The Parables of Porn

[shondradawson]

Dear Gentlemen:

I have just read your article, "The Politics of Porn," on the CommonDreams.org website today.

I am not surprised by the evident scorn with which you treat the viewpoints of what you consider to be a "minority" group of people who question the intrinsic value of pornography and the ramifications of its relatively unchecked and so meteoric rise in American society.

I presume you are both white males, as only white men would collectively group women, Jews, Muslims, Blacks, Hispanics, and Asians together and then call them a "minority" group without pretending to be at least slightly uneasy with the term.

I agree: adult entertainment's "continued expansion and development" is beyond question, what with the proliferation of pornography, escort services, massage parlors, sex instruction books/tapes, strip clubs, and the like. However, there is a blinding oversight I do not blame you for making, for if my presumption while reading your article is correct, it is in your own best interest to ignore. Nonetheless, it stands to say it is the worst kept secret in America that pornography is overwhelmingly a white man's habit, as is true of all the areas of adult entertainment, thereby conspicuously excluding the above mentioned members of your "minority" group. I also agree that arguments against pornography are filled with the "usual rhetoric and hyperbole"; however, the same can be said for the arguments for pornography, which is why I do tire of the 'free speech" defense.

The Socialist and Communist Parties in America practiced free speech for social reform; the local and federal unions for labor rights; the Black Panther Party to retaliate against mass lynchings and Jim Crow laws; radical women and homosexual movements for the dignity of their own bodies and choices. Every single one of these parties were censored almost incontestably and often to a fault: struck down by state and federal laws with outrageous fines and/or prison terms, if not hunted down, rounded up, and shot to death.

I wonder if you have read the "country's documented appetite for sexual fare." It will show the expanse and development indeed of the almost exclusively white male palate, still craving the "golden days" when they could freely and legally sexually exploit any member of their "minority" group, and so practice free speech for the right to be able to sexually fantasize about exploiting members of their "minority" group, since they are no longer freely and legally able to actually exploit them now.

It is obvious to anyone who has ever persued the adult video shelves that the hundreds of titles referring to "slant-eyed, chocolate colored, and over the border," are not meant for Asian, Black, and Hispanic men, as titles referring to "sluts, whores, bitches, wenches, and bi-girls and boys," are not meant for a female or homosexual audience. Indeed, if the "minority" were the major purchasers of porn, the battle for or against censorship would be obsolete. The rise (or fall, rather) of pornography and its staunch advocates would be yet another chapter in the history books of a defeated movement to "preserve and restore the moral fabric of this great and higher minded nation."

I chuckled to read your sincere shock at the absence of adult entertainment representation at the US Sentate Committee hearing. Unlike sports, television, and movie fans, how little if anything porn fans know about who and what is behind the scenes of their favorite form of recreation. Though there should be nothing shocking about a porn fan's willful ignorance when regarding the object of his affection...

I am not ignorant of pornography and the producers, directors, writers, and of course, the women in the industry. It was porn producers themselves who coined the "kings of sleaze," being quite proud of their grossly obscene and highly offensive material, as they will gladly tell you it is. A few articles and interviews can be found (they are not the most articulate men in the world, to be sure) and one I met in person echoes them all as he told me with a straight face that "Men are animals, and animals like to humiliate their prey, right? Women are the prey and they like to be preyed upon and they like to be humiliated, and that's what it's about." Another is quoted as saying that "Men are basically sick fucks, they like to watch sick fucks, and that's what I show. (laughing) I show sick fucks for sick fucks."

While being candid and honest, these are not the most sympathetic statements to present in defense of their industry, which is the sole reason they failed to appear at last month's US Senate hearing or any hearing for that matter. Their failure to appear, according to the AVN, was that nobody was notified in advance by the committee's staff. What the AVN (notorious for its omissions concerning the widespread drug, alcohol, physical and sexual abuse, veneral disease, fraud, racketerring, blackmail, and abduction that pollute an already dirty industry, because AVN is sponsored by (surprise) the porn producers) omits is that advance notice wouldn't have made any difference: they will fail to appear regardless, anywhere they may be asked to answer, because they know in advance what their answer will be. Unlike the legions of white men who buy and buy, these few white men don't tuck under their mattresses and sheepishly shuffle their feet about what they sell and sell. They trust you will defend them, time and time again. "If you have them by the balls, you have them by the minds, too."

In short, you are losers at your own game, no better than the "minority" you gleefully exploit, you are willing participants in your own degradation. Though the great "minority" group are not the only ones being sexually exploited by you at somebody else's expense, but other white men are just as ruthlessly exploiting you, too.

"But this legislative snubbing is indicative of a larger emerging problem whereby the government allows the viewpoints of a few to shape the national speech agenda for the whole, particularly on the topic of sex."

The monumentally stupid use of your closing statement could conclude the opposing side's point better than it concluded your own, I should think one of the two of you would have read that statement and realized what a galactic fumble was made.

For it is precisely the viewpoints of a few pornographers that the goverment allows to shape the national speech agenda for the whole, particularly on the topic of sex, and the "antipornography clan" is not going unchecked, but Hustler, Barely Legal, SexyChinaGirls, and GangBang#22 are.

Our national speech agenda for the whole now dictates the freedom to masturbate with unchecked abandon to white women, women of color and/or nationality, and gay men and women depicted in any given neighborhood, profession, background, or walk of life: in short, any individual among the "minority" group exploited, oppressed, and/or otherwise denigrated in this nation at one time or another. The freedom has extended to include depictions of mothers, sisters, wives of good friends, nieces, nephews, girls next door, to the "deliciously cute" elementary school age boys and girls who "teasingly" ride their bikes by your house.

I would strongly suggest to you, gentlemen, when it comes to your oh-so-precious freedom of speech and expression, that you bear in mind you have the freedom to speak and express yourself, you do not have the freedom to not be questioned or criticized for what and how you choose to speak and express yourself. So when called upon to answer as you can and inevitably will be, be very careful to avoid "the usual rhetoric and hyperbole" your opposition is prone to use as well. But you, in particular must be very, very, careful...

Unlike your opposition, gentlemen, your appetite is well-documented.

[ccarter84]

1. Wow, that's heavy reading man

Glad you feel so strongly um...against porn and for what white males call minorities, sadly porn isn't going away, it'll go deeper underground. What we need to do is be able to talk with our children and address the issues of sex and sexuality in a well presented manner that doesn't make women objects or men pervs--even if that is our 'natural' inclinations. Goodluck getting any faith sponsered initiative funding for that tho.
peace
-CC

[pnutchuck]

218. Agreed, especially with talking to your children about sex

I live in Paris, France now and sexuality is not the taboo as it is in the US. Commercials feature women's breasts and men's butts when trying to sell anything from soap to deoderant. They are not offended by nudity or the desire for sex.

When I lived in Bali pornography was illegal to rent, however, there were vendors. I always chose the French porn because it was always more beautiful, less about the penatration, and more about the sexuality.

Children in both countries are less concerned with the taboos because there are so few. They are extremely well rounded and not as sex crazed as American children.

[bobbobbins]

2. porn is cool

[Jesus H. Christ]

3. Yes. Sex is disgusting, isn't it?

I say we ban all forms of pornography. Hell, let's go one step further and make sure when women go in public they cover themselves from head to toe in thick blue cloth. We can never be too safe.

[SariesNightly]

6. There are people out there..

.. who are pretty sure they can get AIDS from masturbating, and they graduated from Bush's "celibacy is cool" government funded programs.

[Jesus H. Christ]

9. Absolutely. We should ban masturbating too.

Definitely should ban that and anything that should lead to masturbation.

Masturbation is evil and people who do it should be ashamed of themselves. There is something wrong with them. They're being racist when they masturbate too.

[shondradawson]

12. No.

You missed the whole point.

Your sarcastic remark that "sex is disgusting, isn't it?" is as unwarranted by my post as it is untrue. My post isn't about sex: it is about pornography.

As to the ridiculous suggestion that women should cover themselves from head to toe in thick blue cloth after banning all forms of pornography is only one step further toward the male point of view that women are somehow responsible for men's sexuality.

I find it interesting that it was never suggested that men should cover themselves from head to toe, wear chastity belts, or regard their virginity as precious.

What we need to be saved from, all of us, is the kind of individuals that would run from their own shadows...or for that matter, cover themselves with it and call it an expression.

I neither stand for nor against pornography.
Like drugs or alcohol, you use it or you don't.

[Jesus H. Christ]

16. But I'm agreeing with you.

Images of people having sex is sick and disgusting and people who watch it are a bunch of perverted racists and should be punished. Probably by stoning.

It should be banned, just like unamerican books like "Catcher in the Rye." And violent video games. And advertisements for birth control.

[InvisibleBallots]

170. wow, how clever

Really

[Nadienne]

224. Exploitation is disgusting.

Intimacy is beautiful. Sex is fun. Sex toys are a way to be more sexually creative.

Your comments remind me of the kind of slippery-slope arguments that rwers make. A new adult toy and novelty store opened in my area a few months ago. The city tried to stop it because it would "promote prostitution", etc, etc. They raised zoning issues and tried to cause all kinds of problems. Luckily, the city didn't succeed.

Disapproval of pornography is not necessarily disapproval of sex, btw.

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

365. wow - way to miss the point

the current type of pornography that's most prevalent out there is JUST as hateful to women as the tactics of the Taliban.

there IS porn out there that doesn't denigrate anyone and doesn't solely cater to a white male audience, but none of it is made by Hustler/Playboy/Vivid/etc (in fact, a lot of it is made by women). the amount of such pornography is also a drop in the bucket compared to the ocean of demeaning filth out there.

[bobbobbins]

4. im a white male, and im candid about my porn purchases

[tabasco]

77. That's terrible that you're buying porn !

Dude, there's so much free stuff out there. :)

[Syrinx]

5. white men are bad

Thanks for clearing that up.

[sui generis]

8. yes they should be spanked

locking, one . two . three

[donheld]

378. Locking

nine hundred ninety seven . nine hundred ninety eight . nine hundred ninety nine...

[shondradawson]

15. Is this intentional, the gross misreading of my post?

[InvisibleBallots]

30. I think so, yes shondradawson

I do think there is a lot of intentional misreading of your post. Many, many men consider pornography to be a fundamental human right, and any questioning of the industry will get a very nasty reaction.

Oh, and the racial angle cuts a little to close, too, WAY too close.

[Shakespeare]

32. Ahem. Many, many, many women enjoy porn, too.

That idiotic notion that men are the only ones who enjoy porn really needs to die a quick and helpful death.

[InvisibleBallots]

34. yes, they do

Many women do. The vast majority of porn is produced for and consumed by men. Unless you want to include racy novels and the like, then sure, it's probably even.

[PaulaFarrell]

178. not that many

in fact, very, very few.

[mongo]

332. No way

I own and operate a lingerie and adult boutique for a living. Lots of couples come in and shop for porn together. Still more are husbands looking for stuff to watch with the wife.

Repeat after me: It's only a movie. I am so sick of having to fight facsists on both the right and left.

[MaraJade]

490. Runs through, giggling. . .

:evilgrin:

I writes prOn...fanfiction, that is!

( http://adultfan.nexcess.net/aff/ )

[brainshrub]

45. Yes. Absolutely.

Porn is like "professional" wrestling. Everyone knows that the WWF fakes the fights. Yet there are some people so wrapped up about the negative effects of Hulk Hogan that they miss the point: Watching wrestling is supposed to be fun. It's a catatonic release from the mundane.

It's the same with porn.

One more thing: Just because you don't buy porn in the same shops as most black people do, doesn't man they don't watch as much of it.

[jdj]

89. yes, where is the assertion that porn is more commonly a white

man's habit coming from...I've never heard that at all, but if anyone has links, post 'em.

[American Tragedy]

116. Have studies have been done on demographics of porn consumers?

I'm curious.

[Eloriel]

157. Yes, fun

It's great fun getting off on the objectification, dehumanization, degradation and humiliation of others. Wonderful fun. Clean, wholesome, just what the doctor ordered, I'm sure.

It's ever so much fun when your culture -- thanks to a whole industry -- has conveniently convinced you that it IS good, clean fun without any ill effects and that, in fact, the people involved are happy, healthy, well-adjusted and ENJOY their degradation and humiliation (and indeed some of them do, but they're NOT healthy).

[pnutchuck]

221. Freedom of speech is still guaranteed in the constitution

and as long as women continue to seek fame through porn films, we will not be able to bring about a change. What everyone is forgetting is that it is "free will" baby! You want to stop porn? Then work with the people who are drawn to it! Porn is not inheritently bad. It is when people are forced into it through dire situations. You're not going to stop the porn kings, we need to make social changes to prevent women from being drawn to them!

[InvisibleBallots]

238. as if it's the women driving the porn industry?

I'm not surprised - the porn industry exists not to serve men, but because of all the ambitious porn starlets needing some way to get popular?

[pnutchuck]

244. You're missing my point

Many women are led into the industry as a guise for an opening into Hollywood. However, women are not without blame for falling for this ruse. As I stated before, there needs to be social change. We should not be blasting buyers, renters, or makers of porn, but the society that creates the need for porn and attracts future porn stars.

[InvisibleBallots]

410. so, women are to be blamed for being tricked into porn

since they are led into the industry as a guise for an opening in Hollywood?

[jdj]

87. don't forget you are on demographic underground.

this is a great place, and the admins can be greatly commended, but you've hit a demographic that probably precisely overlaps the demographic of porn's greatest consumers.

I think the issue is mental, not photographic, and it's religious too. One side effect of the rapture is that the porn industry could suffer a tremendous loss of revenue.

[sui generis]

7. Exploitation?

There have always been sex-workers, and there always will be.

Exploitation is much farther-reaching than the sex trade. In case anyone's forgotten at any given time there are over 19 million children forced to work in conditions equivalent or worse than slavery in developing countries, and they're not getting paid for it.

I am truly sick of hearing about sex as the be-all-end-all evil vice. People just need to get over it. If it wasn't so "forbidden" then you can be sure that "exploiting" the supposedly forbidden aspects of sex would be pretty boring. If we as humans weren't so sexually excited by "forbidden" fantasies and by depictions of exploitation of other humans, the industry would be pretty lame.

After you take away the "exploitation" factor, all you have left is exotic fantasy. So. What.

And if you took away the ability of some people to relentlessly obsess on sex, there would be some pretty bored people walking around trying to figure out what else they could piss and moan about 24/7.

[shondradawson]

17. Yes, exploitation

I could better respond to your comments if you actually made a point and not a few platitudes.

[sui generis]

134. there's nothing to respond to. We disagree.

And your use of the word "platitudes" seemed designed to irritate, in addition to being used erroneously.

There is regulation in the industry - and by and large it is enforced. Blaming consumers of pornography for causing "exploitation" is like blaming drug addicts for the drug trade. Until you outlaw addiction, instead of the drug itself, there will always be drug dealers, and that's a fact of life. Sorry if that was another duck billed platitude but so be it. It takes two to tangle - oops I did it again.

Yes there are some disgusting examples of pornography out there - but if you look hard enough you can find disgusting examples of ANYTHING, including extremist religion, corporate practice, political speech, personal worldviews, whatever. Why this crusade? What makes you the personal defender of every stupid "sex worker" who puts out on camera to pay the rent? How is what they do any different from a plumber or electrician?

When you pay an electrician to wire a fancy new dimmer switch for you, are you exploiting him/her?

[Artemis Bunyon]

393. Working at the bottom of a mine-shaft is exploitation.

Fucking on camera for money is an easy paycheck.

[pnutchuck]

222. Slavery is also a part of history, should we bring it back?

Most women don't go into the sex inustry because they want to! Most times it is because they have nothing else but their vagina to sell. Don't ever give me this BS that we WOMEN have always been available for sale!!!!

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

10. I've always noticed that it's usually those who hate porn

have an extensive knowledge of porn.
I wonder why?

(anyone smell something cooking?)

[shondradawson]

14. Read Carefully

Where in my post, pray tell, does it say that I hate porn?

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

22. To be fair you didn't say "I HATE PORN!" in your essay

But the language you chose to use is aggressive and condescending.
But I read the post, and I understand your position, based on the rhetoric you chose to use. It's clear to me.

(Edited for spelling)

[Artemis Bunyon]

394. Slavery is still with us.

Open your eyes and you will see it all around you. You're probably a slave, yourself.

[Medium Baby Jesus]

456. The Rock???? n/t

[InvisibleBallots]

11. the only peole who complain about porn are homophobic fundie wingnuts

oh, and Feminazis too! :eyes: - oh, and gay men don't like porn!

[shondradawson]

18. It is not a complaint: but a commentary

[jdj]

93. well the rub there is that fundies are some of porn's biggest consumers

and that goes for prostitution as well, I'm sure.

Please don't quote Limbaugh here, my dear friend, he doesn't deserve that kind of recognition from D.U..

The majority of porn with male subjects is made for men, so I couldn't tell whether your assertion about gay men was sarcasm or misinformation.

[pnutchuck]

226. Just because many women don't agree with porn

they are not "feminazis". That is not only out of line, but completely out of context! Nazis were people who exterminated other human beings in order to make a superior race. Feminists campaign for a stronger, more equal society that allows for women to exist within it. To combine the 2 words is, not only insulting, but without honerable intelligence.

[mongo]

336. Is it feminist to decide what other women are allowed to do

with their own bodies?

[Tsiyu]

435. Absolutely

No one said "outlaw porn" or "all women in flicks are being used."

But some are. Some are tricked or coerced into it. Many are treated and protected poorly. So are men in the industry, as far as that goes.

It is also feminist to speak up for them, even though society doesn't much give a damn about their plight.

[brainshrub]

13. All heterosexual men watch porn. It is the only stereotype that is true.

All of us: Men with hot girlfriends, Men with ugly girlfriends, Men with wives, Ugly men, attractive men, religious men, rich men, poor men. ALL MEN.

Every single man you have ever met, or will ever meet, actively watches porn.

That's right. Every. Single. Man.

If a man tells you he does not enjoy and watch porn, he is a liar and should not be trusted.

[Boosterman]

19. Hey speak for yourself

I dont really care for porn to be honest. I can take it or leave it. Now my wife loves it. Always has. I dont like them because of some moral reason actually its just they are so BADLY written. Just a decent story would probably be ok for me.

[brainshrub]

36. You take it.

And you'd take even more if your wife didn't give you an excuse to regularly watch porn.

[TankLV]

328. For the story - yeah - that's why I watch porn!

Wait - there's a "story" included?!?!?!

Damn that remote control!

[no name no slogan]

483. Not me-- I watch for the SOUNDTRACKS

Where would the wah-wah pedal industry be without pR0n?

waka-juwakawaka waka-juwakawaka waka-juwakawaka waka-juwakawaka waka-juwakawaka waka-juwakawaka waka-juwakawaka waka-juwakawaka waka-juwakawaka waka-juwakawaka waka-juwakawaka waka-juwakawaka waka-juwakawaka waka-juwakawaka etc.

[shondradawson]

23. Not all men

It is a unusual day when prostitutes, strippers, adult video sellers service colored men.

[Shakespeare]

27. That is just patently untrue.

And I'm sure some of the African-American men who post here will enlighten you in regard to that.

[HawkerHurricane]

83. Not that I'm a African American man...

merely a pasty white Irish descent...
But I served on warships with men of every possible variation of origin you can imagine.
All types watched porn.
All types purchased it.
All types traded it.
And all types derided it.

Porn is universal. Where there is pictures, there is pornagraphic ones. Where there is writing, there is pornagraphic writing.

If the majority of porn in America is purchased by white males, it's because the majority of men in America is white.

[shondradawson]

330. I'm still waiting to be enlightened....(chuckle)

and for that matter, my orignal post (is reading comprehension not taught in school, anymore?)never said "all white men", but the "overwhelming majority of white men" are consumers.

[donheld]

379. In case you didn't know it

the "overwhelming majority" of american men are white men. If you lived in any sizable city and paid attention to places that sell porn, you'd know that many many black and hispanic men participate too.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Uzybone]

72. Nonsense

I guarentee you the amount of black/hispanic/asian porn watchers is directly proportional to the population.

[foo_bar]

118. you must think a "ho" is a snack cake

Never been to Brooklyn or Camden, eh?

[mongo]

337. The county I live in is 14% black

and I'd have to say that at least 14% of my customers are black. Gasp, there's a black man in my store right now - browsing movies.

[Chovexani]

342. Are you for real?

My god, that has to be one of the biggest loads of horseshit I've ever read on DU, and I've been here damn near four years so that is saying a lot.

Do you even know any "colored" men? Because if you did you'd realize spankin' it is about as universal a hobby as you will find among humanity. I really hope this is just willful ignorance on your part and not some kind of noble savage bullshit you're trying to run over here...because if that's the case, well, you can take that time machine right back to 1950 and don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out, 'kthnx.

[Medium Baby Jesus]

457. That's pure bullshit

Could you post your source for this? Every type of person buys porn. I know from personal exper... never mind

"colored"? :wtf:

[Phillycat]

478. Pardon me, did you say "colored men"?

[InvisibleBallots]

24. do all gay men watch porn as well?

I wonder?

[Touchdown]

38. Pretty much, yeah.

Gay porn doesn't exploit women, unless you can find some Rube Goldberg non-sequitor to blame gay porn or their $3000 a scene "exploitation" for that too. Oh' yeah, only the white gay men do that. Thanks for reminding me of my place as permanent perpetrator, even if I'm gay. :eyes:

EDIT: Sorry, some of my comments are meant for the original poster. I tend to blab a lot. Porn must be to blame for that as well.

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

368. it would be pretty stupid to claim that gay porn exploits women, but

most of the gay porn I've seen does tend to stick the small "pretty boy" in the position of "the bitch," then proceed with the regularly scheduled denigration/abuse. when you can tell that the guy in question is NOT enjoying having TWO c***s forced inside him...that's not my idea of harmless fun.

apparently in porn, no sex occurs unless there's a power differential to take advantage of.

[brainshrub]

39. Since I am not gay, I am not qualified to answer that question.

But we hetros had a meeting last month, and we all agreed that we all watch porn. Down to the last man.

[thom1102]

272. Gay Porn is a $1 Billion dollar industry...

Almost the same as the straight community and we only comprise 10% of the population. Most of it is gay male porn, but lesbian porn produced by lesbians for lesbians is a growing market.

There are people in the porn industry who exploit women, that is true, but not everyone does. As has been said numerous times already, the problem is with societies puritanical views on sex and sexuality, feeding a guilt and shame about sex which drives the desire for porn. The porn industry is just fulfilling that need. If you want to get rid of porn, then change society. If you want to clean up the porn industry, to eliminate the explotative aspect of it, and to get rid of the drugs and sexual, and physical abuse, then that is a horse of a different color.

[Chelsea Patriot]

57. Oh, Please....

There is not a gay man who doesn't watch porn.

It's freezing here in Manhattan and right now I'm going out in the cold to rent porn...two for one night.

All men love porn.

And, I do love reading anti-porn screeds.

"Oh, Mary, You're so camp!"

[InvisibleBallots]

60. I would certainly agree that the majority of men

straight, gay, and other, are going to watch porn if they have easy access to it. I'm also not so naive to believe that the films you watch, the music you listen to, and the books you read - the culture you engage in - doesn't has an effect on your attitudes.

If someone watches FOX all day long, is it going to affect their attitude towards liberals? Is someone who spends time in a fundie church listening to anti-gay propaganda going to have their attitudes affected by it? What about a straight man who watches porn that degrades women? Will that have an effect on their attitude?

Some women are complaining about the porn industry - let's stop jacking off for a moment and listen to what they have to say, okay?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

126. Well

Some women are complaining about the porn industry - let's stop jacking off for a moment and listen to what they have to say, okay?



How about gay porn or transgendered porn?


What group is opposed to that?

[CTLawGuy]

250. how do you know

that people dont watch fox BECAUSE they hate liberals, or listen to anti-gay preachers because they hate gays?

[arcos]

65. actually I have a friend who hates porn...

He finds it disgusting... but he's pretty much the only one I know.

[transeo]

82. You should check his computer

I bet there is porn on there, he just doesn't want to admit it. ;-)

[arcos]

95. You are probably right...

Probably he just doesn't admit it :P

[mitchtv]

213. probably more than straights

more mainstream in the gay community

[TankLV]

313. Yes - every single one of us.

Or - to put it another way

There is not a single gay man who hasn't watched porn.

[Kingshakabobo]

383. Only a 101% of us. n/t

[Hello_Kitty]

26. Well then I must date women

Because I swear I've dated more than one guy who had absolutely no interest in it. And I know for a fact they didn't because I spent a lot of time with them, even lived with one. He and I used to joke about the fact that I had the bigger porn collection b/c I actually owned 2 adult videos while he had none.

[brainshrub]

40. You don't need to own porn to enjoy it.

Why do you think there are video-booths in adult shops? In an age of $35 DVD players, why would any man opt to masturbate at the store instead of at home?
The answer: Men like your ex use them.

Why do you think the internet was created?
The answer: So men would not get caught with the offending material.

As Jesus said in the book of Jon: "Verily, I say unto ye... all men enjoy watching porn."

[InvisibleBallots]

50. brainshrub knows more about your boyfriend than you do, ccbombs

brainshrub has "Porndar" and he knows all men enough to make blanket statements about their porn habits.

You see, brainshrub likes porn, and all his friends like porn, therefore, all men like porn. Simple logic! :)

[brainshrub]

55. Exactly.

All men like porn.

If a man on the brink of starvation is given a choice between a cruchy taco and watching porn, he will always choose the porno.

[InvisibleBallots]

58. you may have OCD

Porn can often become habit forming, and trigger something like OCD. If you were starving, and chose porn over food, that a clear indication that you have a health problem. I believe they have drugs that can help.

[brainshrub]

62. Anything can become habit-forming.

That's why they are called "habits." Or maybe those men have to much Erotoxin in their blood from all the porn?

[ashmanonar]

68. or they do a porn AND taco night, as they did many times in college my

freshman year...its either porn and tacos or porn and fried chicken...

[ret5hd]

78. dont ever go to the porn and cheetos nite...

orange EVERYWHERE!

[sadiesworld]

52. Not true.

My husband of eight years does not watch porn. There is no way he could watch it w/o me knowing. He is either at work (he would never risk the job he loves) or with me.

