Even dumber than the attack on Christmas

[neebob]

I just watched a few minutes of The 700 Club with some astronomers (?) - one of whom looked especially deranged - who had studied the movements of the planets and constellations and purportedly identified the Star of Bethlehem as Jupiter, and pinned it down to "about December 25, A.D. 02." Or that was the last in a series of conjunctions of planets and dates offered along with criticisms of astrology by the deranged-looking dude, the point being that the authors of the Bible had the timing right.

Does the Bible say Jesus was born on December 25, A.D. 02 or even in December? I don't know. I was led to believe (by my Mormon dad and others) that he was actually born in April.

Anyway, the magi, being the misguided astrology-believing heathens that they were, interpreted the appearance of this bright star in the womb of the virgin constellation - actually, though, it was more like on her side - pointing in the general direction of Bethlehem as a big sign that said, "A mighty king has been born in Israel."

Then Pat Robertson said that God chose to speak to the magi in a language they understood and "sent these wacky gurus" to see the baby Jesus - who was a toddler by the time they got there, but that's beside the point.

It was the dumbest thing I've seen in a while, using something you believe is wrong (astrology) to support a weak scientific point, but I can see how it would make sense if you were brainwashed or a nutcase.

[donheld]

1. I think you mean Astronomy - but still

These fools are the epitome of stupid.

[neebob]

2. I'm pretty sure these were astronomers

and they were definitely criticizing astrology, but now that you mention it, constellations are part of astronomy if that's what you mean. So, really, it was even dumber than I first thought. See? I got confused and I'm not even brainwashed. Good point.

[Niche]

3. LOL!

[chicagiana]

4. The phenomenon would need to be in Pisces ...

... that was the signal that the lord of the next Astrological age would come. That's where all the Jesus Fish come from.

The story of the magi is kinda independently verified by the Zaroastrians who tell that the magi met with them on the return journey and told that they found the new king. Some would view Jesus as the returned Zaro-aster. He too was supposedly of virgin birth and was prophesized to come again from his own seed.

I firmly believe that the biblical Jesus is the synthesis of a historical person along with the dionysiun sun cult and the old Egyptian Attan sun cult. The magi tale likely came directly from the zaro-astrians.

[neebob]

5. That's funny -

they didn't even mention Pisces. They showed a conjunction of Venus and Jupiter in Leo, which was supposed to represent Israel, and Jupiter in Virgo. But they didn't use the astrological names; they called the constellations the lion and the virgin.

The main point seemed to be that there's scientific proof that Christ was born on or around December 25th, and the idea that God had used astrology to accomplish his purpose wrapped it all up and tied a pretty bow on it. I didn't see the whole thing and didn't do a very good job of explaining it last night.

Interesting point about Pisces and the Jesus fish, which I hadn't heard. In the same vein, in flipping channels last night - which I did for a couple of hours, after debating the coolness of my ex-husband's racism with my mom - I caught a few minutes of some show about Noah's ark on Discovery or one of them.

Apparently, there are a bunch of Noah's ark stories, and one of them is that Noah was a Sumerian who owned a barge as part of some business, and then it rained on top of the Euphrates flooding, and the barge floated out into the Persian Gulf with Noah and his family. And they floated around for anywhere from a week to a year, drinking beer.

[chicagiana]

6. The best Noah origin seems to be ...

The best Noah origin seems to be the flooding of the Black Sea basin.

There was once a wall holding back the mediterranian sea. People lived down by a freshwater lake. The straights burst and "flooded the world" at least as those people knew it.

It would be natural for people to gather up their livestock and wait out the flood on the lake. This particular flood never quite abided.

The inhabitants of the region would have become refugees. No doubt they would have spread their tale far throughout the region. Certainly far enough to influence the early Bablyonians and provide spark for the epic of Gilgamesh.


As far as Jesus and Pisces goes, just search for "Pisces Jesus Astrological Age" on Google and read. Isn't the internet great!!!


Just remember that Catholic means "universal". It is an imalgamation of other faiths to try to bring them altogether. This is why there is so much pagan iconography in classic Christianity. It's also the likely reason that most Christians celebrate on Sunday (literally the day of the Sun (Domingo), vs Saturday (Sabbath (Day of Saturn (Sabado)). The Sun cult (of which Constantine was born into) worshipped on Sunday.

The Church of James (Jesus' brother) (Jesus Jews) follow the Jewish tradition of the sabbath complete with sun down friday to sun down saturday. The seventh day adventists have also rebelled and declared saturday to be the proper day of rest and celebration.

[neebob]

7. I find these kinds of stories interesting

You just have to figure there was a big flood somewhere, and some dude somehow ended up on a boat with his family and some animals, and the story was told and retold and embellished to the point where God warned the dude that he was about to destroy the world and instructed him to build a big boat and fill it with animals. And so the dude went out and gathered up two of every kind of animal in the whole world, and they not only all fit in the boat, but they also got along and apparently changed their eating habits, and eight people managed to take care of all of them.

And when this flood that covered the whole earth subsided - which is why I guess people in general and the dude in particular had to live for something like nine hundred years - the eight people and the animals all went out and repopulated the earth.

I'd like to hear Pat Robertson's explanation of how this really happened. Well, no I wouldn't. His show only caught my attention because Lynne Cheney had been on, hocking a book entitled When Washington Crossed the Delaware: A Wintertime Story for Young Patriots. And the Noah thing only caught my attention because Noah and his family all had painted-on unibrows. :)

[chicagiana]

26. Lynn Cheney on 700 hocking books ...

... and she didn't mention "Sisters" ?????? :eyes: :silly:

No Pat Robertson is a fundamentalist, so he would say it happened EXACTLY as it says in the Bible. Except that Pat is more than happy to add his own details.

One need only watch the art of story-telling to see the origins of allegory. The job of the traditional story-teller is that of a small circus. They hang painted backdrops and tell the story in dramatic fashion. They're paid based on who wants to here the story. So they must have showmanship, they must make the story grand and exciting.

The other source are "official sources" who have been spinning information forever. The job of historians/archaeologists is to take traditional stories and de-spin/allegorize them.

[jmowreader]

8. I heard another explanation for the Jesus Fish

Well, two actually.

A Pentecostal once told me that the Jesus Fish was symbolic of the miracle of the loaves and the fishes. Obviously a Jesus Fish is way cooler than a Jesus Loaf.

A Lutheran told me that Christians a long time ago, back when they really were persecuted (this lady thought the new "gotta be persecuted to be a good Christian" thing was a load of shit; she said she'd never been persecuted and was very happy about that) were afraid to talk about Jesus to people who they weren't sure were Christians, so the Jesus Fish was kind of a Masonic handshake--one guy would draw a semicircle, and if the other guy was a Christian he'd draw another semicircle to complete the shape of the fish--once again, to symbolize the miracle of the loaves and the fishes. Then they'd talk about Jesus.

The Pisces phenomenon sounds plausible too.

The thing is, no one really knows how these things get started.

[Orangepeel]

12. I thought the Jesus fish came from the initials of the greek words

for something like, "Jesus Christ son of God" which spell fish in Greek.

At least I read a novel that explained it as such (supposedly early Christians, many of whom were greek slaves, were persecuted by the romans and the fish became a secret symbol by which they could recognize each other.

Of course, it's quite likely that's all complete horseshit.

[neebob]

15. I always figured the fish symbol was because

Christ had asked one of the apostles - though I always forget which one - who was a fisherman to come and be fishers of men. But that was just a guess.

[misanthrope]

21. Both this post...

...and the second half of post #8 are correct according to what I learned in college.

The Greek word for fish, "ichthus," can be formed from the first letters of each word in the phrase "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior." Best I can remember, it's "Iesus CHristos THeo Uios Setor" or something like that (it's been about 20 years).

Fish are a recurring motif in the Gospels of the New Testament.

[Starlight]

9. No. There is no record of Jesus' birthdate.

December was chosen because it was already a pagan holiday. Same thing with Easter.

[InvisibleBallots]

10. really?

Who chose December, and Easter? Which Pagan holidays were these? Which historical documents prove this? Thanks.

[Orangepeel]

here is a source about Christmas

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0192.html

Prior to the legalization of Christianity by the Emperor Constantine in the year 313, no universal date or even formal celebration of Christmas is found. For instance, Origen (d.255), St. Irenaeus (d. 202), and Tertullian (d. 220) do not include Christmas or its date on their lists of feasts and celebrations.

After legalization, the Church was better able to establish ;universal dates of feasts and to organize the public celebration. Moreover, we now see the Church addressing controversies concerning Jesus as true God and true man and how He entered this world. Such concern would focus more attention on the importance of celebrating Christmas, the birth of our Lord.

On the more practical side of this issue, Roman pagans used to gather at the hill where the Vatican is presently located to commemorate the “Birth of the Unconquered Sun” This pagan feast was celebrated throughout the Empire either on Dec. 25 (according to the Julian Calendar) or on Jan. 6 (according to the Egyptian calendar). Although not proven with certainty, some historians credit Constantine, who declared Sunday as a day; of rest in the Empire, with replacing the pagan festival with that of Christmas. Interestingly, since the 200s, Jesus was honored with the title, “Sun of Justice.”

[Orangepeel]

13. oops. double post.

[Behind the Aegis]

17. easy

Constantine chose Christmas as December 25th to coincide with the celebration of Sol Ivictus. Easter coincides with Passover (Jewish holiday) and an early pagan ritual praising fertility (thus, the bunnies and eggs). I don't know if Constantine proclaimed that one too, or the Council of Nicea did. You're Welcome!

[Starlight]

24. Learn to use google.

That's one of my pet peeves. It really annoys me when people demand that others do research for them & present them with history or background or documentation or expert opinions or whatever reference materials they've decided they would like to see. BTA is a saint to do it. :)

[xerenthar]

11. Robertson is an idiot.

[Behind the Aegis]

14. Just saw a great piece on this!

It was on the Discovery Channel. It was by the "Mummy Detective!" He had an astrologer that said the "star" of Bethlehem was Jupiter, and it appeared on April 17, 6 BCE. The Magi set out, and when they arrived, the "star" went into retrograde and pointed down to Bethlehem, and they presented gifts to the baby (toddler) Jesus around December 19 of the same year! Very neat stuff!

[neebob]

16. Well, I'd say the Mummy Detective

is a lot more credible than Pat Robertson!

[Behind the Aegis]

19. It was mad cool!

It was a program on the three "kings." He explained where they came from and many other things. I found it very cool! It also pointed out that Jupiter was in Aries (the sign of Judea), so the conjunction of the Sun and Jupiter (bringer of kings) and they took this as the "king of the Jews" was being born in Judea. Then right as they got to Judea, Jupiter went into retrograde and "stood above" the city where the new "king" was born. I found it all very interesting!

[G_j]

18. April

saw this spoken of on another show. That was when Jupiter was visible in the east.
interesting..

[dflprincess]

20. There used to be a professor at the University of Minnesota

who was famous for his Star of Bethlehem lecture.

He said it was the result of the conjunction of 3 planets and that it would have happened in March (I can't remember what year he placed it in.)

[VTMechEngr]

23. 6 BC I believe.

[VTMechEngr]

22. Its believed that Jesus was born in April.

The wise men may have come with the gifts in December. New theories from the History channel. Well documented.

[Arianrhod]

25. Depends on which Gospel you believe.

Matthew states that Jesus was 2 years old at the time Herod sent his soldiers out to kill the Messiah. (Matt 2:16) Since we know that Herod the Great died in 4 BCE, that would mean a birth date of around 6 BCE.

However, Luke tells us that Jesus was born at the time of the census ordered upon the new governorship of Quirinius (Luke 2:1-2). We know the date of this census; it was 6 CE.

There therefore is a 12-year spread between birth dates given in the NT. This may be the longest recorded labor in history. :)

BTW, Luke may be closest in his estimate. If Jesus was actually crucified by Pilate, then that would've had to have occurred before the end of 36 CE, when Pilate was called back to Rome after the Pharisees petitioned Caesar for his removal. (This latter fact strengthens the evidence, as Pilate's predilection for crucifying rebels was one of the primary complaints the Pharisees presented against him in their appearance at Caesaria Philippi.) The Gospels say Jesus was around 30 when he began teaching, and the longest period of his ministry (as recorded by John) was 3 years. (The others give 1 year.) If he was 33 when he died in 36 CE, that would mean a birth date of 3 CE. If he was 31--which is more likely, IMO-- then it would be 5 CE. Pretty close for Luke (who probably took his historical data from the writings of Josephus, whose writing style he obviously copied.)