Is the PNAC the cement that holds the two parties together?

[KlatooBNikto]

The evidence that there is a commonality of interests at the highest levels of both parties is now overwhelming. This is very clearly shown in the way they support the War on Iraq despite the unraveling of all pretexts that led up to the war. People like Hillary Clinton, Charles Schumer,John McCain are all supporters of this war.None of them has raised any questions about the PNAC document which among other things calls for waging a remorseless war to establish American Hegemony over the world by putting down any serious rivals and denying them access to vital resources like oil.

The silence about the PNAC document is the most disturbing aspect of the collusion between the two parties. This is what moved Senator Byrd to remark that on a matter as important as War the only reaction he saw in the Senate was silence.

There are even more ominous items in the PNAC document such as calling for a New Pearl Harbor, (paraphrase 9/11), development of space based weapons and genetic warfare).On all these items our Democratic Representatives are dead silent.

No wonder our base does not like what it sees and stays away from these double crossers who are no more Democrats than George Bush is Santa Claus.

[Walt Starr]

1. DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING!!!!!!!!!!!

Bingo!

Demco is a wholly owned subsidiary of Bushco which merged with Penaco ages ago.

[mazzarro]

2. I am leaning ever more towards that conclusion

eom

[The Doctor.]

3. Yep - sounds logical.

Tell ya what,

It's the fault of Americans for loving comfort too much.

We can't be told the truth.

These people ALL play power games... the only games they know.

Unfortunately, Dems don't realize they are going to be phased out or 'mitigated'.


Hey! What's that creepy voice?

{Voice of ebon mercury};
"I'll be happy to recieve all their souls."

[KlatooBNikto]

5. The shedding of illusions, especially about one's own self ,is probably

the most difficult of all tasks.In our case, we long ago ceased to be a functioning Democracy ceding our independence as citizens and instead deferring to a mindless chorus of "experts".These are the experts who have produced the diabolical document called the PNAC with not even a whimper of protest from our media which is saturated with experts of this kind. Because these experts feed at the money troughs of rightwing foundations they presume to be better than us ordinary citizens and belittle every question that is thrown at them as a conspiracy theory.Our senators and representatives are even more eager to access the money trough and their silence as our Constitution is defiled every day is deafening.

[Walt Starr]

6. The "conspiracy theory" bullshit they fling is the sickest line of all

There is most definitely a conspiracy and it is no "theory" for the entire thing is documented for all to see as surely as Hitler documented his vision of empire in Mein Kampf.

And perusing the names attached to that documentation it is clear for all to see that this is, in fact, a collusion of the two parties.

[The Doctor.]

9. "That nail has a cranial fracture."

Indeed...

You have stuck perfectly on the acquiesence of Americans to those who are proffered as 'experts'.

I have known too many incompetent and fractured people who are called 'experts'.

I highly recommend reading "The Mote in God's Eye" By Pournell if you would like to see the philisophical extrapolation of the 'reign of specialization'.

Otherwise - you nailed it.

Would you be willing to critique something for me?

My perspective is good (IMHO), but that of others, when weighed with my own, is great.

[KlatooBNikto]

11. I would like to read the Mote in God's Eye and will see if I can get it

at our library. Even more than this deferral of our independence to the "experts" I believe our disease is the mad rush to credentialization rather than education.That produces a subservience of mind that has important ramifications for our Democracy. Somehow, we have come to a point that an ordinary citizen who asks questions is inferior to these "experts" who have specialized knowledge of one sort or another and cannot deign to answer our questions.

[The Doctor.]

12. "Dr. - The head of this nail has internal bleeding!"

I have had colleagues with literally dozens of diplomas, certifications, placards, and awards on their walls who couldn't identify a glaring case of dyslexia.

I have had the honor of knowing those who kept the like of one small certification sitting on the corner table near a fern who were true miracle workers. They did not rely on their 'credentials' to determine their certitude... they relied on good questions.

