Any Theologians or people smarter than me out there?

[Maraya1969]

I got this "Christmas Card" email from a relative who is a Minister. Anyone want to give me their take on what he is trying to say with this Biblical Quote? It is not as easy as the Chaplain, (from another thread) telling the US troops that they were shepherds protecting the US from the dark forces of Iraq, (by blowing off their heads). Here is the card with the names removed.


In this season of the Messiah



“Here is my servant, whom I uphold,

my chosen one in whom I delight;

I will put my Spirit on him

and he will bring justice to the nations.

2 He will not shout or cry out,

or raise his voice in the streets.

3 A bruised reed he will not break,

and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.

In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;

4 he will not falter or be discouraged

till he establishes justice on earth.

In his law the islands will put their hope.”

Isaiah 42:1 – 4



Wishing you a Blessed Christmas,

[pnutchuck]

1. go to this thread, lots of quoting going on

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=3754&mesg_id=3754&page=

[Clark2008]

31. Pnutchuck

I LOVE that pencil drawing of the WTC.

My son has - it's a long story regarding his Arab heritage and 9/11 and his goodness - but he wants to be an architect.

I'd like him to see this picture up close. Did you draw it? What's the story behind it (I want to show it to him, but he'll ask).

[Pegleg Thd]

2. This is definitely

NOT talking about the bush criminals.

[jody]

3. Prophecy of Jesus' life. n/t

[MaryBear]

4. Neither a theologian nor likely smarter,

I'll offer a couple of possibilites.

If this minister supports G. Bush and his war, I would guess the passage refers to Bush doing G_d's work in the world.

If he opposes this war, I would say it refers to all of us being peacefulpeacemakers devoted to democracy.

Coompany's here. Gotta go.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. bringing justice....

doesn't sound like the Bush Administration

[ClintonTyree]

14. Perhaps.........

"perceived" justice. Everything "*" does is proceeded by a thought or at least a "thought-like process". "*" "thinks" he's bringing justice, at least his sick, demented version of it.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. but if you mean TRUE justice,

it doesn't fit Bushco.

[FM Arouet666]

6. Crusade, lets us all rejoice in the death of our fellow man.

We shall bring justice, christian justice, to the world, the world of non-believers. The lard has anointed his holy crusade.

Amazing!?!?!?!?!? So ironic that religion, complete with rigid dogma and canon law, is so free with relative moral values. Thou shall not kill, lest it be in the name of the lard. :evilfrown:

[Maraya1969]

7. He IS a Bush supporter

I am just confused about these two verses because they seem to be saying "don't fight"


2 He will not shout or cry out,

or raise his voice in the streets.

3 A bruised reed he will not break,

and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.

[okasha]

13. It has nothing to do with Bush

It's part of Isaiah's prophecy concerning the Messiah and the eventual institution of the Peaceable Kingdom where the "lion and the lamb" lie down together.

It goes on:

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house....
16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do to them, and not forsake them.

It is precisely these prophecies that Jesus says he has fulfilled in Luke 4:

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up; and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagoge were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

If it applies to Bush at all, it is as an indictment. He has lied (blinded people) and held gods know how many people captive unjustly.
The "acceptable year of the Lord" is the Year of Jubilee, by the way, the sabbath or seventh year in which slaves are to be freed, debts forgiven and property that has been let out returned.

Okasha

[timtom]

8. This section of Isaiah is describing

some of the characteristics of the coming Messiah.

I will put my Spirit on him
(He will be filled with the Spirit of God)

and he will bring justice to the nations.
(Self-evident. This is the Messiah, now, not the US troops in Iraq)

2 He will not shout or cry out,
or raise his voice in the streets.

(what the Messiah will do will be done quietly and without foofarah)

3 A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.

(He will show Mercy to the wounded and dying)

In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;
he will not falter or be discouraged
till he establishes justice on earth.

(This one is tricky: The Messiah will establish justice. Does this mean Universal Justice established across the earth once and for all? Or is that the justice that Jesus taught and through the Holy Spirit, a Justice that we can all claim as we deal with others?)

In his law the islands will put their hope.”

(Now that I think about it, this one might answer the questions posed above.)

Isaiah 42:1 – 4

I am not a theologian, but I do know a little about the Bible. What I have stated above is certainly consonant with the core beliefs of mainstream Christianity.

