Wow I just finished Treason...

[Catholic Sensation]

I have a few thoughts about this book, and the one that's in the forefront of my mind is that a hundred male cows with chronic diarrhea couldn't produce this much bullshit. How the fuck does she keep getting paid to write this crap? God damn, and she makes shit up about Carter and misrepresents personal hero of mine, former national security cheif Brezenzki (I'm part Polish, and any leftist anti-communist Pole is great in my book).

I needed over a month to read this. I actually read four books between sittings of this piece of garbage. When Ann Coulter dies, I am going to pity Lucifer, because he's going to have to deal with her for an eternity.

[Darranar]

1. I won't even buy the book...

knowing that it's by Ann Coulter is bad enough for me.

[bluesoul]

2. Ann Coulter

I hope you didn't buy the book, people like her don't deserve the money from progressive people.

Let me put it this way, I am from Europe, and I am not as much engaged with US politics as you guys obviously are, but I do know that of all the things that come to my mind when I think about something so disgusting, intolerant, bigoted, anti-journalistic, Ann Coulter tops them all. I have heard and read enough from her venom to conclude that. Even any sane person on the right should find people like her repugnant. She doesn't deserve one bit of the attention she would wish. Ahhh... :puke:

[jumptheshadow]

3. Coulter-geist

My cat has more intellectual gravity than Ann Coulter.

This woman has the shelf life of a gnat. Someday soon everybody will be much more interested in conversations about more serious subjects, like lint.

[bfusco]

4. How did you manage the vomiting?

I would need a truck load of anti-emitics and gallons of IV fluids to prevent dehydration from the massive vomiting if I attempted to read that garbage. The success of the book is a testamont to all the brain dead freepers out there. I once E-mailed my brother a paragraph she had written and it's a perfect response regarding her writing:

"If I wanted to read something approaching Ann Coulter's crap, I would pick up a copy of Mein Kamf. They are both contain horribly written, revolting ideas but at least Mein Kamf has historical signifigance."

[liberalnurse]

5. You must be new to the democratic

party? I suggest you read a fine book by Al Franken, "Lies And the Lying Liars Who Tell Them; A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right."

This will help send you on the path Luke.

and

"May the Force be With You."

[Ilsa]

6. I hope you checked it out of the library instead of buying it.

How much weight did you lose from the sudden explosive bowel movements?

[Cat Atomic]

7. Coulter, Hannity, Fox News, etc. are the masturbation wing

of the Neo Conservative movement. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc. are it's very ugly climax. The movement has shot it's wad. We are now in the Tissue stage, where the hand that once concerned itself only with stroking must instead focus on clean up.

Anyway, I think it'll be pretty interesting to see how the propaganda wing fares once the movement itself has utterly discredited itself.

[Pepperbelly]

12. That was an awe-inspiring metaphor ... perfectly executed. Bravo and

WELCOME!!!!!!

:toast: :party: :bounce: :hi:

:smoke:

[ComerPerro]

34. Great metaphor

That was briliant

[TahitiNut]

8. Did you lose a bet?

:eyes: I can hardly imagine a sane reason to read this book, other than forensic research.

While there's an abundance of revulsion expressed towards Coulter on DU, there's one salient point I've yet to see noted. The mere fact that such a venomous, hate-filled screed has such a large audience in this country should indicate the severity of the moral and ethical decay of our national 'body politic.'

If this were a book filled with grossly sadistic pornography and received such a wide acceptance, it could hardly indicate a more widespread and serious social illness. It is consciously designed to pander to and exacerbate a corruption that, due to its depth and extent, poses a comparable threat to our society, IMHO. Even some of the more pronounced characterizations of the "red scare" of the 50's do not reach the severity of the political condition in this country as indicated by a book like Coulter's having targeted such a large audience. One cannot even compare it to Frankin's books, books which do not advocate anything like the personal animosity and hostility pervasive in Coulter's books. It's pathological.

