benevolently offering.

[Goathead]

4. Arabs and Muslims have been dehumanized

The right wing media and Bush have taken away their humanity. People like Falwell saying "Blow them away in the name of the Lord" has made them nonentities. That is why Marine killbots have problems with killing cats and dogs, but no problem killing small children and unarmed civilians.

[northzax]

5. Suicide bombers are, in fact crazy

and abused people. it is not normal to kill oneself in order to kill others, no matter what the circumstance. You'll notice that rarely is the person who came up with the idea for the suicide bombing the one strapping himself (or herself) into the harness.

[plcdude]

9. I think you are taking

a very one-sided approach to this issue. Martyrdom, desparation, and giving up one's life for one's deeply held belief system is not foreign to our way of thinking. When we believe the cause to be vital and moral, we do not hesitate to call these individuals hero. I think it naive to just call them abused and crazy.

[northzax]

21. not my view of it at all

a hero is someone who is willing to die, but prefers to live. Suicide bombers, Kamikaze pilots, whatever, want to die for their cause. The US has never employed pure suicide tactics, there have been 'suicide missions' like the one that killed Joe Kennedy, but the soldier did not HAVE to die to accomplish their mission. In order to accomplish the mission of a suicide bomber, the bomber must die. That is anethema to me, and to just about every major religion. The only religion I can think of that embraces, unequivocally, suicide for the sake of suicide is Japanese Ancestor Worship. And that has fallen out of favour.

Suicide is equally banned in Islam as it is in Christianity and Judaism. This is not martyrdom, that is conferred on someone when they are killed for their beliefs, not when they kill themselves for there beliefs.

Someone who sacrafices their life for another can be a hero, true enough, a soldier who falls on a grenade, a firefighter rushing into a burning building, a pedestrian who pushes a child out of the path of a bus, only to be struck himself. But that is heroism because the sacrifice was not intentional, the person did not intend to die, only to save someone else.

What suicide bombings do show is that life is bad enough for some people that they can be convinced that it is better to die than keep on living. That is a sympton of a sick society.

[plcdude]

31. then I ask

how many suicide bombers existed in Iraq prior to this occupation?

[northzax]

37. who knows?

obviously things are different today in Iraq than they were 36 months ago. The society is in turmoil, to put it lightly, and the religious groups are no longer under persecution from the government to such a strong extent (Saddam kept them under his thumb, the US occupation is not doing so)

All that aisde, it doesn't change the fact that there are two sicknesses at play here. The first is someone willing to kill themselves while taking others with them. definition of mental illenss. the second is someone who would send someone else to kill themselves, definition of a sociopath, at the very least.

[Jacobin]

20. So, covert U.S. missions which are 'volunteer only' and bound

to lead to death are "heroic" whereas, insurgents, fighting with the only weapons they have who die while fighting are 'crazy'.

Neat how we encapsulate things to deny reality.

[northzax]

29. let me make it a little simpler

engaging in a planned action that will inevitably, without alternative lead to your own death upon success is suicide and cowardly.

If the US sent someone on a covert mission and said "ok, bob, go out there and kill Steve and then put your gun in your mouth and kill yourself, cause we're never going to come get you and if you try to come back, I'll kill you myself." then that would be the equvalent of suicide.

Suicide bombings have a 100% fatality risk for the bomber if the mission is successful. Sane groups do not plan missions that way. There is always at least an attmept to escape. otherwise, no, it's not heroic, it's a waste of life.

Suicide is always the cowardly way out of a situation. That doesn't mean it's not, in certain circumstances, the best solution for someone (self-euthenasia, for instance) but it's not brave to say "this world sucks so much I'd rather be dead."

sorry.

[plcdude]

43. You have sort of

a hollywood viewpoint that is not realistic to me. I have seen men stay and cover a retreat of a company in Vietnam and everyone knew this was suicide or turned their swiftboat directly into the line of fire almost certain that death would follow. When you enter a fire zone you are often times reconciled that you are about to die. When you take point you know that your chance of survival is less than those behind you, but you believe that you can give up your life for the cause and for the others with you. War is worse than hell and is not nor ever has been about suicide. It is about dying and it is horrendous.

[northzax]

51. sure, it's all a mental difference

but there is a difference between killing youself and getting killed by someone else. the people you mention were willing to take an overwhelming chance of dying in order to SAVE others, not kill others. And their death was not an integral part of what they were doing, they didn't have to die to accomplish their objective, in fact, dying reduced their chances of accomplishing their objective.

The person guarding the retreat, in your example, died protecting someone else, killing may have been a part of that. Notice your use of the word 'almost'.