Moreover, there is no reason he would hide it from me. We discussed porn when we were dating (I was fairly noncommittal on the subject) and he said he found it degrading to women and didn't care for it.

I don't profess to be sure about many things, but I am sure of this.

I can't imagine that he is the only one.

(And no, we're not fundies)

[0rganism]

113. "There is no way he could watch it w/o me knowing."

This is an interesting statement. I suppose it could be true. You know him well, and I don't know him at all. Yet for some reason, it invites speculation. How is it possible that every action he takes throughout the day could be so closely monitored by you that even stopping off at an adult bookstore for 10 minutes on the way back from his lunchbreak would be transparent?

Maybe you two have a hyperactive sex life, at least once per day, or belong to a swingers' club. Either one could obviate any desire for porn. Or maybe he has low testosterone. That could potentially provide a basis for your contention. If you lived in a repressive society like Saudi Arabia where porn would be much harder to come by (pardon the expression) that would also be a possible rationale. However...

> there is no reason he would hide it from me.

Yet there is! You described it yourself:

> We discussed porn when we were dating (I was fairly noncommittal on the subject)

You were "noncomittal" while you were dating, and to the fragile male psyche that means, "She doesn't like it." Men are conditioned to believe that (a)masturbation is shameful and (b)women find porn disgusting. And of course he likes you tons, why else would you be dating, so maybe he says,

> he found it degrading to women and didn't care for it

because he believed it was what you wanted to hear. Furthermore, through perceived disapproval, then and now, you may have put him in a position where he simply cannot level with you about any porn that he does fancy, now or in the future. He as much as admitted to you then that he viewed porn at one time or another; what makes you so very sure that he doesn't indulge in it occasionally even now? Even if it were true, the seven-year mark in a marriage is usually the time when people get to be pretty comfortable with the situation they have in their marriages, certain of how the partner will act in different situations. That's when the experimenting starts. Just because he didn't watch porn yesterday doesn't mean he won't watch it tomorrow.

But what if you want to be sure? Rent a porn video yourself and ask him to watch it with you. Pretend it turns you on. See how he reacts. See how you react. See if it changes anything. I think you might be in for a surprise.

But heck, I shouldn't question. In the end, I don't even want to know the answers, it's getting far too personal already. I'll just put in a kind word for the guy: IF you ever found out that he isn't the saint you imagine him to be -- or are 100% sure he is, there's no practical difference -- it's not because he doesn't love you. Watching porn really has nothing to do with love. Love is a complex entity born of higher brain functions, something to which pornography seldom if ever aspires.

[sadiesworld]

156. You should have stopped with "and I don't know him at all".

When we were dating, I was the one to bring up the subject of porn. I was not negative, naive, nor dismissive. He said that he had the usual porn-watching experiences when younger (he was 34 when we met) but was ultimately "turned off" by porn.

I don't attempt to monitor him, I simply know where he is at virtually any given moment. (In fact, he wishes I called him at work more often to break up his day.) The idea of him going to an adult bookstore on his lunch-break is laughable. He only goes out to lunch about twice a month and then only with two other men from his office. Trust me, these men who have a semi-formal relationship, and only socialize outside work once a year (holiday dinner with wives), are not tripping off to an XXX shop after downing their burgers.

I have no desire to divulge the details of our sex life but suffice it to say it is fairly typical. I make that assessment based on previous relationships and "girl-talk" with friends.

I don't think he is a "saint" because he doesn't watch porn (nor does he) and if he wanted to watch an x-rated DVD, I'm down with that. In fact, last night I told him about this thread and asked him if he was intereseted in getting a porn movie sometime. He said no. He DID seem a bit concerned that he was somehow an odd duck because he doesn't care for pornography (LOL).

I see you are having a tough time getting your mind around the idea that there are some men who don't watch porn, but it is true. :shrug:

[double_helix]

252. We are telling you the truth but you don't want to accept it

Starting from puberty, men think about sex with most of the females in their lives: the girls they go to school with, the teachers, the girls they pass on the way home, the girls on TV..

Males throughout the animal kingdom are basically the same: we crave sex with a variety of females, but usually only the alpha male is able to actually carry that out.

Men aren't wild beasts, but we aren't naturally monogamous either, or even close to it. Monogamy (or close to it) is the ideal of women, not men.

When men fall in love we do only want object of our love - but that doesn't last a lifetime. Passonate romantic love only lasts about 5-7 years, if so long. After that, the thoughts of casual sex with other women come right back into the man's head, but most men love their wives/girlfriends in a mature enough way to choose the relationship over sex.

Every man - except if he is in deep, passionate love -- watches some porn and is lying if he says he doesn't, or abnormal in some way if he actually doesn't.

And being a fan of porn isn't just someone who is obsessed with it and has no life; that is the false stereotype. The majority of non-obsessed, casual porn fans get it from the internet; much of it is free and easily accessible. This is because the porn providers make some of their content free for advertising purposes, to allow potential customers to preview the material before they buy; it is a free sample.

So even if a guy is only visiting a softcore site once in a while to see the new previews - he is still a consumer of pornography. This is what the new porn customer looks like - not the stereotype you are thinking of. He is a normal guy who just wants to see some naked, pretty girls - just like guys throughout history have always done. It has just been updated for the 21st century.

[InvisibleBallots]

260. sorry, you are just wrong

"Every man - except if he is in deep, passionate love -- watches some porn and is lying if he says he doesn't, or abnormal in some way if he actually doesn't."

I'm sorry, but a man who does not watch porn is not "abnormal" in any way shape nor form. Talk about a false stereotype.

[MaraJade]

491. Agree

It is entirely possible that this man doesn't care for porn. There are some people that simply don't like it. Has nothing whatsoever to do with the state of the relationship they're in. Their dislike doesn't necessarily mean that they are so in rapture with whomever they are with that they wouldn't look at another person either. It simply means that porn isn't to their taste.

[shondradawson]

346. Speaking of truths you don't want to accept....

Monogamy is not the ideal of women.

Pray tell us the point in history when women had the power and influence to assert their ideals onto men?

Monogamy and marriage are MALE institutions: given the conditions that monogamy and marriage placed women under, what woman would have wanted it?

Please do not insult males from the animal kingdom by aligning them with human males: but if you must, bear in mind that human females are the only females on the planet earth that are not promiscuous. Males in the animal kingdom did not create a patriarchal society that suppressed their sexuality and liberties of their females.

1 and 1 makes 2.

Passionate romantic loveis a male institution, too, as it is men who insisted on cornering the rules of courtship. As for how long it lasts, men cornered that, too, which is how monogamy and marriage were created, to FORCE the women THEY CHOOSE AGAINST HER WILL to love them forever.

But if you really and incredibly believe being traded for a horse and some cattle to a man twice your age you barely know to be raped and beaten at his will, being denied work, education, so you can bear and raise his children without ever venturing 100 feet from his home lest you "ruin his property" with (gasp!another man)was the ideal for women, it is no wonder you don't find a lot of pornography degrading to women.

Your lack of knowledge into women's, and for that matter, men's history is almost criminal considering how you assert "truths."

[Tsiyu]

369. Women don't think about sex at all

Never. Not ever.


Why, oh why do men talk to me about their experience of being human as if I, too, were not a human?

Why? Goddamn it. Why?

[donheld]

380. Welcome to DU double_helix

:hi:

What an introduction to DU you seem to have had. The Porn Flame out. I have no idea whether or not this woman's hubby watches porn or not. I think there are a few men who can leave porn alone. I suspect most of these men have a constant fight to leave it alone, maybe they just have a very low sex drive, or just maybe their wife/partner keeps them worn out enough they don't need porn. I do know the majority of men, black, white, asian, gay, straight, whatever think about sex about the biggest part of the day.

[phylny]

274. Yes, it is true.

I know three men in my own family who, either because of religious beliefs, or other reasons, do not watch porn.

I will add that I don't honestly care one way or the other, but I HAVE seen two marriages of friends of mine that were destroyed due to the husbands' porn addictions.

One of my friends said that the more her husband watched (mostly on the Internet), the more he wanted to replicate what he saw, and what he saw was degrading. She, a beautiful, lusty, fun-loving woman, would have no part of it.

[ProfessorGAC]

135. Not All!

And, you should never call anyone a liar, especially if you don't know them.

I've seen stag films, and i've seen Caligula, I Am Curious, and Deep Throat, but to understand what the buzz was about. None were particularly moving, and i thought the sex was gratuitous, not important.

I have not seen a porn of any type since i was 25 (Caligula), and that was over 23 years ago. I'm not interested, i don't get the attraction to it, and that is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH!

Of course, if you don't want to TRUST me, that's fine! I don't care if i'm trusted by someone with such a small mind that they make generalizations as your sweeping nonsense.
The Professor

[InvisibleBallots]

172. you must be lying!

All my friends watch porn, therefore, you must watch porn too - or else you are lying!!! :eyes:

[WoodrowFan]

174. I always lie about porn

it's too hard to watch standing up!

[NashVegas]

181. Caligula

If I'd seen that at a young enough age, I'd have never watched porn again. That was AWFUL.

[ProfessorGAC]

197. Great Idea; Poorly Executed

The Professor

[WoodrowFan]

203. did it follow the book??

seriously, there was a novelization! A sex in lit class when I was in college used it.

[conflictgirl]

322. I don't think so

My husband doesn't. But I do.
He has my blessing to actively view porn. He doesn't despise it or anything, it just doesn't especially excite him one way or the other. I don't believe he's a liar or untrustworthy and I think he would be pretty displeased to be painted with such a broad brush.

[4_TN_TITANS]

20. It's not going to go away......

Because so many married white family men like myself enjoy a safe alternative to the wife that I've been with for 15 years. There are things that I like that she won't wear and things I'd like to do that she doesn't. There's a niche out there for every unsatisfied fetish (and those aren't going away either). As long as one can differentiate between the real and the scripted world of porn, what's the problem? Eventhough we don't have to act like it, I agree that us men are animals driven by an inescapable instinct for sex. It's in the programming, stupid!!!

[benburch]

21. Bullshit.

I defy you to tell this to Nina Hartley, Annie Sprinkle, Candye Kane, or any of the other very strong, very together women I personally know who are or have been part of the porn industry in the last 30 years.

As morally offended as you might be by pornography, that moral outrage does not equal experience with it first hand, or permit you to diminish the real lives of real women who have been there, done that, and didn't feel exploited in the slightest.

You offend me.

[shondradawson]

28. (sigh) read carefully

Where does it say that I am morally offended by pornography?

What with all the replies posted and not one of them as addressed my post according to WHAT IT SAYS.

This is exactly why discussion and debate are dying forces of change in our society.

Please, someone, ANYONE, go paragraph by paragraph and READ my post, my words first, then allow me to read your words.

I promise that I will read them, understand your point of view, before I enforce mine.

I, too, have known women in the porn industry.
I know women in America.
Shall we stop fighting for equal rights because a few women feel they have them? So why should we discredit the real abuses in and around the porn industry because a few women say it is fine?

[benburch]

33. You will find very few who have been in porn who say otherwise.

Yes, there are some who think they were ill-used. But I certify to you that I can find you people who feel equally ill-used in any industry.

I read your post. Word by word. If you thought you were communicating a different message than the one everybody here received, then you need to hone your skills at the Queen's English!

[InvisibleBallots]

66. false

I know many women who have been in porn and the sex industry that have little good to say about it. I do know they won't be trotted out by the porn corporations as spokespeople.

[benburch]

79. Well, I'm not a porn spokesperson, if you were implying that.

I am a sexworker's rights activist.

I got into this years ago out of my AIDS activism.

I have met and talked to many people who are or have been sexworkers.

Note that I am NOT saying that it is a wonderful job.

It is a crappy job.

It is a dangerous job.

It is made crappy and dangerous largely because of the laws against it, though. (And here I refer to all types of sexwork.)

Some people wind up hating it.

Some leave it behind them as just a job they didn't care for.

A few have very fond memories of it.

All that I knew entered into it as adults making a free choice.

I believe that an adult ought to have the right to control one's body. Along with that right is the right to consent to sex with another adult for any reason whatsoever, including consideration of payment received for providing that consent.

The alternatives, legal prohibition or statist regulation, give the State control over the reproductive organs of its adult citizens, which thought disgusts me.

[Eloriel]

158. There is actually another option

But I'm not surprised it didn't occur to you.

And that is that we become enlightened enough as a culture so that the sex industry is seen for what it is, we develop truly healthy sexuality, and the sex industry dies on the vine.

And don't give me any "that'll never happen." Of course it will never happen when people insist that it won't and therefore don't bother to work towards it.

I find it truly disappointing that you call yourself a sexworkers' rights activists and cannot see the exploitation inherent in the entire industry, whether the workers themselves are willing and able to see it or not. Very, very disappointing.

[benburch]

243. And I find you equally disappointing.

First, even if there were no organized "sex industry" there would be pornography.

My proof? The hundreds of people I know who are in "alternative lifestyles" who regularly videotape themselves and trade the tapes with others who do the same. Not a dime exchanged. Not "power over" relationship. They do it because it is a turn-on to them to both make the films and to watch other's films.

I think pornography is a healthy expression of sexuality, generally, even though there is porn I don't think is particularly healthy. Then again, I don't think Rob Zombie's violent horror movies are particularly healthy, either, though I wouldn't condemn the whole of Hollywood for them!

The only reason "It will never happen" is because you are simply wrong about the psychological roots of pornography!

Second, many of us are trying as hard as we can to help society develop an enlightened attitude towards sexuality. Annie Sprinkle's work is all about doing just that.

Finally, yes, I CLEARLY see the exploitation in the industry. Just as I can CLEARLY see the exploitation in the garment industry, or the food service industry, or any other industry where unionization has not yet taken hold. Remember that next time you buy clothing or eat a burger at a fast food restaurant. If sexual exploitation is in some way special to you, factor in the fact that it occurs in those very industries! When I was in college, I worked at a fast food place where the manager used to extort sex out of the female employees in return for their keeping their $2.50 an hour jobs! Is that inherently less degrading than being paid $1500 a scene for a porn film as many in the LA porn industry make?

No, you can attempt to shame me, but it doesn't work because I do know my field very, very well. I have been doing this since 1993, and have considered every point you and others here have mentioned.

I am in this fight because I believe that people are mostly degraded in sexwork because of the laws against it. Police regularly rape sexworkers who then have no recourse to the police or courts to find justice. The laws prevent working in an apartment or fixed address, and thus encourage unsafe streetwalking. The laws against prostitution are enforced punitively. I know one woman who was arrested for running a brothel, and who spent ten years in a Texas jail, where she suffered abuse at the hands of the guards, and developed cancer which was treated incompetently. Why? Because she refused to help the prosecutor set up his political rivals with a prostitution bust.

Get your filthy laws off my body.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

489. Wow. Great post. Very informative.

I didn't think I'd find anything worth reading in this thread but you definitely shed a lot of light on the "choice" aspect of porn I was never sure about.
Thanks!

[double_helix]

255. How do we define "healthy sexuality" ?

Who gets to define that ? The pop-psychoanalysts ? Oprah ? Katie ? Dr. Phil ?

And I don't ask that as someone who believes reality has no inherent structure and that everything is a matter of opinion, but as someone who believes in hard science, that there are objective truths.

My opinion: Western women have had far too much say in defining what is right and wrong in terms of social and sexual behavior.

Science is the only way to objectively figure out what is healthy and what is not. And (real) science tells us that men tend toward polygyny and females toward monogyny; that men and women have different psychological makeups and approach everything (especially sex) differently; that we evolved this way because we are not allies but really "friendly" competitors in a battle of genetic proliferation. A woman's reproductive strategy benefits her offspring and her gender genetically; a man's benefits his offspring and his gender genetically. It would so follow that men and women have vastly different ideas on what constitues "healthy" sex.

[booley]

262. actually humans are more like Birds

First of all, your statement about men like polygnay and women like monagamy really isn't that simple.

For one, there are plenty of men and women that work quite well with monogamy.

And two, when you do get sexual cheaters, it crosses gender lines. Women cheat too. it's just psychologicaly women seem to have somewhat different strategies and motives (in an evolutionary kind of way)

men do want to spread thier genes around. That;s true. But so do women. But they also have to raise thier offspring. BUT many women also know on some level that what makes a good sperm doner doesn't necessarily make a good father. So like in many bird species, human women have been known to cheat, getting pregnant with a sexually desirable man but choosing the more down to earth and boring guy as the one she marries to raise her kids with.

I remember the studies that showed while women were often attracted to the hyper-macho bad boy, that kind of guy was rarely the one that they wanted to settle down with.

Now granted, this doesn't mean all women do this or even that women conscienously go through this kind of thought proccess. Human sexuality is a spectrum. and diversity happens to be one of our survival traits.

[double_helix]

263. Agree. We are of the same line of thinking, i.e. neo-Darwinism,

which makes much more sense (as hard science always does) than the Freudian psycho-babble which currently has a chokehold on our culture.

The truth about human behavior is tied to the truths about evolution: every organism and every behaviorial/psychological system is a result of natural selection - especially mating strategies.

[booley]

273. it's even more complicated then that

becuase we are the only species that can subvert it's own genetics.

From helping the handicapped that would normally die to genetic engineering to simply making a choice.

Not to say that our evolutionary history doesn't mean anyhting.

But when we are aware of the forces at work on us, our ability to make a good choice increases.

[phylny]

275. Oh. My. God.

"My opinion: Western women have had far too much say in defining what is right and wrong in terms of social and sexual behavior."

[bloom]

278. Really

I wonder where he came from. Some cave, I guess. Perhaps he created a different identity because he wanted to say what he really thought (and knew it was ridiculous).

[phylny]

282. Thank you.

I couldn't articulate it as you did, because I was filled with disbelief, along with a bit of sympathy for the dude.

edited to add this thought:

Why do guys get married at all if they want to have sex with lots of women? Are women that powerful? Are we that conniving?

Want to have sex with 10,000 women because it's in your biological makeup? Go ahead. Just don't get married.

[WoodrowFan]

290. wwhat men want

"what men really want is just to lie in front of the fire and have their wives rub their tummies"

I don't remember where I read that, but it reminds me that what I really enjoy in lie, what makes me happy, is being with my wife, just the two of us, and not having to DO anything, just to be.


sorry, got a little sentimental there for a second.. sure I look, I have fantasies, but trade it for the real thing? pshaw. I also fantasize about what I'd do with a million dollars but I don't waste my money on lottery tickets.

[Tsiyu]

372. Yes, and we're going back to those caves any day now

The Honda's getting sold. I'll use a horse for transportation.

And forget Kroger. I'm going to hack rabbits to death in the woods and collect berries.

Why not? The primitive must rule. It is scientifically proven to explain everything about us, so I'm gonna go all the way and be primitive!

Oh. What? It's freakin' 2004? Damn! Who the fuck knew! Now, I know a dozen men who whine to me about how they can't meet any quality women, but they spend more time watching porn than they do with actual women so how would they know? But you're right. They shouldn't have to evolve in any way. Even if their lives improve!

Science as you utilize it wouldn't move us forward very far. But maybe some folks like to stay "old fashioned."

i like to be "hip" ( I am SO laughing at my self) and say women think about sex and enjoy sex every bit as much as men, with or without the tribal hierarchy.

[double_helix]

390. The same human who left those caves is biologically

the same human who is alive today, who created civilization, who has a sense of ethics.

Society hasn't created an ethical man; an innately ethical man has created society.

The fatal flaw in your thinking - and in the thinking of all who fear evolution and science - is that social constructs - be it religion, political or otherwise are what is keeping man civilized.

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

There are still cultures around the world who live in hunter/gatherer societies very much like the first humans did - and they have ethics. They have the same need for ethics and morality in their cultures that we do today in an advanced civilization. When all is said and done, man will choose the more ethical, uplifting path - I have faith in that. After all, we live in a relatively free country, something not thought possible just a few hundred years ago.

I agree with your basic sentiment that we can't just give into all of our biological desires. The fact is, we have tons of evolutionary baggage, but we also have ethics and higher thinking - also a result of evolution, which we need to guide us.

I agree with monogamous relationships - without it civilization would've never happened, which we can thank the female for. By selecting the type of male who was less agressive, more thoughtful and nurturing, it ensured a better survival rate for the child - and the human species.

My disagreement with the anti-porn activists is as follows:

1. It is a Constitutional right to consume porn, as long as it was made by consenting adults. Nobody has the right to invade another citizen's privacy, even if they morally disapprove (which is what this is about - morality) of what that private citizen does in private.

2. The vast majority of porn consumption isn't about not being able to get a real partner, it is about pleasure and release. The sex one has in a relationship is completely different from that which takes place in porn. Yes, it's true -- average guys like to see pretty girls "get fucked" - there I said it. But the average girl doesn't like to "get fucked", she likes to "make love". And making love is great for a guy while he's in deeply in love with his special girl, but the type of sex guys naturally like is "fucking". There, I said it again.

3. Males in relationships are not bad people for having sexual thoughts about other women. It is natural. I know guys of every age group and type who do. This is not to say that it is right to overindulge, become obsessed, or to live in a fantasy world. It is also natural for men in relationships to consume some type of porn (which could be very softcore porn, e.g. Playboy, - don't assume "porn" means hardcore) to indulge those fantasies. Much of the porn men consume is not something they personally seek out, but it could be laying around at a friend's house, it could be browsing through magazines at the newsstand, it could be receiving a few emailed pictures. It is wrong to consume porn if the significant other is opposed to the viewing of porn, i.e. if she feels hurt/offended by it. It is wrong/disrespectful to lust longingly after other women, or to steer at other women right in front of the significant other.

Maybe I'm too young (early 30's), but none of the women I've been close to -either friend or intimate- were ever offended by the mild/casual consumption of porn. It is part of mainstream culture in today's world. Much of the porn is produced by younger people now - it is not how it used to be, where most of the movies were made by old creepy guys for old creepy guys. It is part of youth culture, just take "Girls Gone Wild" for example, it is made by a young guy. And there are many, many minorities and women involved. I am a minority and I've never had the sense that modern porn was bigoted/racist in any way. "Degrading" maybe - but those involved in making/viewing it agree on it being "degrading"; after all, it is "fucking", not romance. There so many minorities who produce their own stuff, so many sub-genres out there for minorities. Ten years ago guys like me were complaining that all the porn was "too white and the girls were too skinny" - that is not the case now.

I don't know, I just don't understand why there are always people out there who want to ruin good people's fun, to take away or censor something they don't understand.

But if the Democrats ever do ally themselves with the anti-porn forces - it would be the biggest disaster for them since their anti-gun radicalism of the 1990s, which cost them dearly in 2000 and is still costing them. I'm not a gun guy, but I know that legislating away vice never works - it only makes people angry at you. And it's not just going to be the "horny, old white men" who fight back: it will be young straight men and women and minorities and gay men who the Dems and liberals are at risk of alienating this time around.

Trust me, the right wing will never seriously try to outlaw or censor porn - they are too smart for that. Falwell can scream all he wants, it's not going to happen because of the GOP's ties to business. But the Dems, who are traditionally the party against big business and for feminist causes have very little in their way. It is more likely that they will be the party to do something stupid. I'm an independent and don't really care about the long term health of these major political parties, but I do care about my right to privacy and the right to live the type of lifestyle I choose, no matter who disapproves of it.

[Nadienne]

402. You're right: rwers won't try to censor or ban porn.

It makes too much money for them.

from: http://www.pornnomore.com/CorpPornProfit.htm

"EchoStar Communications, the second largest satellite provider (heavily backed by Rupert Murdoch--a member of the papal equestrian order, the Knights of St. George) outdoes Playboy in the sex-business says the Times."

I'd heard that Rupert Murdoch made a lot of profits from porn, but I wasn't sure where I'd heard it, so I did a google search... True, he's probably not directing porn or actively involved in porn. But he's not likely to try to harm his profits. The industry is profitable for him just the way it is...

[bloom]

403. As long as you are being honest...

"Yes, it's true -- average guys like to see pretty girls "get fucked" - there I said it. But the average girl doesn't like to "get fucked", she likes to "make love". And making love is great for a guy while he's in deeply in love with his special girl, but the type of sex guys naturally like is "fucking". There, I said it again."


Would you say that "average guys" like to see women "get raped"? How about being urinated on - do they like to see that also? Beaten?

Because that is what this is really about.

[double_helix]

426. Of course not, the average guy does NOT like seeing rape

or any of the more extreme material.

"Regular" porn is fundamentally the same as it's always been: vaginal/oral/anal/mammary sex with pretty, young (legal aged) women. The girl is usually playing the role of a submissive "slut" who "wants it bad", who performs in very "degrading", submissive positons. The most extreme things that take place are group sex and facial ejaculation. In regular porn, there is never any sense that the woman is scared; that would be a gigantic turn-off to the average viewer, who likes to see the woman smiling, moaning with pleasure, enjoying herself, i.e. the girl who "likes it".

The rape, urination and BSDM is on the far end of the spectrum - a niche category. It's disgusting and offensive to the average porn customer. But who are we to tell them what to watch ? As long as consenting adults are involved in the making of these movies there's nothing anyone can or should do about it. This is the rather small price we pay for living in a free society. Regulate/censor them and it is a very slippery slope until the government is regulating everything considered "degrading". Anti-porn activists will argue that rape is illegal. But we see illegal acts on TV shows everyday -including murder - of course not graphically, but only because TV is a public medium. The government would have a very difficult time trying to make an argument for censoring what private, law abiding citizens consume in the privacy of their own homes. Like I said, it's the price we pay for living in America. The fringe elements are the sewers/gutters along side the road of a free society, enabling it to function.

[bloom]

440. "But who are we to tell them what to watch?"

I think the acceptance of violent and degrading porn is a point where most men and most women differ. It would be interesting to see a poll. It would be nice to see a good percentage a men who see violent porn as not acceptable. From what I have read of feminists "defending" porn - they stop short of defending violent and degrading porn.

(I am, of course talking about heterosexual porn - if gays have a problem with porn - I think the issues would be different.)

Jensen sees mainstream porn as getting increasingly violent and degrading. And believes that people should find it unacceptable.

From:http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/pornography&cruelty.htm

"Contemporary mainstream heterosexual pornography raises the question: Why do some men find cruelty to women either sexually neutral or sexually pleasurable?

Feminist research into, and women’s reflection upon, experiences of sexual violence long ago established that rape involves the sexualization of power, the fusing in men’s imaginations of sexual pleasure with domination and control. The common phrase “rape is about power, not sex” misleads; rape is about the fusion of sex and domination, about the eroticization of control....

