A Christian progressive's call for peace.

[Padraig18]

DU is a place of refuge for me--- a place where I can come and have an intelligent discourse with like-minded people about topics of the day. Sadly, I have seen this forum in particular deteriorate in the last several days into a place of almost wholesale attack upon people of faith, most particularly people of the Christian faith. The post most often begin with a provocative subject line--- 'Christian instruments of torture', 'How can you be pro-life AND a progressive?'. etc..---and the body of the O/P often makes some pretense of being fair-minded, and only posted in the 'interests of promoting a dialogue', or some such...

I am here to ask you to please consider the following things,if you will:

--- If we Christians are here, we are fellow progressives.

http://www.liberalslikechrist.org

--- We may have different opinions on certain issues, but we are not your enemy.

--- We are ALSO opposed to the hijacking of Christ's message by the RW, and oppose them with an intensity you can only mimic. Our outrage arises from the theft of a birthright.

--- Your clearly-antagonistic posts serve no purpose here, other than to drive a wedge between two groups of progressives, which is a MOST foolish aim.

I extend to you a hand of friendship, and a solemn pledge to work with you tireslessly to evict the evil RW thugs who control our government.

Can you take my hand?

Peace.

[mark414]

as a non-religious person

i accept your hand

[Padraig18]

3. Peace.

:)

[ktowntennesseedem]

1. Gladly! Excellent post, and well said!

I agree with you 100%

:yourock:

[Padraig18]

4. Thank you!

:hug:

[secedeeconomically]

2. Is it clean?? lol

[Padraig18]

6. What's a little pork chop grease, between friends?

;)

[secedeeconomically]

9. Pork Chops mmmmmm Im getting hungry

[Padraig18]

11. We have some left.

Mac 'n cheese and applesauce, too.

:)

[secedeeconomically]

16. Can i hug you??

[Padraig18]

24. Sure!

Hugs are great!

:)

[VioletLake]

5. I'm with you. n/t

[Padraig18]

7. Awesome.

Together, we are strong.

:hug:

[VioletLake]

12. I was thinking about you earlier...

thinking about all the DUers I would want fighting along side me. I'm glad you posted this thread.

:hug:

[Padraig18]

13. Awwwww....

I'd want you at my side, too. It was time for this thread, I thought.

:hug:

[VioletLake]

15. You can count on me to add a reasoned voice to this debate.

No more silly comments either. O8)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. I'll be glad to take your hand

I'm a Sufi, and believe all paths lead to God. Like you, I am sad at the way fundamentalists who claim to be Muslims or Christians are really making a mockery of the teachings of their faith. I also agree that progressives dissing other progressives is not helping matters. I try to respect all people, even those who are not believers. I think this is part of being a progressive and a liberal.

[Padraig18]

10. Inshallah!

Peace unto you.

:hug:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

19. and with you be peace

Salaam. Shalom. Peace.

[indigobusiness]

14. How can you judge the threads you cited as pretentious?

One of those threads was mine, and, I assure you, I pretended nothing of the sort.

While I agree with you in general. This one specific point smacks of a touch of judgmentalism and self-righteousness. Both, decidedly,
unChristian characteristics.

[Padraig18]

20. I'm sorry if that hit a bit too close to home.

I didn't remember who posted the thread, but I distinctly remember the subject line. FWIW, those weren't Christian instruments of torture, they were medieval instruments of torture, which an accurate subject line would have reflected.

[indigobusiness]

27. It didn't matter WHO'S it was. The point is the same.

And how it was dressed up didn't matter. That is a superficial difference without a distinction. I don't play that. It was the content that was relevant, not the form. And, it was apropriately titled "Christian Instruments of Torture" (or something like that)...made and developed by Christians in the highest reaches of orthodoxy. There was nothing in that, once you got the drift of the thread, unless you would defend torture or the sort of Christian that would sanction it. Then, or now.

The point was to draw a distinction between what is sacred in Christianity, and what is clearly the opposite.

I'm not personally offended by what you said. I just felt it should be challenged on principle. I know your intentions are good, and I hope you realize that mine are, as well.

edit BTW there were 2 similar threads on that that appeared at the same time. Mine was the one with fewer pics. It went wild and was locked after about 100 messages.

[Padraig18]

29. No, the point ISN'T the same.

The adjective you chose to use was inflammatory, and that is the point here.

[indigobusiness]

31. I did not choose anything inflammatory. I called a spade a spade.

Those instruments of torture were developed by the Christian Church.

That is mere history. Nothing to be offended by as a Christian, unless you would defend that chapter.

[Padraig18]

32. Your post was devoid of proof.

It seems as though you equate use with invention. Would you please quit raising strawman arguments, like '...unless you would defend that chapter...."? I have no intention of addressing such an inane question.

[indigobusiness]

38. Proof of the use of those devices by the Church is not a hidden mystery.

You can google it as easily as I did.

It is historical fact. Consult any reference work on the the subject.

Aside from the English history, have you never heard of Torquemada?