These are people who (apparently) read. These are people who have an interest in politics (as opposed to gardening or science fiction) sufficient to buy books. That this audience could be estimated to be in the 1/2 to 2 million range would seem to indicate a sociopolitical pathology of epidemic proportions, terminally infecting something like 20% of our nation. That's huge.

The laughable notion that winning a single Presidential election would be a significant 'correction' to the condition we see in our country seems to indicate to me an abject failure to appreciate just how serious and extreme our national political condition is today. That there are those who persist in advocating compromise and moderation in addressing this political condition (akin to treating pneumonia with an aspirin) indicates to me a secondary and tertiary contamination of even broader proportions.

[PATRICK]

10. useful only for

saying things they usually only dare say among themselves. Things that will eventually get put into policy and into public discourse probably with this celeb mouth breaking the ice.

I mean, people were shocked about the crusade and forced baptism cracks, but if this is part of what the whole sub tribe thinks it is important.

But other than being revelatory of what's beneath the sneer and veneer it is sheer poison. Useless for anything substantial.

[Pepperbelly]

15. a silver lining ...

Remember this, a good amount of her sales are bulk buys by sugar daddies like Scaife and other righties. They give them away for free at some sites when one subscribes to some other garbage they are pushing.

Otherwise, very perceptive post. I just hope the bulk buys shows that the corruption is far more diluted. :D

[TahitiNut]

18. "Bulk sales" ...

... merely indicate another tier of distribution, IMHO. Such sales aren't used for fireplace materials, they're used for distributing this book in alternative venues such as churches, gun shows, private 'schools,' and other gatherings where this disease is spread. Remember, private profit for the wealthy is king. There isn't a charitable cell in Scaife's (or other fundy funders) bodies. It's all done on a quid pro quo basis. The faithful always clip a little of their own fleece and give it to these wolves.

[Beel]

54. Bulk Sales Question

I thought bulk sales indicated some individual or organization has placed a large order. For instance, if you go to nationalreview.com, you'll see that they're practically giving away ($1 each. That's right--one dollar.) all sorts of "best sellers" (including Ann's two latest) with your paid subscription. In other words, they're buying and then handing out (possibly at a loss?) this schlock in order to lure in subscriptions. Though lord knows I've been wrong before!

[Ernesto]

44. Good call, Peperbelly

I've seen many posts that suggested that book stores were biased because they stocked so many copies of this wrag. In fact, I don't think the book dealers can
sale them. Soon you will find the thing on the "bargin" table. The repug practise of bulk buys for best seller ratings must be a real problem for honest book merchants. They get stuck with the useless inventory.

[Brucey]

16. Pathology or brainwashing?

I love what you've written here, but am wondering if the current gob of Clinton-hating goons that have infected the US are crazy or just brainwashed? The corporate owned media are part of the problem; but there seems to be something else going on. Like religious nuts or creationists, they seem to live in another world. They have their own newspapers and information sources that spread the bullshit outside of normal paths of knowledge. How do we deal with this? How can you educate people who are so far gone and who get their information and ways of thinking about things from a brainwashing machine? (Love your writing style!)

[TahitiNut]

19. Pathology.

It's like an addiction in that, once hooked, the victims both seek repeated 'fixes' (as what remains of their resistance is increasingly eroded) and seek to contaminate others in a sociopathically codependent fashion. Also like an addiction, there are suppliers of two kinds: fellow addicts and self-serving pushers. Both are pathological; one purely predatory and the other a self-destructive malignancy.

Cheap shot: brainwashing requires a brain.

To the extent there's "brainwashing" it's in the compromised-resistance community. We humans often wallow in Disneyesque denial: "It's not as bad as it seems." Perhaps it's in the nature of this disease that the 'body politic' has, like AIDS, it's immune system compromised -- where there's some attempt to actually accommodate the disease rather than eradicate it. I tend to see this as the toxic effects of any addictive substance that compromises judgement.