So, there’s nothing surprising in the observation that some pornography includes explicit images of women in pain. But a healthy society would want to deal with that, wouldn’t it? And from my research, both through these content analysis projects and my reading of material from the industry, it seems clear that mainstream heterosexual pornography is getting more, not less, cruel. A healthy society would take such things seriously, wouldn’t it?

We live in a culture in which rape and battery continue at epidemic levels. And in this culture, men are masturbating to orgasm in front of television and computer screens that present them sex with increasing levels of callousness and cruelty toward women. And no one seems to be terribly concerned about this. Right-wing opponents of pornography offer a moralistic critique that cannot help us find solutions, because typically they endorse male dominance, albeit not these manifestations of it. Some segments of the feminist movement, particularly the high-theory crowd in academic life, want us to believe that the growing acceptance of pornography is a sign of expanding sexual equality and freedom. Meanwhile, feminist critics of pornography have been marginalized in political and intellectual arenas. And all the while, the pornographers are trudging off to the bank with bags of money."

-------

you wrote:"Anti-porn activists will argue that rape is illegal..."

I don't think acted for TV versions of rape in anyway justifies rape being depicted in porn. Because what is happening in porn is not just an illusion (there may be some things that are illusions - like illusions of murdering the women - but that doesn't make the whole thing an illusion). If anything - some porn could be considered evidence of a crime. It would be like if people actually robbed a bank as part of a movie and then claimed that it was legal to do so because it was part of a movie (and protected by 1st amendment rights).

It sounds like you are suggesting that if TV were not a public medium that fights/violence would not be illusions - but actual violence. But society does not tolerate the idea of violence done for the purpose of a TV show OR movie. They even have notices that animals were not hurt in the making of ___ show or movie. (IOW - animals have more rights than women).

[naryaquid]

453. ..You made an interesting comment....why is the "girl" in the "regular"

sex you describe, considered a "slut"?...If she's pleasing you and just having good ole fashioned sex...why is she put down for it as a "slut"??..that is the crux of the double-standard and one of the things that give many women bad and/or very mixed feelings about porn - and even sex in general...It's a question which germinates in every young girls/woman's mind.."Why am I a "slut"..for just doing what he wants?..or what I want?"...If sex is so good...why does someone -(ALWAYS the female) have to be denigrated for it?

[Tsiyu]

422. I really enjoy being patronized. Don't all women?

Once again, I am "weak" by "fearing evolution and science." Yes, yes, I know, we irrational females just never catch a clue, eh?

If you know me, you know there isn't a whole hell of a lot I'm skeered of, but nice try.

The fatal flaw in YOUR logic is that you forget that the victors write history. Do you think that the prisoners at Abu Ghraib are going to be honest about themselves to their captors? If a woman lives in a society controlled by violent or patriarchal men, she will simply tell those men what they want to hear. "Oh, no, dear. I'm not imagining fucking the new young Warlord. No, no. Not me!" We will never really know the social structure humans were best suited to, because increased capacity to intimidate and control through weaponry erased societies that might have operated differently than the patriarchal one men know and love.

And once again, how does a man tell a woman what all women or even most women think? How do you DO that?

Maybe you don't realize how patronizing you sound to me, but now I'm telling you.

[Kipepeo]

461. your argument is so tired

"My opinion: Western women have had far too much say in defining what is right and wrong in terms of social and sexual behavior."

Oh really?? I assume you think Western women are too uppity, too demanding, too vocal about their sexuality?? As for this:

"And (real) science tells us that men tend toward polygyny and females toward monogyny."

That's funny. Because most of the recent studies I've seen point towards women and men really having no difference when it comes to their proclivity towards polygyny.

[MaraJade]

494. BTW,

I am enjoying your posts, helix.

But I do beg to differ with you on the issue that men and women always differ in their ideas of what constitutes "healthy" sex.
I also disagree with the notion that "western women," per se, have had too much say in defining the terms of sexual behavior.

I believe that the real problem is that we have far too many people
of both genders whose beliefs about sex are shaped by puritanical notions of what healthy human behavior is supposed to be. Believe it or not, there are millions of people whose view of sex has been shaped, not by nature, but by nurture.

You wouldn't believe the millions who have been brought up to believe
that sex is simply and inherently WRONG--these people believe it is
strictly for reproduction and never, ever for enjoyment or pleasure.

This is the overruling premise of the pro-life and modesty/abstinence
movements. People should simply not be having sex for pleasure. Having sex for pleasure is "unhealthy" because that is not what sex is for.

For example, both my sister and my mother believe that oral sex is
utterly abhorrent. They also believe that a woman who assumes any position except the "missionary' is little more than a whore. Both of these notions, spawned by their own personal religious beliefs, are very strange to me. However, there are millions of people who
share these beliefs. They would tell me (and many millions of others) that any other sexual proclivities are odd and "unhealthy."

I guess that what I am saying is that what people view as "healthy"
has far more to do with nurture, environment and upbringing than
reproductive strategy.

I agree that children need to be protected and guided in their life
decisions. No one--no women, no men, NO ONE--should ever be exploited for the sexual pleasure or entertainment of others. However, I also see nothing wrong with consenting ADULTS who enjoy
things erotic.

I believe that it is the prudish, puritanical view of sexuality that is the unhealthy one.

[Book Lover]

35. If we all misunderstand your post

please consider that your use of heavy verbage and overly complex sentence structure may be part of the reason. I had to read your post three times before I thought I had a handle on what you were so upset about. Obviously, if you assert that you have no beef with porn itself or the indistry, than you presented that point poorly.

[Eloriel]

159. I agree, Shondra

and I think you're either being disingenuous yourself, or your post/letter was VERY poorly written.

[shondradawson]

352. as opposed to the models of articulation

and critical thinking to be found on this thread?

Are you serious?

I have read numerous studies of the decline of reading and reading comprehension among American society, but this is really a sad, sad, thing.

I am currently discussing (finally, a real discussion and debate) my posts with a few contacts I have made online where I also submit my writings. It is a more academic/intellectual site, where people don't go to just snicker and smirk, but to really try and have a go at the democratic process of discussing ideas, how and where they are formed, and how and where they can be directed toward making real changes.

The members there, I am glad to say, were impressed with my post and my argument, understanding my frustration with the singled out group and their contribution to the very legitimate problems I addressed.

I will say I am unaccustomed to hearing my writing described as poor or unclear. I have only posted here three or four times, finding much of the writing here, if I may say so, to be very poor and unclear. I will admit my few attempts to address issues have always met with more or less the same attacks; from my arguments to my points to my person,etc. Perhaps it is my writing: perhaps it is simply par for the course, as I am beginning to understand as I browse through the DU discussion board, to snicker and deride anyone who dares to really talk about something seriously.

This is a verbal playground, not a discussion board, and I find it even more narrow-minded than the conservative boards I've been on. Ideologies are alive and well and fiercely kept among the "liberal Democrats," though I think of them more as nihilists.

The refusal to believe in anything does not make you a liberal: it makes you a coward, and democracy cannot be defended by them.

[maxsolomon]

25. so if white men only watched porn with white women over 18...

that would be better than watching porn with "minority groups" represented, as well as porn with white women?

i read it twice & i'm not sure what your point is. the right to free speech of those who oppose porn are not as protected as those of the producers of porn?

[Book Lover]

29. My view, as someone who used to work in the industry

I was the AD for a state-wide weekly adult entertainment magazine for a few years a little while ago. What I saw from that point was that like every other commodity in the world, there are products made for different audiences. Plus, porn has a lot of product to make: websites, print magazines and books, vids and DVDs, interactive (which never seems to take off, but that's another issue); I'm sure I'm missing a few. I assure you that there are mainstream porn producers who market to the "minority" (as used in your piece) customer base. But I'm guessing you don't go to those kind of stores, and you don't browse the shelves if you do.

I would also like to point out that you included in your letter a statement of outrage that these videoboxes are covered with hyperbolic copy text. Believe me, all those videos are not as nasty as the makers want you, the potential consumer, to believe. There are only so many ways you can show people having sex.

[Ian David]

31. You can take my porn when you pry it from my wet, sticky hands

eom

[donheld]

381. Ditto

the second amendment to the US constitution gives us the right to bare....oh wait did i get carried away or what?

[Fleshdancer]

41. my problem with porn....

We're talking about a multi billion dollar industry and yet there is no regulation as far as I know. The prostitutes in Nevada are regulated so I don't see why pornography actresses/actors aren't. I would prefer that they be able to unionize and be treated like employees in their industry and have opportunities to obtain things like health care.

I think it was 20/20 a few years back that had a special report on the subject and they people who pack the tapes into the tape boxes have more benefits than the people in the videos because they are union workers. That, to me, is pretty messed up.

[InvisibleBallots]

43. the Porn CEOs like to lie and pretend that all the actresses are making

big bucks - while of course, the vast majority of them are not. After the recent AIDS scare, the Porn CEOs decided to outsource - there was a raft of articles in the mainstream press about the offshoring of the porn industry.

Why pay some American woman $500 for a porn movie, when you can go to Brazil and find a poor women who will do anything - anything - for $50?

But they will ALWAYS say that women are not being exploited, and they will ALWAYS point out the tiny handful of women who actually made big bucks doing it.

It's not the sex that's the problem, it's the capitalism. But no one wants to look at that aspect of it, it might interfere with our whacking!

[benburch]

387. We've already established that the going rate is $175.00

Which is almost two weeks wages in Brazil.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

108. Why regulate it?

Seems like that it is serving its market well (no one seems to be having difficulty finding porn) and seems like localities can limit it if they wish.

[Hippo_Tron]

211. That sounds like a good idea to me

It should be regulated and they should form a union.

[InvisibleBallots]

42. Here's a strategy

White men - hell all men - are not EVER going to get the point until you produce porn as degrading to men as it is to women. So here's what you need to do - find poor working class straight white boys, and pay them big money to do things that the vast majority of men would find disgusting or distasteful. Mock men's bodies, put them through humiliation, produce fantasies of them being raped by other men, mock their tiny little penises - then ADVERTISE IT ALL OVER THE PLACE - spam people's mailboxes with it, try to make it hip and cool.

Show men getting spit on, defecated on, beated, abused etc. Write suggestive ad copy about "good boys" getting kidnapped, tricked, and forced into sexual humiliation. Make sure you slyly suggest they are underage, and make a fetish out of their naivete.

They will start to get it.

[Boosterman]

44. Bad news for you

pretty sure all that stuff is out there. Its not as popular but it is out there.

[InvisibleBallots]

47. yes, it's not popular, and not spammed everywhere

Sure it's out there, but it does not affect the culture as much as porn where women are the objects.

[transeo]

81. You're right

It's not out there. Time for women to step up and make sex objects out of men. As a gay man, I fully support that effort.

:evilgrin:

Additionally, women need to be consumers of porn, or get into the industry as producers to force the change. Some are already doing that and their work is quite popular with women and men.

[Nadienne]

303. I once tried to write something

along bondage themes, but with the victim (a woman) as the hero and the man a teeny-peeny loser, hoping to send a message that if you can't respect the equality of women to men, then you are like this teeny-peeny loser and you'll only "score" by using coercion.

My boyfriend at the time read it... I think some of the subtleties were lost to him... Our relationship didn't last much longer than that...

[transeo]

46. Uh, gay porn?

They do all of that. Guess what, men don't feel degraded because of it. If they do, I've never heard a word about it from any straight or gay man. There are even many straight "actors" in gay porn.

There is obviously a much deeper issue here than the porn itself. The porn is not the problem. The problem is the continued power imbalance between men and women. Men have too much power over women, who at this point are actually a majority of the population. Women connect porn to this dominance, men don't give a rats ass because to them it's all about indulging a fantasy that perhaps they're too afraid to discuss with their partner or just can't get a partner to enact it with. It has nothing to do with power to them, and hence they don't care when men are treated in a similar fashion in the gay porn industry. It's just sex.

[InvisibleBallots]

48. this sort of porn is also for men

So it doesn't affect the balance of power between men and women. What I'm saying, only slightly tongue in cheek, is that women should go on an out all campaign to make the sexual humiliation and degredation of men popular, widespread, and even mainstream. Then I think men will start to understand what these women are complaining about.

All the pro-porn people should be happy, I'm suggesting MORE porn! :)

[eyepaddle]

56. I say go for it!

if it works--whatever.

Honestly I don't think it'll make much difference--I just delete all that spam, and would continue to do so.

Some men (the real hardcore types) just feel differently about sex than some women, a bit raunchier, if you will. I had an old girlfriend that wanted to watch two guys doing it, I just pointed at the computer and said "hey, it's in there somewhere get after it." She never could bring herself to do it--at least not when I was around....

Oh yeah, just google CFNM and see what shakes out. Somebody is way out in front of you on this one.

[InvisibleBallots]

59. Just look at the attitudes towards women of young men today

versus young men a few years ago. If you think that growing up in a culture where women are routinely degraded and dismissed as little more than sex objects, that is going to have an effect on you.

I thought the trend of calling females "bitches" was no big deal, until I talked to the boys using the slang - and it came along with some incredibly negative attitudes towards women. This is very, very different than when I was younger. Sure, all straight men are going to sexually objectify women to some degree, but there is a qualitative difference this time.

I don't get it - what if I enjoyed watching gay men being spat upon, humiliated and the like? What if films of this nature were common? Do you think it would have no effect on people's attitudes towards gays?

How much difference is there between, say, some fundie wingnut saying "all gays are sinners and going to hell" vs. some porn director making movies that say "all women are bitches that want to get raped"? Are you saying this won't have an effect?

My point remains - women need to start culturally attacking men the same way they are being attacked, and eventually the men will get it.

[uncle ray]

69. "all women are bitches that want to get raped"

where can i find that movie? i'd really like to see it.

or maybe the attitides you cite are from the MTV generation of tv etc. not porn?

[solinvictus]

180. MTV/BET

That's more of a rap/hip-hop influence than porn. Geez, as misogynistic as most rap musicians are, it's obviously had an influence on those who listen to the music.

[InvisibleBallots]

182. hip hop is very, very much influenced by porn

"Geez, as misogynistic as most rap musicians are, it's obviously had an influence on those who listen to the music."

Yep. I also remember quite a stink about the anti-semitism in some rap too. Is it okay to write and publicize songs that smear Jewish people? Is it okay to produce porn that smears women?

[jdj]

233. it's SUCH a complicated issue.

Because rap videos employ so many dancers.

These are alot of women eating and paying rent off of this art-form.

AND the fact that rap videos include a WAY more realistic shape for the women subjects than do high fashion magazines...one could actually safely assert from the women in rap videos that the artists, unlike high fashion designers, are ACTUALLY heterosexual. I think although the message is bad in one way, seeing a generously figured black woman in many rap videos is actually positive.

I actually feel the transfiguration going on in high fashion whereby gay men demand and employ the most androgynous models possible, whose measurements are the exact inverse of a mature female. They instead seem to be aiming to create clothing for a post-pubescent male in drag, with wide shoulders and a narrow waste and tiny ass, yet the majority of women are pear shaped as a matter of biology (non-dangerous fat storage to convert into milk for baby in case of food shortage). If I had to point to any industry as having harmed women, particularly young women, substantially and severely in the psychology and body image department, it would have to be the fashion industry and fashion magazines in general. Thankfully, minority women have come on to the scene like a tornado in the past decade and said FUCK THAT in a major way, to the imposed carving down of the female form in order to make it non-repugnant (read: male) to male homosexuals.

Compared to this, the damage to women from porn is probably minimal.

[double_helix]

256. Exactly - ALL hetero men like curves on their women,

not just black or minority men.

Just take a look back throughout history: the female sex icons regular hetero males choose themselves -- the pinups (like Marilyn Monroe), the pornstars, etc. -- are much fuller and voluptuous than fashion models, who are chosen mostly by aristocratic women and gay males.

One can argue that even the average modern pornstar/pinup is much thinner than the average modern woman. But the pornstar body is still much curvier (and not just breasts) and healthier looking than the waify fashion models. And the trend is toward a more voluptous, healthy (not fat) figure (like Biance, or Jessica Simpson).

[InvisibleBallots]

356. "All men are like this" "All women are like this"

You must know everybody, DH?

[double_helix]

361. hetero men of all races,

is what I should've said, i.e. "all" men. It was a broad statement, an opinion, made in a casual conversation on an internet message board.

No - I don't know everybody, but I don't think it is necessary in order to form some type of conclusion. I am not of the thinking that each human is some special, unique entity - one so different from the other that it is impossible to speak of as a group.

Humans are animals, just like any other. Just as we can make objective statements about the behavioral patterns of lions or fish or any animal or plant, the same can be done about humans. I can say "All lions eat meat," and although I have not met every lion - because I have read about them, I have seen them on television - I believe I have enough data to come to a conclusion. There is no way to function in this world without the ability to do this.

[shondradawson]

348. many of those dancers are not paid

most video girls are not paid. I thought everybody knew that.

It's true; they are usually promised some stipend or compensation, which usually amounts to a signed photo or some cheap production gift.

Funny you brought that up...I though everybody knew most of those women were not paid to be in the video. They are fans, groupies, etc.

gotta love groupies, though.

They damn near raised me...(smile)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

270. You Have The Right In This Country To Be An Anti-Semite

Or Misogynist As Long As You Don't Attempt To Physically Harm A Jew Or Woman...

[eyepaddle]

70. my point is

no we won't. Sure a few will, but males have an exceptionally strong ability to not pay attention.

Have you checked out CFNM yet? Alright it's Clothed Female Naked Male porn--and there is NO shortage of it on the net

I'll be honest I haven't spent an exorbitant amount of time researching all aspects of porn--but what I have see largely plays to "I wish I could be like that guy and get super-hot girls and lots of 'em" type as opposed to "I need to settle a score with all of womenkind" variety. (Yes I realize I should've hyphenated those two statements, but I don't feel like going back and changing it so there:) )

Ah...well, I could go on, but I must go to a meeting!

Have a good night folks.

[Boosterman]

75. Actually this type of porn is pretty popular

sorry but it is. The stuff you are saying is extremely prevalent. women in charge who humiliate and degrade their men. Heck the best local strip club here has a radio ad where the women say "let me dominate you".

I understand your feling of degradation for women but what you propose as a solution has been done. A lot.

[The Magistrate]

85. Unfortunately For Your Hypothetical, Mr. Ballots

Pornographic material depicting the humiliation, degredation, etc., of men by women, is widely produced already, and hugely popular with men....

"There is no account for tastes."

[InvisibleBallots]

90. sorry, Mr Magistrate

"hugely popular" is an exaggeration, and the fact that it's geared towards men instead of women makes it irrelevant to my point.

[The Magistrate]

97. You Should Get Out More, Dear

No substitute in these matters for doing your own research....

Sadomasochism remains under a rather stringent taboo, which of necessity drives its devotees more towards reliance on fantasy materials than is the case with other particular letches. Not only is the market for this stuff sizeable beyond your dreams, but much material ostensibly showing female submission is consumed by males who imagine themselves in the woman's role in the materials. The mind is an extraordinarily flexible thing.

Any attempt to police sexual imaginings is, and will always remain, a mug's game. Human beings do not experience reality directly, as a rule, but rather manipulate symbols that provide them with a representation of reality, rather like bats navigating by echoes which build them a picture vivid as what sight would provide of their surroundings. Sexuality and sexual expression is no exception to this: what is commonly called normal heterosexuality in humans is simply a fetishization of vaginal penetration, and an accompanying constellation of cues displayed by various bodily forms. The ordinary routines of socialization, accompanied by procreative drives, manage to get most people focused in this direction, but there will necessarily be a great number of exceptions, as one of the key attributes of symbols is that they are manipulable independently of the thing they originally signify. Thus, for many people, the sexual drive may come to focus on a variety of other things, as it is pressed into service of supplying various emotional needs quite independent of procreation. It may be used to re-create or otherwise soothe past traumas; it may be used to act out urges to power, or to reinforce self-image: the usages it can be put to are, quite literally, limited only by the human imagination. This is a thing no society has yet been able to check in any appreciable degree.

"If your sexual fantasies were truely of interest to others, they would no longer be fantasies."

[InvisibleBallots]

98. a stringent taboo against Sadomasochism? Where?

When I grew up, S&M was popular and hip. In every mall in America they sold memorabilia with sayings like "Whip me, beat me, make me bleed", and paraphenalia like whips and restraints were sold everywhere. Taboo?

"but much material ostensibly showing female submission is consumed by males who imagine themselves in the woman's role in the materials"

Really? How do we know this? How *can* we know this, really?

"Any attempt to police sexual imaginings is, and will always remain, a mug's game. "

I agree completely.

"what is commonly called normal heterosexuality in humans is simply a fetishization of vaginal penetration"

I can't agree with this. There is a pretty specific contribution that vaginal penetration makes to the survival of the human species. A fetish, say, foot-worshipping, doesn't. But your explanation of what "causes" fetishes makes sense to me, dear.

And really, the last thing I need is more sexual imagery, I'm surrounded by it daily, not that I really need the help.

[The Magistrate]

99. Again, Dear

You really need to get out more....

"I'm going home now. Someone get me some frogs and some bourbon."

[Name removed]

234. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[InvisibleBallots]

239. you can't blame Magistrate for the "dear" bit, I requested it

He usually likes "sir" but I prefered Mr. or Dear, so he's being polite and following my request.

As to him being condescending, well, I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.

[naryaquid]

249. ...Whatever!

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

376. how about just promoting porn that doesn't humiliate ANYONE? n/t

[naryaquid]

454. ...Your suggestion is a good one...and I think it's very telling of

the "pro-porn" guys here (most are guys) that not ONE of them backed you up on this..DESPITE all their denial that, porn, in the main, is degrading to women...looks like they may be lying to themselves after all.

[livinginphotographs]

401. "All the pro-porn people should be happy, I'm suggesting MORE porn!"

If that's not an effective campaign slogan, I don't know what is.

[brainshrub]

53. Porn is not a microcosm of the patriarchy.

I liked your post.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

246. How About Gay And Transexual Porn?

Who's the patriach there?

[InvisibleBallots]

61. nonsense

"Women connect porn to this dominance, men don't give a rats ass because to them it's all about indulging a fantasy that perhaps they're too afraid to discuss with their partner or just can't get a partner to enact it with. It has nothing to do with power to them"

Nonsense. There is a deep and abiding connection between sex and power.

[ashmanonar]

74. :/

i don't think its as cut and dry as you suggest...there CAN be a connection between sex and power...but i know quite a few people, (i go to college, what can i say) that see sex as simply enjoyment, no more and no less...and i know many people to whom its a very special thing, something shared between two people that love each other...

i'd say that the connection between sex and power is far more of a problem when it comes to business ethics and sexual harassment...

i don't really know how that would connect to porn, i don't have any personal experience with the porn industry, (or with sex...:dunce:)...

anyways...

[fedsron2us]

54. You need to get out more

Some men were paying both male and female prostitutes to provide exactly this sort of humiliation long before porn became a trillion dollar industry. Your right that the sex industry is exploitative but then so is working in retailing, IT etc. If you want to experience degradation try spending some time in any minimum wage job.

[InvisibleBallots]

63. that's nearly irrelevant

Look there are men who will pay money for all sorts of things, anything you could possibly think of. The exceptions don't make the rules. Male sexual humiliation is NOT a major part of our culture, not nearly in the way that sexual humiliation of women is.

Like I said to the poster above, some women are complianing about the porn industry, let's all stop jacking off for a moment and listen to what these women have to say. Tomorrow, the porn industry will still be supplying you with anything you want, don't worry.

[AnnInLa]

151. Hear, hear

Thanks!

[JHB]

164. And your plan will backfire just like "putting up 'hunk calendars' "

Your intended audience would think that you "get it", that you understand that fantasy doesn not make reality and to each their own, and even use you for for justification ("Hey look, what I'm into is nothing compared to this InvisibleBallots stuff. If you want to go after weird shit go after him/her!")

Just how do you think you'd get people to view what you propose anyway?

[InvisibleBallots]

166. no way - "Hunk Calendars" are working great

Did you see the post in Late Breaking News - now men have the same "body image" problems that women have had for a long time. I bet "Hunk Calenders" had a lot to do with it.

[JHB]

183. The only group that has freed itself of "body image" problems...

...are nudists/naturists. Which in some quarters is quite ironic.

[JHB]

186. "Working great" depends on your goal...

If your goal was to make men as self-concious about how they look, OK. But since the assertion is that porn has been getting "worse", then they don't seem to be doing the job, and neither would your proposed "counter-porn" (if I may call it that).

[InvisibleBallots]

188. my goal

was to help men understand why women often object to their objectification. Maybe men who are now feeling self-conscious about their body image can empathize with women more?

[quaker bill]

49. I will grant you one or two points

I have always felt that porn is not the highest and best use of the "freedom of speech" defense. I honestly prefer the "right to privacy" and "powers not enumerated" concepts better.

I tend to look at it from more of a libertarian point of view. If consenting adults care to make recordings of their activities and market them, that is their business. Whether I choose to buy them is mine.

If, on the other hand, there is abduction and abuse, those are matters are subject to criminal prosecution under existing laws that have nothing to do with the sexual content of the material. Those laws should be enforced as rigorously as necessary to put an end to the practice.

Defense of the porn industry is not our highest calling. The porn industry is by all accounts very well funded and could defend itself. Further, as the Caucasian Heterosexual Male right wing moralists are often found out to be frequent customers, I really do not think there is that much of a threat to the business from that source in the long term.

The fight against porn is something the right wingers really do not want to win. They just want to be seen fighting it. To strike a blow for "morality" locally they had the women wear thongs and pasties. Of course the pasties are reportedly painted on and transparent. They created a specification for how much area had to be "covered", and sent law enforcement officers in to measure for compliance.

In the next County they required all nude productions to have "theatrical merit". So we now have "Hamlet" being acted poorly in the nude. However, putting the "citizen initiative" on the ballot assisted a number of "conservative" republicans to raise lots of money and got them alot of free press coverage.

Understand that conservative republicans have run that County on their own since 1980. By run, I mean held every single elected office in the county for over 20 years. In this time not a single adult oriented business has been closed. However, a good number more have been licensed. This is why I conclude that these businesses are actually under no threat. Yes, they will get regulated in some bizzare and quirky ways, but that is about it.