Side note: "Lawyers hate me - I must be doing something right." -Dr. E.

[DireStrike]

16. This is the way I've always felt about "higher education" in America

I feel that obtaining a degree has absolutely zero educational value. All you learn how to do is take tests, and submit to your superiors. There is some mystical push to get everyone to have a degree in something - how can you not go to college? That's what stupid people do. But degrees seem meaningless to me.

Of course, I'm only a second year college student... but it doesn't help that this feeling has increased constantly as long as I've been considering what sort of future to pursue.

The most valuable skill I learned in High School? We called it "Bullshit." Skill in bullshit is easier to gain and more likely to get you good grades. Cheating was also rampant and none of us cared. This is pretty much THE best HS in my city, not just some backwater schoolhouse.

[The Doctor.]

18. Once you have determined your goals...

Give yourself the tools, whatever they are.

If it requires the course - take it.
If you need to hone your BS - fake it.
The bottom line is this:
Know who you are and what you want to do.
If you are missing either of those - you will wind up with degrees and no demeanor, or demeanor and no degrees... respectively.

[KlatooBNikto]

23. I had the good fortune to go to school at Cambridge in UK for my

advanced degree.My professor was one of those curmudgeons that detested rote answers and was properly sneering at those of us who became proud when we produced the"correct" answers. He would say,
" John, it is not the answers that matter, it is the questions that you raise". Just thinking about those days gives me the shivers.

[The Doctor.]

25. I can't tell you how familiar that sounds...

No, really, I can't.

I love Cambridge.

[KlatooBNikto]

27. I hate to even admit how long ago it was.Let us just say it was between

25-35 years ago.

[RBHam]

14. Yeah...."experts" like Ann Coulter, John Fund, etc....

In house circle jerkers.

[The Doctor.]

22. Crap! - my editing period expired!

"'I' before 'E', except after 'C', or sounding like 'A' as in 'Neighbor' and 'weigh'."

[KlatooBNikto]

4. There are several additional items that have bothered me ever since the

War on Iraq brought out this collusion into stark relief:

1. The tortures at Abu Ghraib have not even received the condemnations that are normally reserved for such blatant violations of human rights, especially from our Democrat leaders such as Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton,Joe Biden and others.
2. Senator Joe Lieberman has called the War on Iraq a " just war" without explaining why he considers it to be one.This is even after the exposure of the "yellowcake" pretext, the nonexistent WMD's and the manufactured collusion between Iraq and AlQaeda.
3. The Democrats continue to pussyfoot around the whole issue of withdrawing our troops from Iraq as though such an event is beyond the realm of possibility.

If this is the attitude of our "leaders" of the opposition, wonder what true collusion between the parties would look like?

[The Doctor.]

13. Aaaaaaand Why isn't this 'true collusion'?

C'mon - maintain the illusion... that's key.

(Bet you thought of this after re-reading your post.)

[KlatooBNikto]

19. We seem to have accepted the premise of the PNAC document

that Global hegemony is our natural destiny.That we can enforce our hegemony through any means including use of genetic warfare techniques, space based weapons and the like. Gone are the days of pretense that we are a law abiding nation that will not enter into war unless provoked. Even the idea that our leaders are virtuous men while the foreigners have vile and corruptible leaders is a pretense that has come apart.We are beginning to resemble more and more the enemies of our recent past, the Nazis and the Soviets.And without even the fig leaf of shame that used to color our media's portraits of ourselves as a "shining city on a hill".

[The Doctor.]

21. Refer to post #3 (that's the story morning glory) n/t

[DireStrike]

7. Feeding from the same trough.

There are two major problems in our society, as I see it.

First, internally, we have corporations growing ever stronger, with no counterbalancing organizations on the other side. Unions are being killed off, picked off in fact by corporations. Workers do not function as a group - businessmen do.