[hfojvt]

12. Isaiah does not have a comma

but I believe it should be: "a bruised reed, he will not break". In other words, HE is the bruised reed, from the attacks of the unrighteous, but he will not break. He is the smoldering wick who will not allow himself to be snuffed out. Because of his faithfulness, he will not falter.

[madrchsod]

9. isaiah?

why doesn`t he quote jesus? why do they never talk about what jesus said. can`t stand the bastards that use this to promote the fuck`n war on the innocents. may they all burn in hell

[hfojvt]

15. Hey, Isaiah rocks

at least deutero-Isaiah. Jesus quotes him alot. He is all for the poor and oppressed.

[jwirr]

21. You are missing the point.

Isaiah was a prophet at least 500 years before Jesus was born and he is the most important part of a long line of prophets who foretell the coming of the Messiah. He is quoted at Christmas because his words are used to identify Jesus as the Messiah. They describe the spirit of Jesus and his mission.

[hfojvt]

10. It could be an innocent reference to Jesus

Or it could be a sinster reference to Bush.
Fundies think the Spirit of the Lord is on him. He is bringing justice or revenge to the terrorists and upholding the unborn. Although he is viciously attacked by the liberal media and Michael Moore, he will not falter.
You could answer with Jeremiah 23:32 "Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams" declares the Lord. "They tell them and lead my people astray with their RECKLESS LIES, yet I did not send or appoint them."
Joy to the world.

[Nothing Without Hope]

11. I'm no theologian, but I think this has a positive tone.

The "justice" and "law" seem to be accompanied by a kind of gentleness or restraint:
He will not shout or cry out,
or raise his voice in the streets.
A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.

He doesn't seem to be encouraging "righteously" blasting all opponents' heads off. Rather, he seems to be saying that the law should be a protection for the weak rather than a justification for violence. I'm not a Christian, so I'm not justifying his intentions from mere hopefulness. It's what the words sound like to me.

If that's what he intended, though, it would have been helpful for him to add some explanation. He seems to feel that the words speak for themselves, and perhaps they do -- to him.

[xchrom]

17. a description of christ

you have some great explanations -- and i will only add that a christ follower would not support this war.

[okasha]

18. Isaiah does have something for Bush, though: Chapter 14

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
18 All the kings of the nations , even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Okasha

[fishingriver]

19. Interpretation of Message

What he is saying is this-

"If Bush isn't the anti-christ the devil doesn't need one".

[NMDemDist2]

20. hubby's fundie cousin sent us a card with a "baby's" footprint (like they

take in the hospital) on the front that says


"Unto you is born this day" and you open it up and it says "...a Savior who is Christ the Lord" with a big inked handprint with a bloody red spot in the palm!!




ARGGGHHHH is so grossed me out!

[jwirr]

22. Now that was from a fundie!

The feet are a symbol of pro-life. As for the rest of it they are trying to suggest that we could have been aborting Jesus. However, they are weakening their own God. A true God would have the power to complete His plans regardless of mankind's actions or He is not a God.

[hfojvt]

23. actually, the handprint

is referring to Jesus' crucifixion

[NMDemDist2]

24. exactly and it was just chilling and gross to me

:shudder:

why are the fundies so stuck on the death of Jesus that they forget his teaching of love thy neighbor and judge not and turn the other cheek but they go in droves to Gibson's snuff film that didn't (from what I hear) speak of Christ's teaching on how to live

by focusing on his death, they forget his life :shrug:

anyway I found the card highly offensive and we threw it away!

[hfojvt]

26. according to them

it is his death and resurrection which are the key, not his teaching, although I do not find that message in his teaching. If you take away the resurrection, Jesus is lowered to the level of Socrates or Bertrand Russell, or maybe to Moses and Elijah. The Passion is supposed to show two things - the love of God (in taking the beating and death) and the depravity of people (in delivering the beating and death). So they end up with a tough outlook, determined to toe the line and shake a finger at those who don't.