As a progressive, I think there are far more worthy causes that need our attention.

[Eloriel]

161. As a progressive

You would do well to study something about the sex industry and its effects on women before dismissing it as basically unimportant and not worthy of your concern. Unless, of course, you care nothing about women's issues or equality for women.

[quaker bill]

242. And if had you read my post, you might have noted

That I am saying that the defense of the porn industry, often engaged in by PROGRESSIVES on the grounds of "freedom of speech", is a waste of our resources. Our time as progressives would be better spent, as an example, getting services to the poor than it is DEFENDING the porn industry. Is that now sufficiently clear?

I believe, to the extent I can tell from the emotionally loaded and poorly crafted text in the original post, that the author was trying to make this point. Perhaps I missed it, but it seemed loaded with cautionary words for the progressive activists who engage in the defense of the porn industry.

It is reasonable to conclude based on the evidence, that the porn industry is under no serious long term threat from either the religious right or the radical left. I know that you wish it were some other way, but it isn't.

BTW, Hi Eloriel.

[Blue_Tires]

51. um...you kind of lost me

and the piece on CommonDreams.org didn't mention race at all

[DemocratSinceBirth]

64. I Don't Understand...

Black Man/White Woman is a much more popular porn form than White Man/Black Woman and I would assume that African Americans consume no more or no less porn that caucasians....


What's wrong with porn?

[InvisibleBallots]

67. you assume that appeals to only Black men?

I would be hesitant to assume that Black Man/White Woman porn appeals strictly to straight Black men. I would be surprised indeed if that segment of the industry could survive on the dollars of Black men alone.

Interestingly enough, the very first Black Man/White porn movie was made to appeal to White women, if you believe the director.

[Shakespeare]

71. You know, sometimes fucking is just fucking.

And sometimes watching people fuck is just about watching people fuck, and not about power. All porn is not about power or exploitation. In fact, a majority of porn is just about fucking. There are sub-genres that involve power issues, but there are also sub-genres that involve food, extremely large breasts and geriatric people. It's all a matter of taste, and the spectrum of porn is much wider--and much less nefarious--than you want to admit.

Signed, a feminist who enjoys watching people fuck, ergo, porn.

[Eloriel]

162. On what do you base your

self-identification as a "feminist"? There's nothing in your post, other than your own self-assertion, that identifies you in any way as someone who even remotely understands ANYthing about feminism. You totally lack understanding about the issue of "power" vis a vis pornography and what is meant in that discussion, for starters -- real damn basic for feminists.

[Shakespeare]

198. ROFL.

Well, what would you like me to base my criteria on (not that I have any need at all to justify this to you)?

Frankly, Eloriel, you have no idea WHAT my understanding of power and porn is based solely on my brief statement, and it's rather presumptuous of you to assert that you do.

Believe me, I know all the "damn basics" of feminism quite well.

So, how do you want to approach the further discussion? From a critical perspective by talking about some of the seminal (aha, pun intended) writing on feminism, or do you prefer a more pop-culture, emotive approach? I can ably approach it from any number of points of view.

[Nadienne]

241. The sub-genres that involve food...

Is there more of food that goes into pussies, or is there more of food that men stick their penises into?

"Fuck" is a charged word with some negative connotations. To use "fuck" in reference to sex is to imply that one is doing it to the other - in which case, someone is dominant and someone is submissive.

When I have sex, I have sex. I don't get fucked, and I don't fuck. Moreover, I don't like to watch fucking because (at least in porns featuring a man and a woman) usually it is the woman who is fucked. The man "wins"; he "scores"; the woman "takes it like a champ". His sexual conquest is celebrated; but she is just a slut.

I don't see how any porn can avoid dominance and submissiveness as an underlying theme.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

247. How About Gay And Transexual Porn?

Since you used the word fuck I'll use it...

The man fucks the other man and often that man in turn fucks him...


Same thing with transexual porn.... The man fucks the transexual and often the transexual fucks the man....


Who's being exploited?

[Nadienne]

251. In those cases, both are being exploited.

The only people I know who watch gay and transexual porn watch it to laugh at it. That doesn't prove that the "actors'" sexuality is being exploited for a comical means. I have a hard time believing that the "actors" (and "actresses") do this with the intention of being laughed at. I certainly wouldn't appreciate my sexuality being used as someone else's comedy. If it were, wouldn't that be exploitation? Especially if it was made into a movie and sold for profits?

As to who is being dominant and who is submissive, that is sometimes different from one porno to the next. Also, those roles change throughout the porno. It might balance out - one character spends as much time being dominant as the other spends being dominant. But the ones I've seen definately have a dominant and a submissive. Generally, from what I've seen (and it hasn't been a lot) the one getting the penis is submissive (for that moment) while the one giving the penis is dominant. For lesbians, the generality is the same: the one with the dildo is dominant; the one getting licked out is dominant, though I would bet there are more exceptions to this generality than there are to the gay men generality.

Btw, I think "fucking" is different than "having sex". Sex is something you do with someone; fucking is something you do to someone. I think pornos promote fucking and give sex a bad name.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

269. I Doubt That..

"In those cases, both are being exploited."

Posted by Nadienne

"The only people I know who watch gay and transexual porn watch it to laugh at it. That doesn't prove that the "actors'" sexuality is being exploited for a comical means. I have a hard time believing that the "actors" (and "actresses") do this with the intention of being laughed at. "


I serously doubt men watch gay or transexual porn for laughs...

[Nadienne]

288. But the fact is, it does get watched for laughs.

By the way, I do know men who watch gay porn to laugh at it. (You said, "I serously doubt men watch gay or transexual porn for laughs..." I know men who do.)

Whether they intend it when they make it or not, it does get laughed at. Someone else's sexuality becomes someone else's joke. Like I said, I doubt the people who make the porns intend to be laughed at, but it does happen.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

317. I'll Bet A Guy Who Says He Watches Gay Porn For Laughs

Has One Foot Still In The Closet...



And I'll bet every gay man who reads this thread will back me up..



I can just see some "straight" guy watching two guys fuck saying to himself "this is so funny"....

[Nadienne]

391. One foot in the closet?

Well, if he's in the closet at all, he has both feet in the closet. And if he's laughing about homosexuality, he's not likely to come out soon...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

407. I Have Gay Friends, Bisexual Friends, Transgendered Friends

And Straight Friends....


I can tell you that a man who voluntarily watches a man blow or fuck another man is either gay, bi, or bi-curious...


A so called "strg8" man is not going to voluntarily watch two guys have sex...

[Nadienne]

409. So you know my friends better than I do...

But, to be perfectly honest, the instance of a friend of mine watching a gay porn went like this: a female friend downloaded gay porn for a male friend. She got him to watch it by saying, "Look at this! You gotta see this! This is some hot shit!" And he was disgusted, but tricked my boyfriend into watching it in the same way. Truthfully, why would a straight guy go out of his way to ridicule gay people unless he was a little bit gay himself? I guess it does seem a little odd...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

413. Somebody Can Link It...

They did a test of "straight" men's reaction to gay pornography and latent homosexuality....


First they gave a group of "straight" men a questionnaire on attitudes toward homosexuality and then showed them gay pornography...


The men who scored highest on the test for homophobic attitudes were also most aroused by the gay pornography...

[Nadienne]

416. LOL, no surprise to me.

I don't know how aroused my friend was, but he does seem to be a bit of a homophobe. So perhaps showing my boyfriend was a way for him to see it again himself, without risking social repercussions... LOL.

[donheld]

429. You are backed up

this woman is very wrong!

[MaraJade]

493. But there are lots of straight women

Who watch gay porn for the same reason that men watch so-called
lesbian porn.

And there are many women who write a form of porn/erotica called
"slash," which involves M/M relationships. I am one such woman.

Not everyone laughs at it.

[TankLV]

320. Boy, I've read bullshit before, but you post takes the cake.

"The only people I know who watch gay and transexual porn watch it to laugh at it."

Meaning that you have a very limited circle of people - EXTREMELY LIMITED.

That statement alone is worth a lifetime of ridicule.

Simply astounding.

And you really believe what you spew?!?!

Do you even know how many wealthy pornstars there are out there?

Do you even know that they ARE wealthy?

And this is "exploitation"?!?!?!

Read some porn biographies and interviews - most just like sex - and they do porn because THEY GET PAID FOR DOING SOMETHING THEY WOULD NORMALLY DO! - but with more people thay are attracted to, AND THEY GET TONS OF MONEY FOR DOING IT!

[InvisibleBallots]

354. wow, talk about bullshit!

"Do you even know how many wealthy pornstars there are out there?

Do you even know that they ARE wealthy?

And this is "exploitation"?!?!?!

most just like sex - and they do porn because THEY GET PAID FOR DOING SOMETHING THEY WOULD NORMALLY DO!"

You really believe the fantasy that you are being sold, don't you? Do you personally know any women that have been in the sex industry? Are they wealthy?

[TankLV]

442. Um - Yes, yes they are - the overwhelming majority of them are!

Do a little research on the subject.

Attend a porno convention.

You'd be amazed.

All my statements are a FACT, regardless if you believe them.

[Nadienne]

397. Let me guess: You're a white man,

and apparently you live in a city. And apparently you think the whole country is just like the city in which you live, where gay people aren't ridiculed.

And I would guess that if you've had sex within the last month - probably to a woman - her moans and sighs of "pleasure" are just an act to make you come faster so that she could get this over with. (You need her "pleasure" because it proves how much of a stud you are.) She might stroke your ego by saying that she likes sex, but I bet she doesn't really care that much whether she gets it or not.

Enlighten me: how many wealthy porn stars are there? Five? Ten?

I know two things beyond all doubt: I need to feel an emotional connection in order to enjoy sex. I need to feel trust; I need to feel trusted. Sex is more than a physical thing.

The other thing I know is that this is not rare. It may even be typical, the rule rather than the exception. Maybe there are women porn stars who can do it and enjoy it without needing an emotional connection. In that case, they're in the right profession.

The point being, you can't generalize and evaluate and justify porn based on a few women and the money they may or may not make. To do so is ridiculous, arrogant, and very narrow-minded.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

415. Lots Of Homophobes Everywhere...

Let me guess: You're a white man,"
Posted by Nadienne
and apparently you live in a city. And apparently you think the whole country is just like the city in which you live, where gay people aren't ridiculed.


But guys who rent or download gay porn ain't doing it to laugh at it....

[donheld]

428. Nadienne your statements are just plain ignorant

I know a multitude of people who watch gay porn NOT to laugh at. Maybe the people you know have extra sick minds. I also know some gay porn stars. These men are far from exploited. Many of these men go to great lengths to get into the porn business.

[donheld]

430. Maybe in your world fucking has a negative connotation

but in the gay world i know, and i'd say i have a pretty broad knowledge, fucking, having sex, etc is all interchangable. Sometimes fucking is something you want someone to do to/with/for you. Pure pleasure.

[indigobusiness]

281. A distinction between PORN and EROTICA should be made...

in a mature and enlightened society. It is a point almost never made in the American dialog. The important distinctions are lost. Images of humans fucking are not always PORN.

You make good points. And I applaud and respect your feminine view, even if you aren't accepted by others as a genuine feminist.

[JHB]

286. The problem is...

...when it comes down to actually defining that distinction, one discovers just how subjective those terms can be. Social biases abound.

Or the short version: "If I get off on it, it's erotica; if (sneer) they get off on it, it's (double sneer) porn.

[indigobusiness]

294. It can be reasonably discussed, as all art often is...

though, not always.

The key phrase in my original assertion is "mature and enlightened society".

[The Magistrate]

367. A Button In My Possession Says It Very Well. Sir

"If a woman likes it, it's erotica. If a man likes it, its pornography."

That would seem to be this discussion in a nut-shell.

[indigobusiness]

395. That is a trite oversimplification...

but a fairly accurate description of the level of the controversy.

[transeo]

73. Point by point response - very long

OK, I read the CommonDreams.org article and now will respond to what you say, point by point.

"I am not surprised by the evident scorn with which you treat the viewpoints of what you consider to be a "minority" group of people who question the intrinsic value of pornography and the ramifications of its relatively unchecked and so meteoric rise in American society."

Actually, if you look at the amount of money being generated by the porn industry, the objectors clearly are not the majority of the population. Additionally, none of the "ramifications" have ever been proven in any unbiased study. The burden of proof is on the accuser to prove that there is harm being done. Where is that proof?


"I presume you are both white males, as only white men would collectively group women, Jews, Muslims, Blacks, Hispanics, and Asians together and then call them a "minority" group without pretending to be at least slightly uneasy with the term."


What are you talking about? When they said "minority group" they are referring to the activists who are trying to kill the porn industry. Their sentence is as follows, "Despite this country's documented appetite for sexual fare, a vocal minority hopes to put the brakes on the widespread availability of adult material." Why do you imply that there is some sort of racism in that statement? Look at how much money the porn industry generates. It's enormous and the demand keeps growing. It is clearly a minority of the population that really wants it stopped. There is nothing racist about that statement.

"...it stands to say it is the worst kept secret in America that pornography is overwhelmingly a white man's habit, as is true of all the areas of adult entertainment, thereby conspicuously excluding the above mentioned members of your "minority" group."

Again, huh? Only white men buy porn? Care to back that up with a reference? I know several women, black men and hispanic men that LOVE porn. My partner, who is half mexican and half native american loves porn.

"I also agree that arguments against pornography are filled with the "usual rhetoric and hyperbole"; however, the same can be said for the arguments for pornography, which is why I do tire of the 'free speech" defense."

Again, the burden of proof lies with the accuser. They need to make a clear, coherent argument backed by unbiased studies, not moral-values propaganda. What other industry has to prove it benefits society in order to function?

Additionally, has anyone ever considered some potential benefits? They should be studied. I'm not saying there definitely are benefits, though I must say when I was single it kept me from going out to get the real thing, thus protecting me from possible STD transmission.

"...these parties were censored almost incontestably and often to a fault: struck down by state and federal laws with outrageous fines and/or prison terms, if not hunted down, rounded up, and shot to death."

So the porn industry should be thankful that hasn't happened to them? How exactly does that relate?

"I wonder if you have read the "country's documented appetite for sexual fare." It will show the expanse and development indeed of the almost exclusively white male palate, still craving the "golden days" when they could freely and legally sexually exploit any member of their "minority" group..."

Well, of course, in our country. White men have had all the money and power and thus could produce porn. This does not mean that if black men, asian women or native americans were in that position that they would not create porn as well. It has existed throughout time in many cultures.

"...so practice free speech for the right to be able to sexually fantasize about exploiting members of their "minority" group, since they are no longer freely and legally able to actually exploit them now."

Are you the thought police? Last time I checked, I had the right to sexually fantasize about any damn thing I please, minority group, body shape, gender, ANYTHING thank you very much. There is a huge difference between fantasizing and acting out on something. If something turns you on that I find repulsive and offensive, that's my problem. Likewise if you don't like what I do, tough luck. Fantasy and action are two very separate things. We all fantasize about different things and have different turn-ons. Why is it a bad thing if a white man has a particular fondness for asian women, or the opposite? If it works for them, it's none of your business.

"It is obvious to anyone who has ever persued the adult video shelves that the hundreds of titles referring to "slant-eyed, chocolate colored, and over the border," are not meant for Asian, Black, and Hispanic men, as titles referring to "sluts, whores, bitches, wenches, and bi-girls and boys," are not meant for a female or homosexual audience."

You're right, but that does not account for all porn, and the issue there is really racism, not porn. Racism, sexism, homophobia are big problems in this country. The porn industry is no exception. Again, it isn't the porn itself that is the problem, it's the way it's advertised. If someone can write a book that says all those things (and they can), why can't someone make a porn video cover that says all those things?

"I chuckled to read your sincere shock at the absence of adult entertainment representation at the US Sentate Committee hearing."

Isn't it a generally accepted standard in this nation to give both sides a fair shake? How would you feel if you were accused of something, but only the accusers were able to speak?

"Unlike sports, television, and movie fans, how little if anything porn fans know about who and what is behind the scenes of their favorite form of recreation. Though there should be nothing shocking about a porn fan's willful ignorance when regarding the object of his affection..."

Well, obviously you do know what is behind the scenes and can demonstrate how it is worse than what is going on behind the scenes of many industries. Please, inform us. Also, tell us how it is porn that causes these things and not, perhaps capitalism.

"I am not ignorant of pornography and the producers, directors, writers, and of course, the women in the industry. It was porn producers themselves who coined the 'kings of sleaze,' being quite proud of their grossly obscene and highly offensive material, as they will gladly tell you it is. A few articles and interviews can be found (they are not the most articulate men in the world, to be sure) and one I met in person echoes them all as he told me with a straight face that 'Men are animals, and animals like to humiliate their prey, right? Women are the prey and they like to be preyed upon and they like to be humiliated, and that's what it's about." Another is quoted as saying that 'Men are basically sick fucks, they like to watch sick fucks, and that's what I show. (laughing) I show sick fucks for sick fucks.'"


Perhaps you could cite the source and name this producer? Also are gross generalizations really a way to make a good argument? Just because one producer is an asshole, does not mean all feel that way and act that way. What you are saying is something akin to "all black people love fried chicken" because you know Oprah loves fried chicken (she does). It's a rediculous generalization.


"While being candid and honest, these are not the most sympathetic statements to present in defense of their industry, which is the sole reason they failed to appear at last month's US Senate hearing or any hearing for that matter."

Try weren't invited to appear.

"Their failure to appear, according to the AVN, was that nobody was notified in advance by the committee's staff. What the AVN (notorious for its omissions concerning the widespread drug, alcohol, physical and sexual abuse, veneral disease, fraud, racketerring, blackmail, and abduction that pollute an already dirty industry, because AVN is sponsored by (surprise) the porn producers) omits is that advance notice wouldn't have made any difference:"

Yet again, can you provide any evidence of your accusations? You accuse, accuse, accuse and never back anything up. Please provide examples, with sources.



"they will fail to appear regardless, anywhere they may be asked to answer, because they know in advance what their answer will be. Unlike the legions of white men who buy and buy, these few white men don't tuck under their mattresses and sheepishly shuffle their feet about what they sell and sell. They trust you will defend them, time and time again."

I see a theme - accuasations with no proof. Please provide an example of the industry purposefully not showing up to defend itself when asked to. I seem to remember a certain Larry Flynt showing up to defend himself.

This is exhausting. The rest of your piece is simply a diatribe against porn, backed by absolutely nothing. Yes, there are offensive, sexist, racist, homophobic images in porn. Guess what, all those things exist outside the porn industry as well. I see them every day and they piss me off every day. It isn't the porn that is the problem, it the racism, sexism etc. Those things are deeply rooted in our society, and until we can address those issues, the porn will never change to reflect it.

Additionally, if you think banning porn will help, you are completely nuts. That will simply lead to more people making their own, and probably more people being forced into the industry unwillingly. What we need is regulation, like the sex industry in Nevada. Make sure the "actors" are healthy, make sure they get benefits and make sure that they are not involve din illegal activities.

While we're at it, maybe we can also look at the ways other industries are exploiting their labor. Who do you think makes the clothes you buy, or the goods in your home? Probably someone being paid $1 per day and forced to live in rancid conditions while working 16 hours a day. Given the choice, I'd take $20 to be humiliated on camera for an hour. That's capitalism. It sucks, but that's how it is.

[WoodrowFan]

120. a very thoughtful post.

thank you.

[bloom]

165. sounds to me

"This is exhausting. The rest of your piece is simply a diatribe against porn, backed by absolutely nothing. Yes, there are offensive, sexist, racist, homophobic images in porn. Guess what, all those things exist outside the porn industry as well. I see them every day and they piss me off every day. It isn't the porn that is the problem, it the racism, sexism etc. Those things are deeply rooted in our society, and until we can address those issues, the porn will never change to reflect it.
<snip>

While we're at it, maybe we can also look at the ways other industries are exploiting their labor. Who do you think makes the clothes you buy, or the goods in your home? Probably someone being paid $1 per day and forced to live in rancid conditions while working 16 hours a day. Given the choice, I'd take $20 to be humiliated on camera for an hour. That's capitalism. It sucks, but that's how it is."


....like you and a lot of other posters are excusing sexism, racism, homophobia and exploitation.

Seems to me the original poster was looking for a little idealism. Like it is possible that people could have porn without sexism, racism, homophobia and exploitation if it were important to enough people. If it were possible to get people to see that respect for each improves society.

Porn lives outside of what is socially acceptable and so sexism, racism, homophobia and exploitation become acceptable within porn.

It wouldn't have to be that way.

[shondradawson]

168. thank you, thank you, thank you

someone (and a couple of others, who really got it)who took the time to read what I had to say.

I tried to elaborate in another post "Focus on the Parables" which was meant to emphasize my point since it was so grievously, if not intentionally, misread.

Again, I thank you.

[shondradawson]

169. How you sounded to me

"Porn lives outside of what is socially acceptable and so sexism, racism, homophobia and exploitation become acceptable within porn."

That statement falls in line with why I used the parallels white men/minority in regards to American social conflicts and conditions to the adult entertainment industry.

There is something to white men creating a fantasy world where the old conditions of degradation, oppression, exploitation, and their exercise of absolute power still exist...strange and sad, really.

[InvisibleBallots]

76. No one has mentionted the best pro-porn argument I ever read

The best pro-porn argument I've ever read went something like this:

As pornography was made illegal and more acceptable in Western societies, it coincided with the rise of feminism and the expansion of women's rights. In societies where pornography is legal, women have a much more equal place in society than where pornography is illegal. There were various speculations as to why this was.

[naryaquid]

80. ...Possible answer: When women are actively suppressed and constricted,

humiliation by porn is not necessary, as women assume more rights and freedoms in society, there is a cultural "backlash" to, in some way, "keep them in their place"...When women start winning in the courts and the work place, men get scared/angry and lash out at them culturally...The hate word "bitch" used as a synonym for women (not as a reference to nasty character) did not become "popular" until the nineteen eighties...It's one step forward, two steps back.

[Withywindle]

84. Another possible answer, though...

is the acknowledgement of sexuality. Look at some of the rationales for oppressive, binding clothing for women (whether it's the burqa or the layers and layers of petticoats): because men can't control themselves if there's any glimpse of part of a female body, all hell breaks loose, they can't help but rape, their souls are damned, yadda yadda.

If straight men are the ones in power, as they usually are, then they are the ones who define who this scary, destabilizing, distracting sex object is. It's women, surprise!

In societies where any representation of sexuality is taboo, then women are oppressed because to male eyes, their very physical existence is a "representation of sexuality."

But in a culture that's more open and yes, desensitized, to sexual imagery and puts a lot less apocalyptic weight on sexual thoughts, then having a woman in a short skirt sitting next to you in your cubicle at work is a lot more likely to be just no big thing.

Just a theory. I can't back it up with anything but it makes sense to me. (I'm a woman, BTW)

I'm not real ra-ra on porn, but I think that the oppressive elements in it are much more symptom than cause.

[jdj]

92. If clothing is an issue, then it makes you wonder

what the rate of rape and sexual assault is among peoples who wear little or no clothing.

I believe each society sets a mental rule beyond which a woman can said to be culpable (societies in which rape is epidemic, like America, that is).

I don't think it's the actual clothing, it's the societal rule and the breaking of which that grants permission in the male mind for rape or masturbation or whatever...

I've always thought that people who regard buildings and spaceships as human progress must also regard the shirt as the greatest human invention, for you rarely find an advanced culture where women go topless as a matter of common daily dress. Probably we'd all be still sitting in huts in men had not migrated to colder climes and had instead been able to sit around and stare at breasts all day.

[Withywindle]

94. Well, some of that...

..is the sexualization of nudity. Many people now only (or primarily) see other people naked in a sexual context, so it carries a certain charge. Breasts might not be as sexualized as they are if people saw women openly nursing babies all over the place in the mall (as they tend to do in cultures where people wear less clothing in general).


But I agree that it's not so much clothing itself: it's taboos and the violation thereof. But who gets to decide what is taboo and what the appropriate penalty for breaking it is?

Fundamentalists of all stripes tend to fall back on cultural taboos as some kind of divine wisdom or natural law, whereas I think there's much to be gained from examining their sources and the deep-rooted effects they have on us and sorting out which ones are actually useful to society and which are just oppressive superstitions.

[NashVegas]

187. Just One Thing

Porn has been with us for as long as human expression has been with us. Porn's recent (past 150 years) rise to popularity rose with commercialism / consumerism in general.

Porn has been responsible for the proliferation and success of so many mediums and technological advances, it's almost ridiculous: photography, VRCs, the internet (the off-campus internet was built and financed by porn until the big players came along), digital cameras and recorders - you name it.

The hate word "bitch" used as a synonym for women (not as a reference to nasty character) did not become "popular" until the nineteen eighties...

I'm not sure how you define popular. I suspect you think it did not become popular until the 1980s because it was only in the 1980s that FCC restrictions were loosened. I assure you, the term was used far prior to that by many people not speaking in the media.

[naryaquid]

232. .....As for the term "bitch" being "used by many people not using the

media", yeah, you're probably right there...but not anyone I would associate with...mysogynists and all 'round low-classers, maybe...The problem is allowing it in the media "increased it's circulation"..and, "acceptability", at least to an extent.

..I remember a good male friend of mine in the mid - to - late seventies describing a guy he met...He said there was something he really didn't like about the guy and that was that "he refers to women, generally,as "bitches"...He said this with obvious distaste...and he was no choir boy, either...He was a musician, very hip, very smart.

[jdj]

88. you confusicated me.

your first illegal should be legal.

I'd really hate to expound on why these points are true, because it breaks the silence of that secret about how much religion affects our lives, and most liberals and moderates prefer to stay in the dark about it...but it all has to do with religion and it's death grip on the reproductive organs of every specific woman alive.

[InvisibleBallots]

91. yes, it should be "legal" not illegal

too late to edit it now.

[last1standing]

102. Possible answer: Freedom of Choice.

When we gain more freedom it is conducive to good and bad, not that I equate pornography with either. The same laws that allow us to speak freely on this web site allows freepers to do the same on theirs. With freedom comes duty, with rights comes responsibility. I have the right to look at porn and the responsibility to protect others freedom of speech even when I do not agree with it. The other side of the coin is censorship that leads to theocracy.