If there is no difference between dying for someone and dying to kill someone in your mind, then we should stop this discussion right now.

[plcdude]

52. Have you fought in a war?

nt

[northzax]

53. why does that matter?

either deliberatly, and with malice aforthought, blowing yourself up to kill others is sane, or it isn't. why does my fighting in a war have to do with that?

I say it isn't. you say it is. reasonable people can disagree, unless you are planning to blow yourself and me up. than I have to pass.

[plcdude]

55. because

ultimately you have to be there to understand that it is not a simple choice of "it is sane" or "it isn't". Sanity is not really the issue in war. Death is the point of war both yours and the enemy and I would deliberately with malice aforethought for the enemy give up my life for my beliefs and for my people. The mere act of engaging in war is an act of suicide. The important part is why engage.

[northzax]

56. see, we're not talking about the same thing

decisions made in combat are significantly different that planned activities. make a decision to die in battle is significantly different than making a decision, in advance, to kill yourself.

suicide bombers, as they are acting in Iraq (and Israel) are not in battle at the time they make their decision, they plan it in advance, and that planning involves their own certain death.

This is why the battle question is meaningless in this situation, this is not a decision made in the heat of battle, it is a cold calculation, that takes weeks of planning.

[plcdude]

57. battle

in war is not an event it is the condition one is in all the time. And you make plans that include you as the weapon of destruction for the enemy. I choose not to describe the individual who exposed his position knowing he would die in order to kill the enemy as a suicide.

[northzax]

59. ok, if you can't tell the difference, and it appears you can't

than stop using the word 'suicide bombings' at all.

[plcdude]

60. I hope that you never

experience war and understand what I am talking about.

[northzax]

63. we agree on something

I hope I am never dehumanized to the point where I can no longer tell the difference between suicide and self-sacrifice. I am sorry you have reached that point.

[nascarblue]

66. Plus, left with the option of long term torture, they'd rather die...

I can understand that too. Remember, it's not just the photos, they would protest in front of the 4 different protests every day for months. Finally they did release some of them. You don't think the whole country got the details of torture?

[Tempest]

6. As long as they are considered crazy

And that they hate us for our freedom, the U.S. will continue to step into quagmires without having a clue.

[pnutchuck]

22. They don't hate us for our freedoms

they hate our imperialism, our rape of their lands, our robbery of their treasures, and our cultural influence. It may be difficult for most Americans to comprehend, but capitalism and consumerism is considered evil in many countries. Although I don't agree with their mysogeny and class systems, we don't have the right to impose our "values" on other cultures through war and occupation. We have organizations that work to oppose these oppressions through peaceful negotiations and sanctions.

[Tempest]

25. That's what I said

But as long as that's what people believe, the U.S. will never win the war on terrorism. And will only make it worse.

[The_Casual_Observer]

7. Freepers seem to believe that they worship an evil god who hates

their freedoms and that the real god is with the freepers. From a distance, the ground battle seems to be between who has the real god, while in the mean time, the businessmen are busy controlling the oil.

[Viktor Runeberg]

8. Anyone willing to kill themselves for their cause

should.

But if they kill others in doing so, their families should be exterminated up to 2nd or 3rd cousins. I'm sorry, but there's never any excuse for suicide bombing, and the punishments must be the most severe possible, since suicide bombing is a severe threat to the continuation (or attainment) of open and free civilization.

The Iraq war has been badly commanded, but it was a good thing to liberate people from Saddam, and it's a good thing to kill those who won't accept that their fellow country people are being liberated.

And no, I'm not a Republican. Bush has committed war crimes and should be tried. But, as with other kinds of crime, some crimes are worse than others. Suicide bombing is the worst of all, short of launching nukes in a first strike (basically a sort of suicide bombing anyhow).

[Jesus H. Christ]

10. There's a crazy post.

Should the families of US troops be exterminated up to 2nd or 3rd cousins?

Or is it just bad when muslims kill other people?

[plcdude]

13. exterminate

is interesting choice of word. Killing families for the acts of one of its members is a remarkable position to take but then it worked when we did it to American Indian didn't it? Wow where are we as a people going?

[NoPasaran]

14. "their families should be exterminated up to 2nd or 3rd cousins"

Collective punishment. How very civilized of you.

[pnutchuck]

32. I am a pacifist

but I can see the reasoning behind suicide bombs. These are impoverished people who have been disenfranchised and have no other means of retaliation other than their own suicide. I do not advocate violence in any way, not even as revenge as in the post 9/11 attack on Afghanistan. I don't believe death will bring about a feeling of relief. But these people have been displaced, impoverished, and have been given no other options except their own death and perhaps they can take a few of the oppressors with them. The US has trained many of these terrorists organizations as well as funded them. They then serve our purpose and we leave them with only the knowledge of how to commit terrorists attacks.