[NMDemDist2]

32. wha????

i don't get that at all

loving God is taking a beating? and don't listen to his words? just get your jollys off a snuff film? this is spiritual ?how? exactly???


no wonder I'm not a Christian, I just don't get it :shrug:

[hfojvt]

34. It is not supposed to be understood rationally

LOL.
And as a secular person who tries to follow Jesus' teachings, I cannot tell you anything about spirituality. Ethics I understand, and myths too, but spirituality - I do not know.
Do you remember Room 101 from the book 1984? Winston is going to get his face chewed up by rats, his greatest fear, and he yells out "no, do this to my girlfriend" (whose name eludes me). The story of Jesus is the other way around. We are supposed to be tortured and killed, but God, in the person of Jesus, takes our place.
Certainly you know the four points:
1. All have sinned
2. the penalty for sin is death and hell
3. Jesus (who was God) paid the penalty in our place
4. Anyone who believe #3 will goto Heaven
The teachings of Jesus are not ignored, but #3 above is considered primary part of his teachings (even though he talks about that very little, it comes more from John and Paul (Ringo and George are just back-up)). To follow Jesus' teachings without believing #3, like I do, makes you a heretic who will burn in hell right next to Hitler, Gandhi and Asimov while a believer like George W. Bush will be up in heaven saying to Moses amd O'Reilly "watch this drive".
For them the "snuff film" shows how much God was willing to suffer and also how depraved humans are. God becomes like the mother who keeps you in line by reminding you of her labor pains.
Of course we are taught this, like the Santa Claus story, from childhood. In spite of that, I find believers to be quite admirable in many ways. Real believers, that is, not faux ones like W and Falwell and O'Reilly (oh my).

[NMDemDist2]

35. so I can believe in Christ's teachings and strive to be "Christlike" in my

actions and go to hell anyway??

hmmmmm I think the church lost something in translation here

I don't buy it and I won't

but the fundie cousin (referenced above) says that if we don't believe in his (the cousin's)take on #3 of your list (and that Jesus is the ONLY WAY which is not on your list) then there was no basis for discussion of any spiritual practice. It basically came down to "you're either with us or against us" and we couldn't "agree to disagree" at all

well with all the loving spirit I can muster, I'll just have to say "Screw you fundie closed minded hateful pompous hypocritical bastards."

but that's just me........

[jwirr]

36. I was referring to the footprints not the handprints.

Fundies wear them on their lapels to identify each other as pro-life.

[MidwestMomma]

29. I went looking on the web for Jesus footprint cards

I was so flabbergasted by your post. I didn't find the cards but I did find a 'Jesus is born' web page with, get this, 'Jesus is born snacks'.

http://www.perpetualpreschool.com/christianthemes/bible_themes/christian_christmas_snacks.htm

That cracked me up!

But back to the card you got...I would die laughing if I got a card like that. Where do they come up with these ideas?

[NMDemDist2]

33. I looked too so I could post a pic ....here it

is....

http://store1.yimg.com/I/yhst-93128105900816_1823_179716 (can't get it to post since there is no "jpeg" in the properties

[bobbieinok]

25. a prophecy about Jesus 'the Suffering Servant' ??????

a suggestion

Isaiah 42
The Servant of the Lord
1 "Here is my servant, whom I uphold,

my chosen one in whom I delight;

I will put my Spirit on him

and he will bring justice to the nations.

2 He will not shout or cry out,

or raise his voice in the streets.

3 A bruised reed he will not break,

and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.

In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;

4 he will not falter or be discouraged

till he establishes justice on earth.

In his law the islands will put their hope."



5 This is what God the LORD says-

he who created the heavens and stretched them out,

who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it,

who gives breath to its people,

and life to those who walk on it:

6 "I, the LORD , have called you in righteousness;

I will take hold of your hand.

I will keep you and will make you

to be a covenant for the people

and a light for the Gentiles,

7 to open eyes that are blind,

to free captives from prison

and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.



8 "I am the LORD ; that is my name!

I will not give my glory to another

or my praise to idols


we might want to consider these lines in 200-2004...


7 to open eyes that are blind,

to free captives from prison

and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.



8 "I am the LORD ; that is my name!

I will not give my glory to another

[Tinoire]

27. A message from God to you and me

Yes this is about Jesus and the thought was repeated later:
Luke 3: 21-22

Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form as a dove, and a voice came from heaven, "Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased."

but it is also about us and that's why it's sent out a lot by Christians wanting peace. It's God saying that we're his chosen servants also, that his spirit is in us too.

Like Jesus, we've been "anointed" by God to work for peace and justice and this passage tells us that He'll be by our side as we do so. That's why you see frail little 80 year old nuns (along with other people pf good conscience) bravely protesting the missile silos in our country, spreading the liberation of the poor in the Third World ((Ever wonder why the US government is REALLY pissed off at the Catholic Church??)) They KNOW they are doing God's will.