The implications of this paradigm are disturbing. The major implication being that the patient (the American 'body politic'), once in the throes of its addiction, is unable to cure itself and requires outside intervention. This, indeed, is the historical track record of Fascism.

[Brucey]

21. Good example

Fascism is a good analogy; there are a striking number of resemblances between the Nazi goals and actions and those of the Bush Admin. Pathology is a metaphor that might work, but you are right that the implications are interesting. What is the cure or treatment? Education does seem to do some good, but how do we educate a public that increases tuition and denigrates teachers? What are some other solutions? My feeling is that pop culture drives nearly everthing today. We have not made strides in most areas, but one that seems to be improving is gay rights. I suspect it's because the pop culture embraced gays long ago. This has spread to the public, and the majority are much more tolerant than they were a decade ago. This has not been true in other arenas such as women's rights, perhaps because the pop culture continues its campaign of making women seem unimportant sex objects. Arnie, of course, has that in his past (and likely his present), and it is justified and accepted by the majority (particularly males, of course). Perhaps we should pay more attention to influencing pop culture and encouraging performers, producers, and writers to be more liberal, compassionate, and intelligent.

[TahitiNut]

22. One of the better treatises I've found ...

... on the protofascist infection of the American body politic is at http://www.cursor.org/stories/fascismintroduction.php

[Brucey]

24. Thanks,

great suggestion, keep at it, you are appreciated.

[Zuni]

32. now that is just

dumb. The only people who compare Bush to the Nazis are people who really do understand Nazi Germany, Hitler or the Nazi Party ideals and goals.

There are no striking similarities.

I'd say Bush is closer to richard Nixon--a spokesperson for special interests and able to lie out of both sides of his mouth at the same time.

[Brucey]

41. What?

It's not dumb. You study history; surely you know a bit about the Nazi party - hating intellectuals and gays, invading countries to take their resources and control populations, unquestionned rightness in their beliefs, constant rationalizations, belief in their superiority, worship of Jesus and God, worship of patriotism and loyalty at all costs, racism, etc. You don't see any parallels with the right-wingers of the USA?

[TahitiNut]

45. "people who really do understand"?? Yup.

Yes, it is those who really do understand. Now, how that equates to "dumb" must be in the sense of mute or voiceless, I guess. :shrug:

The only way you could say "There are no striking similarities," is if you saw them as more than mere 'similarities" -- with which I might quibble.


Now, just to make sure you (have a chance to) understand, the operative word is fascism (or, more technically, "protofascism"). That you seem to miss the meaningful distinction and focus solely on its German incarnation ("Nazi") seems to betray a (occasionally?) superficial (and somewhat patellar?) cognitive process.

[Beetwasher]

53. Actually, I would argue that the pathology is not merely

metaphorical. It's quite real and working on a national group level. Groups can experience and act on pathologies. Just look at the McCarthy, Nazism and Salem Witch trials to name a few. The country (or a large part of it) is currently in a trance state and suffering from severe cognitive dissonance.

[Brucey]

58. okay

I don't want to get picky with people with whom I agree, but pathology is a metaphorical concept. The idea of illness is subjective. Am I ill if I am depressed? Am I ill if I am bored? Am I ill if I wash my hands compulsively 100 times a day? Am I ill if I drive fast every time I'm on the highway? What is illness? It is a subjective concept - anything can be called a pathology. The metaphor is used too easily and leads to problems. If someone dislikes our feelings or ideas they can just call us sick. Also, you have used the term cognitive dissonance incorrectly. But I agree with your sentiments wholeheartedly and see a severe problem in the body politic of the USA. What is the solution (s)?

[Beetwasher]

60. Well

You did get picky ;-) I disagree very much with your intepretations of illness. There most definitely are very real and non-metaphorical psychological illnesses that includes pathological behavior which has a much less broad interpretation when used in a psychological context. I suggest you talk to some psychologists and tell THEM that psychological illness that manifests itself in pathological behavior is only metaphorical.