Personally, I prefer the freedom of choice. If you don't like porn, don't look at it. I don't like country music so I don't listen to it. Seems easy enough to me.

[Walt Starr]

86. I disaree with graphic fucking on film

but I'll defend to the death their right to fuck away!

[markkernes]

96. Perhaps You're Not As Knowledgeable About Porn As You Think

As Senior Editor of Adult Video News (AVN), I'm amazed (but not surprised) at the amount of misinformation contained in the opening post.

As a Board member of the Free Speech Coalition and head of their Public Relations Committee, I orchestrated the adult industry's response to the Senate Subcommittee hearing on "The Science Behind Pornography Addiction," the record of which now includes two proffered written testimonials which we solicited, by well-known, published sex researchers, and had we been informed of the hearing in advance, we would have had several more. My own article on the LACK of science behind porn addiction is available at AVN.com. I assure all that the industry would have had several witnesses ready to testify live at the hearing had we had prior notice. The "science" which the Subcommittee heard was in fact NO science; all reputable, peer-reviewed sex researchers sharply disagree with the conclusions of the Subcommittee's witnesses.

The poster is of course free to believe anything she wishes about the adult industry, but her information is clearly not based on in-depth contact with the industry, and I would be skeptical as to whether the people quoted had any more knowledge than the poster.

The poster castigates AVN for being:

< notorious for its omissions concerning the widespread drug, alcohol, physical and sexual abuse, veneral disease, fraud, racketerring, blackmail, and abduction that pollute an already dirty industry, because AVN is sponsored by (surprise) the porn producers >

Clearly, the writer is unfamiliar with the adult industry and has simply accepted the many widespread lies published about it without doing any investigation of her own. The incidence of drug and alcohol use in porn is not greater than their use in the general population. The industry has occasional outbreaks of Chlamydia and gonorrhea, but in the seven years that the industry's rigorous testing program, by Adult Industry Medical (AIM) Healthcare Foundation, has been in existence, there have been a total of three (3) cases of HIV; a significantly smaller percentage than in any other sexually-active group. Physical and sexual abuse by industry members of one another in their private lives is likewise no greater than in the general population, and is likely a lot less. Such apparent on-screen abuse is staged for the camera much as it is in Hollywood. Surely the poster does not believe that when Sylvester Stallone shoots someone on-screen, that that person is dead?! And while some video companies put pictures on their boxcovers of starlets who do not appear in the movie inside, which I suppose constitutes "fraud," there is otherwise NO "fraud, racketering (sic), blackmail (or) abduction" that takes place in the industry. Simply put, the poster is grossly misinformed.

And yes, AVN, as the trade magazine of the industry, IS "sponsored by... the porn producers." ALL trade magazines are sponsored by the industries they serve.

Likewise, the poster is seriously misinformed about who watches porn. In 2002, more than 800 million tapes and disks were rented, and while AVN's statistics do not break down porn purchasers and renters by race, it is inconceivable that blacks, Asians and Hispanics are not among that number -- a fact that could easily be confirmed by asking any adult store clerk. Our statistics do show, however, that approximately 22 percent of customers of adult video stores are women, either alone, with other women or with men. That, of course, leaves 78 percent of the customers to be male, but what is unknown is how many of them have simply been delegated to do the porn shopping for the couple. I'm guessing, further, that women are the majority of buyers of romance novels, but somehow, that's not something to castigate women for (nor should it be).

Finally, it's unclear what the poster has against masturbation, but rest assured, the adult industry supports her (and everyone else's) right to do so.

[InvisibleBallots]

100. greetings, markkernes

I'd like to ask a question, since you are probably more knowledgable then most here - I have been reading that porn production in Brazil is booming, and many US based producers are making porn there.

How much are you paying these Brazilian women per hour/film?

Thanks in advance.

[benburch]

103. Ummm...

I don't think that Mark is paying them anything at all. That's not his job.

[InvisibleBallots]

104. uh, I meant the industry, obviously

But then again you probably knew that. So can anyone answer? How much are US Porn Corporations paying women in Brazil per hour/film?

[benburch]

105. Yeah, sorry. I was being a grammar cop.

I usually don't indulge that bad habit.

[Porcupine]

106. More than sugar workers, gold miners, loggers, ect.

In general a sex worker earns per hour what a skilled laborer makes in several DAYS labor. Porn stars make more.

On screen talent for porn is, on average, a much healthier specimen than the populace of their hometown. There are few or none, overweight, diabetic porn stars with active skin ulcers due to type II diabetes. There are dozens in the small town that I live in.

Sex workers all seem to have ten fingers and toes. I cannot say the same for the construction crews I work with. Judging from the photographic evidence working in porn is either a) an extremely healthy occupation or b) we are hiding all the physically damaged porn stars in a camp somewhere.

When sex work is a dangerous as construction, fishing or farm work I will listen to a call for change. Not till then.

[InvisibleBallots]

107. okay

"There are few or none, overweight, diabetic porn stars with active skin ulcers due to type II diabetes."

Oh come on - obviously they are not going to be paying overweight diabetic people with ulcers to star in porn movies - and before someone points me to the Diabetic Ulcer section of the porn store, yes, I'm sure there are exceptions that prove the rule.

As for "hiding all the physically damaged porn stars in a camp somewhere" - I'm sure if there are physically damaged porn stars, they aren't being featured as spokespeople for the porn industry.

If porn is such a great job for Brazilian women, perhaps we should open a vocational school or something, to give the girls a head start?

[benburch]

109. The average hourly wage in Brazil is $3.02 an hour.

(Or was a year or so ago.)

Some sources (also from a year or so ago) indicated that the going rate for Brazilian porn actresses was $175 per scene, or the equivalent of 60 hours average wages.

And that is average wages, mind you. Women make up to 48% less than men in Brazil, and so it would be unlikely for woman to find any comparable employment.

[InvisibleBallots]

110. I don't believe that statistic at all

Sorry, $175 an hour? Don't believe it. Perhaps the largest companies are paying that to the most famous stars, but I don't believe that's anywhere close what the average woman is making in porn.

But if it's true - why aren't we building porn schools to train women for what would be the best job in Brazil?

[benburch]

117. You ask me to research the matter and then call me a liar?

Go to hell.

[InvisibleBallots]

122. no, I think you are being truthful

You said you remembered a source that said 175, and I assume you are telling the truth. I'm just skeptical of the source. Sorry, I didn't meant to imply you were lying.

[benburch]

123. Fair enough.

It wasn't a source I remember, but one I looked up.

[InvisibleBallots]

125. okay, can you post it?

thanks

[benburch]

128. Here from a google cached article

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:XPuoEP2kt7QJ:www.wftv.com/employment/3239938/detail.html+%22brazilian+porn+industry%22+wages&hl=en

"American X-rated film directors are heading to Brazil in search of uninhibited women, exotic locations and cheap production costs. The going rate for a Brazilian X-rated actress is about $175 per sex scene -- a fraction of what talent in the Los Angeles area costs."

----------
And on the average wage...

http://www.imdiversity.com/Villages/Careers/articles/hicks_average_worker.asp <--- Where the $3.02 figure came from.

http://www.ilru.org/ideas/pages/demographics.htm <--- Says 75 cents! But it is a decade old.

[benburch]

130. And on the huge gender-based wage gap in Brazil...

http://womenshistory.about.com/library/ency/blwh_brazil.htm

[InvisibleBallots]

131. thank you

[benburch]

133. Any time.

[phylny]

277. Per scene, not per hour.

I would imagine that a scene could take much more than an hour to film, no?

[WoodrowFan]

293. that's a good question....

do any DUers with experience in the Industry have a comment??

[benburch]

384. Depends...

A 20 minute scene can take 30 minutes to do if everything goes OK.

There is minimal prep, and no lines to memorize in most "gonzo" type porn, and the scenes are a single unedited cut. And guys just don't take all that long to get off even if they are "porn studs."

Sometimes, in a multiple camera shoot, with actual dialog and makeup and extras and etc, it could take 3 hours. But there is usually not that much involved.

This is based on a conversation I recently had with a performer.

[Boosterman]

417. Depends on the talent ;) eom

[Porcupine]

111. Porn IS a great job for many 2nd and 3rd world women....

in fact it must be a great thing for many U.S. women. After all there are "Girls of the Ivy League" pictorials in Playboy all the time. These are women who attend the top U.S. universities. They have the brains, the money and the connections to do what they want and they want to take their clothes off. Look at Paris Hilton for example. (actually don't she's way underfed)

For a woman in Russian or Poland the thought of making several years income in a few weeks must have some appeal. They are literally producing the stuff at such a rate that you could never veiw it all if that was all you did 24/7.

I say again, it beats most "hands on" jobs in energy, agriculture, fishing or technology. No solvents, toxics, crushing machines, or backbreaking loads. When porn starts destroying bodies at the rate Safeway does come back with evidence.

If there were dozens of women whose bodies were destroyed by porn (not boyfriends, drugs or alcohol mind; just the actual work on camera) I'm sure the Xtian Taliban would have trotted them out on Fox News by now. They just don't exist.

[InvisibleBallots]

173. The best job many poor women can aspire too

I suppose this makes me an anti-sex prude, but I find that sad.

[benburch]

237. What is so sad about it?

I just don't get it.

Would it be less sad if she were being paid the same to clean up a hazardous waste site?

Would it be less sad if she were being paid the same to do deep hardhat salvage?

Would it be less sad if she were being paid the same to do high steel construction?

I've just named three of the most dangerous jobs on the planet. All are considered to be proper employment for persons of either sex. All can kill you dead or cripple you horribly.

In contrast, all the woman we are discussing has to do is have sex with a well-hung, fairly attractive guy in a nice hotel room. And with HIV testing and condoms, even the risk of STDs becomes nearly zero.

What's not to like?

[InvisibleBallots]

307. you don't get it

Maybe your mother gets it? Maybe your sister gets it? Ask them.

[benburch]

385. Well, my grandmother...

always had nice things to say about the women who worked in the nearby brothel...

So you are barking up the wrong tree here, buddy.

[InvisibleBallots]

411. you expected her to be rude to them?

How does that follow exactly? Let's assume your grandmother thought it was sad - what is she supposed to do, be rude to them?

[shondradawson]

309. You can get at least $200.00 an hour yourself

there is a market for male sex-workers, too, you know.

Many women in the sex trade are lesbians, which makes it easier to separate business from pleasure.

You could do the same and make really good cash since you seem to have no problems with it.

If you'd like, you can send me a Du message and I can give you info as to who to call.

You mentioned well-hung, fairly attractive men in nice hotel rooms as if that should be inviting to anyone.

Would you like an invitation?
Would any of the men here like an invitation?
Talk the talk...walk the walk.

[InvisibleBallots]

350. heh heh, I like you shondradawson

Please stay on DU :)

[benburch]

386. Ahem...

You just don't know my history, do you?

I do stuff like that for free. And if they would PAY me for it, Woo Hoo! But I'm much too old these days and out of shape. Not like when I was a football player.

If you can get me the gig, I'm there.

Also, I can only read your remark as deeply homophobic. Would you care to comment?

[Boosterman]

418. 200.00 per hour???? whats that num

hmmmm. maybe not. tempting though ;)

[Nadienne]

236. Emotional damage doesn't leave much physical evidence.

Though I suppose there wouldn't be much emotional damage if sex is only a physical experience. And maybe it is for some of them.

But that's not true for everyone. And I bet there are a few porn stars suffering emotional damage.

Btw, taking your clothes off in front of a camera is, imo, not in the same league as having sex in front of a camera.

[TankLV]

324. Actually, there are a lot of "nitches" in the porn business than even I

could ever dream of!

It is amazing what some people will view/buy. Of course THEY are the degenerates. What I view/buy is fine and dandy.

That last sentence was sarcasm, for those of you on your moral high horse.

You DO know that those who preach the loudest against a subject are most likely doing the very same thing they chastize OTHERS for!

[0rganism]

114. I did see one less-abled woman in a magazine about 20 years ago

Both her legs were unformed beyond the knee, IIRC. I don't remember if it was a congenital defect, as she wore striped leggings throughout the spread, but I am fairly confident that it had nothing whatsoever to do with occupational injuries sustained in the sex trade. At the time, my hormone-inflamed mind didn't think much beyond, "Whoa, she's hot!" Yet in retrospect, I'd say I am grateful to the magazine's producers for being open enough to let her model in one of the more mainstream publications. Rather than play her up as handicapped, they presented her as a very attractive & fit woman with a strong libido -- just like all the women in the magazine with two full working legs. Besides the lower legs, there was nothing in the photographs that was significantly different from what the other models were doing.

Also of interest, that is the first and last time I recall seeing a paraplegic woman modeling for anything. Of course, there are probably some who do closeup hand modeling for jewelry or face modeling for eyewear, but I mean in such a way that the viewer could tell that the model was disabled. It just isn't done, from what I see, which really isn't a whole lot now that I think about it more. Was her photoshoot fetishist in some way, intended to directly exploit her handicap? Perhaps -- hell, I'll go so far as to say probably. But in retrospect, it was also remarkably egalitarian. Could a woman with that kind of handicap model swimsuits in America? Could she demo weightlifting and cardio fitness equipment? Sure she could, but it's not happening AFAICT. Let me know if you ever see a woman without legs modeling apparel.

[Nadienne]

230. Romance novels...

Some romance novels teach women to be submissive to men, that it's okay if their boyfriend/husband/fiance emotionally or physically abuses them, that sex is the boyfriend/husband/fiance's priveledge, that women are abnormal if they don't like or want sex. Furthermore, romance novels imply that a woman is nothing unless she is with a man.

Romance novels, in my opinion, are as harmful to women as pornography.

But I have no desire to tell people what they should or should not do. Go ahead and buy pornos and romance novels, if you enjoy it. I just think that it's emotionally destructive to women, much like cigarettes and alcohol are physically destructive.

[MaraJade]

492. Some romance novels

are porn. Have you ever READ some of them?

[last1standing]

101. Okay, I've read your screed "paragraph by paragraph".

What would you like me to say other than you have decided that "white men" are single handedly responsible for the great evil of pornography and it's subjugation of women and "minorities" everywhere? If someone had written this and substituted "black" for "white" there would be howling from everyone that it was racist. Therefore, I'm calling this the same.

You've not provided any proof for your opinions and have used the "Ken Starr" method of inserting the most salacious and provocative wording possible to emphasize a dubious argument. So provide us with some verifiable facts or admit this is nothing more than a hit piece against white men. If you can't then I'd say you're letter is nothing more than porn, itself.

[essarhaddon]

112. Sex and exploitation

A video depicting a consenting white man sodomizing a consenting black woman is just a biological fact, and if you see domination/exploitation here it's a subjective thing, a product of your education or culture. Fucking is not, per se, dominating or exploiting, it's just a biological phenomenon. Now, if you depict a white man sodomizing a black woman who has been somehow forced to be sodomized (because she needed the money or for some reason had no choice) then that is exploitation and it's (in my personal opinion) reprehensible. The question is, do you think that most women in the porn industry have been forced to work in that industry or had no other choice than pornography?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

414. Actually In Most Porn It's Reversed...

The lion's hare of interracial porn is black man/white woman not white man/black woman...

[double_helix]

115. one day porn will be outlawed,

or severely sanitized to the point that it won't matter to it's current fanbase.

There are too many forces on the right, left and center working towards the outlaw of pornography and many other "vices". The thinking is: as long as it's not my vice, and as long as it goes against my worldview, then it's bad and must be outlawed.

Although these political groups don't work together and in fact, detest each other most of the time, the one thing that seems to unite them is destruction of the Constitution. Sen. Joe Lieberman and Tipper Gore's collaboration with the right to "clean up" Hollywood and the recording industry comes to mind.

The Christian fundamentalists are always a scare, but there is a threat on the liberal Democratic side that didn't really exist before the 90's. I believe this has not come from the left wing of the Democratic Party, but from it's moderate wing: the so-called "soccer mom"/nanny agenda, the same agenda which is working to outlaw firearms. These are the people to fear most on the left, because they are very powerful. They are the middle-to-upper class suburban woman, the Katie Couric/Rosie O'Donnel/Oprah types who tend to be overly nurturing and "informative", and have a certain "mother knows best" attitude. These people would have no trouble working with the Christian Right to outlaw pornography, IMO. As long as it's "for the children", these moderate women will find a way to get any law passed. As I stated, they are very powerful - perhaps the second most powerful demographic (in terms of buying power and voter power) behind white conservative men.

I strongly believe the issue of porn has more to do with the differences between men and women than race, class, sexual orientation or anything else. I am a straight minority male. I lived in Flushing, NY for several years and most men I knew watched porn. The local adult store was minority owned, and most customers were minority men. Many of the biggest porn stars are minorities: Lexington Steele, an African-American man, is probably the biggest star in the industry right now. I am willing to bet that males of all demographics watch about the same amount of porn, even gay men. This is because the male sexual psychology is fundamentally different to the female, IMO. Men tend to prefer a sexual experience which is very primal and physical, with clearly defined dominants and submissives, with variety, novelty and anonymity, with a strong focus on body parts - not personalities or emotions. Most women (especially middle aged wives) who view porn for the first time are usually horrified and don't understand it. What they don't realize is that most men don't understand why women find soap operas and romance novels stimulating.

What women should understand is that men who produce porn and men who consume it are not doing it to personally or socio-politically degrade women, but for personal pleasure and entertainment. It is more about fantasy and role playing than anything else. The female sex worker is put on a pedestal by the fans and the producers outside of the fantasy world of the porn movie. Especially with regards to the younger generation, there is no sense that the woman is unequal in the arrangement. In fact, the female sex worker is in a position of cultural power. "Porno chic" is a major trend: most female celebrities like Britney Spears, Paris Hilton and many others take their style from the porn industry. These women are not in a position of cultural submission, but of cultural dominance. This, I believe is what shapes the pro-sex worldview of the "third-wave" feminists, i.e. that women can be sexy, uninhibited and powerful, that they can pretend to be submissive and "act like a whore" in their art - but expect to be respected and treated as equals once the camera stops rolling.

Where I would agree with critics is that the sex industry needs more regulation as far as safety and worker's rights are concerned. But I'm completely opposed to any agenda which seeks to censor content (unless there are children involved, which should be illegal and is illegal).

[NashVegas]

190. I Fear It's Sanitation More Than Anything

Now that the big boys (ie, mainstream corporations) are getting into porn, the government is going to want to regulate the hell out of it (so to speak), more so than currently. And of course, they've got to maximize profits ...

Porn SHOULD BE dangerous. When porn and sex are no longer dangerous, they will have lost their power as a tool against social restrictions.

As one writer put it, (paraphrasing), "there was no coincidence that the great social upheaval of the 1960s came with the same wind as the sexual revolution."

[T Town Jake]

119. So, you & Jerry Falwell are batting on the same team...

...congrats! :eyes:

[Tsiyu]

121. Thank you for this

At the risk of getting flamed ( and some people will and always do when it's a porn issue) I agree that equating the right to porn with civil rights struggles is a bit much for my taste.

I enjoy and appreciate erotic art and imagery. Most porn today is not of an erotic nature, but of a degrading nature. I have heard the men speak who purchase the flicks regularly. They speak of the women in films being "used up" and "old meat." And I, as a woman, should feel so much sympathy for these "sick fucks?" I should care deeply that they get their "Humiliate another human" fix?

Sorry, folks. I'm not running any campaigns to eliminate porn ( 90% of American men would no longer have a sex life in that case!) but I am not going to listen to men whine about thier precious porn either. The women in the industry get paid in pennies while the filmmakers make millions. The women are afforded no health care, most of the time asked to work without any protection, and the men who claim "there's nothing wrong with porn" then turn around and treat these women like crap. So much for "uplifting the rights of women."

Oh, I know it's not about a woman's right to anything. Women should just shut the hell up and accept some men's screwed-up notions of sex and sexuality. And at the risk of even more flames, I'll say that the American male's addiction to porn is the main reason I refuse to date American men. Yes. Yes, I know European men and Asian men and Muslim men watch porn and degrade women, too. But it seems some Americans take porn too seriously. They actually believe the women in these flicks are having a good time. They actually believe real women want to be treated that way.

Instead of purchasing books and videos that will teach them how to be insightful, pleasing lovers, they'd rather watch a chick getting banged and pretend that is real human sexuality. (And they wonder why no woman wants them?) I grew tired of the American male penchant for groping and forgetting that little thing called foreplay. I've had female freinds tell me that their male partners have to watch the flicks during intercourse or they can't complete the act. So much for those gals feeling special.

Oh, yeah. You'll always have your porn, guys. No worry there. Very important, wealthy white males will see to it that you always have a ready supply. But think about this. If you NEED porn, you may just be an uncreative, inhuman, unloveable slob. And when people say, "I don't understand why some people are so consumed with what others are doing in the privacy of their bedrooms," I always think, "Well, if they weren't so consumed with curiosity over others' sex lives, the porn industry would be nonexistent."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

124. How About Gay Porn... How About Lesbian Porn...

How about transgendered porn...


Who's getting exploited there...


I don't see the big deal about a man or woman wanting to watch a man have sex with another man, a man have sex with a woman, a man have sex with a transgendered female , a woman have sex with another woman,or any variation thereof...

Porn makes the normal straight or gay guy horny... It doesn't turn him into a predator or a boorish lover.....

I also would suggest that there are a lot more gay men and women who dig porn than you believe...


As for American men I think any study would show they are more egalitarian than their European and Asian counterparts... The indirect suggestion that woman enjoy a higher status in the Muslim world is quite telling...

[Tsiyu]

132. Indirect suggestion, HUH?

Okie dokie. Left out the gay and lesbian porn because I'm a hetero.

LIKE I SAID: I ENJOY AND APPRECIATE EROTIC ART AND IMAGERY. I AM NOT ADVOCATING CENSORSHIP.

You may think porn is the best thing since manna rained down from heaven. More power to you. Wank on, friend.

My point is that the best lovers don't need it, and that some folks' fixation with it may not be so healthy for their sex lives or their partners.

Do I know women and gays who watch and enjoy porn? Did * steal another election? Poeple who don't enjoy modern porn aren't all necessarily fundies locked away from society. Some of us are progressive, normal, everyday people who think most porn is designed to appeal to twelve-year-olds.

Non-American men (FROM MY EXPERIENCE- RESULTS MAY VARY!) are not as naive as American men. Many American men believe everything they see. They are lazy and do not appreciate the sublime. They actually think the porn they watch is training them to be better lovers. (tee hee)
So, you choose wanking off to images - over sex with actual breathing adult humans? Bully for you! I choose to date non-American men for that reason. Bully for me! We're all happy now, huh?

[sui generis]

136. here's the test:

is there ANY porn you like?

Just as in the art and literature world, there are 999 pieces of shit for every gem you might encounter, and a lot of non-talent hacks claiming to be the mainstream of the industry.

It's not a matter of superiority - you were kind of offensive on a lot of levels in the post I'm responding to. It's not an obsession, not all American men are like 12 year olds, and it's not about trying to be a better lover by wanking off. A lot of generalizations.

It's bizarre to be defending porn, actually, but my instinct says that IT DOESN'T AFFECT MY PERSONAL LIFE AT ALL. So I really don't give a damn, so long as it's all legal and between consenting adults.

Really. And if the problem is the shit that arrives in your inbox - then the problem is your mail filter and spammers, not the porn.

[Tsiyu]

142. Like I said, to each his own

You can tell me why you dislike those who dislike porn.

You can be offensive about it. Many have on many threads on DU. If you don't like porn, and you think it's ridiculous the way some folks act as if it's as important an issue as, say, equal pay and rights for women, you will be called many names.

If you think that those who hold their porn tapes tight to their chests claiming "Persecution" with a video store on every corner are as confusing as the Christians who claim persecution with a church on every corner, you will be flamed on DU.

I like erotic images, kama sutra, tantric, spiritual, freeing, powerful sexual imagery. I'm an artist who has drawn many nudes. The stuff most men buy today is just adolescent wet dream crap.

And my mind is infinitely more creative and sexy than some strange filmaker's.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

138. You Can't Be Serious....

"You may think porn is the best thing since manna rained down from heaven. More power to you. Wank on, friend."


Lots of straight, lesbian, gay, transexual , and bisexual folks watch porn without getting addicted or thinking it's a gift from the gods.


"Non-American men (FROM MY EXPERIENCE- RESULTS MAY VARY!) are not as naive as American men. Many American men believe everything they see. They are lazy and do not appreciate the sublime. They actually think the porn they watch is training them to be better lovers. (tee hee)"

You would have to be a retard to reflexively emulate what you see in a movie...


Do you really think the average American guy thinks all women dig all the acts they perform in porn?

"So, you choose wanking off to images - over sex with actual breathing adult humans? Bully for you! I choose to date non-American men for that reason. Bully for me! We're all happy now, huh?"


That's always a big one with the anti-porn crowd...

That a man should be ashamed for masturbating... It's funny they never imply that with a woman when it comes to porn...

I prefer the real thing and have enjoyed it quite routinely but I do find porn erotic....

Shame on to me....

[Tsiyu]

145. Nothing wrong with masturbation

I happen to think Jocylen Elders was right on ( and I probably spelled her name wrong, too).

But when a man is with a living, breathing person and he can't figure out how to get off without watching a flick, I just have to laugh. Sorry. I happen to know of more than a few situations like this. Perhaps porn is like nasal spray to some guys?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

148. I Agree...

If a man substitutes pornography for human contact he has a problem but what about men who can not find partners....

I also agree with your earlier point that a man who expects his partner to replicate what an actor does in a porn film has major problems...


I would porn and pot in the same category... Two relatively minor vices which used in moderation can be fun...

[Tsiyu]

153. If a partner is into replicating that

then it is consensual.

It isn't the individual act here or there which I find problematic. It is the lack of pacing and nuance and humanity I find in guys who use a lot of porn. They are used to instant gratification. They have NO CLUE how to have "real sex."

I can't explain that without getting too graphic for this board, but I believe other women will back me up on this. And I am hetero, so I cannot even PRETEND to speak for the gay and lesbian side of this.

[Eloriel]

171. Oh, yes, indeed

It simultaneously amuses and horrifies me to think that ANY male thinks that what goes on in porn flicks is the kind of sex most women (any women?) enjoy or appreciate. At ALL.

Which thoughts then cause me to wonder, with equal amusement and horror, exactly what kind of warped ideas about sex (and how little "real life experience"?) the PRODUCERS of porn really have.