Here is part of a sermon a friend of my family gave about this passage:

Clearly, Jesus put himself in solidarity with the people who had come to be baptized. This was a baptism for the forgiveness of sins, a baptism of repentance. Jesus, the Son of God, did not need such a baptism. Yet he wanted to identify with us sinners, so he took his place at the end of the line. He wanted so much to be one with us, to be in solidarity with us, that he accepted the role of a sinner. He accepted upon himself our own sinfulness.

One of the most important things we can do to bring justice and make peace happen is to be in solidarity with those who are oppressed, those who are poor, those who need to be lifted up, those who need healing.

I found it fascinating last week to see a picture in the paper of the president of Brazil. President Lula da Silva is his name. Brazil is the second largest country in our hemisphere. You might think the president of Brazil would ride around in a big limousine, protected by armed guards, secret service and all that. Not President Lula, as he is popularly called. He walks in the streets among the poorest of the poor.

The picture shows him embracing, as the caption says, "a scavenger." The president of the country is embracing a garbage picker. President Lula was elected by people who wanted to see change in Brazil, people who thought he could bring some justice to the poor. He can't change everything right away, but he lets the people know he understands their suffering, their hurt and their oppression. He lets them know he is one with them. Because of this, I am sure the people have great confidence that he will continue to help bring change so the revolution can take place and the poor will be raised up.

That's always the first step: trying to be in solidarity with the oppressed. People understand how healing that is. I experienced it myself just a few weeks ago when I was in Colombia. I was among very poor people, people who have been oppressed and treated with violence. Even now they live under threat of eviction from their land. Truthfully, there isn't much I can do, but I could for a short time be with them, and that means a lot. It helps them begin to understand that someone cares about them. Once you show you care, people can begin to be healed. That's what Jesus showed us as he walked with the sinners. He became one with them so that they could become one with him.

Now, listen again to those words of Isaiah and understand what God is saying about Jesus: "You are my servant; you are my chosen one; in you I take delight, because you will reject the way of violence and only bring gentleness, compassion, love and healing to liberate the people." As we hear God speaking about Jesus in this way, we can't help but contrast that with what we have been doing as a people.

If you have been following the news at all, you know that we went to war in Iraq under false pretenses. There are no weapons of mass destruction. This past week, Secretary of State Colin Powell said there never was any clear evidence connecting Iraq with al- Qaeda.

Just yesterday, the former secretary of the treasury, Paul O'Neil, said that the administration began planning a war in Iraq from the beginning of its term. The administration was intent on going to war even before Sept. 11, 2001. So, our nation was brought into violence, killing, suffering and death under false pretenses. This is contrary to the way of Jesus. It is a tragedy for us, because people throughout the world say they can no longer trust the leaders of the United States to tell the truth in public forums like the United Nations. It has broken down any possibility for trust and confidence among nations that could be the basis for peace.

We use violence and killing, and say we are liberating people. Jesus brought true liberation, true justice and true peace, but only through love. That is the way of Jesus. We might find it difficult to follow, but through our baptism, we have said we are his disciples. Every day, we must try to deepen our understanding of what that means, so that in every aspect of our lives we try to follow the way of Jesus.

Perhaps this morning as we renew our baptismal promises and as we listen to the eucharistic prayer proclaimed, we will begin to act as we pray: We will follow Jesus, we will work for peace and we will bring happiness to others. I invite each of you to reflect for a moment on your life, being mindful of how you can be more faithful in following the way of Jesus. Then I will invite all of us to stand and renew our baptismal promises. In doing this, we will recommit ourselves to being disciples of Jesus, servants of God, filled with the Holy Spirit and going into the world to bring true justice, true liberation and true peace to all peoples.

In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

January 11, 2004
Thomas J. Gumbleton
Auxiliary Bishop of the Archdiocese
of Detroit, Michigan *

http://www.nationalcatholicreporter.org/peace/gumb011104.htm

((Permission to reprint and distribute granted))

"They were going to call it 'Operation Iraqi Liberation' — but then they realized that the acronym would be OIL."

[Lexingtonian]

28. It's selfcongratulatory Jesus-ganda

I wouldn't read anything particular of a political nature into it unless there is some further context.

Relatives of mine send out stuff of the kind and in their case it means 'we gave up on politicians and the goodness of human beings long ago, we're escapists and counting on The Second Coming, really'.

[Clark2008]

30. OK.. Isaiah is in the Old Testament

Nevermind... this was all answered up-thread, so I'm self-deleting to prevent redunancy.

:)