Cognitive dissonance was NOT used incorrectly. It is part and parcel of much pathological behavior. I could get into some long dissertations here to explain this, but honestly, I don't feel like getting into it.

[TahitiNut]

62. "What's the solution?" Most don't want to hear.

It has been known for a couple of centuries that democracy depends for its survival on an educated and informed electorate. Unless we find a way to fix that and keep it fixed for more than a generation, the only alternative (IMHO) is "Phoenician": From the ashes of Nazi Germany arose a democracy and from the ashes of the British Empire arose democracies. (It's no accident that healthy democracies have excellent public schooling and a diverse and independent media.)

This, FWIW, is the subtheme of what I wrote a year ago. (See http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/02/10/16_voting.html)

In our Age of Immediate Gratification, this isn't what most of us want to hear. ("Gee, Daddy, I'd rather have the penny now than the dime tomorrow.") In the meantime, we'll take a lot of refuge in the "it could be worse" rationalizations.

[LoZoccolo]

50. Actually it's kind of good though...

...because I have a feeling these hard-core conservatives would chatter amongst themselves about how "liberals hate America" and we'd never know it. Or they'd write in more obscure venues. Putting a book like this out in front of everyone made it possible for a huge counter-attack and public embarassment for the adherents of these thoughts.

On edit: Also, the truth is, though, we don't really have a good idea of how many people are actually reading this book because, as the /New York Times/ has noted in it's bestseller list by putting a (+) next to the entry for the book, some booksellers have been reporting bulk orders, a tactic that can be used to artificially bolster this measure of a book's popularity.

[TahitiNut]

59. Even the 'bulk order' books find readers.

Like I said, they're not used in fireplaces. If only offered as a 'premium' for subscribing to some neoconservative rag, these books are read. In the olden days, you could estimate the readership of library books by checking the tag. I'd guess there're an average of 5-15 readers for each library copy and about 1.5-2 readers for all other copies. Just because it only cost them a trip to the library or a subscription to read it doesn't mean they didn't take on some cost. I'd guess that left wing books are given as gifts more often than right wing books. It's just a guess, but it seems about right considering the target audiences. (I bought HRC's book for a gift at the local CostCo. :shrug:)

[Beetwasher]

51. You couldn't be more dead on!

Not only about the inefficacy of the prescription but about the sickness as well. IMO, the origin of the pathology is abuse. I believe most if not all of the people who adhere to this type of "ideology" are the products of abusive childhoods that create a sever cognitive dissonance, fear and a pathological need to dominate and destroy.

[TahitiNut]

61. One of the more pandemic failures in parenting ...

... is training and indoctrinating junior humans to be excessively concerned with "what others might think" (God forbid). From the authoritarian parent to the latest fads and fashions, we're indoctrinated to the terrorism of faceless opinion. Strangely, the focus on what others may think overwhelms any happenstance training in how to think for ourselves. (God knows I've got my hands full just figuring out what I want to think; I have no time to do worrisome mind-reading. PoliSci majors often seem to take this codependency to collegiate extremes.)

Our own healthy self-esteem and ability to make increasingly positive choices has been under deliberate direct attack from the reich for over 20 years. I remember when, in the early 80's, I was getting similar feedback from several friends and relatives around the country who were (in one way or another) active in their local schools. It was remarkable that a somewhat new and heightened 'interest' in school district control and curriculum was appearing in every venue I knew of. As was reported in various ways, these people were predominantly 'fundies' with religio-political agendas - agendas that weren't openly espoused by those running for Boards of Education positions but which were evident immediately. Curriculm attacks and funding attacks were universal. It became especially evident during the 'Contract on America' years. This assault has worked -- weakening the education system and scourging it of any hint of "self actualization." That "touchy-feely" stuff (of which such agents of absolutism were necessarily ignorant) wasn't allowed. Anything with uniforms, however, was supported. That's not an accident, IMHO.