Intended for 12 - 14 year olds strikes me as about right. That's the only conclusion I can come to, other than the warped ideas/inexperience of the producers of porn.

[Tsiyu]

176. Does make you wonder, huh?

I suppose if someone force-feeds you pablum and that's all there is to eat, that's all you will consume.

[quaker bill]

358. Sorry to hear that.

The women I have been with, while admittedly only a small sample, have consistently been more adventurous than I in that direction.

You do seem to have a fondness for generalizing your experience to large groups of others. From your posts, it would seem that you know more about how women feel (or should feel) than they do themselves.

[Artemis Bunyon]

396. "wank on"? "the best lovers don't need it"?

Sounds to me like you're a sexual supremacist, my friend.

[double_helix]

140. And I'm willing to bet that there's a corellation between

societies that don't allow pornography or anything else "disturbing" and between the real oppression of women in everyday life, and with abnormal male social/sexual behavior due to repression of fantasies. (Maybe the guys in Middle Eastern countries wouldn't be so obsessed with politics and world domination if they "took a load off" now and then) :)

What goes on in the average porn flick is what goes on in the mind of the average male - it is the average male fantasy he has from the time he goes into puberty until male menopause (and the dynamics of the fantasies are the same whether one is a straight or gay male -just the objects are different). I would dare to say that porn is a valve that allows modern Western society to function properly - men get to indulge their sexual fantasies without hurting anyone, without feeling the need to look outside the marriage for that particular type of stimulation. Most wives and girlfriends don't want to do the things that happen in porn, and would be offended if their man asked them to -- despite all the sentimental pop-psychology talk about "encourage him tell you what he likes".

The thing that should trouble Western men of all political stripes is the way many Western women (of all political stripes) tend to believe their fantasies, habits and vices to be morally superior to ours. Being a moralist isn't just about religion, it's about attempting to impose your personal moral values on others -- on people who are not breaking the spirit or the letter of the law.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

144. Yes...

I doubt the average guy thinks porn is a reproduction of human life...


If a man thinks a movie or image is real life then the problem is with him and not the movie or image...

[Tsiyu]

147. I'm not moralizing, just stating nuts and bolts

I DON'T want to have sex with a guy who has to have porn. And so who is moralizing? Am I BAD because that is MY preference?


What you see with porn are the fantasies of the men and women bold enough to make porn. If you peeked into the mind of every human, you would get a glimpse of many more fantasies than the few tired and true ones you get in various incarnations with modern porn. But not everyone is inclined to make porn, nor do we all have the funds to put our fantasies on film.

If you need modern porn to get off, and that is your fantasy sex life, great. You are not a bad person, but you are not someone I would be interested in dating. That's all.

[naryaquid]

127. Thanks, Buddyhollysghost, you are absolutely right in saying that

most porn now is of a degrading, not erotic nature...It's anti-female propaganda, as Susan Brownmiller said in "Against Our Will"...and, as she said (I paraphrase) "the liberal mind, which is so quick to grasp the connection between denigrating words and the persecution of Blacks or Jews, is woefully obdurate when it comes to the treatment of women...The worst sind of all is to appear puritanical or "uncool"...Meanwhile, we suffer.
Btw, there have been studies that have shown that male exposure to porn, especially violent porn, DOES decrease male respect and empathy for females.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

129. how about gay porn and transgendered porn

Who's getting exploited there?

And isn't it paternalistic to think there aren't women who love to copulate and don't mind if others are watching...

[Tsiyu]

150. I didn't go into individual fantasies

No fantasy is "wrong" in my opinion.

It's just that the theme of most of the modern hetero porn flicks is the same old tired crap. And if you like that theme, there you go....

[naryaquid]

225. ...No, I would disagree...with Gays you're talking about the same gender..

..The subject of heterosexual porn can't be dealt with without getting into the sexual politics BETWEEN the genders...The fact is, men are generally PHYSICALLY stronger than women and have, since time immemorial, taken advantage of that fact to make themselves SOCIALLY/POLITICALLY stronger than women as well....The (at best) predatory element, and at worst, sadistic elements of porn make them psychologically threatening to many, many women. It's been called "social terrorism". And I have, at times, felt it intensely.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

266. According To You It's O K If Someone Watches

a guy penetrate another guy as long as that guy penetrates him back....


a guy penetrate a transgendered female as long as she can penetrate him back....


a woman penetrate another woman with a toy as long as that woman penetrates her back


a woman or man masturabate...


So, the only thing in your classification scheme that is verboten is watching a man penetrate another woman...

Well, that still leaves us a lot to watch...

[naryaquid]

345. ...I NEVER SAID ANYTHING LIKE THIS.. .READ MY RESPONSE AGAIN!

I simply said "I'm not gay, so I can't speak for them..Unless you're gay, I don't think you can either".:eyes:

[Tsiyu]

137. Thanks, it takes guts to speak against porn on DU

I happen to have PTSD and smoke to relieve symptoms and think cannibis should be completely legal.

Do I then say, "100% of Americans smoke weed!"?????

The people on here who claim that ALL men look at porn do the very thing I described above.

But all men DO NOT enjoy porn, and those who have - on this thread- suggested that a wife doesn't know whether her own hubbie does or does not are really stepping over the line, implying they "know" more than another about that person's own private life. How the HELL do people get so damned omnipresent that they know all about other people's sex lives?

I submit that porn addiction creates the lack of empathy you describe, naryaquid, as well as this attitude of assuming that everyone has to have the same fix the porn addict does.

Personally, I think if a man needs porn to figure out sex, he is a very unimaginative person and would make a lousy lover.


And imagine if there was a billion dollar industry depicting blacks being whipped and lynched by whites, or Muslims gangraping Christians "just for fun and to release a bit of tension"?????????

[DemocratSinceBirth]

141. Define Addiction

"I submit that porn addiction creates the lack of empathy you describe, naryaquid, as well as this attitude of assuming that everyone has to have the same fix the porn addict does"


Define porn addiction...


Any addiction is bad if it interferes with a persons life... I think most folks here were defending the causual or recreational use of porn...



I have watched porn and have the most respect for women, gays, bisexuals, and transgendered females all of whom I have seen in pornographic images....

[Tsiyu]

143. Well you are a good person then

Is that what you all want to hear?

YES, YOU CAN BE A NICE PERSON AND ENJOY PORN.

Feel better?

Addiction would be defined as the individual would define it for himself or herself. When someone becomes hostile or irrational about a habit, that might indicate addiction to me.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

146. Porn Habits....

With access to the net porn is ubiquitous...


I have a girlfriend...


The last time I saw a pornographic image on the net was about a week ago.... The last porn tape I rented was about two months ago...


The adult bookstore in Orlando is well lit and clean... When I do go there I'm amazed at the amount of women shopping there,many of whom are alone...

I guess one could say they are their under the hypnotic trance of their boyfriend or spouse but they seem to be there because they like the movies, the provocative clothing, or the adult toys...

I just think that with the advent of the net and the vcr and dvd any attempt to outlaw porn is futile...

[Tsiyu]

149. Um, I never advocated outlawing porn

Please refer to my first post.

I merely stated why I don't enjoy it and why I don't think it helps American men very much. But they like it so who the hell am I to say anything?

And no one is suggesting you are addicted.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

152. Yes

Porn addiction which is part of a sex addiction is a problem...


My problem is with anti-porn advocates who want to eliminate porn because some porn is degrading...


I just think that saying straight white men arethe only people who dig porn is simplistic.....

[naryaquid]

216. You're right. In fact Brownmiller made that very same point in

"Against Our Will"...I believe she prefaced her statement about the "obudurate Liberal consciousness" with something like, "If the bookstores of Time Square were filled with material describing the joys of lynching Blacks or gassing Jews, instead of the rape and torture of women which they currently are, they'd be off the shelves in no time.
..She wrote this book in the middle or late seventies and even THEN she described "adult" book stores as having separate shelves of porn marked with titles like "mutilation".
Clearly,, this sort of thing is egregiously anti-social and should be done away with...there's simply no way to legally satisfy those desires and the perusers of this shit need a shrink.

A woman's right to live - safely - as a first class person outweighs some sick guy's "right" to an erection based on an industry's pandering to his sadistic fantasies.

..'Nuff said!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

245. I Have Never Seen The "Mutilation" Section...

How about gay porn?


If a man penetrates another man and that man turns around and penetrates him who's being exploited?

[naryaquid]

248. I'm not gay so I can't speak for them...unless you're gay, I don't think

you can speak for them, either.

[TankLV]

327. Brownmiller is one very sick disturbed woman.

That is certain.

Just as sick and disturbed as those holy rollers who tried to outlaw booze.

Live and let live.

Here's a clue for the clueless:

50% of the population admit they masturbate.
The rest are liars.

[naryaquid]

347. ...I don't think you're listening....or reading what was said...

..Neither Brownmiller nor I is against masturbation...We're against indulging sick, anti-female fantasies which may or may not be cloaked in a sexual context.
..Read the message again.

[TankLV]

443. She is on a jihad against pornography.

She needs to get out more - get a life.

I'm into gay porn, so I don't watch straignt porn - and there are some things I wouldn't dream of watching - but I exercise my CHOICE not to watch it.

I've read her spew very carefully. And stand by my observations.

[bloom]

459. That is really rich to equate her with terrorists

while you apologize for the degradation of others. Even stuff you "wouldn't dream of watching...."


Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UN)
Article 5.

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

----------

To hear people around here talk...people should not be subject to degradation unless they agree to make porn and then they can be degraded without limit.

The making of (at least some) hardcore porn reminds me of women ( or men?) who are in an abusive relationship who refuse to press charges against their aggressors. Some prosecutors go ahead and press charges because they see there was a crime whether the woman (man) wants to say so or not. Some don't.

It's all in how you perceive it.

[WoodrowFan]

177. most porn now is of a degrading, not erotic nature

do you have any stats to back that up? Something from an unbaised source, not from the anti-porn Dworkins of the world (or from the Porn producers either).

[The Magistrate]

193. It Cannot Be Backed Up, Sir

The two things cannot be distinguished by any objective standard; what one person perceives as erotic, another may perceive as degrading, and there is no way whatever to maintain one is right and the other wrong, save perhaps a stick across a skull....

"If your sexual fantasies were truely of interest to others, they would no longer be fantasies.'

[InvisibleBallots]

199. by the way, Mr Magistrate, I love that sig line

"If your sexual fantasies were truely of interest to others, they would no longer be fantasies."

Hilarious and profound!

[The Magistrate]

209. You May Thank Ms. Fran Liebowitz For It, Mr. Ballots

"Children make the best opponents at Scrabble, as they are both easy to beat and fun to cheat."

[RaulGroom]

139. I've been trolling forums for reactions to this article

I personally thought the original article was pretty shallow and didn't really get into the issues raised by pornography, and I was hoping to see some intelligent discussion about it on this board.

Unfortunately, while your piece raises a few interesting points, it reads as if it is written from a standpoint of something approaching hysteria. Though I would tend to agree more with your point of view than with that of the article you're criticising, I would never want to see this piece held up as any kind of representation of the argument against the unchecked proliferation of porn.

Far be it from me to chide you for being emotionally caught up in the issue - it is a serious and moving one. But in writing we have the luxury of being able to go back and edit our copy after we have written it, to make it less emotional and more sympathetic to opposing points of view. This piece could benefit from a couple more editing passes, inserting some facts and taking out some of the excess venom.

That said, let me say (as someone who has looked at a substantial amount of porn, for the usual prurient purposes) why I find your outrage quite understandable.

A great deal of pornography produced in the U.S. seems to feed a deep cultural need to dominate and destroy women. In that sense, it definitely contributes to a widespread cultural problem - the perception of women as chattel, chiefly, along with other, subtler problems.

Unfortunately, the solution does not present itself so easily. In fact, it is ironically in large part because of the offensiveness of the material that it rightly falls under first amendment protection. If porn were truly a masturbation aid alone, we could argue that the images have no real speech content and are thus purely commercial and subject to stringent regulation.

However, since actually porn is saying something significant, albeit disgusting - that women are "bitches, whores," etc. - it abhorrent to ban it simply because we are offended by the message. We cannot ban "Birth of a Nation" or "Mein Kampf," though they, too, reinforce harmful stereotypes and contribute to ongoing cultural problems among certain sectors of the population.

So the question quickly becomes, in the absence of an outright ban of explicit sexual material, what exactly is to be done about the problems of porn?

Well, first we have to ask, what are the problems? On one end, there are the problems inherent in the production of porn. These fall into two basic categories - "occupational hazards" such as sexually transmitted diseases and other health problems associated with extreme promiscuity, and the much more serious problem of outright or de facto sex slavery.

The first category of problem is clearly in the public interest, as are all communicable diseases and environmental health problems. But while you seem convinced that the porn industry has unusually high rates of these problems compared with other highly promiscuous populations, I know of no concrete evidence to support this view. Perhaps you can direct me to some.

In any case, if these problems are indeed widespread in the porn business, it would stand to reason that any public health measures aimed at cleaning up the porn business (as opposed to shutting it down) would be supported at least by the workers in the porn industry, if not the management as well. On this front, I can identify with the complaint of the authors of the original article - if it is these problems we wish primarily to solve, we will need to go out of our way to work together with people in the porn business and not exclude them.

The more serious problem is that of poor women (in this country and others) who are coerced into the sex business through some combination of extreme poverty, kidnapping, misleading contracts, etc. I think any reasonable person could agree that to whatever extent women are involved in the porn business involuntarily, we are talking about major crimes that should be punishable by long prison sentences.

But of course the problem of sex slavery extends far beyond the porn business and into the "live" sex trade, which is traded on the black or gray market even in free countries. In the U.S. sex slavery is much more common among prostitutes than it is among porn actresses, even accepting the broadest possible definition of the term to include women who got into porn while impoverished and are under contract to produce a great deal more pornography than they realized at first, or even women who act in porn because they have no other marketable skill, and find the social safety net insufficient to sustain them, a common sitation, and growing more so. These problems are of course far worse in poorer countries.

So on the supply side, there is a lot we can do, but it has nothing to do with banning porn. Regulation, international treaties, increased opportunity, better institutional protections for the poor, etc. are the only way to deal with these problems effectively, and we should endeavor to do so, forsaking useless, criminal projects such as the invasion of Iraq and the development of an intentionally doomed ballistic missile defense system and spending our tax dollars on efforts to end disease and slavery both in the United States and worldwide.

On the demand side, the question is more complex. The least-discussed aspect of pornography (except among anti-porn hysterics, whose wild claims about the evils of porn have much the same effect as the "Reefer Madness" films - that is to make all discussion of the problem seem ridiculous) is the effect on the consumer.

Clearly pornography has effects on the brain of the person who uses it, effects which are very poorly understood. And clearly the proliferation via the Internet of instantly-available porn, known to be highly habit-forming, creates a significant risk to public health, to worker productivity, to network security, you name it.

The difficulty that arises is the same as with cannabis - how much right does the government have to intervene in a public health matter when the people who have the "disease" have no easily identifiable health risks, and do not want to be cured?

Still more subtle are the cultural problems that give rise to the kind of porn we are talking about, which focus primarily upon the objectification and humiliation of women, and therefore exacerbate a cultural rift between women and white men, their traditional masters. But the inversion here is crucial - these tendencies existed before the creation of pornography, and were indeed once much worse.

For example, consider the practice of stoning, a relic of our uncomfortably recent past in the West and still current in some cultures. The woman is tortured to death and her beauty made ugly, usually for the "crime" of allowing some man or other to become attracted to her and coerce her to have sex.

Is the white man's infatuation with anal sex and facial ejactulation so different? I am not implying that banning porn would cause a return to the practice of stoning. I am merely pointing out that a cultural problem must be solved with a cultural solution, and culture takes generations to change.

Indeed, it is this very problem which faces us on a huge number of fronts. Our cultural evolution as a society is stagnating, even regressing, while threats to the survival of that culture, and to the species itself - proliferate.

What is to be done about this? Unfortunately that question is above my pay grade. But I would recommend a book (which has nothing to do with porn) that at least sets out the beginning of a solution to the problems of our strange societal predicament. It is called New World, New Mind, and I recommend it to everyone.

I support your desire to see relations between women and men become more equal, and I concur that pornography is part of the problem. But we must be careful not to allow what we wish could be interfere with our pursuit of what we truly might accomplish, through organization, through cooperation, and unflinching love for each other.

Sincerely

Raul Groom

[m0nkeyneck]

228. porn.. it's not just 4 breakfast nemore

[jpgray]

154. This is the most hilarious thread I have ever read

I am in tears here.

'Our national speech agenda for the whole now dictates the freedom to masturbate with unchecked abandon to white women, women of color and/or nationality, and gay men and women'

Nonsense. A guy would masturbate to or have sex with mud if nothing else was around. It has to do with sex in this case--not everything involving women and men has to be about men dominating and subjugating women. How does mud fit in to your socio-economic hierarchy?

'to the "deliciously cute" elementary school age boys and girls who "teasingly" ride their bikes by your house.'

Is that projection accurate? I want to be informed by the appropriate authorities if you move into my neighborhood.

As for minorities not using porn... you have zero minority friends or acquaintances, right?

[Tsiyu]

155. many women would masturbate to mud as well

Why do some men think only men have and enjoy orgasms? ;)

[InvisibleBallots]

160. "masturbate to mud"

I object wholeheartedly to the concept that all men would "masturbate to mud" - what the hell does that even mean exactly? It's insulting to men.

[WoodrowFan]

179. that depends

how good looking is the mud? Is the mud a willing participant??


(I agree with you, very insulting)

[sui generis]

163. thank you

this whole thread is a bit whacked. Can't disagree without defending pornography; I just don't care. It doesn't impact my life. Porn is a paid for service among consenting adults remarketed to consenting adults. It's no different than hiring a plumber or an electrician, and if I wanted to buy a tape of an electrician wearing a nurse's uniform while rewiring someone's crib I could give a crap if it "exploits" that electrician.

It's weird that some people feel compelled to worry so much about shit that doesn't matter. It's even more annoying that it's that icky sex thing that gets their knickers all in a twist, every time.

[Tsiyu]

167. If you really didn't care

You wouldn't have any posts on this thread.

[InvisibleBallots]

175. If you don't like criticism of porn - don't read it!

:eyes:

[Name removed]

185. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

189. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sui generis]

195. alert away

I'm not taking it back, and I did read this thread, hence my suggestion to you. Please. Do you need my help pushing the alert button?

This is a liberal forum. Your views are clearly conservative. Your commentary is backhanded and divisive. Why don't you alert yourself while you're at it.

[InvisibleBallots]

200. please feel free to alert me

"I'm not taking it back"

You break the rules and are proud of it. Whatever, no sweat off my back.

"This is a liberal forum. Your views are clearly conservative."

This is a forum for Democrats, liberals, and progressives. I am a progressive. If you don't like my opinion, fine, again, no problem.

"Your commentary is backhanded and divisive."

Your commentary is divisive, and rude. Name calling is hardly a good way to carry on a discussion.

[sui generis]

201. OY VAY!!!

give it a rest lady

[InvisibleBallots]

202. yeah - same to you, you accuse me of being a Freeper

and now you're telling me to give it a rest? Take your own advice - give it a rest. Maybe you should stop accusing people of being Freepers just because they disagree with you.

[sui generis]

204. and a professional victim too

maybe you should just give it a rest. You fired the first shots. If you can't take the heat then get out of the fire.

Your comments were and are patronizing and indignant. If there's one "debate" technique I despise it is to create a personal attack and then play the persecuted martyr.

I officially apologize for the Freeper comment - I know it was over the top and hurtful to a fellow DU'er; but in case you plan on pushing the issue, that's the ONLY thing I apologize for.

Now. Again. Can we call it a truce?

[InvisibleBallots]

205. first you call me a freeper, now a "professional victim"

You know what? These posts speak for themselves. I don't believe I ever resorted to ad hominum like you did - twice now. Whatever.

[sui generis]

206. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!!

i divorce you i divorce you I DIVORCE YOU

I am also drawing a pentagram on the floor, lighting incense, breaking out a voodoo doll, and starting a roman catholic exorcism.

Good Grief!

Good Bye!

And you are a professional victim - and let me just add passive aggressive so you can get your ad hominem count up to three.

Yes, I'm an evil porn loving horrible person. Just trying to save you the trouble of a reply.

Good Bye.

[InvisibleBallots]

207. maybe TOO much coffee?

?

[Name removed]

208. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[InvisibleBallots]

210. more nasty personal attacks, you couldn't even apologize

without adding more personal attacks. How rude.

And please - I don't care enough about you nor your opinion to feel "persecuted" :eyes:

[sui generis]

212. I apologized for the first one

but you kept going, oblivious. Add oblivious to the ad hominem list please. I believe we have a classic personality conflict here. Have you alerted me yet? Please, get it over with. Shoot me. Anything to put me out of your misery. A two way restraining order from the admins would be nice.

And what was that coffee comment? Yeah, roll your eyes. Hope you're looking in the mirror.

[InvisibleBallots]

214. the comments speak for themselves

Instead of alerting you for breaking the rules and calling me a freeper, I'd rather just let the record speak for itself.

Now? Now I'm done, please - have the last word:

[sui generis]

215. peace

[Name removed]

335. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TankLV]

331. Only you would describe yourself as such.

I would not be so charitable.

The "thought police" and "sex police" don't sound too "progressive" to me.

Maybe there's another definition out there that I haven't seen?

[InvisibleBallots]

353. Who are these "thought police" and "sex police"?

Has ANYONE suggested banning porn in this thread? Anyone at all? Has ANYONE suggested banning thoughts (snicker)?

Funny - a woman criticizes the Porn Corporations - and lots of men act like they want to make jacking off illegal, then they accuse people of being thought police and sex police.

That sounds reactionary to me.

You can't point to a single thing I said that even remotely suggests banning anything - yet you and others continue to pretend that I am. That's called arguing with a strawman - works something like this:

"The porn industry mistreats its workers, and produces some very nasty anti-women movies"

"Thought police! Sex police! How dare you try to ban porn!"

How very, very sad.

[TankLV]

444. It is very clear what you are trying to do.

If the shoe fits....

[naryaquid]

219. ...You need to get out more, Dear...Invisible Ballot's views are NOT

indicative of "conservatism" they are indicative of a feminism which goes beyond "equal pay for equal work"...You obviously never heard of the feminist anti-porn lobby.
..Conservatives'anti-porn stance tends to be based on religiousity...Feminists don't like seeing themselves, their daughter, their mothers, etc. degraded...Not a damn thing conservative about it...

[benburch]

389. There is little difference.

You are just as repulsive as the conservatives, and just as ready to take away the rights of human beings to control their own bodies.

[Name removed]

184. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tsiyu]

191. Okay. Doctor. Meds please

Hon, may I suggest you are carrying things to extremes, here?

Just because someone doesn't appreciate the same things you do doesn't mean they are "holier-than-thou-types who don't get enough nookie." That's pretty damned funny, actually. But not very mature.

Okay, it's DU. Who ever said we were mature? I made the other post ( the one you responded to) because you claimed you really didn't care. To be completely factual and rational, if you really don't care about the topic of a thread, you don't read or respond to those threads concerning that topic.


I stay away from abortion/evolution/gun control and USUALLY pornography threads. It saves a lot of hassle, really. But since I do care about this issue as I am a person living on the planet at this particular time, I read and responded. Your saying you "don't care" seemed dishonest.

Why can't anyone criticize porn without a bunch of people going psycho? Sheesh!!!

[sui generis]

194. let's see how often you slid a backhanded insult in there

sheesh yourself. You are full of shit and a lot of hot air, and I say that nicely, from one DUer to another.

If you want to be persecuted for conservative views in a liberal forum, then by all means post here. I will continue to read and persecute conservatives at will, regardless of whether or not you think I should be responding to this topic.

I have an opinion on it. If you don't want to hear it DON'T POST HERE! Sheesh goes nicely right here.

Again, to reiterate, I don't care what other people do with their dicks and other pink parts. Sorry if that sounds too "immature" for your clearly self-important diatribes but that's the truth.

As I was saying elsewhere on here, the stupid thing about this argument is that defending the freedom to have, make, and watch porn aligns us with defending pornography itself in the simple minds of some simple minded posters here. It's not that black or white, but quite frankly if I need to keep it that simple for some posters here then so be it.

Did I get enough back and fore-handed insults in there? I try. It's all I can do.

[Tsiyu]

229. Okay Buddy

Wallow in that bitterness.

Many many many many feminists ( hardly considered coservative) have blasted the porn industry.

but you just live in your world where only fundy conservatives don't like porn. Yuh. Kay then........

[DemocratSinceBirth]

192. The Whole Point Is Academic...

With the advent of the net porn can be produced and transmitted from anywhere in the world which includes vast areas beyond the reach of U S law enforcement... The only form of pornography that is universally illegal is child pornography and that's a damn good thing...


But I could give a hoot what sexual acts adults perform in front of a camera..

[sui generis]

196. to DemSinceBirth and InvisibleBallots

Truce -

We're on the same side, mostly. I just had some coffee. I'll try not to breathe more fire.

[Name removed]

220. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nadienne]

217. Porn... *sigh*

My roommate and a friend of ours downloaded a bunch of videos; I really only saw glimpses, but I couldn't avoid hearing their laughter. I've seen bits and pieces of midget porn, bestiality, and gay porn... Those kinds of porn, at least, use sex to degrade "actors" and "actresses".

But it's okay; it's all good. It's fine to laugh at people for their sexuality. Other people do it. Other people buy it. It's not exactly good, clean fun, but that's what makes it so much fun, right?

One of my favorite movies is Orgazmo. It seems, in a very subtle way, to make fun of porn-watchers. My boyfriend pointed out that when they're about to show a woman's breasts, someone steps in the way and instead of seeing breasts, you see a man's hairy ass. Yeah! Take that, you perverts!

My roommate, for Christmas, bought me Anime porn. You know who fucks pretty little cartoon girls? Monsters. And sex is apparently more of a method of torture than it is a way for a couple to enjoy their partner's company.

So, porn-watchers, is sex something you do to someone else, or is sex something you do with someone else?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

271. Why Would Someone Laugh At Gay Porn Unless They Were A Homophobe?

eom

[Nadienne]

289. Do you think homophobes don't exist?

Why would anyone watch gay porn if they aren't gay?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

312. You Anwered Your Own Question

Some gay men like gay porn and some straight men like transexual porn......

