Oh brother, can't believe I read this

[Maestro]

While perusing another site (computer hardware related of all things) this ignorant fool was posting this crappola.
________________________________________
DID YOU KNOW?
As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view ... it is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments!


DID YOU KNOW?
As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door.

_________________________________________

He goes on a diatribe about how the founding fathers certainly wanted a Christian government and selects quotes from the likes of John Jay, Jefferson and Washington to name a few. With as much respect as I could muster, and I was really biting my tongue, I responded:

Interesting thread. With all due respect to (Name removed to protect the ignorant ;) ) and others like him I do not believe the idea that this country was founded with the idea that religion would be a driving force in government. The individuals may have been personally religious but this country was founded on freedom of religion and therefore the very astute founders were aware that any sense of a state sponsored religion would be detrimental to that right.

Many of the founders, especially Jefferson were "enlightened" individuals. Afterall, that time period is known as The Enlightenment when science advancements were pushing human knowledge forward.

In fact, as a Christian, be it liberal Christian, I am having deep concerns with my government's blurring of the lines when it comes to separation of church and state. Just as we have seen with extreme Islam, extreme Christianity is very, very bad and harmful to any government. I am so upset that I took issue with some members of my own church. Some are blindly right wing and blame everything on the left making assumptions and assertions that are no where even close to being true. So I took issue with them. If anyone cares to read it, I'll post what I wrote to a huge email list that my church has in response to a nasty attack by some of them.

Anyhow, regarding those pics in the first post, is there anyone besides xxxxx that can verify the veracity of the pics?

And in contrast to what a few (or maybe the majority) think, I present the following in response to the idea that Christianity was meant to be part of our government. Make sure you read all.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/ffnc/ (even though this site says they were not Christian, they all could have been privately but felt that in government religion was harmful.)

http://www.deism.org/foundingfathers.htm

Take a read and I await comments.

Respectfully posted...

Maestro

____________________________________

Almost all of what I wrote I gleemed from DU. Great resource we have here. Any thoughts?

Oh and if you celebrate it.

[Journeyman]

1. That's not the facade of the Supreme Court. . .

Here's a look at the statues above the entry to the US Supreme Court:




More information on the architecture and statuary of the Court building can be found here:

http://bensguide.gpo.gov/3-5/symbols/supreme_court.html

[Sara Beverley]

11. Some US buildings have Medusa's head and snakes. Wo what does

that mean? Just because a statue of Moses is on some building it neither makes him real or right.

What does the right wing think about the ten commandments not mentioning homosexuality as a sin?

[NMDemDist2]

2. not the main entrance, his pic is the east entrance

Too often, visitors do not see the corresponding pediment and columns on the east side.
Here the sculpture group is by Hermon A. MacNeil, and the marble figures represent great
lawgivers, Moses, Confucius, and Solon, flanked by symbolic groups representing Means of
Enforcing the Law, Tempering Justice with Mercy, Settlement of Disputes Between States,
and Maritime and other functions of the Supreme Court. The architrave bears the legend:
“Justice the Guardian of Liberty.”

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/courtbuilding.pdf

please note they have moses AND a chinese philosopher and a Greek teacher

[alittlelark]

3. My great-uncle, Cass Gilbert was the architect

and the article is dead wrong. Confuscious, Moses, Aesop..... It entailed all of that which was considered of moral relevance in Law.

http://www.asinah.net/articles/content/c/ca/cass_gilbert.html
http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/washdc/supremecrt/supremecrt.html
http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/Woolworth_Building.html

If I was at home on my own computer I could give more relevant links... as is, I'm 1000 miles away, it's after midnight (X-MAS!!!) and I gotta sleep, not search!

[BrklynLiberal]

5. Wow! Your uncle was Cass Gilbert! I live and work in NYC and his name

is all over the place here as well!!! Didn't he design the Old Customs House at the foot of Broadway? I walked by it every day on my way to work.

[w4rma]

4. Post this letter, from President Thomas Jefferson, for him to read

Mr. President

To mess? Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. {Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.} Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.
http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html

[jayctravis]

6. Nothing wrong with religious iconography in architecture.

It's decorative and symbolic. Especially when it's subtly in the foundation, as in our country *was* founded by people of faith. There is also architecture featuring unclothed figures and this does not signify that government buildings are orgy temples.

