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Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh - Assassinated by Extremists

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InvisibleBallots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:26 PM
Original message
Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh - Assassinated by Extremists
Edited on Tue Dec-28-04 12:52 PM by InvisibleBallots
In August 2001, Fortuyn was quoted in the Rotterdams Dagblad (newspaper) as saying, among other things, "I am also in favour of a cold war with Islam. I see Islam as an extraordinary threat, as a hostile society." This was based in his experience with Islamic intolerance for him and the homosexuals lifestyle.

On February 9, 2002, he made further controversial statements in a Dutch newspaper, this time the Volkskrant. He said that the Netherlands, with a population of 16 million, had enough inhabitants, and therefore, the practice of allowing 40,000 asylum-seekers into the country each year had to be stopped. He claimed that if he became part of the next government, he would pursue an exceptionally restrictive immigration policy. Furthermore, he considered Article 7 of the constitution, which asserts freedom of speech, of more importance than Article 1, which forbids discrimination. However, he distanced himself from Hans Janmaat of the Centrumpartij, who in the 1980's wanted to remove all foreigners from the country and was repeatedly convicted for discrimination and hate speech. Fortuyn proposed that people who already resided in the Netherlands be able to stay. He rejected all violence and was not against immigrants as a group, but he would not allow any more Muslims to enter the country if this were legally possible.

When asked by Volkskrant whether he hated Islam, he replied, "I don't hate Islam. I consider it a backward (see note) culture. I have travelled much in the world. And wherever Islam rules, it's terrible. All the hypocrisy. It's a bit like those old Reformed Protestants. The Reformed lie all the time. And why is that? Because they have norms and values that are so high that you can't humanly maintain them. You also see that in Muslim culture. Look at the Netherlands. In what country could a leader of such a large movement as mine be openly homosexual? It's fantastic that it's possible. That's something that we can be proud of. And I want to keep it that way."

Fortuyn was author of the 1997 book Against the Islamicization of Our Culture.

'Note' The Dutch word he used to express "backward" bears the more negative connotations of the word "retarded".

On May 6, 2002, at age 54, he was assassinated by an animal-rights activist named Volkert van der Graaf. The attack took place in a parking garage outside a radio studio in Hilversum, where Fortuyn had just given an interview. This was nine days before the elections for the lower house of Parliament, for which he was running. The attacker was pursued by witnesses and was arrested by the police shortly afterwards, still in possession of a gun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pim_Fortuyn

(IB) On economic policy, Fortuyn supported Margaret Thatcher/Ronald Reagan style policies, wanted to cut taxes on the wealthy to spur growth, and supporting cutting government benefits and welfare to the poor and immigrants, instead suggested drafting those on public assistance into the military or social work.


Theo van Gogh

Van Gogh was a member of the Dutch republican society Republikeins Genootschap which advocates the abolition of the Dutch monarchy, and a friend and supporter of the controversial Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn who was assasinated in 2002. He was also a staunch supporter of President Bush, and the American-led invasion of Iraq, although he has revised his stance to a more neutral one in 2004, the year he was assassinated.

As a newspaper columnist, he was known for being provocative and politically incorrect. He caused resentment in the Moroccan community by consistently referring to them as "geitenneukers" (goatfuckers), which he justified by reference to alleged remarks on the permissibility of bestiality in a book on Islamic law by the Ayatollah Khomeini. In addition, van Gogh incurred the anger of leading members of the Jewish community by making comments about what he saw as the Jewish preoccupation with Auschwitz and by making jokes like "What a smell of caramel today. Today the crematoriums burn only diabetic Jews". When he was criticized by the Jewish historian Evelien Gans, he wrote in Folia Civitatis magazine: "I suspect that Ms Gans gets wet dreams about being fucked by Dr Mengele" and expressed the wish that she would sue him so that she would have to explain in court why his remarks were false.

Van Gogh's film Submission

Working from a script by Hirsi Ali, van Gogh created the 10-minute movie Submission. The film is about violence against women in Islamic societies. It shows four abused women, naked under see-through dresses with Qur'anic verses in Arabic unfavourable to women, painted on their bodies. After the movie was released, both van Gogh and Hirsi Ali received death threats. Van Gogh did not take these very seriously and refused any protection.

Van Gogh's murder

Van Gogh was murdered in the early morning of Tuesday November 2, 2004, in Amsterdam in front of the Amsterdam East borough office (stadsdeelkantoor) on the corner of the Linnaeusstraat and Tweede Oosterparkstraat streets. He was shot with eight bullets from a HS2000 (a handgun produced in 2000 in Croatia) and died on the spot. His throat was slit, and he was then stabbed in the chest. Two knives were left inplanted in his torso, one pinning a five-page note to his body. The note threatened Western governments, Jews and Hirsi Ali (who went into hiding). The note also contains references to the ideologies of the Egyptian organization Takfir wal-Hijra.

The alleged killer Mohammed Bouyeri, a 26-year-old man of Dutch and Moroccan nationalities, was apprehended by the police after being shot in the leg. Although born in Amsterdam, well-educated and apparently well-integrated, Bouyeri became a Muslim extremist and has alleged terrorist ties. In the Dutch media the suspect is called Mohammed B., since it is common practice in The Netherlands to abbreviate the surnames of crime suspects (or even convicts) in order to protect their privacy. He is also charged with attempted murder of a police officer and bystander, illegal possession of a firearm, and conspiring to murder others, including Hirsi Ali.

Until his death Van Gogh was working on a movie (0605) about the assassination of Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn. The film is set for premiere on December 15, 2004 on the internet through a Dutch ISP, which also financed the movie.