"Why would anyone watch gay porn if they aren't gay?"


Maybe they aren't gay but gay curious or bi-curious...

[Nadienne]

400. So the answer to my question is,

men who watch gay porns, but aren't gay themselves, watch gay porns to laugh at gays because they're homophobes...

It doesn't really seem to help gay people get taken seriously...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

406. No -

The answer is any man who watches gay porn is either, gay, bi, or bi curious....

[Nadienne]

408. If that is how I answered my own question,

I was wrong. The full answer would be "Any man who watches gay porn is either gay, bi, bi curious, or a gay-bashing homophobe."

[GumboYaYa]

223. I have to laugh at the "all men watch porn" crowd.

I think that needs to be amended to all men who can't convince real people to have real sex or who aren't satisfied with their real sex life, watch porn.

I grew up in New Orleans surrounded with debauchery and temptation. There was a time in my life when my principle concern was who my next sex partner would be. No one, and I mean, no one who knows me would ever accuse me of being a prude.

Nevertheless, I think watching porn or visiting strip joints is one of the most useless wastes of time out there. All porn does is make you horny with no outlet. It's just for wankers who can't have normal sexual relationships with real people. Each to there own and I'll defend your right to watch porn all you want, but don't put me in the wankers club by saying all men watch porn.

[jdj]

227. and one other thing.

strippers CLEAN UP, yet I never hear many men say, "damn, I can't believe I just threw away $200 for something I didn't even get to touch" or whatever.

I'd like to hear from men, is this considered a worthwhile investment of money, the visual stimulation strippers, movies, magazines provide?

[Tsiyu]

231. Clark Howard once told me

( he's the cheapskate talk host who is a great guy) that going to strip clubs to a lonely guy was like putting a platter of temptimg food in front of a starving man and telling him he couldn't eat any of it.


But again, to each his own. Personally, there are times I'd like to just watch swarthy, fit men strut it - no strings- but for pleasure's sake, a real live thinking, breathing, flawed person is always better...personally....that is.

[jdj]

235. Cosmo runs great pictorials of beautiful young men

once in a while.

They do a great job.

The men are nude, privates covered up by some object like a surfboard or something.

[double_helix]

257. All *normal* men consume some type porn,

because most normal men want to have sex with many different women, but also want to have a girlfriend/wife. The only way to make that possible is porn and fantasy, not obsessively but in a casual way, e.g. a few times a week at the most -- just the same way a married woman may indulge her sexual/sensual fantasies by watching a soap opera or a a "chick flick", or by reading a romance novel (which is nothing more than female porn).

[InvisibleBallots]

261. what makes you think you are normal?

are you really so sure it's not you that is abnormal?

[double_helix]

265. Maybe I am abnormal - but then most men would be abnormal also.

My views are based on observation and science (neo-Darwinism and evolutionary psychology, to be exact).

I should not have used the phrase "all normal men" in my previous posts with regard to the viewing of pornography.

I should have stated that all normal men desire sex with multiple partners, but the monogamous nature of modern society makes that impractical, so most men turn to porn (even if it's something as small as the occasional, tasteful picture of a naked or topless woman) as an outlet for their fantasies.

This is not to say that all men who view porn are normal, or men who don't aren't.

There are anti-social men who have no sex and view too much porn.

There are hyper-social men who have lots of sex and have little need for porn.

There are men who suppress their urges to look at other women, to fantasize about sex with other women, or to look at pornography. Most of these men won't do it because of their own personal morality (e.g., God doesn't approve) or the morality of their significant other (e.g., the "goddess" doesn't approve). This is probably the most common type of guy who may not watch porn.

But the average, monogamous guy does look at pretty women on the street, does have passing sexual thoughts about other women who are not his significant other, does consume some form of pornography to indulge those fantasies. He still loves and is loyal to his significant other and would never disrespect or hurt her. His thoughts about sex aren't obssessive, or a reflection on her or their sex life, but are instead just a symptom of being male.

Keep in mind, the dynamics of the gay male sexual psychology are pretty much the same as straight males - just the object of their desire is different. This is about being male -- not about being macho, perverted, immoral or anything else the pop-psych analysts and the religious fundamentalists want to say about it.

If you don't believe me, there are two female doctors on Discovery Health Channel - Berman & Berman - who say some of the same things I'm saying, just in a way that relates better to female viewers.

The scientific truths of human behavior will find their way to the masses, as all scientific truths do, eventually. It is just a matter of time. This is not to say I have the entire truth, only that I believe that objective reasoning is the only way to arrive at truth, not Freudian-babble or religious morality or any other belief system based on flawed reasoning.

[GumboYaYa]

267. You are certainly correct in that males tend to

desire mulitple sex partners. I think most research has shown that in males and females sexual desire and sexual orientation vary on a sliding scale. I would go so far as to say many men and many women desire multiple sex partners, but definitely not all in either case.

There is certainly no "normal" when it comes to sexual preferences. To call one's sexual preferences, regardless of what they are, "abnormal" is just buying into the fact that a biological act is vested with some morality. Similarly, watching and engaging in porn is in many cases also just buying into that whole notion.

Porn depends upon a sexually oppresive society for its very existence. It is the opposite side of the coin of a moralistic vew of sex. If people felt comfortable talking about their sexual fantasies and desires and sharing them with their spouses/girlfriends/boyfriends etc. without fear of rejection or revulsion then there be no need for porn. That is basically what you said put back a different way.

The funny thing to me is that defenders of porn always say they are being attacked by the moralists, when in fact the entire industry depends upon the moralists. If you want to get beyond vesting sex with morality, you have to get beyond the notion that your fantasies and desires are dirty.

It is far more enjoyable to actually engage in sexual activity with someone with whom you are completely comfortable and can share your most twisted thoughts than to hide those thoughts and release that sexual tension alone watching porn.

[InvisibleBallots]

268. evolutionary psychology is not "science", sorry

It's a very interesting theory, that is not backed up with any experimental evidence, unless you know of some that I don't? I tend to agree with some of the theories, but I've also read people taking the interesting core ideas and coming up with some fabulous bullshit based on it.

[Tsiyu]

284. You and Gumbo Ya YA are right on the money

I get so tired of this "only men are sexual" idea.

Could it be that over the course of history, men have convinced themselves that women don't have a sex drive so they can feel more secure about the fidelity of their partners?

Could it be that they have tried to turn females into the "good" sex or the "moral" sex making males the "bad" sex and therefor excused for bad behavior? ( After all, women don't really LIKE sex, huh?)

That's the kind of shit you hear James Dobson say.

If the porn industry actually gave a damn about sexuality, and not just profits, they wouldn't continue using these stereotypes to suck in the $$$$$$$$$$$

[GumboYaYa]

325. Have you seen "Kinsey" yet?

If not, you will love this movie. Al Kinsey was one of the very first scientists to investigate human sexuality. Without getting into his discoveries, one of the most interesting things in the movie is the different manner in which the public reacted to his discoveries about men versus women. His book on men was a bestseller and received great acclaim. A year later he released a book on women and was practically run out of science. People simply could not deal with the fact that women masturbate, have pre-marital sex and extra-marital sex, and god-forbid, engage in homosexual acts. It really validates your point.

You will love the movie. I think John Lithgow deserves the best supporting actor Oscar for his role in this one.

[Tsiyu]

329. I'll have to check it out.

And for sure, they have run full male frontal nudity out of most towns, but female full-frontal is A-OK.

Same as in R ratings. They can't show us a turgid peepee.

How unfair is that?

[InvisibleBallots]

355. oh dear

oh dear. I'm just waiting for someone to tell us about how de Sade was a great sexual liberator :eyes:

[shondradawson]

341. Whose Science and Observations? Not a woman's....

Your views are based on subjugation and patriarchal suppression.

Every point you made about "natural male behavior" is the "observation and science" of a civilization after oh, say, 2,000 years of female subjagation and suppression.

Half of that junk you cited isn't even recognized anymore as real scientific observation, because men dominated that field up until the last century, and they threw out or buried much of what they found out very early on about male and female sexuality. Where do you think the "insatiable slut" protrayals come from, when women are supposed to be so chaste and uninterested in sex?

The male body isn't even physiologically designed to be promiscuous with multiple partners. One penis, one erection, for about 12-25 minutes of coitus, and one orgasm, nor is it "natural" for the male mind to need sex, since it isn't designed for (gasp!cough!she mentioned...)yes, pregnancy.

The female uterus is actually a thinking organ, in that it has nerves connecting it to the female brain. That's right: men do not and cannot think with their penises. But it is quite possible, that on any given day, a woman is thinking with her vagina. A woman's menstruation cycle is a "red letter" from her body to say, "YOU NEED TO HAVE SEX!!!!!" It comes every month, like clockwork, so she never forgets.

The female vagina is able to have sexual intercourse rain or shine, wind or snow, hot or cold, you name the place and the time and she can be there "with bells on." I say bells, because the female orgasm is perfectly in sync with her body: sexual intercourse can be sustained by the vagina indefintely (until physical exhaustion or death)and her orgasms can be, too. Trick is, as the uterus, being a thinking organ,contracts, it REMEMBERS, and that memory will make that female body more responsive to sexual arousal.

Men have no "need" of sex mentally or physically, but have created a society where it is made readily acessible to them by subjugation and suppression. Indeed, your science and observations of male sexuality, as we live around it, is most, most unnatural.

What you have observed is man's pathetic and severly warped attempt to imitate a woman's natural sexuality. For the sexuality you describe is naturally a woman's. Woman was designed for HER OWN need for sex, for HER OWN limitless pleasure, and HER OWN procreative choices.

And men punished her for it.

[double_helix]

360. We have radically differing views: you are a social constructionist,

you believe that culture creates people, that there is no objective reality, only a subjective reality which has been created by some powerful ruling elite, who have manufactured everything we believe in, including science.

I am a believer in hard science. I believe that people create culture, that human behavior is mostly a result of our biology. I believe that there is an objective reality, governed by the laws of nature, which scientists can only discover, which no ruling elite can create or modify.

We have fundamentally opposing belief systems, which makes it impossible to really discuss a topic like pornography as it relates to male sexual behavior.

[Tsiyu]

375. You believe in patriarchal science

Everybody lies in that game.

[eyepaddle]

398. Could you clear that up for me?

Are you saying that the social sciences are patriarchal or that ALL science is patriarchal?

Not being a social scientist I cannot comment on how amny lies are or are not present. However if you subscribe to the view that society determines things like the law of gravity, the speed of light, mechanics, the krebs cycle....well, I'm pretty much speechless. I hope that isn't the case. If it is though, I hope you enjoy arguing with an uncaring and unimpressed universe, because no matter how persuasive your arguments it ain't gonna change.

[Tsiyu]

424. Eyepaddle, I'm speechless

Please reread what you wrote, Hon.

Gravity is pretty much figured out. Nine meters per second squared? Something like that ( forgot the horrid college physics)

Have you figured out human relationships? Have you figured out the human mind? Do you know all about EVERY tribe and community that ever was, how it operated, what the social mores were?

Have you given birth? You know they STILL don't know all the cues that trigger labor? Did you know that there's something in male sweat that regulates a woman's menstrual cycle? ( Yeah, guys, we might just NEED you!)

History is written by the victors ( please see my post above "I enjoy being patronized. Don't most women?")

Social Science standards are decided by those with the $$$$$$$ to study and research and publish works on Social science. You've had a rare opportunity in this thread to listen ( if you can) to real women and men discuss their thoughts on a touchy subject. As you see, and contrary to arrogant males who claim to know what "all women want," there is a vast difference in "what women want." Some women here love porn or at least enjoy it, some scorn it, some could take it or leave it and some absolutely loathe it.

So much for that goddamned fixed "all women" shit. Now, eyepaddle, you were SAYING?

[girl gone mad]

460. Right on.

Evolutionary sociobiology is fundamentally flawed. The theories are written by middle aged white men for middle aged white men, and I think many of their ideas about human sexuality are complete nonsense.

I can see how the notion that women are more attracted to money and power than youth, looks and vitality appeals to aging science geeks, but just how many women would prefer Bill Gastes to Brad Pitt?

When it comes to female sexuality, Nicole Kidman said it best in Eyes Wide Shut: "If you men only knew". Though I think that men today actually prefer to stay deluded.

[The Magistrate]

366. Only Two Thousand Years, Ma'am?

To put it mildly, the view of "science" you present here is highly tenditious, and the views of anatomy downright peculiar. Mere nervous connection to the brain hardly locates sentience in any functioning organ besides that one resident in the skull, though there seem to be some automatic responses the great nerve of the spine is capable of....

"I hate women because they always know where things are."

[WoodrowFan]

240. We REALLY need to lighten up a bit folks

chill folks, it's an interesting diuscussion but some folks are getting too hot.

Here, a rousing little ditty for you all by Tom Lehrer..

it's titled "SMUT!"

Smut!
Give me smut and nothing but!
A dirty novel I can't shut,
If it's uncut,
and unsubt- le.

I've never quibbled
If it was ribald,
I would devour where others merely nibbled.
As the judge remarked the day that he
acquitted my Aunt Hortense,
"To be smut
It must be ut-
Terly without redeeming social importance."

Por-
Nographic pictures I adore.
Indecent magazines galore,
I like them more
If they're hard core.

(Bring on the obscene movies, murals, postcards, neckties,
samplers, stained-glass windows, tattoos, anything!
More, more, I'm still not satisfied!)

the rest at
http://wiw.org/~drz/tom.lehrer/the_year.html

[ckramer]

253. Porn is actually harmful to men's health

that's the conclusion of a research article I read years ago. It doesn't help to enhance a man's sexuality but psychologically, permanently damage it, causing various long term sexual and relationship problems.

The advice from that article was - if you want to be a healthy man, avoid porn as much as you can.

[benburch]

254. Nonsense...

Cite the article.

I will respond with all of the studies that refute it.

[WillyT]

258. My Pornograph Got Tossed Away Years Ago !!!

The strength of the Stylus wasn't up to it any longer.

But now I have DVD, and everything's back to Abby Normal!



:evilgrin:

[booley]

259. Porn the province of White Men?

Hmmm, then apparently lots of my black and gay male and a good number of women too don't exist.

Becuase all of them have enjoyed porn.

I'm watching my messy bedroom on FSTV right now where a women dressed up as a DynaGirl rip -off is talking about sex toys and how to use a cucumber to find out what size dildo to buy.

My Faux brother's girlfriend has a thing about seeing two guys getting on in gay porn. si she "preying " on men then?

How often we forget that porn is a FANTASY. It lets us into a world where we could never go in reality and wouldn't want too. And liking porn no more inherently makes one a racist or a mysogynist or whatever then liking Agatha Christie Novels mkaes one a blood thirsty serial killer.

I'm not going ot defend whatever abuses of the models who wortk in porn may have suffered becuase that happen sin any industry? How many child actors have been doped up so they can keep working? have you noticed the horrors that our farm animals go through just so we can have a nice hamburger or bucket of wings? But that doesn't make porn inherently bad. it just makes it as prone to bad people becoming involved as any other industry.

I think what really bugs me is that this author makes the same kind of mocking reference to not only the first ammendment but to civil rights movements..black, women''s lib and gay..ect.. and in so doing misses the incredible irony of it all.

All of those civil rights movements, as well as distribution of sex ed material, literature and art and on an don't, have all been attacked and repressed based on an opinion that they were all obscene and had no social value...Just as this author is doing.A good number of feminst writings that were labled Pornographic when they first came out. as have numerous works of gay literature and sex ed material by sanger.

Seems some people never learn. The Moralistic zealotry of the author, high in self rightouse condemnation but weak on facts or history, has never done anything but hindered the cause of human rights.

And the idea that porn will lead you to pedophilia ais really dumb. Diaper commercials ar eporn to them. Going to outlaw Huggies?

[Tsiyu]

264. I think that the OP was intended to ask those in the industry to THINK

about how they will present their case - namely: that porn is protected free speech.

There was no implication that blacks, gays or women don't enjoy porn. The argument was that modern-day porn is more a tool to degrade certain groups of people than a harmless indulgence most adults would enjoy.

If producers want to limit their films to violent, degrading depictions of sex, they aren't going to get a whole lot of help defending their cause from gals like me. Sorry. There are a whole hell of a lot more issues with which to concern myself.

The OP never said "outlaw porn" or "those who watch porn are bad." The poster is merely saying what many folks have been saying for a long time: modern porn - TO SOME PEOPLE - sucks big time.

If you gotta have it, more power to you. But THINK about it for a minute. Just for a minute.

If it's such a great industry and career path, with no negative ramifications, will you encourage your daughter to be a porn star? How would you feel if it was your mom getting gang-banged on film or your brother or your sister? If you're okay with anyone you know going into modern porn as a profession, then I guess you're on the level.

[booley]

276. we do think about it

yes, a lot of porn does suck big time. but that's a creative thing.

IF Michealangelo had to put out ten statues a day, do you think the quality would go down? so what happens when people of far less talent then him do it all the time?

Porn can often be cheesy, often uses tired stereotypes and can often seem as if it was done by a cookie cutter run by deranged, blind gibbons. It's a billion doller industry and so it has a lot of product. and lot sof that product is..crap.

(but please don't generalize by insinuating that all porn is the same, that just having a sterotype is a deliberate attmept at degradation or racism-and not just laziness- or that rough or weird sex is synonamous with violence)

Porn can also be fun, make you see things differently (while a low art, it is still an art), provide a release, an escape, lets you enter a fantasy world that you would never be able to enter in real life or should. it acts as a window to part sof our psyche that we normally try to deny. And it can be a great creative outlet that lets you meet lots of neat people.

it's about how you approach it (and it's not for everyone)

Don't like porn? Excuse the flippant answer but . if what's out there bugs you then make your own that's better. it's not that hard (pardon the pun). They got books on it now.

And as a matter of fact, friends of mine are in the industry. and the best advice to peopel in the porn industry is the same as for any job... be responsable, be safe and have fun.

If my sister went into porn, i would worry if she hooked up with a bad crowd. IBut then, when my sister went to work for a mortgage company, i worried if she was working for a bad crowd.

As for free speech, if you are only willing to defend speech you agree with or like, then you aren't really defending free speech.

[Tsiyu]

279. Well, if your sister ever makes it big time

They won't be exposing her mortgage applications to demonize her.

Like I've said, to each his own. But from what I've seen, IN MY OPINION as a woman, most modern porn is not sexy, creative or fun.

Different cues work for different people. The brain is actually our biggest sex organ - according to those who study human sexuality. Of course jungle lovin' and kinky stuff is not "bad." Goddamn, this thread is not about SEX but about PORN. Why are people unable to separate the two?

Speaking for myself, if I had to degrade someone in the manner depicted in a lot of porn these days, I'd just worry about my humanity, that's all. And I never needed porn to get cookies - just have a great imagination I guess.

As much as I abhor censorship, I still agree with the OP. There isn't anything in modern porn for me to stand up and feel compelled to defend it. That's the point. I won't advocate outlawing it, but I damn sure am not going to feel sorry for the modern day pornographer.

[booley]

315. then don't watch it

"They won't be exposing her mortgage applications to demonize her."

Unless she happens to have unknowingly joined one of the disreputabel ones that scams people....

Sorry but trying to get me morally outraged by bringing up my sister at all is cheap, lame, and beside the point. And it undermined your arguement the moment you brought it up the first time. Sorry if I didn't take the bait the way you wanted.

A few members of my family wouldn't approve of me being gay. does that mean being gay is inherently demeaning? Does the fact that there are gay jerks mean being gay makes one a jerk? Does the fact that there are problems common to gay men mean that being a gay man is inherently a problem?

You are probably going to deny you ever implied that or that the original author implied this as well. BUT in effect it is what you are saying. becuase you go on from the porn industry having problems (even if you don't corroborate those problems) and then make a sweeping generalization that this is what the entire industry is like.
That's why I recoghnize the tactic. I've seen it before.

I find most porn frankly, boring. Seen one, seen about 1 million. But that doesn't mean there isn't good porn. Maybe you simply haven't seen it or didn't give it a chance. or maybe you're just not into it. I don't care frankly becuase it's totally not relevant anyway anymore then if Clint Eastwood cares if I personally find Westerns interesting.

BUT that's a creative issue. i find most movies dull and repetitive. But since these movies exist only to entertain me, I feel no problem with simply not watching them. fi they aren't entertainingme, they aren't fulfilling thier function anyway.

So if porn does nothing for you, don't watch and your problem is solved. or make you own.

becuase you are right in that the brain is the best sex organ. but often it needs a little inspiration. Otherwise we would never have developed the entertainment industry in the first place. I have a pretty good imagination. But I still like books.

So My first point is, you need to seperate the creative problems with porn from the industry itself.
The author see racism. I see stereotypes in the script due to lazyness. The Author sees degredation. I see the power dynamic inherent in sex whether it's in porn or not. You see women in porn being abused. I see a worker being abused and in need of the same protections and rights as any worker requires to prevent abuse by her employer.

Here's my second. Please top with the sweeping generalizations. Saying porn is inherently degrading (without even backing up or qualifying that statement) is like saying that black men are muggers. Yes, quite a few black men are muggers but does that mean all black men are muggers?

Such sweepiong and unqualified generalizations aren't just offensive, they are so generalized as to be useless in solving the very problems you are citing and only work to make you seem uninformed.

And lastly, the point you should really pay attention too becuase the other two are just differences of opinion between us. You can think porn sucks (no pun intented again) and that it's unneccesary and ect ect.. You don't have to agree with those at all. That's fine and that's whats' so great about our country.

BUT what you do need to defend isn't porn but the principle that allows free speech including porn. Sorry but you can't pick and choose which parts of free speech you want to defend.
Don't like Porn? Well, I detest neo-nazis. They are stupid, ill informed, bigots and they dress poorly (brown is so last year) YET I defend their right to speak. I would fight any attempt to censor them, even though I know for a fact that they would never do the same for me, thier message is not only vile but actively against my own self interest (which includes breathing) and they are just incredibly obnoxious.

so how is your not liking porn and my detesting Nazis the same thing? well if you didn't figure it out already.. becuase while you may not be interested in limiting free speech, others are. People in our government and the power to do so. And they are working on doing so right now. And thier idea of what's porn is way broader then your's or mine is.

And these people never start with the big stuff. They start small, with groups easily demonized. becuase when guys like you say they aren't "compelled to "defend" these groups, the censors take your apathy as approval for what they want to do. whether you meant for it to be taken that way is besides the point. That's how they use it.

You have to defend the right of people to speak, even if you disagree or even hate them. Otherwise the right iself becomes meaningless.

[Tsiyu]

338. Sorry you misunderstood

I brought up the mortgage issue because earlier in the thread folks were comparing exploitation in industries outside porn. The problem with that comparison is that there can be further exploitation if a gal makes a porn flick in a moment of poverty and then later achieves status in another endeavor.

I was not trying to hurt your feelings in any way. I suppose i should have used a less personal example.

I DON'T watch porn so no problem with your logic there. But I wish that there was some decent porn produced that women could enjoy. I wish that this was a world where women could express themselves fully without being told they are crazy, wrong, unrealistic.

And I wish that the visual images of degrading another human weren't so popular, because IN MY EXPERIENCE I cannot relate to men that are into those images. I really want to connect with men, enjoy their company and have many male friends- straight and gay. We discuss sexuality openly. That's a good thing. But when it comes to porn, it seems I am censored.

So when I get my full freedom of speech on this issue without being told I'm "full of shit" or "self-important" for having an opinion, I'll cry some tears over the pornographers' freedom of speech.

Deal?

[WoodrowFan]

295. deranged blind Gibbons??

porn made by deranged blind Gibbons!! The mind reels!!!

[shondradawson]

318. Uh, Huh?

Where in my post did I say that no Black men, gay men, or women watch porn?

How do you suppose I forgot that porn is a fantasy?

You accusation that I am mocking the 1st Amendment is a deliberate twist of words in my post. In fact, my post is about pornography mocking the 1st Amendment.

Where in my post did I say that porn leads to pedophilia?

I am really truly through with my post being READ INTO instead of just read. One reply actually took the time to pick my post apart point by point as I asked, and all he did was give me his fierce take on things I never wrote. I mean, the guy went paragraph by paragraph, and still made a fool of himself asking me all kinds of innocuous questions about what I DIDN'T WRITE.

Why don't any of you ask me what I meant when I wrote this or that, instead of "reading into" my post so you can easily fit in your stock answers and responses to the "porn issue."

Do any of you even want to understand where I was coming from? "Gee, I'm having trouble with your political party examples, what did you mean, because I'd like to discuss that with you." See how easy that is?

Accusing me of mocking the 1st Amendment, the PRIMARY thing I was defending in my post shows me you have wasted your own time. Why bother reading my post if you don't intend to even pretend to consider what I have to say?

Personally, I think you all saw a woman's name on the post and already filled your minds with what you thought you were going to read and responded from there. Why? I am very thankful for the handful of men and women on this thread and in my DU Inbox who took the time to really read my post and really got it, as well as the others who wanted to understand it and inquired further. It's really easy, you know? Easier than trying to come up with the poor one-liners were in your reply.

[Forkboy]

280. No Sex Threads!

:P

[indigobusiness]

283. No threads sex

apparently.

[Tsiyu]

285. Best way to do it - threadless

having fun here. Join right in!

[indigobusiness]

292. On horseback...

dancing.

[shondradawson]

287. Ahem

I find it touching, really, how most of the replies (mostly from white men, but as they keep telling me, my percentages are off)cite gay porn as their support of the industry not being exploitative at all. But the only white men you could find in porn actually being objectified were outside of your sexual orientation, the nation's predominant power elite, and so yes, within the "minority" group, which I why I included them in my original post.

Touching, because most straight men cringe to ever be included among the "faggots" and the "queer boys", but are more than happy to (surprise) exploit them to defend their own selfish ends. Now you understand why I am sooo safe in presuming that the most hysterical defenders of pornography are straight white men. Who else would go so far and stoop so low to make such a pathetic "power" play?

Give yourselves some dignity and leave gay men out of your argument. You know how to do that, don't you?

Just the way you leave them out of your society, your community, your sports teams,your military,and like every other "minority" YOUR 1st Amendment rights.

You boys really do have a taste for all kinds of inappropriate...

