So how did suicide bombers get inside a military mess hall?

[Poiuyt]

Just what kind of security do they have over there?

[DireStrike]

1. That's the million dollar question, ain't it?

I wonder what lengths they will go to, to correct this. I have confidence that it will either be way to far, or nowhere near enough.

For example, lip service and no response, or cracking down on muslims and arabs in our forces.

[havocmom]

2. I haven't been where I can get news, was it a Halliburton mess hall?

Just sorta curious, since they have contracts for some of the mess services.

[DireStrike]

4. They were supposed to build it/fortify the position

But they didn't get around to it. It was just a big tent.

[tk2kewl]

10. how would a concrete building be better?

it would probably be worse as a the walls and ceiling would reflect the blast force. Whether its a tent or building doesn't chance the fact that there was an enemy inside.

[DireStrike]

13. Yes. but they still didn't do what they were paid for.

A chaplain on duty (posted on DU somewhere) Reported that they all ran for fortified shelter shortly after. It was hit 4 times by mortar fire. (the shelter, not the tent.)

If a mortar or rocket was a guaranteed hit, I'm sure they would use it on the tent. If they "fix" the problems that let the suicide bomber get in, they will switch to hitting soft targets with RPGs, mortars, etc.

[Tempest]

37. A fortified concrete mess hall is being built

It was supposed to be completed this month, but like all government contracts, it is behind schedule.

The insurgents most likely had this information.

[tk2kewl]

3. Unbelievable. A disgrace.

If they cant keep them out of a military base how the hell are they going to keep them out of the NYC subways?

This thread was interesting...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1449140
Points to Cheney's outsourcing while he was Defense Sec. as a cause of weakened security on bases.

[nostamj]

5. this morning on CNN

they had some analyst saying that there HAD to be more than one person on the base involved...

madness.

[madrchsod]

6. slim to none

us soldiers working the mess -expensive
iraqi labor-cheap and deadly

[atreides1]

7. Because

To the US military, all Iraqis look alike. And remember the Pentagon keeps telling us all how much the Iraqi people love us.

[TahitiNut]

8. They were disguised as plastic turkeys, of course.

:eyes:

The irony of "security personnel" being killed by an undetected suicide bomber just underlines the fact: There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch!

[Dr.Phool]

9. Haliburton Security Guards

I was watching Amy Goodman on Democracy Now! this morning, and they had a piece about the "civilian contractors" that are peasants hired out of places like El Salvador, and other Central American countries.

They said that most of the mess employees were from Fiji.

[Oversea Visitor]

12. He dress as a bush and ask a chimp to carry him in....

through a field full of rum.

[DireStrike]

18. Heh! Welcome to DU!

[MadHound]

11. My guess is that the bomber was somebody who worked on the base

The military is using many Iraqis to do the grunt work around bases, and more than likely the bomber was able to procure a job on base, case the place, and walk right into the mess hall all without raising any suspicion. And quite frankly, I'm suprised we haven't seen more of these types of on base attacks.

This is the same type of problem the military faced in Vietnam. Saigon was the base of operations for the US military, yet we couldn't keep it secure. Guerilla attacks were common, North Vietnamese and the Viet Cong blended right in with the local populace and were able to carry out attacks on military personell, etc. etc. Much like we're facing now in Iraq.

Quite frankly, I think that we'll being seeing more such attacks on US personell. It is a way to demoralize the troops, keep them on edge, and sap their moral.

[Jacobin]

14. Simple my friend

We hire Iraqis for all sorts of grunt work. I will go out on a limb here (facetious) and say that most Iraqis want the invaders to leave their country. Those who are not actively attacking the troops are sympathetic to the cause of the resistance.

Get hired on as a cook, waiter, whatever. Background check? Give me a break. Strap explosives on, and join the ranks of the resistance fighters.

What's so hard to figure out about this?

[Tempest]

15. Here's what I don't understand

They showed pictures of the canvas roof of the mess hall tent and it clearly showed a hole caused by something penetrating it from the outside. There was no burns around the hole, or in any of the material hanging from where the rocket punched through. If it were a bomb from the inside, there would have been burns.

I've seen the aftermath of enough rocket attacks, including through canvas, to know when an attack came from the sky.

All the reports said there were multiple mortars and rockets fired at the base. Now all of a sudden there's no mortars or rockets and the bombing was from inside the mess hall.

Something doesn't add up.

[Oversea Visitor]

19. Friendly Fire????

[Tempest]

26. Most likely not

The initial reports said there were multiple mortar and rockets fired into the base.