Van Gogh was cremated on November 9, 2004 in Amsterdam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_(film_director)

(IB) Netherlanders responded to the murder of Van Gogh by among other things, burning down mosques, Muslim elementary schools, and Christian churches, and holding formal "Citizenship Discussions" - in Dutch only - all around the country in public places to define "what it means to be Dutch".



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InvisibleBallots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. Are these guys Liberals or Conservatives or what?
I guess they are kind of hard to place?
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. They were right-wing extremists
Edited on Tue Dec-28-04 12:56 PM by Kathy in Cambridge
I would say in these two cases what comes around, goes around.
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Meme Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. after van Gogh was killed
there was a huge national discussion about what it means to dutch people to be able to have an opinion, and clearly we all feel that is really really important. You should be able to have your opinion (even if it´s kinda extreme) as long as you don´t really hurt anyone. And believe me: I´ve had this discussion with dutch people also (defending muslim people) and I really didn´t like van Gogh at all, but he DID work with muslim people in movies, so it´s not like he absolutely hated them or anything. In fact: one of the guys he worked with in a movie (a muslim) said he really saw van Gogh as (almost) his second father. As I said: I didnt like the guy either, but there was more to him. And I don´t think murder is the answer, ever!
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. not everyone agrees on that
van Gogh was very critical of govt policies (or lack thereof) wrt "integration" of immigrants originating from non-western cultures.

Given that any kind of critisism towards immigrants is (was) considered to be politically incorrect, van Gogh's critisism compounded by his blunt style can easily be thought of as extreme. Certainly he wasn't trying to be polite, but he wasn't hatefull or racist.

Wrt Fortuyn there is very little argument about him being pretty far to the right. Though i'd say he wasn't as far to the right as Jan Maat was, even though both got popular support from neo-nazi types (who in the case of Fortuyn had temporarily forgotten they also hate gays).
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InvisibleBallots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. calling Morroccans "goatfuckers" might be
Edited on Tue Dec-28-04 03:43 PM by InvisibleBallots
considered racist by many
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. He was their version of Michael Savage
lots of anti-Arab and anti-Indonesian slurs in his writing.
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InvisibleBallots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. and Fortuyn their ?
Pim Fortuyn is an interesting character. I think he'd fit right in here on DU.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Fortuyn would fit in here on DU, as a disruptor or mole
Fortuyn was anything but left or progressive.
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InvisibleBallots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. wait, wait hold on
Fortuyn was a "socially liberal, fiscal conservative" - he strongly supported LGBT rights, was avowedly pro-choice, was extremely hostile to fundamentalist religions of all kinds, a strong supporter of the separation between church and state and a proponent of secularism. True, his economic policies might be considered too right-wing for DU, but not by *that* much.

I think a Fortuyn would fit in perfectly on DU - in fact, I think that Dean had a lot in common with him (obviously plenty of differences as well). I also think that a Fortuyn style movement is coming to the US, and the secular Democrats will be a big part of it.

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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Fortuyn had strong support from neo-nazi's
you don't really want a Fortuyn style movement in the US.
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InvisibleBallots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. well, David Duke was "Anybody But Bush"
:shrug:

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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. moreover. in Europe "liberal" is equivalent to RW
over here "liberal" is by no means synonimous with left-wing/progressive.

Once upon a time Fortuyn was an advisor to the Dutch labor party, then he went to the other camp. this should sound somewhat familiar; look into the history of neocons in the US.
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InvisibleBallots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. good point about the neocons
Is liberal really considered "right wing" or just sort of a generic conservative? What's the difference between "liberals" and "conservatives" in the EU?
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WillieWoohah Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
23. Theo Van Gogh was anything but a right-wing extremist
If anything, he is a martyr to the ideals of liberal secularism.

How can you say "what goes around, comes around"? Do you think he deserves death for calling Muslims goat-fuckers? Isn't that a bit over the top?

He campaigned tirelessly for the rights of women in immigrant communities and in defence of secular liberal society. Your post is a disgrace.

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not systems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Libertine nationalists...
a flavor that is very rare in God's country.

Some big-L Libertarians are similar, some Rand types
fit this profile.

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Meme Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
3. I feel like I do have to add
that Muslim people did demonstrate against the murder of van Gogh. That there were discussions between muslim dutch people and native dutch people, and there was some kind of action with orange bracelets saying: respect 2 all, because of the increasing discrimination agains muslim people as well as the murder on van Gogh, so really... there were some good things (I personally think). However, these things shouldn´t happen.. ever.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Onthaal aan DU!
Waar bent u van?
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. Most Dutch people by far did not burn down any mosque,
and arguably most Dutch people do oppose the burning down of mosques as much as they oppose burning down synagogues.
I wonder very much just how many Christian churches have been burned down... i've never heard of that one.

Also you'd be surprised how many of those (very few) people who do support the burning down mosques also support the burning down of synagogues.
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InvisibleBallots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. of course not
only a handful of Americans attacked Muslims after 911 too. I don't know how many churches were burned down, nor by who - the media referred to "churches" plural so I assume for than one. I for one, assumed it was Muslims attacking Churches as some sort of revenge, but now I'm not so sure.

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InvisibleBallots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
7. 0605 - The film Van Gogh was working on
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
10. ... And your point is ...?
eom
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InvisibleBallots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. I need a point?
It's an interesting topic for disucssion, isn't it? If not, why do you respond? :shrug:
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Well, I responded because I have close family ties with the
Netherlands and thought that you might be attempting to make an unflattering point about the Dutch.
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InvisibleBallots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. sensitive, huh?
I was just over there and this was the talk of the town. I also think that Fortyun and van Gogh would fit right in here on DU, so I was just curious about what people thought.
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Yes, I am sensitive about it.
And I think you're right about fitting on DU, but they would have to be careful
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