Second, externally, there is an idea festering in our society that prevents us from cooperating with other nations. This idea is American Exceptionalism. As long as most of the populace has this idea (and they do,) we will have serious problems with foreign relations.

[KlatooBNikto]

8. Why does a document as demented as the PNAC go unexamined

not merely by our media but by our Senators and Congressmen? And why does a challenger like Kerry not even bring up the question of manufactured pretexts for the War on Iraq during the elections? I am completely baffled by this performance.The only answer I have is that the parties are joined at the hip.Don't ask, Don't tell that seems to be the policy of both parties.

[RBHam]

10. DING! as echoed by Walt Starr....

The CFR is well represented by prominent members of both parties and their foreign policy goals have always included the domination, in any way possible, of the Middle East and other oil producing areas of the world.

There is a split at the top levels over HOW to achieve their aims - but they ALWAYS have eacg other's backs when it comes to blatantly deceiving the American citizenry.

You're being played like marionettes...

[KlatooBNikto]

15. When I read the PNAC document and watched the silence of our

Democratic leaders on this document, it brought back to me an incident that William Shirer relates in his great work The Rise and Fall of The Third Reich. He was visiting a Professor at the University of Heidelberg , a famous institution of higher learning.The Professor was involved in research on the reaction of the human body to extreme cold and extreme heat. After proudly showing him the reaction of a Slav prisoner to repeated dunking in cold and hot water, the Professor boasted about how he has conducted even more severe experiments that got him the coveted Iron Cross from none other than the Fuehrer himself. Shirer was so revolted by the madness of these experiments, he was forced to call the Professor a "horrible quack".

We may very well be witnessing the proliferation of "horrible quacks" in our country.

[RBHam]

17. Sitting down?

Ananbolic steroid technology was first developed when Nazi Doctors experimented on condemned prisoners...

Arnold Schwarzenegger's Papa was associated with the "medical" department of the Austrian Nazi-ennabling Government...

In fact, he was a proud member of the Ausatrian Nazi Party...

Perhaps, after the war, he helped the secret research going...

Sure, it's speculation...

But what if Arnold himself was the first genetically enhanced "Aryan Superman"....

And then ponder the implications of the "election" of President Arnold Schwarzenegger in 2008...

Nice bed time story, eh?

[KlatooBNikto]

20. Horrible quacks, indeed!

[The Doctor.]

24. Well... they're already trashing the Constitution...

And Mom loves arnold.

[KlatooBNikto]

26. I think the reason things like the items we are discussing here go

unexamined is because we now have a confluence of interests of the Right wing Republicans, the socalled moderate Democrats, the Religious Fundamentalists and the Israeli Right Wingers and their American propagandists.The voices of ordinary citizens is drowned out in this massively unanimous chorus.

[luaptifer]

28. the collusion has been my fear for a long time

but first, i assume this is 'the PNAC' document to which you all are referring?

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

and my nightmare has been that the complicity if not actual collusion we've seen comes, first, from the left wing of the republicrat party believing or realizing it has no choice. rebuilding america's defenses and the reality we've seen play out since it's publication shows the dems buying into the whole iraq scam. but why would they have done so easily what any degree of skepticism would have warranted against?

'realizing it has no choice'...my fear is that our leadership is fully cognizant of the Peak Oil scenario that's come to the fore in the last couple years, publicly, that is. and KNOWING that we are terminal oil addicts cause they don't have the will to help change our addiction through enabling legislation, etc., and KNOWING that china, india, and the other emerging industrial strengths of the world are competing for exactly the same drug we are, they KNEW we have to control that oil by some means.

well, hey, saddam's been on the slate for a while, if that 'new pearl harbor' happens anywhere near the ME, picture this...

the coalition of interests the iraq invasion has served has been on board PNAC for a long time. at least under this scenario, lefty republicrats can lay nominal responsibility on the rightys. and hey, iraq oil is once again priced in dollars and if the idiots can get their shit together, we WILL ultimately control the heart of the oil zone and iraq's reserves in the middle of it, and we're there to deal with israel's nasty enemies, and ...