[nascarblue]

64. Whats the revenge for having your dad tortured? Your house bombed?

Your neighborhood napalmed, your kids burned and maimed? What should they do for revenge? If youre saying that a suicide bomber who's only weapon is an AK 47 going up against tanks, planes, napalm, cluster bombs, DU, chemical bombs, nail bombs, etc... Come on! YOu have to look at it objectively and quit making it a jewish v arab thing.

If even ONE bomb was dropped on your neighborhood, you wouldnt hear the end of it for years.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

11. Paradox.

You can be crazy and hold profound beliefs. I'm not suggesting that suicide bombers are crazy. As you suggested these are people we don't know. But I don't have any trouble describing their actions as destructive, anymore than I have a problem judging the actions of an American who bombs a village somewhere in Iraq because he's under orders to do so. Neither are absolved of destroying the lives of often innocent people. Most of those in Iraq who have been the target of suicide bombers are Iraqis.

[m0nkeyneck]

12. ne1 that...

straps explosives to themselves and kills innocent women and children are crazy; regardless of their beliefs.. this isn't a red vs. blue issue, it's a normal human conduct vs. perverse disgraceful behavior

…Referring to suicide bombers in general; not necessarily in Iraq

[Jesus H. Christ]

15. You're right, it's so much worse than dropping bombs out of planes...

that kill women and children.

[m0nkeyneck]

17. i don't recall making that comparison

..but that sux too

[Jesus H. Christ]

19. That's my point, you're ignoring it.

It's crazy insanity when muslims do it, it's A-OK, Number 1, God Bless America heroism when Americans do it.

[m0nkeyneck]

23. actually i think words are being inserted into my post but..

whatever

ne1 that targets & attacks innocent ppl w/ the intent to kill is despicable..

happy now?

[Jesus H. Christ]

26. How do you mean "innocent people"

Is that innocent as in the people of Fallujah, or the people of NYC?

[m0nkeyneck]

34. um...

innocent people

[Jesus H. Christ]

35. Yeah, I know what the technical definitions are.

In the vernacular, "innocent people" usually only refers to white christians, while the innocent muslim people are just "collateral damage."

[m0nkeyneck]

38. sorry you see it that way..

never crossed my mind.. innocent ppl are innocent ppl regardless of who they are, where they live, or what their religion may be. Sux that ppl have to die over idiots struggling for power.. on both sides

[VioletLake]

41. You see it as a struggle for power?

How noble. I see it as a rape.

[m0nkeyneck]

44. isn't rape about power over the victim?

[Jesus H. Christ]

45. Don't rape victims struggle?

Does that mean you consider the rapist an innocent victim?

[VioletLake]

47. Yes,

but "idiots struggling for power" isn't the same as saying "a criminal struggling to impose his will on his victim."

I like how we're clarifying the definition together. ;)

[NoPasaran]

18. It's a whole lot less perverse disgraceful behavior

To fire high explosives at them from a safe distance or drop bombs on them from the sky I suppose.

[nascarblue]

16. That always got to me too. I mean just imagine

If you were bombed non-stop, house destroyed, neighborhood poisoned with DU nuclear waste, your family killed, brother tortured, country ripped off, etc. I could see if the roles were reversed, anyone here might do the same thing. When you're up against tanks, jets, cluster bombs, napalm, hospitals bombed, ambulances snipered, drones, etc. what else are you going to do?

[Hippo_Tron]

24. Both sides that are fighting are dishonorable

Bush is dishonorable for launching an illegal war in the interest of profit. The leaders of the insurgency are dishonorable because they have no interest in creating a free Iraq, they just want to install themselves as the leaders of a totalitarian society. The result, two sides fighting over control of something that the Iraqi people don't really want either of them to control.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jesus H. Christ]

28. What's the difference?

I mean, except that the Iraqis aren't fighting to lower their taxes.

[prosecutr1960]

30. grew up in Israel

I do know a little about suicide bombers. I lived in Israel for 22 years and go back 4 or 5 times a year to visit family. This is what they do when there's a suicide bomber: The dead bomber usually leaves a note, video etc to claim credit. As soon as they know his/her identity, which is usually in a few hours, they go to the bomber's family's home with a bulldozer and demolish it! They then take ALL the male relatives , age 17 and older, and put them in prison for the rest of their lives. They publicize the family name and adresses and pictures of any women survivors, and they are treated as pariahs. Shop owners won't sell to them, restaurants won't serve them, etc so they finally leave. I always thought it was very effective. If the USA starts getting suicide bombers, maybe we should give it a try!! It really works.