[Beetwasher]

63. Carl Sagan's "Demon Haunted World"

Should be required reading for everyone on the planet. He was so prescient it's scary.

This country is suffering from a fundamental(ist) (in every sense and connotation of the word) attack of epic proportions. From the top down and the bottom up. Unfortunately, it's the attack from the bottom up which is the most insipid and dangerous (attacks like you mentioned on local school curriculae), like a zillion small brush fires.

The fundamentalists can't be saved, or turned, but at least those currently asleep and not quite entranced as much (that mushy middle) can be warned and made to wake up before it's too late...maybe? I dunno, it gets harder and harder to have faith in the human condition...

[Impeach Whistle Ass]

9. Why did you give her money?

I cant look at her face without getting the dry heaves. And you actually read what that peroxide psycho had to say? All you have to know is that she and everyone like her are the devil.

[Catholic Sensation]

14. obviously you've yet to read my posts on her op-ed pieces

Then you would see where she stands in my opinion (re: Coulter is white trash, Coulter is a more dishonest form of Limbaugh, Coulter is a hypocrit). I got the book because I can't be critical of a book without actually having read it. Same reason I borrowed "Bias" by Bernard "I am a whiney bitch" Goldberg, so I could have a legitimate hatred of the book.

[Cocoa]

38. why do you want to be critical of it?

I've seen both Coulter and Goldberg being interviewed on TV, and I can't imagine anyone, agree or disagree, seeing any need to read their books.

btw, Brzezinski is a leftist? Sorry to pick on that one word that you said in passing, but that's one characterization of him I hadn't heard before.

[sandnsea]

48. I agree with you

One of these days I'm going to go to the library and see if they have the piece of shit. I'll have bottles of Tylenol and Pepto on one side, cold compress on the other, and wade through it. I much prefer to both know the propaganda and be prepared to counter it, rather than just rant at Ann Coulter. Although I really don't need to read her book to rant at her, she's so vile it's rather easy to do.

[LoZoccolo]

52. I agree with your stance...

...I think part of the reason why this conservative movement's grown so large in the space of just over ten years is that we spent a long time just kind of chuckling at their propaganda a bit and then ignoring it.

[Avis]

11. Brezenzki

I love him too! Awhile back he was reminded that he predicted the Soviet Union would fall because of their involvement in Afghanistan. Yet - everyone wants to give Reagan credit for it.

[StandWatie]

25. errr...

You still think forming a terrorist army in Afghanistan was the hottest idea ever? :shrug:

[Buns_of_Fire]

13. Careful. That stuff'll rot your brain.

Take a look over at FreeperLand if you doubt me. ("This is your brain. This is your brain after reading Ann Coulter. Any questions?")

[Tammuz]

17. Brezinski love?

He was the one who wrote the book called 'The Grand Chessboard'

In it he predicts these wars for oil and says they will only be possible if the American people feel they are under attack or another Pearl Harbor happens.

He was Reagans advisor and he was involved in arming the Afghans which he admits forced the hand of the Soviets and probably CAUSED the invasion.

http://members.aol.com/bblum6/brz.htm

[TahitiNut]

20. Not "Reagan's advisor".

Zbigniew Brzezinski was an advisor to the Kennedy and Johnson adminstrations (not to the presidents themselves), the foreign policy advisor on the Humphrey campaign, and the national security advisor to Carter (like Condi Rice is to Junior*). He went into the private (NGO) sector upon Reagan's election, and only served on commissions (e.g. NSC and FIAB) in the 80's rather than a specifically advisory capacity.

[loudsue]

29. TahitiNut ... you write like a pro...

and your take on things is brilliant.

You're one of my very favorite posters on DU...I always read threads where I see you've posted.