so on.

that's my nightmare, that the representatives of the oil-addicted free world, USA, Inc., saw no other way to keep us sliding faster down the declining slop of the production capacity curve. the iraq farce was easy and can be laid at the feet of the repubs.

but it certainly fits with any number of things that 'our guys' have remained quiet about including the deal kerry made, in secret, to keep 911 off of the table as a campaign issue, among:

Coup d'etat 2004: GOP sits on 3 incriminating reports 'til reelection is a done deal
http://beyondcomfortablynumb.blogspot.com/2004/11/coup-detat-2004-gop-sits-on-3.html

911: Voices of Dissent to a Unanimous Bipartisan Consensus Report
http://beyondcomfortablynumb.blogspot.com/2004/11/911-voices-of-dissent-to-unanimous.html

Record of Bush Administration's Obstruction of Investigation of 911
http://beyondcomfortablynumb.blogspot.com/2004/10/record-of-bush-administrations.html

yeah, my nightmare is that it's only the american people that have been in the dark about the PNAC crap and its fallout and it's because 'our guys' knew we couldn't handle the oil withdrawal symptoms.

[AgadorSparticus]

29. i had come to this conclusion as well. but i didn't have a name for

the common denominator. this rings scarily true.

[KlatooBNikto]

30. I would go even so far as to say that the collusion between the two

parties has produced an Information-Industry Complex with players who have a vested interest in promoting uniformity of thought, avoidance of topics that can cause either embarrasmment or discomfort to the ruling classes and promoting compliance with a world view laid down by the "experts".

This is the stuff of which totalitarianism is born. We are there.

[Nihil]

31. Beautifully summed up.

FWIW, this is not just an American phenomenon: it is certainly true
here in the UK and I suspect in several other countries too.

The clarity of truth is sometimes too painful to behold - that is why
so many prefer to ignore it.

[Karenina]

32. Kicking it back up.

:kick:

[EmpireWeAre]

33. Not a dime's worth of difference

on drugs, human rights, war, corporate power... the list goes on.
I vote in Nov, but my real vote in on April 15th, and nothing is really going to change until a sizable percentage of us hit our neo-fascist state in the only place it understands.

[Al-CIAda]

34. PNAC IS the common connection

Audio from the NYC "9/11 Omissions Hearings"

PART I- Vital Questions NOT ANSWERED, Comission comprimised, 'Failure' rewarded
http://www.septembereleventh.org/documents/911conPartI-26.rm

PART II-
http://www.septembereleventh.org/documents/911conPartII-33.rm

PART III-
http://www.septembereleventh.org/documents/911conPartIII-28.rm

PART IV- PTEC Stock Monitoring and Terrorism Financing (JP MORGAN & CHASE)
http://www.septembereleventh.org/documents/911conPartIV-32.rm


To site-
http://www.911Truth.org/

[satori]

35. Yes

Yes the PNAC started around 60 years under a different name. Back around the 1940s when the A bomb was being built some of the key scientists that built the bomb started to oppose it under the grounds that the technology was to powerful for man to control.

Those scientists were part of the political, educational, scientific community. When the scientist changed their mind and wanted to dismantle the technology of the bomb see Ralph Lapp's book Kill and Overkill he was one of the scientists that advocated the dismantling of the bomb the military at that time freaked out, so the military took over the scientific community, and the military started to dictate in secret what scientists could invent not invent and what they could talk about their inventions, and in order to implement control over the scientific community in secret they had to take over the educational, and political and Media systems here as well.

They have been quite successful at it. Gore was not one of them that is why the DLC and the Republicans went out of their way to have the Supreme Court overturn Gore being elected president in 2000. Gore as Vice-President was well aware of the PNAC, the secret government that has been pulling the stings in DC for the last 60 years.