Or does it?

[SlackJawedYokel]

8. I get real tired of hearing that one(please don't take my rant personally)

I just need to get this out.

our country *was* founded by people of faith.
Our country was founded by ignorant, uneducated, racist bigots, too.
But we've learned the error of our ways(for the most part) and apparently we're still learning when it comes to religion in our government.

I will never grok the *need* for some "christians" to force other people to believe the way they do. It boggles my mind that they can't see how completely antithetical to being just and fair this concept is.
In a country with unprecedented religious freedoms they feel the need to use the government and *everyones* tax dollars to promote *their* beliefs... and all the while pretend they aren't and are being persecuted for it along the way!
(I won't even go into how this goes against "what Jesus taught" since Jesus has been used to justify so many abhorent things and bible quotes are used to justify many of them, that "what Jesus taught" is completely meaningless at this point)

There were just as many, if not more, rapscallions, gold-diggers, trappers/hunters, ne'er-do-wells, outright criminals and *lawyers*(heh) who founded this country as "people of faith".
And let us not forget the slaves *owned* by those early American's who did much of the actual work.

I'm real tired of hearing this as a justification for the nonsense being peddled by the ultra-conservatives in power.
From where I stand, this is one last gasp of a dying social mindset that has no connection with reality.
You can't preach justice and equality with one hand and incite prejudice and hatred with the other.

I mean, did you *see* the conservative defense for outlawing gay marriage being that homosexuals are *unfit* to fulfill the "procreational function" of marriage??
WTF?
Are we not going to allow the infertile to marry now?
The post-reproductive?
GAH!

If this country was founded by "christians" then the definition of "christian" can mean almost anything.
People believed(and still believe) because it is more comforting to believe than to not believe.
People believed because there wasn't much of a socially acceptable alternative... in fact, quite the opposite.
And people believed because ultimately we're all alone on the world and that is a *damned* scary concept to come to terms with.

Ultimately the Europeans who conquered the Americas weren't here for "christian" reasons but for completely selfish and self-serving reasons.
They came here to exploit the natural resources of an untapped continent, to "make their way" in a new world because they couldn't in the old one and in many cases were *forced* to come here.

I tell people half-jokingly that America was founded by "christians" that everyone else in Europe kicked out.

{/rant}
Sorry for the mess. :D

There is also architecture featuring unclothed figures and this does not signify that government buildings are orgy temples.
You mean America *wasn't* founded by nekkid people?
Damn history books!
:D

Cletus

[sans qualia]

7. 1935! That building was finished in 1935!

What on Earth does it have to do with the founding fathers?

[GOPisEvil]

9. Go to Snopes and debunk that load of crap.

[Maestro]

10. Thanks to everyone!!!!!

I have successfully put the guy in his place!

[LWolf]

12. I prefer this one:

"Peace Protecting Genius."

I believe it's appropriate to reflect on, in the season of "peace on earth." The only candidate in my entire 44.67 years on earth I've ever truly liked, let alone respected, and a better democrat than I, said it best:

http://www.fracturednews.com/FN-pages/Kucinich%20pages/Lakeside.htm

Violence is not inevitable.

War is not inevitable.

Nonviolence and peace are inevitable.

We can make of this world a gift of peace which will confirm the presence of universal spirit in our lives.

We can send into the future the gift which will protect our children from fear, from harm, from destruction.

Carved inside the pediment which sits atop the marble columns is a sentinel at the entrance to the United States House of Representatives.

Standing resolutely inside this "Apotheosis of Democracy" is a woman, a shield by her left side, with her outstretched right arm protecting a child happily sitting at her feet.

The child holds the lamp of knowledge under the protection of this patroness.

This wondrous sculpture, by Paul Wayland Bartlett, is entitled "Peace Protecting Genius".

Not with nuclear arms, but with a loving maternal arm is the knowing child Genius shielded from harm.

This is the promise of hope over fear.

This is the promise of love which overcomes all.

This is the promise of faith which overcomes doubt.

This is the promise of light which overcomes darkness.

This is the promise of peace which overcomes war.