[Jesus H. Christ]

33. Ah, you mean collective punishment.

Just like the nazis.

[prosecutr1960]

46. exactly!!

[Jesus H. Christ]

50. Ah, so you're saying you're an Israeli nazi?

That's a neat trick. Are you also a compassionate conservative?

[nascarblue]

58. Hilarious... The whole true key to this whole mess is Israel.

If the US was to publically chastise Israel and acknowledge Israel's hypocrisy, I think opinions in the arab world would change, even after Iraq. Israel has been caught way too many times, they're the big problem in this world IMO. (No offense)
Remember they were trying to bomb the Mexican Congress one month after 9-11-01? And then they were mysteriously released after Isreal flew some of Sharons envoys? We never hear about that anymore. Israel is THE big problem.



As reported in La Vox De Aztlan, two men, one of them a former Israeli Colonel and Mossad agent, were arrested INSIDE the Mexican congress carrying 9mm pistols and dynamite, but were released following intense pressure from the Israeli Embassy.


Army General and Head of the PGR Releases Two Israelis
Arrested With Guns and Explosives Inside the Mexican Congress
By Ernesto Cienfuegos La Voz de Aztlan
October 15, 2001
http://www.rense.com/general17/mossadagentsarrested.htm

http://english.pravda.ru/main/2001/10/13/17982.html

[Karenca]

70. yes, kill their little brothers,

and dehumanize their moms.

How very enlightened of you!

[m0nkeyneck]

36. i don't think ne1 has the solution yet..

couldn't imagine living in a place where you have to worry about being blown to pieces on ur way 2 the store. ppl suck

[pnutchuck]

39. That's what Bushco wants you to believe

remember all the color coded terror alerts pre election?

[m0nkeyneck]

40. so suicide bombers and war are all a big hoax?

i don't give a shit what bush wants me 2 believe.. i tune the guy out; it's nice

[pnutchuck]

42. I still am of the belief that Bush knew of 9/11 before it happened

but needed the unifying tragedy to maintain his presidency and push forward his agenda in Iraq. Why have their been no more coded alerts post election? Or am I the only one that's picked up on that?

[m0nkeyneck]

49. possible.. but we'll prolly never know the real truth

which could be anything from a vast government conspiracy to just a bunch of fundies trying to kill ppl.

[nascarblue]

62. i think one day we could know the truth...

Think about it... too many people had to know. From NY and the building 7 collapsing when it wasn't even hit. Giuliana had all that reinforcement done to his command center there. To the those firemen who have finally come forward and admitted to finding the blackboxes and turning them over to the FBI. To people at the Pentagon, witnesses who saw the bomb at the mall, Cheney refusing to leave the whitehouse even though the secret service suspected an attack on the Whitehouse.. and on and on..There really is so much info.

Check out this new DVD thats free online...The guy is offering anyone $100,000 dollars for an explanation on how the buildings could have collapsed from a fire. That includes not just the twin towers, but the 47 story building 7 that was in the plaza two blocks away.

http://reopen911.org/pictures_and_videos.htm#1

[nascarblue]

61. I have no doubts about it... And I think only two of the planes

..were hijacked. One of the hijackers had died two years before, and many were and are still alive. Here's a link that claims possibly 9 were still alive. I studied the verifications and I'd say for sure from the evidence at least 6.


Here's a list of all 19 with information on their status.
http://www.welfarestate.com/911/

[Hell Hath No Fury]

48. Uh, yeah...

...it really "works" alright.

:eyes:

[nascarblue]

67. You seriously think thats "very effective"? 50 yr war?

Thats f'ed up. That is completely assinine and will do nothing but cause deeper resentment. See thats the problem with newer societies, their arrogance blurs their judgement. When you act out this kind of crap, it causes deep resentment and it just snowballs. FOr you to say it's "very effective" shows your ignorance IMO. I mean it's so effective that you've had a constant war for 50 years! Real effective!

[prosecutr1960]

69. good post, nascarblue!!!!

[WoodrowFan]

54. you can't be both??? (NT)

[nascarblue]

68. At least with suicide bombs theyre trying for a specific target...

..Im not condoning it at all, I'm just saying I understand it and the desperation going up against such massive firepower. And if you compare it with the way we've incessantly bombed Fallujah, Mosul, Najif, and Baghdad, etc. when we're supposedly going after a few Al Zarqawi guys, it's pretty pointless to be dropping 20 1000 ton bombs on whole neighborhoods poisoning them for a 1000 years with DU. I'd say dropping bombs is way more destructive to innocent civilians than an Iraqi suicide bomber.