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/xian-barbarism.html


The message of the teachings is what matters not all the pomp and circumsatance. That is true Christianity.

[indigobusiness]

40. The Judas Chair----wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_Chair

The Judas Chair was a torture device used in the Spanish Inquisition.

The Judas Chair, also known as the Judas Cradle, was a pyramid-shaped seat. The victim was placed on top of it, with the point inserted into their anus or vagina, then very slowly lowered by ropes. The intended effect was to stretch the orifice over a long period of time.

The Inquisition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

[indigobusiness]

33. I think you must've seen the similar htread to mine without the text.

That somewhat explained the relationship I've described.

[Padraig18]

34. I couldn't say.

:shrug:

[VioletLake]

35. Just for reference... ;)

Here are both threads. They were both locked for some reason, and one of them had a bunch of responses deleted. :shrug:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2855705

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2855570

[gottaB]

17. I have been radicalized

Yes we should join together to oppose the conservative right, but I don't believe that all of the voices that have been raised recently in defense of Christianity or religiosity represent progressive ideas.

Anybody can pretend to be fairminded. That's how most of us percieve ourselves, and yet we are often quite wrong. Is it fair to point out that flaw in one's forensic adversaries, while extending the hand of friendship?

[Padraig18]

26. I'm not sure I understand your point. n/t

[gottaB]

42. Are you calling for peace because you want peace?

Or are you looking for people to support you against your antagonists?

It isn't clear to me that if you felt antagonized by certain posts it was due to the intention of the posters to antagonize you.

It seems therefore that your offer of friendship entails agreement upon more than just civility and common progressive values.

I ask you to consider whether the agreement you ask for is genuinely fairminded.

[VioletLake]

45. It's not just Christianity or religiosity.

I think the idea is for us to develop well-reasoned opinions; we want our "arrows" to hit their targets without injuring innocent bystanders. If we can all do this, or at least give it an honest try, we will strengthen the community while making it considerably more difficult for unprincipled people to infiltrate/disrupt/derail it.

It's a call to get on the team if you're here for legitimate reasons. We do have a common goal. We shouldn't come here to destroy the little unity and hope we have left.

It's not a call to censor ideas, it's a call to present ideas with more care. I'm guilty of going too far sometimes, but I'm making an effort to improve.

I can't speak for Padraig, but I think this is what he has in mind.

[gottaB]

46. I am almost positive that's what he had in mind

But sometimes the mind plays tricks you.

The goal should not be to preserve a little unity at any cost, but to unify more broadly, more inclusively.

Opening one's mind to one's own prejudices and finding ways around its habitual ways of preserving self image will contribute to that.

He says wryly, looking back at his own posts. I have recently had a thread locked, and am angry about it. I suspect that some people are finding insults where none were intended, and that is stifling my own urge to freely express myself.

It may also represent a stifling of the free exchage of ideas, ultimately diminishing the quality of discussion. I invite you to consider that possibility.

[VioletLake]

47. If it ends up stifling the free exchange of ideas,

we can always end this informal agreement. The point is to increase the value of the ideas being exchanged freely.

Perhaps there is an element of "stifling" involved - the same way we tailor our expressions to different audiences.

By all means share your opinions, but make them count for something good. That's all. :)

[Sparkly]

18. Beautiful post

I take your hand too, Padraig!

And I have a question: is there language to refer to rightwing hijackers of the Christian message, as you say, that would help clarify who people mean to discuss? I'd like to know if there's a phrase or term that you find accurate and not offensive. ("Fundamentalist," "christofascist," "Christian conservative," etc. -- or do all terms involving the name "Christ" strike you as insulting? Serious question!)

Thanks! :hug:

[tjdee]

21. I'm good with "fundie".

I'm not Padraig, but I'm an extremely liberal Christian.

When I first came to DU, I came to understand "fundie" as that sort of person who does kooky things that all of us as liberals raise an eyebrow at--although all fundamentalists aren't evangelicals, and all of them aren't wacko RWers. Seemed that's what most people used, I was okay with that.

More often, I've noticed that the wording has from shifted from "fundie" to "Christian" in a number of threads/posts.

[Padraig18]

22. I prefer 'false prophets' or 'schismatics' myself.

:)

[mark414]

23. what about modern day pharisees?

[Padraig18]

25. That works, too.

:thumbsup:

[mark414]

28. fundamentalist doesn't equal right wing or conservative

a good friend of mine's husband is an extreme fundamentalist, in that he believes in a strict adherence to the bible and that everything, for good or for bad is god's will and he will receive his award upon entering heaven

she really struggles with this because she's a real radical...a revolutionary if you will, extremely liberal take to the streets if need be kind of girl

and her husband is a very traditional, he goes to work and is the man and supports his family while his wife takes care of the kids kind of guy...he believes that because that's what the bible says

and for context's sake, they are young, poor, and black, and he doesn't think it's necessary to fight against racism or poverty or injustice because he believes that if that's what god intended then so be it...his reward for suffering will be eternal salvation, and he's one of the most bush hating cats i know

i don't know how the marriage works but it does

i have another (female) friend who doesn't think that women should be in big powerful positions or anything like that...because she believes in strict adherence to the bible...and she hates george bush

[Cuban_Liberal]

30. Bravo! Well said!

:thumbsup:

[Jean Louise Finch]

36. Atheist here

And I'll take your hand. Some of my best friends are progressive Christians, and I am disillusioned by these off the cuff remarks that group an entire, humongous group of people under the same rubric of hate. There are goods, bads and middle of the roads under every label.