However, the intelligence on the base layout and eating schedule was obviously known. That was most likely an inside job.

[jayfish]

43. The Inside Actor May Also Have...

been acting as a forward fire-controller. That might explain the "martyrdom operation" claim. I'm sure anyone caught doing so would be killed immediately and with good reason.

Jay

[DireStrike]

20. You're right about that...

I was thinking it could have been a fragmentation based bomb, but that would have created a much different pattern, including lots of little holes all over the place.

[Tempest]

27. The lack of holes elsewhere tells me it was a rocket

And not a mortar.

Mortars give off much more shrapnel than rockets.

Rockets shear off in larger pieces, and there were at least two large holes in the side of the mess hall.

[quaoar]

24. But

there were also reports of holes punched in various objects that were most likely caused by ball bearings, which are favorite implements to attach to suicide bomb vests.

[DireStrike]

29. Then... how come the inside of the tent doesn't look like a disco ball?

[Tempest]

34. And why were only personnel close to the blast injured?

If it were a fragmental suicide bomber, there would be injuries in a 200 to 300 foot radius.

If only 50 were injured, the blast was obviously centrally located.

And since everyone was sitting down, there would hundreds of facial and chest wounds. From what I understand, many of the wounds were to the legs and thighs.

[uncle ray]

46. why do you so want it to be a rocket?

maybe the 50 or so people were in very close proximity to the bomber, limiting the casuality range by bearing the majority of the blast, maybe the bomb was sitting on the floor under a bench or something? how the hell do we know? suicide bomb, rocket, mortar, it doesn't matter, this is just the latest example of our failure to protect even our own people.

the american people have been led to believe that we have the best military with all these fancy electronic gizmos, yet we can't defend aganst simple car bombs, we can't protect troops on our bases. does it REALLY matter how death was delivered? whack a mole.

[DireStrike]

50. Because speculation is fun!

You may be right about that, but if it was a fragmentary suicide bomb, wouldn't it have been delivered in a more effective way?

If I were a suicide bomber, I would want damn sure to make sure I killed the most infidels.

I guess we don't have any reports from witnesses yet... that would help.

[Tempest]

31. I haven't heard of fragmental suicide bombers in Iraq

All the reports I've read mention only suicide bombs, not fragmental suicide bombs.

Do you have any intel which says fragmental bombs are being used by the suicide bombers in Iraq?

[JHB]

38. Not necessarily burns...

the pressure wave from the bomb could have torn open the tent fabric. I think it's likely the initial speculation about rockets or mortars came from the size of the explosion and a hasty thought that there was nothing inside that could have produced it.

[Tempest]

41. Pressure wave would have gone out, not up

The pressure wave from explosives wrapped around an object goes out from the center, not upwards or downwards.

That's why you never see a hole in the ground from a suicide bomber.


On edit:
That should read "rarely see a hole" not never see a hole.

[jayfish]

39. Sounds Like ShrubCo. Decided...

that our troops having zero security floated better than the idea of the insurgency becoming more proficient with their weapons. They wouldn't want Iraqis to think they could be subject to ,accurate, mortar/rocket fire at the polls.

Jay

[Tempest]

42. My thought exactly

BushCo have been harping on how the mortar attacks have been inaccurate and have not caused much damage.

Now they find out the insurgents are starting to get good with them and are in cover-up mode.

No one will want to go vote if they know the insurgents can now actually hit their targets.

[ProfessorGAC]

16. I Think The Military & Pentagon Has Underestimated. . .

. . .the numbers of the insurgents and sympathizers. I would guess it's not the small percentage being touted by Li'l Georgie and his gang, and the military simply figured the threat was contained in pockets.

More likely, the sympathy and involvment is growing by the week and now it's such a large number that ther is no way to know who the enemy is and who the allies are.

So, i think we'll see more of this, not less.
The Professor

[DireStrike]

21. Yes. How would they know? Polls?

And where would they conduct the polls? The Green zone? Other secure sites?

How could they possibly know? All we have to go in, really is their word. And that's worthless.

[ProfessorGAC]

22. Well, Here's What I Would Do

I would take maximum caution and assume the number is large. If they think 10%, they should assume 25%. If it's 20%, assume 50%.

Underestimating the resistance is a good way to get people killed, as we saw this week.

We still have idiots in charge waiting for the hearts and roses! Dumbasses!
The Professor

[DireStrike]

25. Yes, the actual figures are DEFINITELY worse than they will ever admit.

It's also useful to remember that they want business to grow. They want foreign investment and insurance coverage. The higher the threat, the less likely that is to happen.