O8)Everything you said here is absolutely true and well said. O8)

:kick:

[TahitiNut]

46. GMTA?

:silly: Thanks, luv!! :loveya: It's remarkable how only attractive and intelligent folks agree with me. (giggle)

[StandWatie]

26. he did cause the invasion

up until 9/11 he told everyone in the world that he did.

[Zuni]

30. The Soviets invaded on their own decisions

Brezhinski did not tell the Soviets what to do.
The Soviets had been getting more and more deeply involved in Afghanistan for years before Brezhinski did anything at all to support the rebels.
At the time when Brezhinski allowed moderate support to go to them, the Soviets already had a very large contingent of 'advisors' in Afghanistan supporting the Communist Government.

It was very much like Vietnam

[Zuni]

28. actually

Now, with all the records of the former Soviet Union open it is clear that they were being drawn in before Brezninski made any effort to meddle inside Afghanistan.
If anything, only a tiny amount of weapons ever reached the Afghan rebels at that point.

The main reason the Soviets invaded was that there was widespread unrest and discontent with the Communist Afghan Government, which had virtually no support outside of a few urban areas.

If a small amount of American support caused the Soviets to invade Afghanistan, then did Chinese and Soviet support to the Vietnamese communists cause the US to enter Vietnam?
No. The Soviets made their own decisions.

[Fixated]

23. ...

I also read Treason. Um, check out my blog for my thoughts on it. It's all Treason, all the time.

[TennesseeWalker]

27. If more people actually READ her books...

...they would be terrified. I think people just leave them laying around to let folks know they're "principled, Republican, conservative, God-fearing Christians who love liberty, hate sin and terrorists, and love their pResident." Kind of like putting the bible on the kitchen table when the preacher drops by unexpectedly, looking for some fried chicken.

[Fixated]

31. ....

Terrified? I thought it was hilarious.

[leesa]

33. I hope you didn't buy it!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

35. I'll tell you how she gets paid to write this crap

Because people like YOU buy the crap.

Good day.

[Fixated]

37. .....

Please, some people like to get both sides of the story. You sound like someone who has FNC blocked.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

40. Point taken

But when I want to get the view of the other side, I'll read the National Review.

I could put Coulter and her ilk's ideology on a cocktail napkin without paying her $30 for the privilege.

[TahitiNut]

47. I think her ideology might be more often found ...

... on another common household paper product. :shrug:

[anti_shrub]

36. I'm actually waiting for the bargain bookstore

to get her book, so I'd be supporting a small book chain instead of putting money in her pockets.

I must admit any book that embarrasses the party of Rush Limbaugh and Fox News captures my curiousity.

[bitchkitty]

39. You could also see

if the local library has it. Or shoplift it! ;)

[Athletic Grrl]

42. Or buy it.....

without the front cover. teehee.....

[Catholic Sensation]

49. that's the thing

I was on like five different waitlists for the god damn book, and UNC, Duke, NC State, and NC Central all have this policy of "screw this guy up the ass," and my local public library didn't have it, so I figured I'd buy it and write notes in the margin like "God damn, how did you get a law degree?" There are some blatant slanderous lines in there, I'm wondering if some of the people would sue if they found out what she said about them (Kate Moss for example).

[bitchkitty]

56. Well,

I'm not interested in AC's rantings, but I guess there is some value in seeing what crap the other side is having for dinner. For me, anything that she says is suspect, if she said the earth was round I'd join the flat earth society. Not really, but you get my drift.

[MUAD_DIB]

43. I'll mail you some SOS pads to

scour your eyeballs with.

[Generic Other]

55. Treason? Shouldn't you be executed in front of a firing squad now?

(kidding)

Ann's the one who should be executed.

[Sterling]

57. Brezenzki ?

You mean the asshole who called for a new pearl harbor so the US could take over the world? You need better hero's friend.

What did Annthrax say about him that upset you?