Peace and good will.

[Padraig18]

37. Off to bed.

Just wanted to get that off my chest. Goodnight, all.

Peace.

:)

[cally]

39. I mostly agree...the flame wars are rather intense the last few days

But, I started a thread that garnered many posts and my intention was not to start a flame war. I wanted a discussion because it's an issue I'm confused about. Many folks post for the same reason..they want an intelligent, informed discussion of issues. Too many times, these end up in flamewars.

Still, I think the bashing has gotten too extreme. Promoting the red state/blue state dichotomy just hurts us and demeans too many DUers. Bashing ALL Christians, Muslims, Jews, Wiccans, etc just shows ignorance and intolerance.

[mandyky]

41. You betchya!

I was raised Methodist, went to a fundie baptist thingy for about a tear and then went athiest/agnostic for awhile. But I still feel like I am a Christian, although I don't attend church or have the creeds or dogmas of any church. But I take seriously, in Bibles with the red Christ quotes his words and parables.

When people here get down on Christians, they mean fundy freepers, not people of belief and faith, necessarily.

[blondeatlast]

43. I also choose to follow Christ, and it is heartening to see so many

willing to support each other to neutralize the evil in our nation.
I've seen some real progress in several threads today.

I choose not to be a victim, I choose not wage a war, I hope I never proselytize.

The struggle is for what is right and ethical and moral, regardless of how it is defined. If my brother or sister is oppressed, I don't care what they choose to believe or not to believe, Jesus Christ wants me to lend a hand to ease the pain, wipe the tears, free the bonds.

We will prevail, because we know that however we believe, we love our brothers and sisters. And love is all that matters.

[Mike Niendorff]

44. well said.

Also, I'd like to comment on one specific point in your post:

> Your clearly-antagonistic posts serve no purpose here, other than
> to drive a wedge between two groups of progressives

Unfortunately, that IS a specific purpose, and one that I wish more progressives would pay attention to. A house divided against itself cannot stand, and the RW knows this. They WILL try to create and exacerbate these divisions, and it frustrates me greatly when I see so many of my fellow progressives playing into this.

That doesn't mean that I'm going to embrace your religion, or that I expect you to embrace my lack thereof. It's just that there's plenty of room for all of us in this movement, and enough respect to go around to everyone. What unites us is what matters.


MDN

[Zomby Woof]

48. Liberalslikechrist.com is a SHAM

The owner of that site used to post here on DU, and was banned because of one too many bigoted threads and posts against Catholics. Some "liberal christian" there!

His DU name was Liberator_Rev, for anyone wondering. We vets remember him all too well. One hateful wretch of a christian.

Christianity is ultimately authoritarian, being a monotheistic faith, and therefore, the antithesis of liberal. The apparent contradiction of jesus's teachings being "liberal" in that context cannot be reconciled with the authoritarian and inhumane message of "my way or the highway to hell!" underneath.

Keep your hand. There isn't going to be any peace.

[Hippo_Tron]

49. n/t

n/t

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

55. WOW!

You never cease to amaze me!


:loveya:

[Hippo_Tron]

50. The civil rights movement was lead by Christians

Time for you guys to take your message back.

[Padraig18]

51. Wow!

I can't tell you how nice it is to see all the positive responses here!

:D

[Lilith Velkor]

52. Big heathen hug!

And as a feminist who loves men, I kinda know what you mean.

[Dem2theMax]

53. Thank you, thank you, thank you for saying this.

As a liberal Christian, I really appreciate your taking the time to write this. I sincerely hope that people will sit up and take notice of this thread. I keep telling myself that the liberal/progressive/Democrat person is one who is tolerant of people with different beliefs. But this board has sadly shown me otherwise. Hopefully that can change. Your post is certainly a good place to start. :)

[ulysses]

54. taken.

You do know that battles over some of those differing opinions are inevitable though, right? :)

[arwalden]

56. No, Just Use Your Hand To Pass Me An Air-Sick Bag...

I think I'm gonna hurl. (Yes I'm familiar with that site.)

[ulysses]

57. Merry Christmas, Allen.

:7

[arwalden]

58. Hey Ulysses! Merry Christmas To You Too!

May all your Christmas wishes come true.
And may all the tree needles in your carpet get sucked up in the vacuum cleaner the first time!

-- Allen :hi:

[ulysses]

59. that reminds me...

I need to go water the damned thing...:)

:hi: