Is there anything that can be done to stop WALMART. Just this year it has

[wankawanka]

taken out two grocery stores, a Pharmacy, and a cool music store out in my town. Technically if employs want to unionize there boss can not stop them. I wish like the AFL-CIO would move in there so Walmart had to pay there people fairly so it would be a fair playing field with them an local business. Right now they are like a Cancer.

[MSgt213]

1. If things continue on their current path we may not be able to afford

to shop at Walmart. With no jobs or healthcare the only thing we will be able to afford is food and maybe rent.

[Dulcinea]

220. They won't give you cash back on gift cards anymore!

I went to Wally World today to return a gift, & got a gift card. I bought a few things we needed for the house just to get rid of the damn thing, & when I went to pay, there was a whopping $2.12 left on the card. The cashier refused to give me the cash back! So now I'm stuck with a minuscule amount of Wally World credit!

Just wanted to tell all you that story.

Rant over!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. organize a Buy Local effort

encourage people to shop at the remaining local stores. You can let your friends and other locals know that it is a WalMart policy to undersell local stores until they have been shut down. After that, prices at WalMart go up. I've seen this done, the last time to a craft store. BTW, our local pharmacy regularly UNDERSELLS WalMart and the people are friendlier too.

[Paleocon]

3. I'm not sure what you are upset about???

Sure, it is a shame that small, local businesses go out of business because WalMart undersells them, but it is good for consumers because they are able to buy more stuff for less money.

I am hurting as much as the next guy besause of higher gas prices and increased housing prices so any chance I get to save money is something I need to take advantage of.

So I guess my question is this. Are you upset because prices are now lower and you can buy more stuff (not understandable) or are you made because the small businesses haven't been able to survive (understandable)?

[Webster Green]

5. Yeah, cheap crap made by Chinese slave labor...

And buying more stuff for less money is fine with you, even if it means local businesses being forced to close their doors.

Have a very merry greedy, arrogant, American fucking Christmas!

[Paleocon]

9. OK, you're being obnoxious, no response for you.

n/t

[Webster Green]

10. Whatever dude!

I'm sure your response would be as clueless as your original post.

[Desert Liberal]

252. Thank you!

For standing up and saying that. We all need to realize that Wal-Mart is a monopoly and things are not going to be better just because we can buy more shit cheaper.
Wal-Mart promotes unfair practices in the workplace, routinely pays women less (which it is being sued for as I write this), and stocks inferior quality product made in Chinese, Indonesian and who-knows-how-many other sweatshops at the expense of American jobs.
I personally have stopped going to Wal-Mart. Yes, things are more expensive in some respects but I can look at the 'Made in the USA' label on my products and know that I am helping my fellow Americans.
I know they probably won't really miss MY money, per se, but I think if enough of us scream 'STOP!' at them loud enough, we will be heard.
Boycott Wal-Mart. Tell others to do the same. Stop feeding the corporate pig at the expense of American jobs.
Tell them we WILL buy American, thank you very much!

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Paleocon]

11. You're not being obnoxious.... So you get a response.

I see your points and I see how you are thinking farther down the line.

I agree that we are buying cheap doo dads that are mostly Chinese made that we mostly don't need. I am looking at it from my perspective. (I know, that makes me a bad person.) I am "fairly" disciplined so I only buy the things I need to live and if I can get them from WalMart cheap it does help me "right now".

Now, for the people that buy everything they see on credit with no plan how to pay it back tomorrow... Does it make any difference where they bankrupt themselves?

I'd support a "buy America" campaign. Which party is offering that?

Oh that's right... Neither. Neither one is interested in putting America first and neither one is interested in securing our borders and neither one is interested in protecting our industries.

You show me a political party that puts that in their platform and I'll show you a party that wins a majority in the senate, a majority in the house, and wins the white house.

[DireStrike]

16. Yeah...

I don't know what is up with our political leadership. I am almost as unhappy with the Ds as I am with the Rs.

I hope the ultimate outcome of these goings-on is a reconciliation of the populace with the political process, and tolerant discussion. Far too many people are looking at it like a football game. My team won, yay! Well, great. Now your team can kill you.

[Paleocon]

18. Agreed. Sometimes even the home team is in the wrong...

Merry Christmas.

[DireStrike]

24. Merry Christmas to you too!

May you obtain more joy from your interactions with friends and family than from your new toys!

:toast:

[Paleocon]

36. LOL

:toast:

[InvisibleBallots]

152. hey I'm with you paleocon

"I'd support a "buy America" campaign. Which party is offering that?

Oh that's right... Neither. Neither one is interested in putting America first and neither one is interested in securing our borders and neither one is interested in protecting our industries.

You show me a political party that puts that in their platform and I'll show you a party that wins a majority in the senate, a majority in the house, and wins the white house."

...

I pretty much agree with all of this - putting America first, securing the borders, protecting our industries. I also think any party offering this would win landslides like you suggest. Then again, I'm usually called "socialist" more than "paleocon" (but I'm called that too) - I wonder if we would have enough common ground to vote the same way?

[DireStrike]

7. Very few are upset that prices are lower.

That is a straw man argument. When put forth in conversation, it is always used in a derisive way (ie, how can you be so stupid as to be aginst lower prices?) There may be some convoluted economic reason for disliking lower prices, but ultimately it will be linked to the killing of small businesses, the establishment of monopoplies or oligarchies, and control over consumers. That is a dangerous transgression against free enterprise, and should not be tolerated in a capitalist society.

Of course, lower prices are not always beneficial to consumers, either...

[Paleocon]

12. I see your point too...

One supplier of any item is a monopoly and we shouldn't tolerate that.

Look at the crappy service we tolerate from the post office.

Seriously though, I do see your point.

[LincolnMcGrath]

23. "Look at the crappy service we tolerate from the post office"

Another RW anti-union talking point. Currently waiting for a Fed ex package that is 3 days late here. The USPS does quite well for having to operate on a shoestring budget constantly under attack from repug congress-critters.

[Paleocon]

37. Maybe the post office is nice where you are...

But I don't think they'd be in business long if they had any real competition...

http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?Id=1696

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. Have you ever mailed a letter in a foreign country?

If you had, you would appreciate the postal service we have here.

[yella_dawg]

237. I have.

The USPS is awesome compared to the competition.

[Cobalt Violet]

92. The post office works for me.

Of the many painting I have sent in the mail, none have be damaged, none have been lost, none have been late. The clerks have been great to me.

[tsuki]

68. True, I now buy my light bulbs at the local lighting store. They cost

more, but they last longer. They have the lumens and the hours on the package. If you have to buy something cheaper, but buy it three times, are you saving money.

[Silverhair]

185. Try switching to the new flourescent light bulbs.

They have more lumens, use one fourth the electricy, and are supposed to last for years.

[idiosyncratic]

8. It is never good that small, local businesses go out of business

That ruins entire communities. Please read this page, and if you have broadband, watch the entire show.

Is Wal-mart Good for America?

I can't even walk into a Wal-Mart anymore without feeling "icky." I had to go in one a while back because my friend was picking up her contact lenses there.


Boycott Wal-Mart. Shop Costco instead.

[Paleocon]

14. Educate me... What makes Costco any better?

Thank you.

[LincolnMcGrath]

21. For one the CEO doesn't think he is worth MILLIONS in Salery

Two They are matching the Pay for citizen soldiers currently fighting for "your right to cheap crap."

[No Mandate Here.]

25. Costco values its employees as people

They pay a living wage to them, offer a better benefit package, and are still reasonably priced.

I have four main anti Walmart arguments:

1. Even if the stuff they sell is identical looking, it is not as high a quality as the same goods in other stores. The Scott tissue is rough, the fabric in the clothes is thinner, and so on. Why does it make sense to pay ten percent less and have to replace things twice as often.

2. They extort their suppliers. Two very recent contrasting stories about Bedford, PA... A few years ago, Walmart put a distribution warehouse there, and created a few hundred jobs, plus the several stores nearby. Every body said hurray, we're getting new employers here. A year or so ago, Hedstrom, a long time manufacturer of swing sets in Bedford, was told that they were too expensive for Walmart, and that, if they couldn't shave another dollar or six off their products, Mall wart was buying elsewhere. This would have been below their cost, so they refused. Last month, the plant closed, throwing away 500 good jobs.

3. Their predatory pricing, as indicated in the initial post of this thread. They move in, sell at their supposed low prices until the local economy "stabilizes", which means that the local competitors are closed. They then jack their prices back up.

4. The Walton siblings each get $ 150 million a year in dividends alone, plus their "wages". The AVERAGE wage for their employees is $ 8.50 per hour. A high percentage of the employees are technically not full time, so they are not eligible for paid benefits. Think about this. If a worker is full time, they might make $ 15,000 a year. Their bosses make 10,000 times what they make. It is estimated that, in California alone, Walmart employees cost the state nearly $ 100 million a year in low income health coverage, because they are not able to get any other coverage.

A super center opened here about two years ago, and, believe it or not, I haven't yet been there. More and more people will begin to feel this way, if we educate them. Please feel free to use any of this info.

Merry Christmas.

[BrotherBuzz]

30. Great points....

And if I can add to the list with regards to California...Not only do the employees cost the state a lot of money, the local governments suffer too. To latch onto the tax revenue they go to extremes to accommodate the stores by making 'improvements' in the infrastructures (roads, intersections. stop lights, etc.) that cost about as much as the taxes generated. In a nutshell, we are privatizing the profits and socializing the costs.

[Nobody]

40. I also want to add... Wal Mart gives its workers seminars on food stamps

Instead of paying their people a decent wage, their training includes how to apply for social services like food stamps. The state is paying their operating costs.

[PallasAthena]

269. Not only food stamps but also Medicaid.... the state pays

for Wal-Mart's employees' health insurance in the majority of cases...
and when the state pays, YOU pay!!

[idiosyncratic]

27. Check out BuyBlue.org. Costco donates to Democrats

Before you shop, check here

Also, I buy a surprising amount of stuff at Thrift Stores. It takes more time to find things, but you sure save money that way . . . and sometimes I find unique items that have become my newest treasures.

I've found name-brand items by Marmot and Patagonia and The North Face. Things I could never afford otherwise. :)

[Arkansas Gazette]

131. Look for food co-ops and farmers markets.

Many communities have them. For clothing and furniture, check the resale stores. Locally, we have a community organization that employs handicapped people who rebuild furniture and repair appliances. These workers are mostly good craftsmen who turn out top-quality work. They just can't work at the speed required of workers on modern production lines by greedy corperations that want quantity instead of quality.

[DireStrike]

28. I think it's mostly labor practices, but I'm definitely NOT an expert.

[sonicx]

20. All the while, Walmart employees get terrible wages/benefits and...

get treated like dirt in general (and yes, the slave labor production from overseas, including China which has forced abortions).

oh well, at least i get my 50 cent box of cereal!

[jmowreader]

45. It's not all that good for consumers

Wal-Mart is capable of driving all of its competitors in an area out of business. After it does this, Wal-Mart SOP is to raise prices on the items it used to kill the other businesses in the area.

Let's talk supply chain. Any item will go through several steps from the time it's raw materials until it's in its final home. If we're talking about a ceramic bowl...

metal-oxide suppliers will sell raw metal oxides to...
glaze manufacturers who will sell to...
clay manufacturers who sell both clays and purchased glazes to...
pottery companies who make bowls and sell them to...
pottery wholesalers who sell the bowls to...
department store distribution centers who ship these bowls in crates to...
individual department stores who sell the bowls to...
housewives who take the bowls home, fill them with cereal and put them in front of...
four-year-olds who throw the bowls across the room because the cereal is "yukky," breaking the bowls into a million pieces, causing the whole cycle to be repeated.

(Never mind the fact that four-year-olds should only be given melamine.)

Wal-Mart sits in positions six and seven on that supply chain. If Wal-Mart decides it wants to pay 75 cents per bowl instead of 78 so they can drop the price of those bowls from $1.56 to $1.50 and retain a 100-percent IMU, and they want 100 million bowls, it's going to squeeze everyone right down to the metal-oxide dealers because the pottery wholesaler can't eat three million dollars without sharing the pain. (Never mind the fact that the pottery wholesaler was probably paying 74 cents per bowl before Wal-Mart decided that bowl needed a Rollback!)

Many DUers are heavily into macroeconomics.

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. It's not just the small businesses that have trouble

how about their employess who are underpaid?
how about their employees who can't afford health care?
how about the workers in Asia who make things sold at WalMart and are paid less than a dollar a day?
how about the illegal immigrants hired by WalMart?

[reprobate]

116. The fact that $1100 of your tax dollars go for each walmart employee

to pay for health care, etc that walmart does not pay for. Yeah, that's the free market at work.

[firebee]

137. Okay my gentle snowflake...

This is how it works...

Wal Mart imports cheap products from overseas produced by slave labor... In case you didn't know... this is commonly referred to in the corporate world as limitig liabilities and maximizing profits, but it's known to the common man as exploiting the labor market for cheap labor. In return... Wal Mart sells these cheap ass products at whatever price the market will bare and maximizes their profits while undercutting the local competition with their prices, which gives you cheaper $#!t to buy.

Then Wal Mart furthers their profiteering venture by hiring immigrants or desperate American workers that are out of work because the manufacturing industry is in China or India. Due to the competition between foreign labor and the desperate American labor, Wal Mart is able to drive their wages and benefits down to a disrespectable level and profit even more.

In the end... A Wal Mart investor or CEO ends up making about 42 times the amount your laborer does on average and they put small business out of business, which creates an even better labor market to take advantage of.

Their $#!t might be cheap, but their kind of $#!t is the reason our employment rate isn't keeping up with the growth of our population and Wal Mart is the reason the labor market's wages are dropping significantly on average.

So... if you want to support a higher unemployment rate, lower wages and accelerte the corporate corruption of our legislation; Buy your crap from Wal Mart.

[MsTryska]

206. Do you know the cost of

that "more stuff for less money"?



Did you know Tupperware took it's jobs to China, because Walmart essentially said - look - i want these things made for this much money. do it however you can.



So basically Walmart set it's price for Tupperwares goods. Seeing as they are Tupperwares largest clinet, Tupperware had no choice but to move their operations overseas, so that they could bring their product in at Walmart's required price.



SO for those cheaper goods for less money, american workers lost their jobs. Prolly went on unemployment, and some on assistance, and now Walmart's just shagged ya coming and going.

hope you got time to enjoy it.

[MadHound]

275. Here's a couple of tidbits to change your paradigm

First, when a WalMart moves into town, for every job it creates, it destroys 1.5 jobs locally. In addition, the jobs it creates are much lower paying than the jobs it destroys. Hard to buy anything, at any price when you don't have a job.

Second, WalMart is the biggest corporate welfare queen going. WalMart extracts over 1 billion dollars a year in subsidies, property taxes etc from local city and county governments just for locating a new store. In addition, we the taxpayers get to pick the tax tab for the 1.25+ billion dollars that state and federal governments pay each year to WalMart families in the form of food stamps, WIC, welfare, free school lunches, etc, because WalMart pays luch low low wages that many if not the majority of it's employees qualify for the benefits.

Sorry, you may think that WalMart is simply another giant corporation that climbed to the top through fair play and low low prices. But that notion is simply flat out wrong. People, both here in the US have subsidized this behemoth's growth, not just with tax dollars and lost revenue, but with blood, tears, and human suffering. Next time you're in WalMart, look at the tags that say Made in China, and think to yourself that WalMart is the single largest importer of sweatshop and prison made goods. Do you really want that in your house? What does that say about you personally. Not a damn thing good, that's for sure.

[chomskysright]

4. I think you simply buy less.....

and simplify your life...asking yourself questions about what do you REALLY need? I thinkWalmart has its hold on us re: our consumerism: it has upheld it. I think you expand the Jan 20th day which is being promoted as 'not a darn dime' to spend day to other days of your life.

[Paleocon]

13. That'd take too much discipline...

I agree with you 100%, but Americans are too lazy to not consume themselves to death.

They'll be plenty of evidence of that tomorrow when we unwrap 20+ gifts each...

[tsuki]

69. Not here.

[China_cat]

15. Use it up

wear it out, make it do or do without...my grandmother.

[Democrats_win]

17. Walmart shirts wear out quick nt.

[Paleocon]

19. Welcome to DU newbie!!! LOL!!!

Merry Christmas! :)

[complain jane]

155. Wal-Mart's a nasty store to begin with.

My best friend shops there obsessively, she lives in a different state and that's the only gig in town out there in the woods. But one has sprung up here near me and another's coming soon too and I have to say I think their stores are nasty. Maybe it's just this specific one, but every time I've been in it there's crap all over the floor, boxes all half-assed and opened, and salespeople who are clueless.

I'll take my little neighborhood stores any day over that crap if I can help it.

[OneTwentyoNine]

32. Glad someone else figure out that cheap Chinese crap they sell...

People beat their doors down to save a couple of bucks. Well HELL YES it carries a cheap price tag,the crap will be worn out in six months and then you can BUY again.

Most of their clothes feel like tissue paper IMO,its mostly crap...

[Clark2008]

163. And, since Wal-Mart rarely builds inside the city limits

of any metropolitan area (because they don't have pay both city and county taxes), there is also the A.) Failure to pay for the infrastructure to support the cars going from inside the city to outside the city limit to shop and B.) the wasted gasoline to do so.

I, personally, stopped shopping at Wal-mart years ago for those two reasons above - it had little to do with their political leanings. But, now that I know that and about how they treat their employees, I'm glad I stopped shopping there when I did.

[Silverhair]

186. ALL the WM I have ever known are inside city limits.

Rarely builds inside city limits? Horsecrap!!! All the ones around here are inside of their city limits and a new one is being built that is inside the limits of the city it is going up in.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

199. All the ones in the Northeast are in the'burbs

unlike Texas, land is very expensive here, and there's not a lot of space. Walmart tends to need a lot of square footage, and there just isn't a lot of that in Boston.

[Silverhair]

200. Even the suburbs are inside somebodies city limits.

I have never seen a WM that is NOT inside somebodies city limits. Granted, WM does not try to have stores in downtown metro, but they are always inside somebodies city limit.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

201. We don't have city limits here

our cities and towns are compact and don't cover huge areas like in other, less populated parts of the country.

My metro area is the second most densely populated next to NY Metro. Most Walmarts are at least 10 miles ouside the city itself. I know your cities are often 10 miles wide, but to give you some perspective: if you drive 30 miles North or South of Boston, you end up in another state.

[Silverhair]

204. ?????

Now you have really got me confused about how your town gov'ts are organized. Around here, the suburbs are cities themselves. My town, some miles outside of Dallas, has city limits. There is a legal jurisdiction where town ordnances are in effect, and across that line, they aren't. That is what I am refering to as city limits. You have to have something similar to that, so the local police will know where they can enforce what. And there are areas that are outside of any city limits and are county controlled. I have been in Boston numerous times. (I once drove 18 wheelers for a few years.) Are you saying that WM there builds in county areas?

I think you may have illuminated for me why I defend WM and so many here hate WM. It may be partly because of some of the differences between red/blue states. For me, the choices is almost always between a big chain and another big chain, so what's the difference? So I go for the best price/value for me - my own economic interest. We saw the first supermarkets down here in the 1950's. Mom & Pops down here dried up in the 60's in almost every type of market. I wonder if the Mom & Pops stayed around longer up there? Did they?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

209. We don't have as much of a county/township designation

as newer areas of the country. You have to understand that this area has been developed since the early 1600s. Walmart builds in towns.

We have state laws, and towns can decide their own zoning laws, whether they want to be a 'dry' town, etc. I think the way Texas is organized reflects the Western, pioneer aspect to setting up local government. Here I guess our concept of local government is more British, and it's also because of the density of population in a small area.

I've only been to a Walmart once. I don't understand the big deal, as there are many mom and pop stores and local chains where I can find better things for less money. Plus the Walmart store I went to was dirty and merchandised poorly.

We do have more local stores up here, so I have many more options than just shopping in a chain store. If you've been to Boston, I'm sure you noticed how crowded it is, the traffic sucks, and that a lot of people rely on public trans. Maybe that's why local businesses that are easy to walk to or subway to still thrive.

[Cobalt Violet]

94. And their cheap shoes fall apart in the rain.

And welcome to DU.:hi:

[Silverhair]

188. Mine haven't. I get all my shoes at WM, and I have had no problem.

And I love the really low prices. A pair of shoes from WM lasts me about a year or more, and costs about $15. Why should I pay $100+ for shoes at another store that is STILL PART OF A GIANT CHAIN????

[Solon]

216. I have a question for you...

do you have a clear conscience? I ask this seriously, because, while you are enjoying your 15 dollar shoes, the 12 year old who made them is chained to a sewing machine. And you are empowering that, I don't understand that mentality. Its like the disconnect between the benevolent slave owner, and the resentment his slaves has for him. Is it really any different?

[Silverhair]

221. So now you try to manipulate me using guilt?

That means that I have won the economic arguement.

The small company my wife works for has built a factory in China, and we don't have kids chained to work stations.

[Solon]

226. I don't think so...

First off, it has been demonstrated, in this country, that Wal*Mart is in many ways, becoming the only player on the retail stage. In our area, we lost 2 department stores, one local, 2 hardware stores, both local, lost a large amount of jobs in this city, well over 3,000, and all we gained was 300 or so from Wal*Mart, and you call that good economics?

[Silverhair]

227. Change is part of markets.

Small rural retailers in the 1920s were badly hurt by Sear selling by catalog. Sears in turn was hurt by Wal-Mart. Your argument is that you simply don't want change. But change is part of life. The efficient will always force out the inefficient.

Wal-Mart was able to do better because of the thousand of others who voted with their money for the lower priced stuff. It was in their economic interest to do so. They did not owe anything to the other stores. They had no contract to continue shopping there. The other stores needed to adjust.

The store is there to benefit me - the customer. I am not there to benefit the store, although that happens. If the store ceases to be the best benefit to me, I go elsewhere. What happens to the store is not my concern.

Five stores employed 3,000 people????? I don't think so. If they did, they were horribly overstaffed, and had to be charging way too high prices to cover that kind of overhead, and that hurts the customer.

[Solon]

230. I just mentioned the "Big Box" Retailers that a locally owned...

Our department stores, Kmart and Venture(Local), had at one time 5 stores between them, as far as the Hardware stores, somewhere around an additional 5, plus many of the manufacturers around here closed up because there customers bottomed out, and Wal*Mart wouldn't buy from them. This is not about change, this is about viability, things simply cannot countinue the way they are, it is not sustainable. This has little to nothing to do with effeciency, more along the lines of a skewed marketplace. When Wal*Mart moves into a town, they undercut all prices to drive out competitors, the competitors are penalized because they are too small to begin with and cannot compete. This is by the way, ILLEGAL, but unfortunately, Wal*Mart can afford the fines that are levied against it. What happens is a Monopoly over the area, that is bad, no matter how you slice it, bad economically, and bad for the customer. For now Wal*Mart is the only player in town, and since its been losing money at the store all those years, it has to make up for it somehow.

[Silverhair]

232. Why should a manufacturer close up over a local Wal-Mart?

I don't understand that. A manufacturer has to be selling further than his own town, or he is already in serious trouble no matter what Wal-Mart does. The product that the small company my wife works for is sold nationally, even though they have only about 200 employees.

I have to shut this down for today. It is past time for me to get to work. Luckily, I am self employed so I only answer to myself, but right now the boss Me is screaming at the side of Me that is posting, to quit and get to work. I will check the thread tomorrow.

BTW - What part of the country do you live in? Here in the Dallas area, WM is just another big store in a land of big stores. Mom & Pops disappeared around here a long time ago. That's a large part of the reason why I don't understand why everybody hates them so much now. It won't bring the M & Ps back. The void would just be filled by another big discounter.

[Solon]

234. I think that is your problem...

lack of perspective, we still have a few local businesses, but only in niche markets that Wal*Mart doesn't provide. I don't hate Wal*Mart, I simply don't shop there because it is against my best economic interests. As far as manufacturers go, ask Rubbermaid how good Wal*Mart was to them? Oh yeah, you can't, they went out of business and now their brand is sold under another company, my bad. Hell you should hear my Uncle talking about Wal*Mart, and how they would demand his company to produce at levels Wal*Mart knows he cannot meet, and then turn around and double the order overnight, and when not delivered, fine him for being late. They change the rules to suit them, not anyone else, they are above the law, and that is wrong. We all are not in areas like yours, buy some perspective with the money you got, not all of us live in "free market heaven" a mythical place if I ever heard of one. This is not a utopia, where the biggest company in the world actually got there by its own bootstraps, no I live in reality, and realize that they stepped on a lot of people to get to that place.

[Solon]

236. BTW: its not just ONE Wal*Mart, its 5 in a 10 mile radius...

[IndyOp]

22. Walmart is a major contributor to the Repubs --

In my opinion, businesses that give corporate contributions to Repubs are to be avoided -- it is a sick relationship. I found the list below at <http://www.ohiodems.org> while researching fraud in the 2004 elections.

REPUBLICANS
WalMart, $467K, 97% to Republicans;
K-Mart, $524K, 86% to Republicans;
Home Depot, $298K, 89% to Republicans;
Target, $226K, 70% to Republicans;
Circuit City Stores, $261K, 95% to Republicans;
3M Co., $281K, 87% to Republicans;

DEMOCRATS
Price Club/Costco donated $225K, of which 99% went to democrats;
Magla Products (Stanley tools, Mr. Clean), $22K, 100% to Democrats;
Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia, $153K, 99% to Democrats;
Estee Lauder, $448K, 95% to Democrats;
Guess ? Inc., $145K, 98% to Democrats;
Calvin Klein, $78K, 100% to Democrats;
Liz Claiborne, Inc., $34K, 97% to Democrats;
Levi Straus, $26K, 97% to Democrats;

[complain jane]

157. Thank you for posting this,

I just asked this question before I saw this post. Thanks. This is all I need to know to know Wal-Mart's out (not that I'm shocked).

[sbj405]

26. Walmart employees need to be educated on their rights to organize

Imagine working a low wage job which is probably the only job in town with little education. If their manager tells them they aren't allowed to organize and threatens firing them, these people don't know any better. We need to educate them (and all workers) about the rights to organize and form unions.

[wankawanka]

29. that right what we need is a major union to move in

that boycoting stuff will only go so far

[Paleocon]

59. LOL...

Yeah!

[wuushew]

63. Are you anti-union?

I don't see what is so comical. I believe Walmart stores in other countres have been unionized so I don't know why the same can't happen here.

[tsuki]

71. China is allowing its Walmart workers to unionize.

[Paleocon]

85. Not at all....

We are the richest, fattest, most self-centered nation in the world...

Why would you think I am "anti-union"???

[HuskiesHowls]

31. Not to mention local tax breaks!! n/t

[Dees]

33. The story of the butchers.

As I understand it. One day in the land of Walmartdom there were butchers working away at their trade. And, on another day, they were all gone. Instead of freshly butchered meats there was case ready meats. Why? The butchers were talking of organizing. Pfff! Just like that they were gone. They are the Adolph Coors Co. of retailing.

[left15]

35. RFID tags

All the cashiers will go Pfff! soon as they get their RFID tags working.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

34. Maybe it will help unions come back. If people had half a brain they would

Instead they've been programmed by Rush Limbaugh to beleive that unions are bad and that only the wealthy deserve to have good pay and benefits and that they should go along with shooting themselves in the foot.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xerenthar]

39. Thank you... someone gets it.

[Skittles]

41. two people who don't get it

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[xerenthar]

43. Debate me on AIM, stalker.

[OneTwentyoNine]

50. Afraid to post your comments for all to see??

You seem to challange everyone to a private debate. Whats the point?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2861888&mesg_id=2864456&page=

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Javaman]

49. Freep alert

[xerenthar]

52. Incorrect.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skittles]

120. LOL "against the posting rules"

are your sure YOU understand the g.d. rules???

[ConservativeDemocrat]

146. She does.

Believe it or not, the Democratic Underground isn't the "Green" Underground.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Name removed]

246. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Paleocon]

60. You're both messed up!

If WalMart doesn't pay them enough the government should use tax dollars to supplement their incomes so they can make the same as you and me!

Yeah!!!

Supplement those that don't make enough and then tax those that make too much!

Then we'll all be equal and my work ethic will go right in the shitter!!!

Yeah!!!

Merry Christmas!!!

[MsTryska]

208. hmmm....

"If WalMart doesn't pay them enough the government should use tax dollars to supplement their incomes so they can make the same as you and me!"


this is exactly what Wal-mart councels it's employees.


if i recall correctly someplace in California is suing to get Walmart out of the State Employee Pension Plan, because essentially Walmart double-dips. they encourage their workers to get on medicaid and food stamps to make ends meet, and get money from the state in the form of investments.



No matter how you slice it, if you have to counsel your employees to go on government aid, you simply do not pay them enough - i don't care what type of job it might be. You as an employer shouldn't be hiring family men and women for that type of job. You should be hiring the school kids and elderly. At-Will employment works both ways.

[Name removed]

247. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[G_j]

42. so you think

someone who works full time should not be able to support themselves?
I guess you haven't been paying attention, but these are the types of jobs which even skilled workers are being forced to take. But even an "unskilled" worker should be able to live while working full time.
And it is a fact that the presence of Walmart tends to drive down salaries across the board. Take for example the recent fight over grocery worker's pay in California.
You seem to be expounding the sort of 'Darwinism' that is more commonly voiced by Republicans.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[G_j]

83. so a simple living wage is

starting at the top? You know like paying the rent and electric bill?
As I said, you are defending an approach more in line with the Republican party.

If you want to defend Walmart, fine. I perceive I am wasting my time in this exchange. If you really have done your homework on WM's policies and still feel they are defensible then maybe you are in the wrong place. In general progressives/liberals/Democrats stand up for the rights of working people.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nobody]

44. I had a high skill job, someone in India is doing it now

It costs us all when working people can't support themselves on their wages. It costs you, the taxpayer, when your taxes go to providing food stamps and section 8 housing for people who work 40 or more hours a week at one or two jobs. I don't oppose these social programs, I oppose the policies that make it necessary for more people to need them.

Every job requires skills. Some aren't skills you have to go to school to learn. But they are skills and they are worth something. Let's take a look.

Your cashier has to be trustworthy. They're handling money and that requires honesty and integrity. Keep in mind the people at the cash tills make VERY LITTLE MONEY and there's a pile of temptation in front of them for 8 hours every day. George Bush does not qualify. He lies to the American people numerous times and condoned Kenny Boy's gutting of the Enron employee's 401k plans.

Your cashier has to be cheerful in the face of belligerent customers. George Bush definitely does not qualify. He gets bent out of shape whenever someone disagrees with him. First Amendment Zones, anyone?

Your cashier has to be able to scan all those items quickly, accurately, and bag it all so that the bag doesn't rip open or get too heavy for you to carry. Then the cashier has to make change. Yes, the machine tells how much, but the cashier has to have the brains to figure out the best way to hand you 85 cents. Is that two quarters and three nickles? Nope. Try again. How about three quarters and a dime? Again, George Bush doesn't qualify. He'd be way too slow and certainly can't count.

Then your cashier has to stand in the same place for 8 hours a day minus breaks. That's more tiring than walking continuously for 8 hours. It also leads to back problems for our non-insured cashier. Can George Bush do this? Maybe. Got to give him some credit, I suppose.

Sometimes a cashier has to walk around and help customers. You have to be able to answer their questions and be able to know where everything is. This requires a good memory and reasonable skills with English or Spanish (we have a lot of Latinos/as here. Spanish helps. Can George Bush do this? No, he only speaks one language and he mangles that one to death. Not to mention, his memory isn't that good and he certainly hasn't been able to keep the good will of all the people who used to be on our side when two towers came crashing down.

And what about the customer who has a stroke in the middle of Aisle 3? This requires quick thinking and a cool head. George Bush would just sit there for 7 minutes looking like an idiot.

Jobs that are said to be low skill aren't really.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nobody]

119. And any adult worth their weight in rice should be able to afford

to eat their weight in rice.

You're not just paying for their skills, you're paying for their time. Just because a person is doing a job that isn't that glamorous, so what. By being able to afford the necessities, they are not stealing them from someone else.

Also keep in mind that some very mindless people have managed to skate by on life without being able to do that list of items. And yes, these are valuable skills that you know instantly if someone doesn't have them.

The way they were relisted makes them seem like they're not skills at all and you left off the most important part of working retail. Diplomacy. Answering questions, informing customers that store policy isn't going to let them return that item for a cash refund if purchased with a credit card. It takes diplomacy to get that across and keep the customer. It's more than your lackluster "being nice to people".

I still say George Bush is not qualified to work retail.

[OneTwentyoNine]

46. Ummm,somewhere near the $2,583.36 per hour the CEO gets??

http://www.forbes.com/static/execpay2004/LIRTWC3.html?passListId=12&passYear=2004&passListType=Person&uniqueId=TWC3&datatype=Person

Thats how much H.Lee Scott received over a five year period based on 40 hours per week. The Walmart empire doesn't run off the sweat and work of that fool,it runs off its employee's,which they LOVE to employ at poverty wages and keep there.

Oh wait,it you can stand the place long enough you might make $7-8 per hour in 7-8 YEARS. Does $300.00 per week sound like a livable income by say...2012??

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wankawanka]

73. not ten thousand times more difficult

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

87. And there's more CEOs that got there through nepotism

if you believe the Horatio Alger myth exists anymore, I want some of what you're smoking. :eyes:

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Meowser]

111. "tryin to get it"?

:eyes:

Doesn't seem like you get it at all!

[Name removed]

158. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[solinvictus]

211. I can agree with those sentiments...

From my own experiences, I've seen firsthand families pay for groceries with WIC vouchers or EBT cards only to leave the store and load said groceries into a new SUV or car. Now, at the same time, my wife and I were supporting our family on about $7/ hour each and driving my patched together 1985 Tercel Wagon.
Additionally, I've also seen the same thing with expensive clothes and tennis shoes in my daughters elementary school at the time. Luckily, we had a GAP outlet near us, so we could clothe her nicely for little money, sometimes as low as $3-5 for skirts, shirts, jean, and such. It's a matter of spending priority and, like you said, if there's no incentive to be thrifty, many people simply will not do so. A friend of ours had to take welfare food assistance many years ago and, while receiving help, she clipped as many coupons as possible to maximize her monthly benefit. In several of my workplaces, I've had people try to sell me food stamps for cash at a much reduced rate. Again, some view it as free money rather than needed assistance.

[Doremus]

253. I can read this sort of drek on any conservative board, I don't need to

read it on DU, a place where I come to get away from ignorance.

What you and tryn2getit are advocating is called 'survival of the fittest.' The law of the jungle, kill or be killed. A typical repug statement of this sort would be: "I work hard for my money and I don't want any of it going to lazy welfare queens."

So Wal-Mart is perfectly justified to pay sub-poverty-level wages because this is a free market and there is a steady supply of labor to take those jobs?

Hmmm. Yet in the next breath you also say that only certain people should work at Wal-Mart -- those who don't need a fulltime income and can subsist on sub-poverty-level wages.

Aside from the elitism your remarks belie, those are somewhat contradictory concepts, no?

The reality of it is this: Wally World should not have been allowed to multiply into the behemoth it's become and if we had a real FTC, not a rubber stamp agency masquerading as one, it would have been reined in by now.

That it hasn't, though, doesn't mean its monopoly is good for America. It is an 800-lb. gorilla that devastates local economies, encourages outsourcing of decent jobs, peddles garbage to the unwashed masses who have fewer shopping choices and, thanks to their new Wally World jobs (those replaced by their former higher-paid manufacturing jobs), fewer discretionary dollars to spend ... creating a vicious cycle that is not only dizzying but disastrous to America as we watch our manufacturing base evaporate, replaced with a GDP that consists of "consumerism," much of which is itself borrowed money.

Wally World is not only NOT good for America, it's the epitome of what's wrong with it. Your weak attempts to paint it in the patriotic colors of "Mom, apple pie and good old free enterprise" is befitting of Bushworld, not the real world.

[solinvictus]

268. Wal Mart

No, I have nothing to say in favor of Wally World and I believe that all levels of subsidies should end now. All I said was this: there are people who receive government assistance who have some screwed up priorities on spending their available money. That's it.

[G_j]

106. exactly

the 'myth' is that there is some sort of level playing field for everyone. This couldn't be more wrong.

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wuushew]

99. How about nepotism in politics?

did George W. Bush deserve to go to business school and go on to run several businesses into the ground? The only way true merit can be rewarded in a society is if all people are exposed to a common standard of education and testing. Free market education and cronyism does not achieve this. Also the concept of inheritance itself goes against meritocracy as you are receiving wealth for which a person has done NO work.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

101. Well-said

And I wonder how our visitor feels about public education, school vouchers, affirmative action, etc. Should be interesting to hear her response...

[Name removed]

164. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tryn2getit]

160. True merit will not always be rewarded...

...life doesn't work like that. There will always be those who have everything, and worked for nothing.

And there will be those who have everything and worked for it all.

That's just how life is. You can't spend your life worrying about rather or not this person or that person deserves what they have. There's nothing you can do about someone else's life.

You need to focus instead on your own path and what you need to do to get where you want to be.

[AG78]

107. If dynastic life is your thing

more power to you. Hopefully your kids and grandkids will have the type of power the Walton's do, and will continue to have, as they write legislation into law that guarantees them that power.

American business was supposed to be about competition. When you have multi-billion dollar family fortunes basically controlling the way the global economy works, you no longer have that competition.

I know things change over time. It may be an old saying, but it's a good one; the more things change, the more they stay the same.

You say that you don't understand how people with no job could complain about Wal-Mart coming to town on a white horse, providing them jobs. Slavery was, and sill is today, a job as well.

Without the labor(foreign and domestic), Wal-Mart cannot exist. If they have ultimate power over their workers, how is that progress?

[tryn2getit]

161. Slavery?

What does Walmart have to so with Slavery? Paying someone for the appropriate value of their job responsibilites is not slavery.

You stated: "Without the labor(foreign and domestic), Wal-Mart cannot exist. If they have ultimate power over their workers, how is that progress?"

The employer has always had power over the employee. Since the idea of paid work, it's been that way. If I am paying you to do a job, why would I also let you have the say in the aspects of the job? I pay you to do it my way. If you don't like my having the say over how you do the job, then you can go get a job elsewhere. Just like if I don't like the way you are doing the job, I can stop paying you and tell you I don't want you to work for me. If I hire a nanny, I as the employer, tell her what hours the job entails, what benefits it offers. You decide whether or not that's agreeable to you. If it is, you may accept the job. If it's not, you don't.

It's important to remember that job benefits are just that...benefits. They are not a guaranteed part of a job. When you apply for a job, you are given a list of the benefits. If you don't like those benefits, you are free to look for a job elsewhere...more power to you, if you think you can get better benefits.

[wuushew]

162. What are your feelings on socialism?

can the worker be exploited if labor owns the means of production?

[tryn2getit]

165. I'm not sure I understand your question...

...but I'll try to respond based on what I think you are asking. It seems to me that worker and labor are one in the same in your question. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

By means of production, do you mean if the laborer owns the tools and skills...can the laborer be exploited?

I would say yes, based on the value of their product. The greater the value of the product, the greater power the laborer has. The lesser the value, the better chance the laborer has to be "exploited".

The value of the laborer's product will depend on how much of that product is available, how many are ready-able-willing to provide it, and at what cost.

In other words, how anxious is the laborer to get the product sold? If the product is readily available through others, and others are willing to accept less control, the laborer must be more willing to allow his/herself to be exploited in order to provide incentive for purchase of his product instead of someone else's.

As an example: I have the skills and tools to polish widgets. There are others out there that have the same skills and tools.

If others are willing to polish widgets for 5 hours straight without a break, then the value of my polishing will be diminished if I require a break every 3 hours.

Again, I may not be understanding your question, but it seems to me that this is what you were asking.

[Desert Liberal]

254. It's not wrong BUT

They (Wal-Mart) are becoming richer and richer while the people who work for them are shown very little for their loyalty to the company. They are paid sub-standard wages and the benefits are laughable.
Wal-Mart and all the heirs not working to change the deplorable treatment of the employees are guilty of unfair business practices, at the very least.
Wal-Mart now is nothing like Wal-Mart before Sam Walton died. Did you even know that he never wanted to have the SuperCenters built? He paid his employees well and treated them fairly. He insisted on it. Wal-Mart was considered to be an astoundingly good place to work.
After Sam died, the kids got ahold of the SuperCenter plans (they had been tabled indefinitely by Sam Walton long before his death) and Wal-Mart started to change. I remember Wal-Mart being a small-town general store.
Now it's just a giant with unquenchable thirst.
I don't mind those kids getting their inheritance. Hell, I'd like to be able to leave a little something to my kids. But I do mind a corporation becoming a monopoly. I do mind when that corporation runs jobs out of my town and out of my country. I do mind when they stop playing fair.

[wankawanka]

75. i will debate you on aim im me at jspittman7

[wuushew]

97. No correlation between company perfomance and CEO pay

Academic literature is unanimous in finding that there is no correlation between pay and company performance. And while directors go to elaborate lengths to show how pay varies with performance, their only explanation of why the overall levels are so high is that everyone else does it -- an excuse you wouldn't accept from your 8-year-old.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/inequal/2003/0416sore.htm

google CEO pay + performance you will find thousands of links. Companies in Europe perform the same type of production that American companies do but you will find the average top pay only something like 50 times that of the lowest paid worker as opposed to the hundreds or thousands of times multiple of U.S. firms. You seem to to be trumpeting a freedom to fail and bootstrap mentality that prevades the right. The so called greatness of the American market system is leading to widespread wealth inequity and squalor. Things are not great in Amerika. More Unions, more regulation or more taxation are all needed to improve life for the have nots at the expense of the haves.

[HuskiesHowls]

109. Intersting tidbit about CEO salaries:

CEO-worker pay gap increasing
The CEO-worker pay gap was 281-1 in 2002, nearly seven times greater than the 1982 ratio of 42-1.
(Source: "Executive Excess." Institute for Policy Studies and United for a Fair Economy, 2003)
http://straighttalk.ourfuture.org/accountability/

I don't really think any CEO has THAT much more responsibility!!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

110. Plus they get that much more $$ and vacation time!

[KnowerOfLogic]

142. The people at the bottom *create* the profits that the CEO's

stock holders and other top management accumulate. The workers should be entitled to a more equitable share of the wealth that they helped to create. It doesn't matter what that person has been doing for the last 7-8 years; there will always be a *permanent* segment of americans living in poverty, corresponding precisely to the number of jobs that pay poverty wages. It doesn't matter if any one individual can go from the bottom to the top; america should be a country where working at any honest, necessary job and playing by the rules mean that you will be able to enjoy a decent standard of living. America should not be a country governed by a lottery-style economy, where a few people get filthy rich, and every one else is left holding the bag. And btw, *one person* can not live on minimum wage, let alone a family.

[OneTwentyoNine]

147. Uh...why NO!!

They have no more responsibility or difficult decisions than the average Walmart slave who wonders whether to buy food or go to the doctor this week with the $206.00 they gross for 40 hours.

Wait..you could be right. Picking the color and accent scheme for the new $20 MILLION DOLLAR Citation X can be an absolute BITCH!!

[tryn2getit]

166. Moot...

There is a vast difference between the following responsibilities:

CEO = Must decide whether or not to risk spending $1.5 million towards development of a potential new product

Versus...

Walmart worker = Must count out the right change for a $20.00, when purchase was $17.53.

The Walmart worker isn't paid to make decisions regarding their household budget. Therefore, deciding whether to spend household funds on food or a trip to the doctor is not a job responsibility.

Thus, your example moot.

[solinvictus]

212. CEO pay vs. actual performance..

The fact that a CEO is placed by a given board of directors has less to do with ability than social and business connections. For example, about 5-6 years ago, there was a WSJ article on Pizza Hut's parent company hiring the former CEO of McDonald's Hamburgers. The crux of the article was this: the former CEO's tenure saw years of shrinking market share, poor business/marketing decisions, and for the first time, individual restaurants losing money. Remember the McLean Deluxe, McD-LT, and Arch Deluxe? This was the man responsible. The WSJ questioned why another fast food company would hire this man after such poor performance with his former company and determined it was due solely to social connections to the board of directors.

As I've surveyed the issue over the past few years, I've yet to see valid empirical evidence that any of these CEOs are worth several hundred times the pay of their respective company's average worker. Even if their poor decisions run the company into the ground, they still leave with, on average, millions in severance and stock options. To give you an example, the former CEO of the disability firm I worked for was fired by the board of directors only after driving our stock from over $60/share to less than $7/share. He left with over $19 million in severance and the company STILL uses him as an outside consultant. CEO pay scales must be reformed and tied to the company's actual performance rather than social connections.

[OneTwentyoNine]

214. Yawn...your ass kissing for Walmart CEO is inspiring.....

"CEO = Must decide whether or not to risk spending $1.5 million towards development of a potential new product"

Bawhahah,NEW PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT?? They don't develop shit,they just buy all they can from China. The CEO doesn't make those buying decisions anyway,thats the job for district and store managers.

Oh I'm sure he makes a few tough decisions here and there but the company pretty much runs itself. The question is if the average Walmart worker received say $10.00 per hour to start would that catapult the company into receivership??

Fucking hardly,if they can afford $2500.00 per hour for the CEO then they could AT LEAST pay a LIVING WAGE to their workers who are really the BACKBONE of the system.

[tryn2getit]

238. I believe we were talking about...

CEOs in general, not just Walmart CEOs...

An NO company runs itself. It's daft to even suggest that.

If workers are being paid $10.00 hour for doing work that is valued at $10.00 an hour, that would be good for both worker and company. If they are being paid $10.00 an hour for doing $7.15 an hour's worth of work, that is bad for the company and would cause prices to go up.

People who do work that is worth a living wage should be paid living wage. People who are doing work that has a value of $7.15 an hour should be paid no more than $7.15 an hour.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

239. Those simplistic economic explanations don't apply to the new

global economy. That may be the case in small business, but the axioms no longer hold true in global business.

[tryn2getit]

241. What axioms do you feel hold true

...in global business that have replaced the one's I portray?

[missouri dem 2]

151. http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/retail/2004-11-24-walmart-heiress

College removes name of Wal-Mart heiress on arena
JEFFERSON CITY, Mo (AP) — The University of Missouri is removing the name of a 22-year-old Wal-Mart heiress from its brand-new sports arena, a week after she was accused of cheating her way through college.

Paige Laurie cuts a ribbon to open Paige Sports Arena on the University of Missouri campus.
By Jenna Isaacson, Columbia Daily Tribune via AP

Elizabeth Paige Laurie's parents have agreed to allow the school to rename the $75 million Paige Sports Arena, which was built with a donation from the Lauries and opened three weeks ago, the university said Tuesday.

The university board will vote Friday on the proposed new name, Mizzou Arena, said Remy Wagner, the assistant to the board's secretary

[wuushew]

47. How many more carpenters, plumbers and electricians do we need?

If their labor area was to be flooded by new workers would not the wages of their jobs fall as well? Also many skilled jobs require time and money to acquire the relevant certifications. Unless you guarantee that Emperor Bush would financially back these requirements I would not pontificate on what the working man should or should not do.

[tryn2getit]

74. We could certainly use plenty more...

I know that when I had to call a Plumber this summer, I had to wait over 24 hours for one to be able to get here, and even then, he charged me an "emergency" rate. I don't think there's a glut there.

If and when the job market for plumbers and other skilled workers begins to become saturated, that's the time to bring up your "what if" argument. Until then, those jobs are an option. Since such skilled jobs have been around for many, many years...without a glut, I doubt one's going to come up suddenly.

Most skilled tradesman are more than glad to take on apprentices who are willing to work their way up.

As for Bush, while many things are certainly his fault, the lack of any person's ambition and their refusal to put forth a little effort towards their own success can't be blamed on him...or anyone else other than the individual.

[Silverhair]

176. Lots of room in the economy for more plumbers.

Call a plumber and see how far out the appointment is that he gives you. That they are usually booked solid for several days shows that they have more work than they can handle. Therefore, there is lots of room for more plumbers.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

222. My friend's husband and my brother-in-law are both unemployed plumbers

:shrug:

Maybe there's a need for them where you live, but we probably don't have the building boom that you have in Texas.

[Silverhair]

223. I can only speak from experience there.

There is a strong tendency to assume that local conditions are universal. I must admit that since plumbers have waiting lists here, then they must have them everywhere.

If they want to move down here, there is lots of work for good plumbers. However, Texas is not a state with strong unions.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

228. There are a lot of tradespeople up here

the slow economy in my state has deifinitely hit them too.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

48. Walmart's employees suck off the state teat bec. Walmart pays shit

Walmart workers draw $86 million a year in aid, because they either aren't eligible for or can't afford the exorbitant health benes that Walmart offers. So your tax money is going directly into Walmart's coffers one way or another.

"In Congress, a report by Democratic staffers on the House Committee on Education and the Workforce looked at employee eligibility for assistance programs and found that a typical 200- employee Wal-Mart store could cost federal taxpayers $420,750 a year, or more than $2,000 per employee.

http://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/press/latimes_aug04_2.shtml

[China_cat]

55. Let's not forget the dead peasant's insurance

that WalMart takes out on its employees. Insures a worker making $15,000/yr for $75,000 with itself (the company) as beneficiary. If the employee drops dead (even AFTER they stop working there) the company collects on the the insurance. Nothing goes to the family. In fact, the family isn't even notified about the policy when it's bought.

Yes, even AFTER the employee no longer works there. They have someone run the list of employee SS numbers through the federal death index once a year to see if anyone who was ever a member of their 'family' has expired. If so, they make a claim on the policy.

[tryn2getit]

84. I've heard about this...

I'll be the first to admit it's a little on the morbid side...but many companies are doing it.

If I ran a company, I don't think I could do it, personally. Too much bad karma. :)

But if they choose to do so, that's up to them. It doesn't hurt anyone else, in any way that I can think of. I've yet to hear of any Walmart employees being pushed over a cliff so the company can collect their $15K.

[Solon]

112. When Wal*Mart Got caught doing that...

the worker's wife sued and won in court, not only the insurance money, but also a nice reward as well. This is a victimization of the family members of these workers, not only is it wrong, it should be illegal. Why the FUCK should any company get a DIME when one of their workers kick the bucket, what the hell is this, slavery compensation?!?! If you don't have a problem with that, why not tattoo their logo on your ass an claim to be their property.

[Meowser]

113. This insurance scam sounds like something the Nazis did to the Jews

it's that heinous!

[tryn2getit]

167. Who paid for it?

You asked: "Why the **** should any company get a DIME when one of their workers kick the bucket"

Because if the company paid for the policy, they should receive the claim funds. Why should she get insurance funds that neither she nor her husband paid on a policy for?

It's not slavery compensation. Being paid for work you do is not slavery. Being paid an amount that is proportionate for the value of your work, is not slavery. There is no slavery involved in a Walmart job.

As for the tatoo...I feel certain that there are people who would allow the company to tatoo their logo on their hind end if the price is right. Supply and demand make the market go 'round, you know. The great thing is, however, that no one is forced to do this...or any kind of job either.

[Solon]

202. Who gave them permission to put the policy out on you?

If you did, then that's fine, if you didn't, then that should be illegal. That is the point, if someone puts out a policy on you, even if they pay for it, and you die, they profit, not your family, and it is without your knowledge or permission, would you like it if I put a policy out on you?

[tryn2getit]

242. If permission is legally required...

...I feel certain that was taken care of. Perhaps by signing something upon being hired.

When someone puts a policy on you, it's a contract. The contract includes a beneficiary. There is no requirement that a beneficiary be family.

I doubt that Walmart's house counsel would agree on the company something so controversial without covering their hind ends legally.

[Solon]

245. Problem is that it is ILLEGAL....

Look at this link and see if you find it acceptable after reading it.

http://www.walmartwatch.com/info/internal.cfm?subsection_id=131&internal_id=350

[Name removed]

248. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OneTwentyoNine]

218. You agree that Walmart should be compensated for playing "Life lottery"?

YEAH!!! Seeing how Walmart has billions to play the Life Lottery game they should be well compensated when they "guess" correctly...right?

They have employee health insurance policy's that are so damn expensive that their OWN employee's can't afford to take then out yet Walmart has the money to spend on life insurance polices that benefits only the corporation,not the family of the deceased.

Every time I waver just a bit and think I might step foot in a Walmart all I have to do is read some more threads about those bastards. I haven't step foot inside in well over a year,and don't intend to.

[Name removed]

243. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wuushew]

244. If private health insurance is unattainable there is only one alternative

National health-care. Unfortunately the November election doomed the 40 million that currently have none.

[Name removed]

249. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wuushew]

250. Why are you at DU?

National Healthcare was a corner stone of the Kerry platform. Did you vote LP in the general election? Certaintly they opposed the GOP foreign policy approach.

[Solon]

256. You seem to have no idea what you are talking about...

HMO's and the Insurance industry has over 20 percent overhead costs, Medicare has 3%, where is the widespread fraud again? BTW: for your information, I have never heard of anyone dying in Canada because of a waiting list, unless it is for transplants, but then again we use that same list. You better back that up. BTW: Canada's system has an overhead cost of 5% I believe. So think about where all that money that you pay into the health care industry goes to, I'll give you a hint, into CEO and lesser manager's pockets, that's where. Not to doctors, or better treatment, but into the system that pays, the stock market, then again, what do you expect from a FOR PROFIT INDUSTRY, charity?

[Silverhair]

274. Free market doesn't work for health care.

I have been in agreement with you on you free market outlook on Wal-Mart. But in health care, it just doesn't work. The free market works best, but has three basic requirements. These requirements are general requirements. Any particular transaction may violate one or more, but the system will still work fine if the overwhelming majority of transactions meet the requirements. They are:

1. Neither seller or buyer or under duress. (Frequently not true in medical decisions. "Doc, It hurts bad.")

2. The buyer is reasonably will informed to make a purchasing decision. (Often not true in medicine. "Doc, What's wrong?")

3. The purchasing decision is made by the one who will write the check. (Again often not true. "I need you to get an MRI and some other tests. Your insurance will cover it.")

About a year ago I posted some threads about what I though needed to be done.

[tryn2getit]

77. Then folks who need more pay and...

...better healthcare need to expend some effort to make a better life for themselves. It's not up to the government to hand a decent living to anyone on a platter. It's up to each individual to do what is necessary to prepare themselves to earn as they need to.

Look, I admit that this is one issue where I sound like a conservative. The fact is that I'm a single mom. I've raised my daughter all on my own since she was one year old. My ex-husband is nowhere to be found and paid no child support because of that. My family had no extra money to help me, so I was on my own.

I have no college degree. I started as a secretary making minimum wage, but worked myself up to making a decent wage. I did it by taking initiative at my jobs, making sure I was at work on time, taking advantage of any opportunity to learn new skills that I could find, and working my butt off. Sure, I spent many a long night working on work projects at home after my daughter went to bed, and we ate a lot of beans, rice and tomato soup...but it was worth it. The nights with just a few hours of sleep were worth it. I drove a 10 year old car, had no cable TV, no cell phone, no pager. We did things at home for entertainment, rather than paying to go to movies. And I've done more shopping at thrift stores and Goodwill than I care to think about. But it was all worth it. I've been displaced 4 times in the past 8 years, but each time I saw it coming and had prepared myself with new skills and a little research, I found another job each time.

I now drive a late model car and own my own home. It's not Taj Mahal, but it's mine...and no one got me where I am but me. Because it was no one else's responsibility to get me here...it was mine.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

145. The problem is...

that while you pulled yourself up by your bootstraps, many extremely wealthy people use the power of government to get handouts they don't deserve. They got corporate welfare. And who paid for that? You did. We all did.

As far as WalMart is concerned, you are certainly right that people shouldn't ask for a decent living on a platter. If you act like an SOB, expect to be fired.

But that also applies to corporations. People here aren't saying they want to make shopping at WalMart illegal - they're saying why you shouldn't. They're making the same judgment I'm sure you've made a dozen times about stores and goods and fellow employees.

The truth is that WalMart is the Chinese poor's best friend. But many Americans are well within their rights to resent the destruction that company has wreaked on middle class jobs, and not shop there.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[tryn2getit]

168. I agree...they do...

There will always be hierarchy. There has always been those who have more tender, more power and more "stuff."

Unfortunately, corporate welfare is a fact of life also. Corporations provide what we need. Entities that provide what is needed will always have the power. And that's why corporations whose product is no longer needed due to changes in life styles, changes in technology and even changes in trends...die.

Heck, even in times of the Caveman, the fastest man typically had the best hunting skills and success in providing that much needed commodity...food. Thus, that man was the alpha male. He got the best cave, the best part of the woolly mammoth that was to be dinner, the best pick of the women. Because he had what was needed, thus he had the power.

I still don't understand how Walmart has affected middle class jobs. I guess I'm admitting I still need someone to explain how that is occuring. From what I see, Walmart helps the middle class because it provides affordable items to the middle class, thus helping them stretch their dollar farther.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

173. It may be a "fact of life", but it's still wrong

> Unfortunately, corporate welfare is a fact of life also.

Crime is a fact of life, as well. Does that doesn't mean we shouldn't do what we can to fight it?

Corporate Welfare is a form of legalized stealing that - if you count up the billions of dollars wasted on it annually - costs you far more than all other criminals in the country, combined. Nor is it necessary. Companies can live without it, and in fact, most do. But some don't - they've become quite adept at trading campaign cash for special no-bid contracts. And these come under criticism in the Democratic Underground, because it's usually Republicans that sell the laws (and tax dollars) of this country to the highest bidder.

As far as WalMart is concerned, it's pretty obvious that the corporation is one giant outlet for foreign goods, chiefly made in China. That might help some people "stretch their dollar farther", but that doesn't really help Americans much if they don't have a job that provides dollars, now does it? (And they don't because the job making those goods are now in China.)

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[China_cat]

54. Maybe they started out as entry level jobs

not meant to support a family but when WalMart is the only place left to work...

Slavery was abolished in the 1860's. WalMart is doing its best to bring it back.

We've got almost nothing left BUT WalMarts now. EIGHT OF THEM...EIGHT...in a 15 mile radius. FIVE of them supercenters. And a tax package to pay for their new roads and parking lots and traffic control. An extra 1/2 cent on every dollar I spend, no matter where I spend it, will be going to WalMart even if I don't.

[tryn2getit]

78. Then perhaps it's time to move...

...to where one can make a better living?

What did Walmart do to take away opportunities in other areas? The only thing Walmart displaces with it's low-skill, low-paying jobs...are low-skill, low-paying jobs with someone else.

Did Walmart in some way take away opportunites for education that were previously there?

Did Walmart in some way cause companies with high paying jobs to have to leave?

Before placing blame, you've got to put things in perspective. Think of cause and effect.

[China_cat]

114. I believe you're the one who needs to think of cause and effect.

WalMart, with their 'low prices' have driven family owned businesses out of business because they can't compete. We've lost chain grocery stores, who while not being exactly the best in the wage and benefit department were light years above what WM pays, throwing people out of work.

Their insistance on their suppliers cutting costs have caused otherwise lucrative companies to either outsource to China to be able to continue selling to WM or to close down because even with big sales like that, they were losing money...costing thousands of good paying manufacturing jobs.

No, the only thing WM displaces with its low-skill, low-paying jobs are NOT low-skill, low-paying jobs elsewhere. They ruin a community. And demand that that community use its public resources to support them.

And, its rather difficult to move to where there are better paying jobs when there is no such place to begin with, you are within 10 years of retirement age, have a family member with a serious chronic illness and are just trying to recover from a 2 year period with NO job (that took every bit of your savings and retirement money to survive through), on TWO jobs that combined only pay half of what you were making before and provide NO health insurance.

[tryn2getit]

169. I agree..

They have run family owned businesses out. But you're looking at one family versus hundreds of families that have comparable jobs at Walmart. One family versus thousands of families that have affordable items available for purchase at Walmart.

Businesses - even family owned businesses - have to change along with the demands of the market. If the chain grocery stores can't sustain with Walmart around, then they need to alter what they offer as a business or concede to defeat. Chain grocery stores don't offer anything better for the community than Walmart in regards to jobs...but Walmart does offer better prices to the community than the chain grocery.

As for manufacturing jobs being lost, I blame unions for that. Unions overinflated wages, and took all control of the cost to produce a product away from the manufacturer. $23.00 an hour is too much to pay for someone to stuff pillows. And while the rest of the non-unionized world was adapting to ever-increasing healthcare costs coming out of their paychecks, unionized workers were not. For example, while the rest of us in the non-unionized world were hearing that our health care premiums we pay for ourselves were going up 25%, Kroger workers were threatening a strike because for the first time, their healthcare premiums weren't going to be paid totally by the company. While non-unionized employees were being told they were going to have to take a pay-cut in order for their employer to survive a bad economy, unionized workers were threatening to strike because they weren't getting the 8% raises they wanted.

The cost of the unionized manufacturing worker's labor was pushed past the value of that labor. Simultaneously, affordable labor was available elsewhere. Unions priced manufacturing workers right out of their jobs.

Ugly or not, the sole purpose of a business is to earn as big a profit as possible. That's the sole incentive for a business's existance.

Moving is a drastic change, certainly. When I moved to another state, I was a single mom moving myself and my child to a state where there was no family support, where we knew no one. But I had to because the job market where we lived was stagnant. I understand that doing so when you are 10 years from retirement isn't easy, I myself am in my 40s and the competition is stiff.

I still don't see how Walmart ruins a community, though. It may change the landscape, but that's only sentiment.

[Desert Liberal]

260. Yes, they took away plenty of opportunities.

When manufacturing companies move out of the States to provide a product more cheaply, THAT takes away jobs and opportunities. When Wal-Mart moves in and virtually every small business in a town is driven under, THAT takes away opportunities. When all the other wages in the area fall because Wal-Mart is driving small businesses to provide cheaper product, THAT takes away opportunities.
Manufacturing jobs are, on the whole, better paying jobs than service jobs. When Wal-Mart decides not to stock a fan (for instance) that contains an American-made G.E. motor because the cost to them is $0.05 more per unit, the effects are that G.E. sells less motors, more factories are moved out of the States to make a bit more profit for all the big-wigs involved and screws all those people who had manufacturing jobs paying $15-$18 per hour (around here, that's a king's ransom). THOSE people (skilled workers in their own right; trust me, it takes a lot of skill to build and shove 400-500 motors down a line every 8 hours) end up working for Wal-Mart making less than half their old salary.
Manufacturing is moving offshore due to Wal-Mart being able to set their own prices on goods they buy. They can set their own prices because of their HUGE share of the market. This is not a good system. This is not a good idea.
Wal-Mart is becoming a monopoly. Diversity is in severe danger in the marketplace.
I've seen these things happen. I've watched my family driven out of good-paying jobs with less than a fare-thee-well for years of service. My grandpa was even offered a position with Zenith (he was there 27 years with perfect attendance) after they moved to Mexico. At one-third his pay rate when the company decided to move.
My ex and I both lost our jobs with G.E. when part of that company moved to wherever the hell they went. Another manufacturing job? Nope. They had all moved away from here for cheaper labor. I ended up working for $6.24 an hour for...Wal-Mart. Less than half my salary building motors for G.E.
OK, so it's not just Wal-Mart that is the problem. But they are a HUGE part of it. And if you feed them your money, then you are part of the problem too.

[Arkansas Gazette]

133. I had an entry-level Wal-Mart job once.

I unloaded trucks, stocked shelves and did some fill-in cashier duty. Even though we worked late at night, a supervisor with a stopwatch clocked us on the time it took us to stock however many cases of stuff we had to put on the shelves. Just like the obsolete time and motion studies of so-called "scientific management." Sometimes I could hear the district manager yelling at the store manager from the office. I decided that kind of "corporate culture" wasn't for me. Sam Walton must be turning 9,000 RPM in his grave right about now.

[tryn2getit]

170. Some jobs have very strict requirements that must be met...

One division of our company has a call center. Those folks must adhere to specific production expectations such as the average length of their calls, how long it takes them to answer, how many calls they take, and how much production time they spend off the phone for unscheduled restroom breaks, etc.

Some jobs you have to decide if you are suited for. Some folks do fine under those tight restrictions...some don't. If it doesn't suit you, then you find another job.

I know that Walmart has some issues, but that's a reflection of the many thousands of different managers. The larger a company is, the less likely management is to reflect the management style of the corporation itself. I agree that Walmart has gotten to the size where it, as a corporation, needs to better police their management. They are no longer of a size where they can hope that memos on how things should be done will be followed. Because they are so big, the store managers are very distant from the core company, so they need to create a team of management auditors.

I worked at a fast food chain years ago when I was in high school. The manager was an absolute jerk. He was lecherous, lazy and would get his jollies humilating employees. I asked for a transfer to another store of the chain and got it. It was a total difference. The manager at this store was encouraging and got on the register himself during peak hours. If things were busy and an employee wasn't watching the clock for their break time, he made sure he sent them to break himself. Both stores were the same chain, but under different managers. The lecherous jerk was eventually fired and they replaced him with a manager whose style was more in line with the company's intent.

[solinvictus]

219. Chattanooga, TN

That's the case in Chattanooga: there are four WalMart Supercenters within a 10 mile radius and, if their plans go through, there will be an additional four to five built over the next two years. The newest one was built in a suburban area with the assistance of government largesse; such as road construction, tax breaks, and extra police protection in the immediate area. The net affect? Three local businesses closed within a quarter of it's opening including a sporting goods store, a jeweler, and another mom & pop retailer. In Chattanooga, WalMart is gunning for the grocery chains Food Lion and Bi-Lo to obtain a virtual monopoly on the market. They've succeeded in closing several Food Lion stores and the new Supercenters are all near existing and successful Bi-Lo locations. People had better wake up and realize that the few cents they save cost them (and their neighbors) more in the long run.

[tsuki]

76. Wrong.

"Many of Walmart's products are no different that what you find at Costco, etc. They are name brand, same as anywhere else. Some are from China, yes...but most are not."

Most manufacturers have the idea that their are two markets in the US and they can sell one product to one market, and an upgrade version of that product to a specialty store.

Unfortunately, it is not true. I recently dropped a line for that very reason.

I had to buy the product with metal parts, a metal pop-up and chromed metal. The box stores undercut me and sell the same product, same brand name, same product number (bar code is different.) Forgot to add their product is plastic parts.

Could I compete selling the same sh*tty product? You betcha. My upgrade product sold for $15.00 more. (If you buy a $100. product, what is $15.00 more for something that will last longer.)

The result is the manufacturer is now in the squeeze having lost his traditional market. Over 60% of his trade is BigBox, with more of his traditional customers bailing out on him monthly.

Manufacturers are beginning to understand that they cannot split the market, make less on the big boxes and pick up the losses on traditional markets. I now have lines that will not BigBox.

[tryn2getit]

79. Again...adaptability is the word.

Everyone involved in the market has to always be ready to spin on a dime. Trends change, competition changes. It's always been like that, now is no different. With technology moving as fast as it is now, this flexibility is more important than ever.

Again, I use the Blacksmith analogy. Smithing was a respectable skill and trade, and highly in demand. But with the invention of automobiles, people didn't rely on horses and carriages as they used to, so that job market tanked. People had to stop relying on that particular trade as a potential career, and think in other directions. And Smiths had to change their products or lose their market.

[tsuki]

86. You just don't get it. You spend more when you spend cheap. You are

not getting the same product. The boxes, the product numbers, the names are the same, but you are getting a dumbed down product. It fails and you re-buy. That is the Walmart, BigBox strategy. Buy Cheap, Buy Often.

[tryn2getit]

91. Which some have to do...

Surely you've been in a situation in your life where the immediate is the concern.

Some folks have to buy lesser quality, because it's all they can afford at the time.

While it would be great if we could all do what's best in the long run, often that's not feasible.

For example, we hear how much more sense it makes to buy a better built car. Sure, it costs more, but it will last longer. But those who can't afford the higher cost, have to buy a car that will do them for now.

Some folks live incrementally. They don't have the income to build a great savings account to pay higher prices for better quality by writing one fat check. Their money comes paycheck to paycheck. Thus, buy cheap - buy often, is what works for them. They can buy cheaper more often...but putting all the money upfront in one fell swoop is not an option for them. Thus, these products are providing what they need.

[tsuki]

115. You are correct. I have never been in that situation. Because I

am not in need of instant gradification. I saved for 10 years to buy the sofa I wanted. We sat on big pillows for a long time. Everything I have is the same. Regarding clothes, last week I picked up two pair of new jeans at a yard sale for $2.00. The best kept secret in the world, as far as I can see, is upscale neighborhood yard sales. Women buy clothes too small for them and never take them back to the store. When they feel the need to consume again, they have yard sales where they sell things cheap.

The problem with planning is waiting. And Walmart is there to take advantage of every Clampett that wants to be a Carrington.

[tryn2getit]

171. And there's a reason we buy small and keep it...

Because we have plans for that diet that will allow us to fit those clothes. We just know we'll get around to it. It's just a matter of time.

After next weekend's party, that's when I'll start the diet...doesn't make sense to start it before....they'll be serving mousse.

Okay...we're human...it's mother nature that causes us to put on fat during the winter. In the spring, we'll start the diet...

Spring brings graduation cook-outs and end-of-school cupcake parties...so early summer would be better.

It's so hard to diet when on summer vacation at the beach...all that eating out.

Okay..fall is here...Wait!...don't we have Thanksgiving in the fall?...

:) :) :)

[Solon]

117. You seem to be misinformed...

I'll be polite for once, because I don't think you realize this, but...Wal*Mart does NOT have lower prices. A shock isn't it? I should know, I worked there, and let me tell you a little about their tactics. They will put the CHEAPEST items in the store for a certain class, like housewares or what not and put them in the most visible places in the store. This is the hook, to get you into that department, where you will then find the item you really want, like another brand of the same item that is on the endcap at the end of the aisle. The main difference between the items is this, the one you buy is usually much more expensive than the one on the endcap, even though Wal*Mart paid the exact same wholesale price on it, because, more likely than not, they were both made in China.

A typical retailer has a profit margin, or I should say, markup, of around 15 to 20 percent, Wal*Mart on the other hand, has margins of 80+ percent, quite a bit of difference there, isn't it? To give another example, I worked in L+G and had to do a markup on some lawn chairs that were $17.95, so I took out the Telxon and scanned the bar code. It tells you all kinds of things, like how many of that product are in the store, sales history by hour, etc. Another thing, that is on the first screen is the Wholesale price and total markup. I was told to raise the price up to $19.95, but you want to know how much the lawn chair actually cost Wal*Mart to get? It was $1.99, that was it, 2 freaking dollars, and they were selling it for 10 times that, so I ask you, are you really saving at Wal*Mart, or did you buy into a scam?

[tryn2getit]

172. I'm not a brand buyer...

I DO buy the cheapest stuff. If I can afford something better, say I got a gift card for my birthday, I'll go for the higher-priced stuff sitting on the shelf next to it. But typically, I do buy the lower priced one. I don't need an iron that plays Yankee Doodle, I just need one to get the wrinkles out.

Anyone who doesn't know how to buy the least expensive one, despite the more expensive one sitting beside it...needs a class on household budgeting.

Mark ups take care of themselves. Doesn't matter how much the mark up is. As long as folks are willing to pay the marked up price, all is well. If it's marked up so high people won't buy it, then it will be marked down. Look at what Walmart experienced pre-holiday. They took a chance and didn't "mark stuff down", and folks were't buying. So right before the holiday, they marked stuff down...and folks began buying. Walmart was packed when I went the Saturday before Christmas.

How much Walmart pays for the stereo I bought my daughter for Christmas compared to how much they mark it up is moot to me. What matters is that I got it for $8.00 less than I saw being charged for the exact same stereo at Mom and Pop's TV and Appliance store. The consumer is driven by what they have to pay to get the product they want...not how much money the various stores are making off of it.

[durablend]

175. When Mom and Pop's TV and Appliance is gone...

Smiley Mart will gladly jack the price up another 20 bucks, and if that was the only competition around, you'll be none the wiser.

[Silverhair]

180. There will always be competition to WM.

Much shopping can be done online now so that too is competition. And most people live in or very near a major metro area that will always have other stores. Although I am in a rural community, I am less than 30 minutes from Dallas, TX. WM can't run all the stores in Dallas out of business.

Recently, I got a great deal on a bicycle at WM at fantastic savings, but for the accessories I wanted, WM didn't have those. So I went online, found some bicycle shops, called around, selected one, and went over to pick up the things I wanted. I couldn't have afforded the same bicycle at the specialty place.

[Solon]

189. Do you actually think that Wal*Mart is concerned about online stores?

As competition? Please, that is a weak argument if I ever heard of one, the problem is that Wal*Mart is too damn big, and online stores are way too small. Unlike the nearest Mom and Pop's or the nearest Kmart, online stores aren't nearly as visible. I would bet that maybe one in 10 people in any given area actually shop online, that's no threat to Wal*Mart.

[Silverhair]

197. Didn't say it was a threat. In fact, WM is online too.

My point is that there is ALWAYS competition, and there is. Whether one wants to avail themselves of it is a different question.

Remember, WM has not always existed. There was a time when they had only one store in Arkansas, and they were going up against the giants of that time - Sears, J C Penny, etc. And there was a time when Sears was just a guy with an idea.

Same logic holds. Markets are not stable. Today's giant is tommorrow's has been. Somebody will come along with a better idea that gives people more stuff for the money.

[Doremus]

255. Look out for that 'affordable' bicycle.

Wal-Mart (and the vendor) made it affordable by making it -differently- from the more expensive model.

Differently how? By replacing expensive metal parts with plastic, removing nice but unnecessary parts and otherwise cutting corners in any way conceivable.

You may think you got a bargain, but you really bought a piece of crap.

We found that out the hard way a couple of years ago when we bought a lawnmower. MTD, a good brand. EXCEPT it lasted exactly one season. It had been "Wal-Mart-ized" with plastic parts in the carburetor.

Most expensive lawn mower we ever bought. Hope you have better luck with your bicycle.

[Silverhair]

179. Wal-Mart DOES have much lower prices.

I wrote down the prices of stuff that we normally buy (groceries) and compared them to other stores, (Also chains. Mom & Pop grocery stores died 40 years ago.) WM averages 20% cheaper for the same stuff.

A few months ago I needed a monitor for an additional workstation that I was putting in my office. Because of space limitations, I could not put in a CRT monitor and needed an LCD monitor. I comparison shopped on the internet and WM was about $100 cheaper than anybody else. The monitor is working fine, and I saved money.

If that doesn't fit somebodies politics - that's tough. I am acting in my own economic self interest. I do get to do that.

[Solon]

187. Not politics, experience...

I worked there, I did the pricing, ordering and all the other things, I know how they operate.

[Silverhair]

190. And I wrote down and compared prices.

They average 20% lower than the competition on groceries. Say what you want to, but when I look with my own eyes, and see a 20% price difference for the same item, I must go with what I see. And I see lower prices.

Although not on everything. For clothing, I buy online from Haband.com. Electronics I shop online, and WM usually has the lowest if it is a common item, otherwise I go to Fry's. Prescription drugs I go to a local Mom & Pop pharmacy - not out of politics - but because I get the best value there.

[Solon]

191. OK, where is the contradiction...

First off you said Groceries in the original post, with an average of 20% difference, well I wouldn't know jack about that because we have no supercenters around here, only junk food in our stores. Then you list several depts where I know for a fact there is almost no price difference, and what you say is true. The same is also true in every other department as well, but not when the brand in question is Wal*Marts own, like "Sam's Choice" or another crappy product of that name.

[Silverhair]

194. Most of my WM shopping is groceries. In the other depts

it varies. Most people around here try to maintain that WM never has lower prices, and that simply isn't true. And they try to maintain that there is a difference in the product - but a can of Campbells is a can of Campbells. And the other grocery stores are all parts of chains too.

I will readily admit that if a WM did not have a grocery store in it, I probably would not bother.

[Solon]

203. Never claimed that WM never has lower prices...

its on average that they don't, I don't know about supercenters that much, but in my area they started about 4 years ago to put in milk and frozen foods. The funny thing is that a gallon of Pevely Milk 2% there is $3.05 whereas at the regional stores, like Schunks, Dierberg's, or Shop n' Save, all union shops, its around $2.50. The nearest supercenter is about 30 miles away and I know of no one in there right mind that would even make that drive to not save money. BTW: Just as a side note, I tell people that for there own safety to NOT buy any expirable foods at our local Wal*Mart because of the problems they countinue to have with faulty refridgeration units, and of course the fact they have NONE in the back warehouse. I'm sure its better at a supercenter, but our stores are simply not equipped to deal with that kind of stuff.

[Silverhair]

207. No problems down here. And the prices here ARE

cheaper than the competition. Like I keep saying. I wrote down the prices and looked around.

The one down here are designed as supercenters from the ground up.

[Solon]

210. I live one state away from Bentonville...

we have had Wal*Mart stores for probably 20 years, before the Supercenter was even thought of. As far as supercenters go, enjoy it while it lasts, because there is one thing I do know, Wal*Mart sells groceries at a loss many times, just like everything else, when competition is around. As soon as the other grocery stores are gone in your area, expect prices to rise to reflect that reality, that is a given, it already happened in my area since Kmart left, and Venture, our local Dept. store went bankrupt, just a fair warning as to what is going to happen, if you think the prices at the grocery stores around there are expensive, wait until they are gone. Where is the economic incentive for Wal*Mart to keep the prices it has now when they are gone?

[Silverhair]

215. In Dallas??? WM is going to take over Dallas, TX????

There will always be competition to WM in Dallas. Besides, all the other grocery stores are big chains too. There haven't been Mom & Pop grocery stores in Texas for decades.

[Solon]

217. Why will that assumption hold true...

As wages get depressed, because of Wal*Mart, people will percieve them as the ONLY PLACE TO GO(tm), at that point, yes they can cause others to leave or go bankrupt in the area. The assumption that there will always be competition can only hold true if anti-trust laws are enforced, and as far as I can tell, they aren't enforced enough. So yes, eventually, this could happen, even in Dallas.

[tryn2getit]

233. And that's how the market works...

When/if Walmart becomes the only supplier of certain goods, and if they raise their prices, then an opportunity opens up for a grocery chain to come back in with lower prices.

It's important to remember that prices will never go higher than people are willing to pay. They will always find somewhere with lower prices because there is nothing to stop someone from opening up to charge lower prices.

[Solon]

261. Naive at best...

It hasn't happened in any of the areas Wal*Mart has a lock on now, why would it suddenly change now. Besides that, undercutting prices is illegal in most states, including mine, though its tough as hell to prove.

[Desert Liberal]

278. Solon?

I am also one state away from Bentonville. I remember Venture too. Kmart is still around and trying desperately to compete with the Wal-Marts which have become a veritable infestation around here.
Guess I'm just trying to see where you are? I am in Missouri, southwest part and it's hard to find like-minded people to go have coffee and discuss politics (or much of anything really. Brains? Hellooooooooo? I see the lights but NO ONE is home!). I've alienated a lot of people I used to hang out with simply because I don't think * is god or any incarnation thereof.}( But it sure is fun to watch 'em squirm when I point out the flaws in their *loving logic.
Anyway, there are 49% of us around here somewhere that feel somewhat the same as I do. It's just hard to find them.
Besides, boycotting Wal-Mart has made me none too popular in Redneck-Wal-Mart heaven. :evilgrin:

[Solon]

282. St. Charles Co here...

You should have seen what happened to the O'Fallon Corporate Headquarters, totally gutted, a LOT of people lost their jobs. We don't have Kmarts around here anymore, the last one closed up about a year ago, they took over the Venture building around here. That's near the City of St. Charles I live about a mile from the limits. Where are you in southwest Missouri, Springfield, Ozark, somewhere thereabouts? I have friends down there, supposed to visit this coming week in fact for the Holidays.

[Silverhair]

225. Here is a price comparison:

Between the earlier posting and now I had to run an errend so I checked a price.

I have been replacing the incadecent bulbs in my house with the energy saving flourscent bulbs. They use about one fourth the electricty and last for years. The bulbs I have compared are made by GE, and are the same bulbs at both WM and at ACE.

75 watt equilevent light output bulb. Uses about 20 watts of power. (Slightly more than one fourth) Pack of two bulbs.

ACE: $14.99
WM $ 8.84

Savings $6.15 per pack of bulbs.

So my point is that the prices are often strongly different for the same product. And if the product is the same, the prices are in my economic interest.

[Solon]

263. I have another question for you...

If Wal*Mart advertised how much they cost you in subsidizing their employees through food stamps and welfare, in the tax breaks they get on the property they built on, and on how much the roads, signs, extra police and other things, would you still shop there, or is it that you don't wan't a tax break?

ON EDIT: Yet Another Question, do you mind supporting a company that routinely breaks the law to save you 6 bucks?

[Silverhair]

273. A business is NOT a charity.

You didn't use those exact words in your other thread. If WM didn't exist, the system would create something exactly like it. Since we ARE in the system that we are in, I take care of my own economic interests first. Nobody else is going to do that for me. Don't bother trying to make me feel guilty. It won't work.

If somebody is only being paid minimum wage then they need to learn some better job skills. Low wage jobs are for people with poor skills. My father worked for minimum wage for the entire time I was growing up. Back then I used to blame Mr. L for not paying more. Now I blame Dad. When he came in from work, he flopped down and did nothing. NOTHING!!!!!! He could have studied to learn to do something. He could have found a tradesman to work under to learn the trade. But he had no iniative. I didn't get to live with indoor plumbing until I joined the Army at 17. I was amazed when the barracks were heated at night. At home the fire died during the night and had to be restarted in the morning. Bedrooms were never heated at all.

So if you put WM out of business, would high paying jobs magically open up for those WM workers. No, it wouldn't.

And contrary to popular belief around here - Low prices do help poor people.

[Solon]

276. "Low wage jobs are for people with poor skills."

I call bullshit on that, when I was being payed a little over 10 grand a year as a programmer, trying to save for college, till that job got shipped out. Poor skills? You have no idea what you are talking about, nor would you. Besides, Wal*Mart and other low wage workers don't shop there, they shop at Goodwill, or the Salvation Army, if they even have that option. You think all people that are poor choose to be poor? Why the FUCK are you on this board then?

BTW: You haven't answered my other quesion, should Wal*Mart break laws to save you a couple of bucks? Also, I condemn the entire corporate culture for its predatory practices, but Wal*Mart is still the worst offender, just not entirely unique.

[durablend]

192. Funny...the stuff we usually buy cost MORE at Smiley Mart

Anywhere from a couple of cents to a couple of dollars. Once in awhile, something is cheaper but certainly not enough to make up for the gas I have to waste driving over there.

To easy his own, I guess...

[Silverhair]

178. I have not had problems with WM product quality.

Because I want the financial savings, I shop at WM for most of my needs. I like not having to spend as much money for the same thing. I have not had a problem with things being of poor quality.

And depending on what I am buying, I may not want it to last forever. After all, I would not still be using the first 286 computer that I bought in 1988, even if it was still perfectly good, and I certainly would not be using the dot matrix printer that I had at the time. Nor would I use the personal photocopier that I had in 88.

My Kodak digital camera is the same quality as the same model sold in an upscale store. Why should I pay more?

[Solon]

196. Ever bought furniture at Wal*Mart?

Particle wood sucks, by and large, and decays and falls apart rather easily, and that is all that is availuable at Wal*Mart. Second off, you are comparing an item such as a PC, which does have a short life span INDUSTRY WIDE, that's like saying that the meat you buy at Wal*Mart you wouldn't expect to last more than 2 weeks anyways, so there is no lesser quality stuff there, that's ridiculous, because no matter where you by meat, it will go bad in a really short time, and that has NOTHING to do with where it is bought.

[Silverhair]

198. Some furniture, yes. Mostly I get furniture at a local

thrift shop. I get super value and the proceeds go to a homeless shelter. I got an almost new sleeper sofa for about $50, and a national good quality brand at that.

It depends upon what I want the furniture to do for me.

Like almost everything else in life - it depends. My point is that buying at WM is often in my economic interests.

People here like to claim that it is always a bad choice, and that just isn't true.

[Trekologer]

102. "How much do you feel entry-level workers should pay?"

That is a good question. What is entry-level work worth?

I work for a unionized supermarket cooperative chain in New Jersey. Members of the cooperative range from single store "mom and pop" types to larger multi-store (> 15) companies, all operating under the same store name and all under the same collective-baraganing agreement. This market is probablly the most competitive in the country and Wal-Mart hasn't had a hold on the area (yet--they are moving in very agressively). But guess what? We not only pay more than Wal-Mart does but we offer full PAID health insurance to part time employees after they work for the company for 30 months, full time employees receive health insurance from day 1. What does Wal-Mart offer? Their employees, once qualified, can elect to join the insurance plan but they have to pay for themselves. Wal-Mart contributes nothing.

The problem with Wal-Mart is that when they drive their local competition out of business, there are no other jobs that pay more. And then Wal-Mart raises their prices. While there are some who takes these entry level jobs just to make some extra money on the side, there are quite a few (probablly a lot more than you think) who hold these jobs and are trying to support their family for a multitude of reasons (certainly including that being the only job they can find).

What do I think that entry level work is worth? I think that, regardless of the position, a person working 40 hours a week (a full time job) should be earning a livable wage which is at the very least at what is considered the poverty level.

By the way, Sam Walton would probablly be spinning in his grave if he knew what his company was like today.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

104. Welcome to DU! Great post!

:toast:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

105. Welcome to DU! Great post!

:toast:

[KnowerOfLogic]

141. The wage structure itself is the problem; when 50%+ of American

jobs are 'entry-level,' low skill jobs that pay around minimum wage, then you are *always* going to have 50% of americans living in poverty, regardless of whether any one individual, such as Sam Walton, can go from the bottom to being a billionaire. I'm not sure exactly what the numbers are, but the distribution of wages across the entire economic spectum is the real issue, not whether any individual job is worth more than 5.15/hr. If america is going to be a country that has primarily low-skill jobs, and there are no unions, living wage laws, etc., then we are going to be a country with widespread poverty. And for the record, a *single* person cannot live on minimum wage, let alone a family. Bottom line is this: corporate profits in america are WAY up, while real wages for workers are down. It is the people at the bottom, such as shelf stockers, check-out people, etc, who *create* those corporate profits, and they should be distibuted more equitably. People in the United States of America should not be working 40 hrs. a week and still living in poverty.

[ChrisNYC]

257. Do you really believe in this utopia?

The real world isn't an efficient market, especially in a local economy. Wal Mart comes in, puts everyone else out of business, and the only jobs available for hundreds of people are at Wal Mart at whatever wages Wal Mart wants to pay. Your lame arguments remind me of those in support of 19th century monopolies. And if you are so confused by the idea of a living wage, look at Costco -- they manage to pay people decent salaries for the same work. Furthermore, Wal Mart reguarly makes people work off the clock, refuses to pay overtime, and limits hours to prevent people from getting benefits. But hell, if someone doesn't want to work 50 hours for 30 hours of pay, they should just get an MBA I guess. Brilliant contributions to this dicussion on your part.

[G_j]

51. Red Flag:

Walmart apologists in this thread & others wasting our time...

[tryn2getit]

80. Another person who believes...

...he/she who doesn't think exactly like me, doesn't deserve to be listened to.

What a shame.

[G_j]

88. FYI, I don't expect people to think exactly like me.

thanks

[tryn2getit]

90. Then why do you feel I'm "wasting" your time?

[G_j]

95. because

it is one thing to not think "exactly the same", it is another to keep putting forth a philosophy that would be more at home with Reaganomics and survival of the fittest, trickle-down Republican policies. Everyone deserves a living wage for an honest day's work.

[tryn2getit]

235. What would you have me do...

...put forth your philosophy when it's not what I believe?

I agree everyone deserves a living wage...as long as the value of their labor warrants a living wage.

If the value of their work, however, is not appropriate for living wage pay, then it's simply not a job to have if you are looking for enough to live on. People can't be paid more than their work is worth.

There will always be low wage jobs, and their are portions of society that those jobs are approrpriate for. And there are portions of society, such as those looking for a job to support themselves and their families, that they aren't appropriate for.

There are plenty of good jobs out there that will provide a living wage. But they take some effort to get...and they take effort to keep. It all depends on how much effort one is willing to expend. You get your effort's worth..

[wuushew]

240. No one is guaranteed a job in our economy

there is nothing an American can do that a Chinese or Indian can't do for less. The remaining service jobs do not exist in quantities sufficient to prevent large scale unemployment. Moving to where there is work requires overcoming the numerous transaction costs that in simple economic supply and demand model do not exist. Thanks to Clinton welfare benefits are capped and if current trends under Bush continue what little of our social safety net will disappear.

Nixon had a good idea with his negative income tax, that no doubt you would find abhorrent. However guaranteed income unlike uncertain employment would go a long way to preventing people from falling into the cracks of our capitalistic system. In such a system people would always seek addition income from work as long as their marginal utility for money is positive.

[Nobody]

277. Question for you

About the worth of work and why some people who work 40+ houra a week don't deserve to be able to support themselves.

A person's time is also worth something. Suppose the following hypothetical situation. (Actually in my part of the US it's entirely possible)

Assume the following: You are a supervisor of four data entry clerks. They make $8 dollars an hour and you make $11 an hour. Also assume you live 5 minutes away. Last night it snowed just north of you and it got deep. You made it in just fine, being only 5 minutes away.

You get to work and find the lights off and no one else around. You have a blinking light on your answering machine and you get the following messages, the gist of which are...

Employee A has the flu and can't come in.

Employee B lives north and is trying to shovel out of 15 inches of snow. Hopes to be in later, but don't count on it if the plows don't show up soon.

Employee C: Asked for the day off and isn't going to be there.

Employee D: Got rearended by some bozo who doesn't know how to drive in the snow. At the shop waiting to find out how bad the damage is. Car isn't drivable.

Upshot is, you are at work and have no one to supervise. What happens next?

Option 1: You sit there and surf the web all day getting paid your supervisory wages.

Option 2: You pick up some of the data editing that one of the people who called in was in the middle of, finish it, and do data entry for the rest of the day. You get paid your supervisory wages.

Option 3: You take the rest of the day off, taking ETO for the hours you don't work at your supervisory wage.

Option 4: See Option 1 but you don't get paid a dime. Not working, after all.

Option 5: See option 2 but you get paid the same as the data entry people, after all the work you are doing is only worth what they are getting paid.

Option 6: See option 3 but you put down ETO for the entire day since prior to going home you did squat.

Options 4-6: I'll be generous and say that you did supervisory stuff (getting your messages) for the first hour of being there. This is despite the fact that any one of the data entry clerks have access to the shared voice mail system and have gotten messages for you before.

My guess is that you'll do what I would. Stay there and work on data entry getting paid your full wage.

I would hope that it's illegal to drop a person's wages like that, but I've known companies that ask for volunteers to assist in a swamped department and then pay the prevailing wage of that department if and only if it is less. It never went the other way. Someone from that department helping out yours would still be paid the lower wage of that other department.

Ignoring what would happen in the real world, according to your view of ideal economics, which of the various options outlined above should happen?

[Hippo_Tron]

53. I drop a few bucks at Walmart every now and then because...

I don't really have much of another option. The only other option would be to go to a drugstore like Walgreens which is just another giant corporation, and stuff there is more expensive.

Wal-Mart workers need to unionize and the government needs to require American corporations to have decent working conditions for their cheap overseas laborers.

Now, my dad on the other hand might need some work. He's a solid democratic voter but he shops at Wal-Mart at almost every opportunity he gets. I think it has something to do with the fact that although he doesn't have a problem spending money, he likes to save it on certain things if he can.

[Starlight]

100. You have better options available.

Even the one store you mentioned is a much better choice.

From responsibleshopper.org:

Profile Insights for Walgreen
Profile lists few if any negative social issues.
Profile lists few if any negative environmental issues.

Profile Insights for Wal-Mart Stores
Profile indicates serious problems and/or patterns of significant negative social behaviors.
Profile lists few if any negative environmental issues.

Wal-Mart Stores has been criticized for:
Child Labor
Corporate Influence
Cultural Impact
Discrimination
Sweatshop Labor
Worker Rights
Discrimination
Resistance to Unionization
Cultural Impact
Ethics
Health and Safety
Legal Disputes
Toxic Emissions or Discharges

It's all about making responsible choices.

[Hippo_Tron]

123. Unfortunately I'm spending my parents' money

But now that you've informed me of the difference between Wal-Mart and other big corporations, I'll do what i can to shop at ANY other store if I have the opportunity. Can't promise that I'll fully avoid Wal-Mart but I'll do my best.

I'll also encourage my friends to shop at BestBuy and other stores instead of Wal-Mart for their electronics, DVDs, music, etc.

[Starlight]

125. Here are some good resources that you may find helpful.

I've been using these sites to help me make better shopping choices. I was surprised at the big difference I found in what I thought were very similar stores, like Cosco (good) & Sam's Club (bad). In general it's better to shop at smaller, local stores rather than the huge national chains so I've been trying to do that more, but as far as the "big boxes" go, Bed, Bath & Beyond, Barnes & Noble and Cosco donate a lot to Democrats.

http://www.responsibleshopper.org/

http://www.choosetheblue.com/main.php

http://www.freenortheast.com/thelist.php

[Hippo_Tron]

135. Yea I've seen some of these, I was quite surprised by some of them

Both of the major bookstore chains (Barnes and Noble + Borders) donate to democrats, as does Starbucks coffee. Thus, I alternate between them and local stores. For books, if I'm looking for political books I usually go to one of the big book stores because they generally have those. If I'm looking for stuff that I need to read for school, I usually shop at a local bookstore because they usually have what I need. As far as coffee goes, I get my coffee at a semi-local place (it's a chain but as far as I know it doesn't go outside of the city, and definately not outside of the state) and I go to Starbucks when I'm on the road.

For a long time I was under the impression that all big businesses donated to Republicans, but I was glad to learn that, that was not the case.

[SoCalDem]

58. As long as people want $4 shoes and plastic junk

Walmart will be there to fulfill their wishes. :(

We are getting a SUPER Walmart (we already have ONE)../The new one is going into a section of town that has built up over about 10 years, and not a single grocery store ever opened in that part of town, so of course Walmart will be a welcome addition for the homeowners who live out there, but I think there will be some serious losses for the grocery stores that used to get those people's business.

We just had the only Von's store close a few weeks ago, and there will be others following suit, I fear..

Our town is growing by leaps and bounds, but the new businesses are all BIGBOX ..When they have milked us, and created traffic problems (which we already have lots of), people will complain, and they will move on to the next "hot" community, leaving behind their empty congrete block shells/.

We have an empty HomeBase and theatre, that have beeen sitting empty for about 6 years.. No one wants to buy or rent a 200K sq ft empty concrete box.

[slor]

61. Peak oil will do it! n/t

[msongs]

62. Walmart music section is small...how can it take out yer local....

music store? The walmart music section here is not any bigger than half my small house.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[wankawanka]

66. i talked to the owner of the store he said that walmart will only have the

big money makers. with walmart taking that there is not enought left for him to cover his marketing expenses

[Silverhair]

181. By CDs online.

You can get even lower than WM prices by waiting just a bit and going to Amazon.com and buying from their used section. Only once have I gotten a used DVD that had problems. I accept that as part of the risk for the overall savings.

[Arkansas Gazette]

136. Most towns have a store that sells used CD's.

That's where I buy mine. I pay $9 instead of Wal-Mart's $15 for a typical CD. You have to check the bottom side of the CD for cracks and scratches, but it's well worth six bucks to me to do it! Plus, I'm giving my money to a local small business, not to a large souless corporation.

[proud2BlibKansan]

140. Those are the only decent music stores left

The ones that sell used CDs.

Sad, the big stores have gone under.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skittles]

121. nasty

there are ways to point out spelling errors without being so curt. How about responding to the post WITH the suggestion?

[orpupilofnature57]

96. You cant shop there tomorrow,K-mart helped start the whole mess.

[Cookie wookie]

118. Best way to stop Walmart is to boycott

For those in towns too small, who have no choice but using Walmart, can you shop for some items via the Internet?

The last time I was in Walmart was almost a year ago. What I saw was cheap products that were cheap quality. I was looking for patio/lawn furniture. When I checked the labels, it seemed the products did not conform to current product safety regulations. If I recall correctly, one patio set conformed to safety regulations from the 1930s. Left me wondering if other products were the same. Other questions I had: are these being produced in China to not only use slave labor but also somehow to skirt current product safety regulations in the US? Does this mean children's clothes won't be fire safe? Does this mean ceramic dishes for eating could be adding lead to people's diets?

As to the patio furniture, they had cheap stuff and some looked attractive at first glance. The prices were lower than anywhere else. But on closer look, the patio swings already had rust around the screws; the cushion covers were made in a way that they couldn't be taken off to wash; the webbing on the lawn chairs was not made in a way that it could be replaced and didn't look like it would last very long. So what's cheap about -- if it poses possible health risks, can't be repaired, and won't last long it's just junk or worse, dangerous.

Maybe Libertarians and Republicans won't mind their children undergoing plastic surgery from melted pajamas -- if they live....oh those terrible Government regulations .

[Hippo_Tron]

124. Asking people to shop online for everything is unreasonable...

If Wal-Mart is the ONLY option, then I'd suggest that they just spend as little as possible there.

[bvar22]

122. Wanna drive a STAKe through Wal-Mart's cold black heart?

Help inject this meme into the public awareness:

Money spent at Wal-Mart
is used to KILL God's
Unborn Children!!!

Wal-Mart Finances
Forced Abortions!

Wal-Mart is an
ABORTION Store!!!

Help Fight COMMUNISM.
Don't shop at Wal-Mart!!!

[wankawanka]

126. i think you guys should also think about those who do not have the mental

capacity to get the education they need to advance. i think they also have the right to a decent living.

[Moloch]

127. It all depends on the customers....

As long as people continut to shop there to save their 17¢ a can on golden hominy, there will be a Wal-Mart.

[wankawanka]

128. the problem is how they treat labor in order to keep prices that low

[Starlight]

138. I haven't found their prices to even be all that low!

On some things they're a little less than the competition. On others they're more. When compared to my local grocers that double or triple coupons and have great sales, they can be a *lot* more expensive.

[Silverhair]

182. WM matches all sales in grocery.

If Kroger's (or other store) is running an advertised special, I can bring in the advertisement to WM and get the same thing at the same price.

Coupons have not done well for us. They are always for things we don't normally buy, so we quit fooling with them.

I have found the grocery prices to average 20% less than other stores. Yes, I wrote the prices down and compared to other stores.

WM is cheaper. That is a fact.

[durablend]

193. Smiley Mart won't match

Anything they consider to be a "gimmick" sale...meaning buy one get one free, % off, etc. = NO DICE. If your store is matching them anyway, they're going against corporate policy. They also won't match another (WM) location if they have a lower price.

And they're not cheaper on everything...cut this "I know everything so it must be true" attitude out.

[Solon]

205. That is true, I don't know how many times I had to deal with angry...

customers because of it, but I will say that management will occasionally cave in if you raise a big stink. Then again, one time I came into work at L+G and there was a lawn mower outside that I had to deal with. I saw it, and you see the hole in the engine block, I asked, "WTF happened to that thing?" the department manager said it was returned from a customer, that the piston blew out, and the reason the piston blew out was because he didn't use it for a full year, it was damp and corroded a little on the inside, then BOOM! It was no longer under warranty and the customer was stupid, but guess what, he got his money back, because he bitched and moaned to management. I will say that to qualify for management at our store, you had to fork over half your IQ, at least.

[Desert Liberal]

279. They also DON'T match

any price that you have to 'belong' to another store's club to get. We have Dillon's here and I know they implemented the Shopper's Card just to keep Wal-Mart from matching their prices. Now Wal-Mart does NOT match Dillon's ads or many others around here. I can save WAYYYY more going to Dillon's and getting their sales and coupons (usually doubled particularly with a Shopper's Card) than I could ever save at Wal-Mart.

[Silverhair]

129. No. Wal-Mart is successful because...

the people who shop there are satisfied with WM and return and spend more money.

It is their freedom to shop there, just as it is your freedom not to.

Also, in many areas, the choice is NOT between WM & a Mom & Pop. It is between WM and other big chains.

[Doremus]

267. You keep saying it's not a choice of mom and pops...

as if you might be feeling slightly guilty about that possibility?

Whether the competitors are small or large, the fact is that when Wal*Mart moves into a community and begins undercutting the competition, they have a distinct advantage: they do not pay a living wage.

The competitors, whether mom and pop or other chains, many times are unionized and not only pay a higher hourly salary, but also give their employees medical and other benefits. Wal*Mart comes in with its slave labor force and the scales are already tipped in their favor. Add in their unique ability to sell their inventory below cost for however long it takes to attract the majority of a market and it's basically a slaughter.

But you go right ahead and shop there to save your few pennies. You're the one who has to live with yourself.

Just please don't try to make the rest of us believe you're not hurting anyone, because we know otherwise.

[IwinULose]

130. No, it's a free country n/t

[Maraya1969]

132. I just refuse to shop there anymore and when people ask

or I get the chance I tell them it is because Walmart encourages outsourcing in order to get cheaper prices which hurts the US economy and encourages slave labor. Then I tell them I'd rather pay a little extra to make sure people are not abused.

I also say the same thing about buying free range eggs. I pay a little extra to allow a chicken to run free instead of living its entire life in a cage that is too small for it to turn around in.

[goddess40]

134. They'd close a store before they'd allow a union in

They are such a huge cancer that they can afford to let a store or two die without taking any real hit.

[wankawanka]

139. when the dems get back in power (and if) they need to make laws to change

that

[C.C.D.]

143. Yes, go in and color on all their magazines. (nt)

[DrGonzoLives]

144. Except

that Wal-Mart fires ANYONE who even DISCUSSES unions. They won't be unionizing anytime soon, believe me.

[C.C.D.]

148. Rumor has it that they have let unions in their stores in China. (nt)

[DrGonzoLives]

150. They might have to there

That's just the cost of doing business - keep in mind, though, they still make shit working there, so it's no real cost to them.

I had heard that Wal-Marts in France were possibly unionizing, but I don't know what became of that.

[Silverhair]

184. I don't think China has true unions.

They may have something that is called a union but I seriously doubt that they have true trade unions like we do. Remember, they are a genuine dictatorship.

[PallasAthena]

270. You are correct....the government runs the union in China.

In the US, Wal-Mart workers who even THINK about unions (yes, that's hyperbole, but just by a little) are fired. They do psychological tests on people before they are hired to weed out anyone who might be susceptible to union ideas. (Agree or disagree strongly/mildly with statements like "I think rules should always be followed exactly" and "It is never acceptable to go against the directions of my supervisor.")

[jesusq]

149. Most Americans would sell their souls

to save a 67 cents on a 3-pack of mens briefs. I never shop at Walmart and my home is uncluttered on the inside and unlike my neighbors, I do not have a big ass pile of broken up particle board furniture or dysfunctional small appliances on the curb on trash day. Not to toot my own horn, but I think I save a LOT MORE MONEY NOT SHOPPING at WalMart, because I tend to pay a premium for better quality stuff, and because I spend more, I consider every purchase more carefully and only buy what I really need. WalMart shoppers tend to spend an awful lot of money on cheap Chinese-made "stuff" because it is such a "good" price. In the last few years, I have made a point of buying quality USA or EU made goods whenever possible (and affordable). I can't think of a single thing I own (bought in the last 2-3 years) that I would sell at a yard sale because I don't use it.

A great book is "Your Money or Your Life." It helps relate your money to your life's energy, and cause you to think, "was it worth an entire day's after-tax paycheck for a particleboard bookshelf that breaks under the weight of a stack of books after a few months?"

You might save 10% shopping at WalMart, but you'll save 100% if you stay home <grin>

Read this article:

http://www.revolutionleft.org/news_articles/true_blue_c...

Click here to go back to the main forums.

[w4rma]

153. They steal property through abuse of eminent domain laws.

I read that Bush made it easier for power companies to grab up private (and public) land, also for the stated purpose of laying power lines.

Maybe the Walmart infestation can be slowed (or stopped) by strenghening eminent domain laws to protect folks against big buisness? I think alot of conservatives might join in on that campaign. Unfortunately I highly doubt a many elected Repukes would, considering how many neo-cons are basically lying to their rube base about being conservative.

[susierock]

154. Patronize your local mom & pop

I will go out of my way and yes, pay a bit more, to patronize local merchants. This has to grow from a habit into a movement. The diversity of our economy and the vitality of our small business community are at stake.

[Patiod]

213. I go out of my way to patronize local businesses

I don't care if they're owned by Republicans or Democrats, local family businesses get my dollars first.

What's sad is that there AREN'T local businesses in some categories - hard to find locally-owned bookstores anymore, for instance (fortunately there are some in the city).

But there are still local restaurants, hardware stores, shoe stores, etc.

[davidwparker]

264. Good for you. Me too.

Local goods and services. No chain stores. I started doing this when I saw on C-SPAN some members of Black Tea Society doing this. I thought it was a great idea and started doing it.

Check this out.

http://nosweatapparel.com

[Patiod]

271. Thanks for the link

Some folks at my church sell the Equal Exchange Coffee, tea, cocoa and chocolate that are aso on the "no sweat" website - can't speak for the cocoa, but the coffee is incredibly good, and not that expensive.

I asked for (and got) Polartec brand scarf and gloves for Christmas - even though they've expanded into China, they still have a union workforce that is manufacturing in the US (how hard is that to find?).

I do buy at Barnes and Noble - my favorite bookstores are all gone (except the Mystery Bookstore in town). And I've found myself at Dicks, because the family-owned sporting goods stores have disappeared as well.

[complain jane]

156. Just a clueless question here,

what are the political leanings of the owners of Wal-Mart? I'm thinking I already know the answer but I'll try not to be too cynical for once.

[Hippo_Tron]

174. Wal-Mart gives big money to Republicans

Check choosetheblue.com or any other similar sites.

[Silverhair]

183. That is their freedom. They give me lower prices.

Saving about 20% on grocery is a benefit to me.

[Hippo_Tron]

224. Not criticizing your decission to shop there, just answering a question

Thedogfish was just wondering what their political leanings were.

[Silverhair]

229. I am NOT political 100% of the time.

I have a life outside of politics. My family has both Democrats and Republicans in it, and guess what - we get along and love each other. My decision on Wal-Mart are based on my own economic interests. In other posts, on other topics, I have made my politics clear. Moderate left, about on the 40 yard line. Of course most here are at about the 10 to 15 yard line.

During the recent election, on this board, it was lamented that RW preachers were appealing to people to vote against their own economic interest by calling on them to vote on their values.

Now I am not going to debate whether their values are right or wrong, as I think you and I would agree on that. My point is that their values are sincerely held by them. We maintained the position that they should vote for their economic self interest over their values. Of course we also argued with them about their values, but that is a different topic.

We held that economic interest trump values in voting. If we hold that on one side, it is hypocritical to hold the opposite on the other side.

My economic interest are for me to shop where I get the lowest prices. Most of the time, but not always, that means Wal-Mart.

[Solon]

231. Understandable, but shortsighted...

save a penny now, pay a dollar later, that is basically what you are advocating. Wal*Mart is the largest employer in the United States, and it costs you over 1,000 dollars a year in taxes, so who is getting screwed by that deal?

[Hippo_Tron]

251. Reply to the thread as a whole, not to my posts

As I said before, I respect your decission to shop there.

[ChrisNYC]

258. The problem with your logic

Is that it is extremely short-sighted. You may benefit for a year, but you will be dooming yourself in 10. Perhaps in 2015 when Wal Mart has eliminated all the other grocery stores in your area, and suddenly you are spending 50% more on your grocery bill, you will begin to understand why.

And even beyond the fact that Wal Mart is not in your long-term interest, the store is abhorent. Yes, that is their freedom, but I wouldn't buy from Osama if he was selling cheap underwear. Your purchases are funding horrible activities.

[Ilsa]

177. Do everything you can to tie up traffic around the joint.

Visit other businesses in the area to tie up traffic. We have more car wrecks in front of our walmart and sam's club (next door). The road is very busy and there is only one traffic light. Make it as undesirable to go there as possible.

[ScaRBama]

195. The only thing that will stop them....

is for people like you and I to not shop there.

[bobweaver]

259. Wal-Mart's source of power is the money flowing into their cash registers

The only way to "stop" Wal-Mart is for everyone to stop shopping there. The people who shop at Wal-Mart are the ones powering the whole thing. To defeat Wal-Mart you have to convince the millions of people who shop there to shop somewhere else instead.

[Solon]

265. Not only that...

But every dollar that is given to Wal*Mart is taken out of your community in some way or another, minus the substandard wages the employees are paid. It all goes to Bentonville, and is not recirculated into you community, that is another bad economic situation.

[thebigdonkey]

280. ya the fact that it is not reinvested really hurts the community

[davidwparker]

262. Yeah, stop going there. I went there once, long ago before

I learned what they do. I've never been there since. Aparently, some of the proud 48% go there too. All should stop.

[davidwparker]

266. http://nosweatapparel.com/

If you can't find something local, or USA made, at least the above link uses unionized foreign labor.

[moondust]

272. But the culture is so quaint.

The warm, personal touch at WallySqualor is a joy to behold! It contributes so much to the diversity and distinctive character of the community! Most Americans just love Wally's style of predatory capitalism. But what's wrong with you? Are you a communist?

:puke:

[bobweaver]

281. Wal-Mart sucks money out of a community. It's not political, it's economic