They may think differently in the rank and file, even officers, but the higher-ups will put a stopper on that information getting out.

[Jacobin]

35. The last "poll" taken by Bremer in late spring

said 80% of Iraqis want the U.S. out of the country right now.

Of course, clues must be much less subtle than that for the US government.

[Tempest]

36. Pentagon estimated 5,000 insurgents

Reports inside Iraq put the number at 12,000 to 15,000.

http://www.csis.org/features/iraq_deviraqinsurgency.pdf

[ProfessorGAC]

40. Then It's Probably 50,000

That's my point. I think that both on the ground and in the Pentagon they are underestimating the number and failing to include the sympathizers. Also, i think they're talking ARMED insurgents. Suicide bombers, and people willing to do that, wouldn't be included in that number.

I think the local sympathy for the insurgents is far more widespread than Dum-Dum and Rum-Dum would have us believe.
The Professor

[Jacobin]

44. Try two million or more active and 20 million sympathizers

100 attacks per day on U.S. troops.

They don't want us there. How they can make it clearer, I cannot imagine

[ProfessorGAC]

47. You May Very Well Be Right!

The Professor

[tk2kewl]

23. I'll go you one further and say they mis-underestimated

eom

[ProfessorGAC]

32. But Of Course!

Sorry, i forgot that i have to butcher the english language to get on the same page with these idiots.
The Professor

[bush_is_wacko]

33. Very likely scenario! n/t

[bullimiami]

17. so you were wondering that one too?

?

rather than tne 'unknown' iraqi, maybe it was one of the iraqi guardsmen???

[pstans]

28. Secutrity?

Rumsfield probably gave the suicide bomber a key.

[bush_is_wacko]

30. Sounds to me like the Iraqi gaurds we are "training" were in that

mess hall with us. We all know they have been subject to infiltration many times in the past. I don't think we should keep training them inside the country. It's time we do a service to them and us and move them the hell out of there! We can bring them back after they have the training that will give them the balls to resist the temptation of blowing themselves and us up! I am not stupid enough to think this will completely solve the problem, but it certainly would help US not to have our active troops in Iraq blown up on a regular basis by guy's they think our friendly!

[Deja Q]

45. What if troop morale is low? In that condition, somebody who was SUPPOSED

to be guarding would let any ol' sod in, wouldn't he?

[idiosyncratic]

48. In previous wars, troops didn't eat in mess halls where this could

possibly happen. What I heard was that they got their food and dispersed to eat.

This used to be standard operating procedure to protect numbers of troops from vulnerabillity at one time.

[jmowreader]

49. We're looking at North Vietnamese/VC sapper tactics in action

Sappers were the bane of the US military in Vietnam and were one of the major reasons we pulled out. These guys set ambushes, built boobytraps, conducted terrorist bombings and carried out other Fiendish Plans.

An example I know is the Tu Do Club bombing. The Tu Do Club was on Tu Do Street in Saigon and was blown up by the Viet Cong's N-10 Sapper Battalion--or, more specifically, Nguyen Thi Kieu, who was the Saigon agent handler for the N-10.

She first conducted reconnaissance of the target by watching the club to see how the staff dressed. Next, she went to the Cholon market and purchased bargirl clothes, a wig and some makeup. She then practiced until she looked like a bargirl, after which she got a job as a cocktail waitress. She worked at the club long enough to get the other staff to trust her. When this had happened, she built a bomb with 25 pounds of plastique in it. (25 pounds of plastique is a shitload.) This she planted under the bandstand. When she set it off with a timer, the bomb blew the bandstand through the ceiling of the club. It killed the band plus everyone on the dance floor and maimed everyone else in the building.

We apply these lessons to the current situation. The military is hiring local nationals to do all the shit jobs on these bases. None of them want us here. Does anyone here really think that a chow hall staff composed entirely of Iraqis is going to worry too much if Ahmed, the new guy we hired last month, stuffs a large box under one of the tables in the dining room? From the reports of the nature of the injuries incurred in this attack, the bomb was very low--like under a table. Rig it with a detonator designed to go off if anyone kicks the box in addition to the remote firing mechanism, and you're golden.

[democracyindanger]

51. This is why we should fight against

privatization of the military. Don't have a link, but recently a retired general said that "We don't do our own dishes, we don't cook our own meals--this was bound to happen."

KBR, by the way, was running the mess hall.