Ah, which sweeps me into asserting that I stated the porn consumers are overwhelmingly white men, which is not to say that members among the "minority" group can't be found that do.

So do spare us all the ardent "testimonies," and stick to the point which is WHY the titles and references are marketed toward straight white men AS IF no other color of man or women purchase porn. A stronger reply would have been, "Gee, most porn titles do exclude the "minority" group and that should change in the name of fair and equal representation. After all, we're talking about 1st Amendment rights and they are not just for us anymore. Other people have them, too. Sexuality, if that is truly what porn reflects, is not ours to corner and conquer like we do everything else."

A statement like that, which falls right in line with what my post was all about, making porn a little more decent in terms of how everybody is fairly and equally represented, so it CAN JUST BE about sex.

But no, leave it to white men on this thread just like they did in the massage parlors and the strip clubs and the porn shops, here we go (yawn) the whole parade of snipping, sniveling, shrieking about their rights, their freedoms, their liberties, their wants and needs, wah, wah, wah, "we hurt, too," but it's all supposed to be about sex.

Like my girls asked me all the time, if it is just about sex, why don't they just put it in, pull it out and GO AWAY, GO AWAY, without a sound, a move, or the least bit of "speech and expression" from him or her. Why does the woman never have the "liberty" to be as patronizing with him as he can "freely" be with her? Why do these men always have to talk about their day, their work, their relationships, the brother lost in 'Nam, the dreams, the fears, their wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah...and expect you to listen, laugh at their bad jokes, pretend they can kiss or sexually satisfy a woman in any way?

Why is it so important that SHE SHOWS SHE LIKES YOU, no matter what you do?

Even interracial porn is riddled with every moronic idea and expectation white men have about Asian, Hispanic, and Black women: why don't they depict what "minority" women feel about white men?

Why is it so important that SHE SHOWS SHE APPROVES OF YOU, no matter what you do?

Oh, I forgot...most adult entertainment is not about everybody's sexual fantasies. Just white men's fantasies.

"Oh, but it's just fantasy...you have to separate it from reality!" But many of the males replies acknowledged direct parallels to the "way it is" in society and the "way it is" in porn, but (what? you're crazy! now way!deluded!) porn is not a microcosm of the patriarchy? Indeed...that's exactly what all you dirty white boys love about it.

Fantasy is about what you want,isn't it, what gets you off,isn't it, the way you would like "your world" to be...and isn't it? Isn't it a white man's world, in and out of porn, and yes, YES, oh, YES, YES, Oh, oh, YES, you better believe one is ejaculated right into the other.

I never suggested the censoring or the banning of porn. Why would I do such a terrible thing, give up my favorite thing to do?

Watching white men in America give all their shit away...

[Tsiyu]

296. You last line totally cracked me up.

Thanks for the morning laugh.

;)

[shondradawson]

298. You're quite welcome

This thread is getting meaner by the day towards women, and too many of these male arguments are standing on one leg...the third one.

That said, there is a curious desperation in their arguments that makes me pity them. Masturbation and fantasy can and is done without the use of pornography, and though I am happy to have erotic material as much as the next person, it is something to note what men profess to be unable to do without, even sacrificing the strides that members of the "minority" group make to assert their dignity in the "real world" while being sabotaged and undercut by the "fantasy" one.

To deny that is to deny that there is not real injustice in this country: why profess to be "pissed off" with the examples of it in one world while being admittedly sexually aroused by the examples of it in another?

How does one do that?

[Tsiyu]

300. Cognitive dissonance

"I really like women. Really. But I'm not interested in their opinions, their feelings or their sexual experience. Sex is about ME: Big MAN (* thumps chest*)."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

314. Who's Mean...

I haven't seen any hostility towards women in this thread...


I just think it's presumptuous and chauvanistic to assume that a woman wouldn't have sex in front of a camera out of her own free will...

[Tsiyu]

333. Well, I was told I was full of shit

Hostile enough for you?

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

373. that's a straw man argument

no one is saying that all women in porn are coerced into it, only that they are not treated with equal respect...and that they should be.

also, I'm saying now that I've seen women freely choose to have sex in front of a camera out of their own free will, only to have the sex turn into flat-out rape (or at least the appearance of non-consensual sex) in the middle of things. example: she's agreed to intercourse, but not anal, but the guy switches from one to the other in the middle of the scene, ignoring her protests and attempts to push him away.

Extreme Teen 5, if you think I'm making this up.

Whether it's actually rape or just the appearance of it, NO ONE should be getting off to that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

382. That's A Straw Man....

No one here has implied or stated that getting off to depictions of rape or depicted rape is healthy...



You also seem to be suggesting that no person would willingly be the passive partner in anal sex.... There are many men and women who would disagree with you.....

[Puglover]

399. Jesus F'ing Christ!!!!!

Have you ever BEEN out of this puritanical country lady? You can walk down the streets in Hamburg or Amsterdam or Copenhagen and they have areas sat aside for porn, legal prostitution and whatever else might snap your bean. Believe me, their instances of rape and violence to wards women is far FAR lower then the US.
It's our fucked up in denial repressed society that fosters it NOT pornography.
:eyes:

[Tsiyu]

434. And do you think that if you showed a kid some modern porn

where nobody uses condoms and nobody gets pregnant, that they will get an adequate education?

I'm as against abstinence-based education as much as I am against letting modern American sexual culture be the teacher.

Just because there is every kind of porn out there doesn't mean that the people who use it are sexually aware. Allowing men AND WOMEN to speak FREELY without censorship about their experiences and about the realities of sexuality is the ticket.

Unfortunately, as we have witnessed on this thread, allowing women to speak freely is very troubling and frightening for some males ( and females). Now, does THAT kind of blatant censorship help our society? Please explain how because I, as a female, am pretty goddamned sick of it.

[Syrinx]

311. "Watching white men in America give all their shit away..."

Racism, and racial stereotypes, are just as ugly and infuriating coming from the far left (or wherever it is you're coming from), as they are from the far right.

[shondradawson]

319. But I was fantasizing when I wrote it, so it's okay

[Syrinx]

323. mmm, okay

Seek counseling. It's not good to fantasize about hate. Seriously. :hug:

[shondradawson]

334. That is one of the several points in my original post.

You couldn't have made it any clearer.

My God, you (and a few others) got it.

Spread the word.

[Syrinx]

340. question

Why do you show such contempt, and apparent hatred, of an entire segment (and a very large one, at that) of society? Are you saying that this "opinion" you display of white men is meant as satire or humorous irony? If so, I apologize for my earlier misunderstanding of your comments.

[shondradawson]

344. The contempt and apparent hatred for an entire segment

of society does not lie within the words of my original post or any of my replies, but in the cause or reason of my original post which was the depiction or representation of members within the "minority" group.

I pointed the finger at white men because it is indeed the white male perspective that the majority of pornography and other adult entertainment is produced by and pandered to.

And as you can see by this thread, many came out to lynch me for it.

My concern was that pornography is defended by white men to preserve their monopoly over its production and perspective. I want to widen the doors to include everyone in our diverse society and sexuality, and not just the racist/sexist/homophobic representations that if, indeed, white men who profess to not hold those those views in their minds, why and how are they then portrayed in their sexual fantasies, which are manifested in the mind?

It is a serious denial by white men if they cannot see what many members of the "minority" group(which I put in parentheses because they actually make up the majority collectively)have criticized pornography for. My fight is not against pornography, but against the glaring overtones in pornography that allow those who are against it good, solid reasons for censoring it or banning it entirely.

It is irresponsible to say that pornography is not harmful if not used in moderation, like anything else, but especially and dangerously irresponsible to not listen and consider the real grievances women, Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, and the lesbian/gay community have about how they are unfairly represented and often humilitated by the industry.

So I wrote about it, in the hope that many would read my words and see the gross inequalities and abuses within the industry and make some changes for more "minority" inclusion, fairer representation, and a more explorative and humane view or portrayal of human sexuality, and not just a few white men's sexuality and their imposed idea of everyone else's.

[Guaranteed]

405. A lot of porn doesn't even show the man's face.

That's pretty objectifying, IMO.

And as far as your race factor is concerned, that's totally ridiculous. I know all kinds of black guys that look at porn.

[JHB]

291. Feminists for Free Expression position paper on this subject

http://www.ffeusa.org/html/statements/statements_pornography.html

[Nadienne]

297. From Number 4:

"Sexism, not sex, degrades women. Though sexism pervades our culture in many forms, we will not eliminate it by banning sex."

I agree. But who's trying to ban sex?

My big problem with pornography that involves women is that the role women play is usually one of submission, subservience, pleasing the man. I can understand that this type of pornography is a result of a male-dominated society. I'm not impressed with the society men have created; I'm even less impressed with the pornography that results from it. It is sexist. Therefore, it is degrading.

[JHB]

301. But "Pleasing the man" isn't from a "male dominated society"...

...it's due to the presumed audience being heterosexual males.

Is there anything more self-indulgent than a sex-fantasy? So is it really unexpected that when heterosexual males fantasize about being indulged, it would be by women.

It's really that simple. Trying to graft political motives onto it distorts the issue.

[shondradawson]

305. But you keep no check on your appetite, that's just it.

The self-indulgence is a given, JHB. No one is arguing that. Being indulged by women is a given in any straight male fantasy. The original argument was that the white heterosexale male fantasies make up the overwhelming majority of porn production.

And yes, it is really that simple.

Why is that under fire? Even the most casual porn user can take that into account. Why is that being disputed? And for that matter, nobody said that white heterosexual fantasies can no longer be allowed, but WHY anybody else's fantasies are not portrayed unless they are written and directed by hetero white males? Why are white males the only bodies in porn not objectified, unless they are gay?

My God, can you really not see that? It doesn't indict you at all to say you see that. Why can one easily presume and "testify" that Black men dominate the prison industry, but to easily presume and "testify" that White men dominate the porn industry, you all start huffing and puffing and crying injustice?

This is exactly why nothing ever changes when it comes to the racism/sexism/homophobia tensions in this country. You only see it when it gives you no advantage, and as long as you can get off on it, to do away with it is some kind of reverse discrimination. I mean, what is this thread about?

For God's sakes, calm down, nobody is trying to take your precious porn away from you, but suggesting ways of making it acessible to everyone else BESIDES you. And you can't handle that? God forbid anyone should make you watch a woman on camera that really likes sex and ISN'T A WILD AND CRAZY WHORE or A SALACIOUS SLUTTY BANG, and if she happens to be of color she's not AN AFRICAN/NUBIAN/CHOCOLATE/MUD QUEEN or KINKY CHINK/SLANTED SLIT HOLE/POW POONTANG.

I don't doubt you are laughing: all the white men think the titles are funny. Do you ever stop to think that maybe the "minority" groups don't?

Why is it white men just get to be the "guy?"

[Chelsea Patriot]

359. I am laughing! Your prose is hilarious!

"Mud Queen".....Not that's camp!

[Nadienne]

308. "The presumed audience being heterosexual males"

Doesn't the website you posted mention that pornos are rented 50% of the time by women? (And I quote: "Half the adult videos in the U.S. are bought or rented by women alone or women in couples.")

Apparently you disagree with that...???

And, if what the website says is true (because I believe and agree with you), the women population that watches pornos fantasize about indulging their men...???

I would say "grafting political motives" actually clarifies the issue. The same can be done for many romance novels, by the way. They are marketted to women, they are read predominantly by women (and yeah, I do know a few men who read them), but some teach women that "normal" women subjugate themselves to men, willingly. Read one with that perspective in mind. You'll see what I mean.

[bloom]

321. %'s

Someone else - from the industry I believe - posted that 78% of porn videos were rented by men and the rest were rented by women and/or women and men. That seems a lot more believable to me.

The 50% figure makes that site suspect. Like what else is not credible....

[shondradawson]

302. Don't you find it telling

that men dismiss, disregard women who dare to speak and express anything that goes against the status quo in relation to the society they have created, but will always use a "few" women who support it as representatives for us all?

The "few" women are rational, logical, and most importantly, "realistic" about the social state, while the rest of us, the majority of us are hysterial, emotional, or repressed.

You cannot begin (as we can see throughout this thread)to present any opinion or point of view to discuss and debate with one who doesn't consider you an individual of sound mind who can deliberate and choose to believe without being pushed and shoved into a box with the rest of the "mentally retarded, the insane, and women," as the court laws used to read in every state in the country.

Looking at this thread and the shrieks, that's what I hear from grown men, mind you, shrieking and exasperation, as if they are soooo taxed with having to read the words of women who are "out of place" to suggest that porn can be just as erotic and fun and cool if you took the racism, sexism, exploitation, and other forms of degradation out of it.

You'd think those elements were necessary components of pornography, as if those elements alone is what these men found "exciting." If so, then the "white male-oriented" adult entertainment out there is NOT ABOUT sex, and that's what makes me queasy. Why is it so ridiculous to think that pornography couldn't present a fair and equal balance of all people, with respectful titles of every color, sex, and sexual preference, why must sex be so undignified?

[The Magistrate]

370. In Other Words, Ma'am

Your objection is one relating to market share. Rather like my distress at the prevelance of Oscar Meyer franks, and Ball Park franks, and similar travesties, out on display everywhere, and the difficulty on occassion of laying hands on a really decent Kosher deli hot dog. Why on earth, you can hear me cry on occassion, do people consume this swill, and why are there no proper hot dogs in my supermarket's aisles?

But of course, different people will prefer different things, and it has long since ceased to cause me much distress that large numbers of people do not share my own particular tastes. It is possible for me to find, or in some instances create, things that suit me, and so it causes me no real problem. There being a sufficiency of real problems beseting my existance, there is no need for me to conjure non-existant ones up, which would only distract from dealing with the real ones, and from enjoying those elements of living that are not problematic, scarce though these might be.

If there is a particular form of pornography you prefer, Ma'am, my advice would be to buy as much of it as you can lay your hands on, and console yourself with it, and hope that you will have assisted in creating a sufficient demand for it by emptying the shelves as to stimulate the production of it in greater quantities. The most common reason for resort to pornography and prostitutes is to imagine doing, or to do, things that a partner does not do, or that a person is ashamed or afraid to ask a partner to do. In sexual matters particularly, of course, people can be ashamed or fearful over the oddest things, and may not really have real reason to fear the rejection that they fear, or they may simply lack the social, or even manipulative, skills necessary to entice or secure consent from someone who loves them. People have no control whatever over what forms sexual excitation takes for them, and cannot really be trained to find it in things other than the form it has taken for them so long as they have been impelled by the urge. So telling people not to be moved in the ways that they are, and particularly to tell them that they should not be moved in the ways that they are, is an exercise in futility, and is certain to be greeted with a good deal of heat, since most people are well aware of the immutable nature of the thing.

"If your sexual fantasies were truely of interest to others, they would no longer be fantasies."

[Nadienne]

404. I find it telling

that they defend it and call it "normal". Whether it's normal or not, I don't think the straight white men here would appreciate being called "abnormal" (or "queer" or "sick" or "perverted") because then they would start to identify with the victims of pornos. God forbid! They aren't the losers drinking cum; they're the manly studs who administer the cum!

[Name removed]

412. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nadienne]

419. Yup, you found us out.

We just can't get enough of the cock and it's juices, and if we turn it down, it's because we're playing hard to get.

:eyes:

There may be some who really do, but I bet others are more likely stroking a man's ego or trying to salvage their dignity.

If you enjoy the taste of vaginal juices, I would bet that you're a very rare man. I think it's more likely that you enjoy the pleasure you cause by being such a stud.

editted to add: Porn seems to be marketted to straight white men. Think of all the porns that have women of different ethnic groups getting banged by white men.

[Name removed]

420. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nadienne]

421. No one ever implied...?

You wrote, "And, in case it escaped your notice, drinking cum isn't seen as magically degrading by many women; they like it." You implied that all women relish the act or result.

And I don't state that the act is an attempt to salvage a man's dignity. I state that some women pretend to like the act (ie, blowjobs, more specifically, drinking cum in their mouth) even though it assaults their dignity; therefore to salvage their (not the man's) dignity, they claim to like it. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear about that. And it's true that I'm not citing any psychological studies. I'm basing this on my own experiences. I used to have really low self-esteem. I needed approval, and if that meant drinking cum, then I drank cum. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is or was that way.

I wrote: "If you enjoy the taste of vaginal juices, I would bet that you're a very rare man. I think it's more likely that you enjoy the pleasure you cause by being such a stud."

You wrote: "Huh?"

When you perform oral sex for a woman, do you do it because you enjoy the taste? Do you do it because it makes her happy? And when she is happy, is there not at least one tiny part of you that is proud of your sexual skills? Could it be that pride in your sexual skills is your motivation for doing it?

I don't know what percentage of interracial porn released in the last 10 years is made up of black men and white women, but I would be interested in knowing what makes you think it is an overwhelming percentage. For instance, are these your observations from going to the video store?

[Name removed]

423. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nadienne]

427. Apparently not so clearly.

"You wrote, "And, in case it escaped your notice, drinking cum isn't seen as magically degrading by many women; they like it." You implied that all women relish the act or result.

"WTF? Many, as differentiated from 'all'. Nothing in my statement implies the entirety of the female populace, and I'll thank you not to try and attribute positions or opinions to me that I clearly do not maintain."

------------------------

"I state that some women pretend to like the act (ie, blowjobs, more specifically, drinking cum in their mouth) even though it assaults their dignity;

"No, it assaults your dignity. There is nothing to indicate that consuming cum from a male is somehow, mystically, degrading to women. That is an assertion you are making, and one that is backed up with nothing other than opinion."

Right here and now, there is nothing other than a woman's opinion to indicate that drinking cum is degrading. But right here and now, there is only a man (you) saying otherwise. How would you know if it's degrading or not unless you've done it?

---------------------------------------

"However, surely you must see that what you are doing is extrapolating your own experiences, filtered through what porn you have seen, onto the entire female population."

You may be right. I can only speak for myself, after all. The reason I think that I'm speaking for much of the female population (certainly not the entire female population) is... Take rape. Why is rape so much worse than stealing someone's car or slapping someone? It's because sex is more than a physical activity (at least for me and - I think - most women). Maybe the women in porns are rare (or at least not like me, if I'm the one who's rare). Or maybe they got pressured into it and are sacrificing something they might not have to sacrifice, if they were doing a different job.

------------------------------

"And when she is happy, is there not at least one tiny part of you that is proud of your sexual skills?

"No, that doesn't enter into it."

That, I find hard to believe. But I know it's not impossible, so I'll take your word for it.

---------------------------------

"It is my observation from involvement with the industry and my contacts and friends in it. In other words, first hand."

Again, I'll just have to take you at your word. I'm not going to quote you on it, though...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

432. Most Interracial Porn Is Black Man/White Woman

A google search or a cursory visit to an adult bookstore will confirm that.....


White man/Asian woman would be next with White Man/African Woman a distant third....


You asked why do men perform oral sex on women?


I would assume most folks perform oral sex on men or women because they get off on it...



on edit-here's the google link when you type in interracial porn

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=interracial+porn&btnG=Search

[DemocratSinceBirth]

431. Lots Of Men Perform Oral Sex On Other Men...

eom

[bloom]

299. susanbrownmiller.com

"We are not opposed to sex and desire, with or without the itch, and we certainly believe that explicit sexual material has its place in literature, art, science and education. Here we part company rather swiftly with oldline conservatives who don't want sex education in the high schools, for example.

No, the feminist objection to pornography is based on our belief that pornography represents hatred of women, that pornography's intent is to humiliate, degrade and dehumanize the female body for the purpose of erotic stimulation and pleasure. We are unalterably opposed to the presentation of the female body being stripped, bound, raped, tortured, mutilated and murdered in the name of commercial entertainment and free speech.

These images, which are standard pornographic fare, hive nothing to do with the hallowed right of political dissent. They have everything to do with the creation of a cultural climate in which a rapist feels he is merely giving in to a normal urge and a woman is encouraged to believe that sexual masochism is healthy, liberated fun...."

-------

Just to represent the opposing feminist statement.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

306. Bizzare

These images, which are standard pornographic fare, hive nothing to do with the hallowed right of political dissent. They have everything to do with the creation of a cultural climate in which a rapist feels he is merely giving in to a normal urge and a woman is encouraged to believe that sexual masochism is healthy, liberated fun...."


That is so bizzare...


A guy would have to be retarded to think all women dig all the acts portrayed in pornographic films....

Absolutely retarded...

[naryaquid]

351. ...You said it...Not us!

[naryaquid]

349. ...Thank you, Bloom.

[Name removed]

362. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tsiyu]

364. I'm really confused

First I'm told that "all men fantasize about degrading women" and that allowing men to watch the gang rape and torture of women in porn will save society from their sick minds ( in effect, imprisoning those men who might be dangerous by diverting their attention with violent porn. We all see how well THAT'S working. Yup. Haven't been any women raped since porn became a billion dollar industry - just gotta laugh at that argument.)

Then I'm told that there is no violent, degrading porn - that watching porn is as benign as watching Oprah and that all porn producers are just great people fighting for my rights. Which the hell is it, please?

[AngryAmish]

304. This is a really long thread

[Tsiyu]

310. And thank your Anabaptist God for that

This is the first "real" discussion I have seen on this topic at DU.

Most get locked, scorned or otherwise dismissed.

I am proud of all who had the fortitude to post here, even the Neanderthals among us....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

316. I Haven't Seen These Neanderthals...

Nobody in this thread is saying that women should be compelled to perform in these films or that all women or even some women enjoys the acts depicted in them...


I have seen all kinds of porn from straight to gay to interracial to lesbian to bisexual to transgendered...


I could take it or leave it...


It didn't turn me into Don Juan nor did it turn me into Ted Bundy...

[AngryAmish]

326. This is really weird

I am a fairly literate 36 year old guy. This morning I was reading a book about Oliver Cromwell. In the book the term "anabapist" was used. I had never heard of the word before. Now I get called anabaptist. I had to look it up.

Weird.

[Tsiyu]

339. Synchronicity

Anabaptists were pretty cool.

They liked that whole separation of church and state thing....

[JHB]

343. Just to keep the circle turning...

...one of the descendent denominations of the Anabaptists are the Amish, and THEY've had two threads today by my count...

[AngryAmish]

357. Are Mennonites anabaptists too?

I heard that the Mennonites (and maybe the Quakers) were similar faiths to the Amish.

(I'm not Amish. The handle is a tribute to Amish Roadkill).

[Tsiyu]

363. Yes

and I figured your moniker was in fun. Just couldn't resist.

[AngryAmish]

374. Fun?!?

see

[shawdogpro]

371. Shot to death??

Hunted down?...yes. Rounded up?...yes. SHOT TO DEATH?...Jim Crow perhaps, yet such a platform was not a founding ethic of the Black Panther Party.
Painting such an alarming literal picture to get your point across is quite pornographic in itself.
You are a talented writer, but using shock tactics to lure someone into reading your winded retort can leave a negative (as well as suspicious) afterthought.

[donheld]

425. Welcome to DU shawdogpro

:hi:

[lildreamer316]

377. ATTN please:

Alright. Enough. I will trust you all.
My hubby used to be a porn actor, and was pretty high up in the industry.
I am a stripper myself.
Ask/flame away.

[benburch]

388. Pleased to meet you!

I run WhoreNet, an international mailing list for sexworkers and sexworkers rights activists.

If you are interested in being on the list, PM me.

[Artemis Bunyon]

392. As someone who works in the adult entertainment industry, I can tell you..

...that your claim of pornography being overwhelmingly a "white man's" passtime is overwhelmingly BULLSHIT.

[naryaquid]

433. I really think that the argument that porn is an "overwhelmingly white ...

man's" obsession is irrelevant...White, Black, Latino, Asian..who cares?...It's a male thing...and the anti-porn argument stands on it's own, imho...It doesn't need "racism" to back it up..

[benburch]

436. That's BS too.

At least 30% of porn consumers are women. Which amounts to tens of millions of women.

[naryaquid]

437. ......30%?...maybe....it's still a decided minority....and it doesn't

surprise me..I myself am not against all material which might be labelled "porn"...I'm not, as many have conceded here, against all depictions of sexual behavior..

..Like them, however, I AM against violent and/or demeaning porn which could rightly be called "anti-female propaganda"...If you want to actually UNDERSTAND the reasons why so many women dislike porn (especially the ugly, mysogynist type) you really should try and learn by reading people like Susan Brownmiller, Catherine MacKinnon, Andrea Dworkin....You might THEN be in a position to talk...Now, I'm not always in complete agreement with all of these theorists, but I DO know where they're coming from...at least it would give you a chance to SEE things through the eyes of people whose shoes you can't otherwise stand in...

Without that, you're like White people who presume to lecture Blacks on how they should feel about how Whites treat them....People like me just shrug you off as someone who a: Doesn't know what he's talking about and b: Is too closed and insecure to look at the situation from another's point of view.

I'm sorry, but in my experience, the men who rant most loudly against feminism or certain feminist positions are the ones who know the LEAST about them...

[benburch]

438. I have read most of the texts you recommend.

I've been reading Dworkin since the early 80s.

I recommend to you the writings of Avedon Carol. Are you familiar with her?

[naryaquid]

439. ..Yes I am and she doesn't impress me. .. She strikes me

as your standard, simplistic "First Amendment Absolutist"....I admit that I was particularly struck by one of her statements which claims that "porn is not as violent as other forms of media"...and that "not seeing it" keeps people from that realization.
..It's interesting because, in fact, it's entirely untrue...She may get away with claiming it because, most women, in fact DON'T peruse "Adult" book stores and therefore don't know how vile and violent they can be.

It's interesting because Susan Brownmiller headed up an organization in New York the late seventies called "Women against Pornography"...An important part of what the group did was actually exposing women to Porn shops to SHOW them exactly how VIOLENT and UGLY it was...She and other members would take women on "tours" ....Most, like myself, had never been INSIDE such a store and we were "shaken" to put it mildly, by what we found...Sections marked "Mutilation", for instance...and guess what?...This was over A QUARTER CENTURY ago!!...I haven't visited any Porn stores lately, but judging by the MAINSTREAM mysogny I see and hear..I can't imagine why the Porn venues would have gotten any better.

[benburch]

441. You are projecting a mysogyny that for the most part isn't there.

I really believe that it is you who are not seeing things clearly, but it is really obvious that no evidence I present could possibly convince you of that.

[naryaquid]

445. ..Yes, that is the kind of thing that is said when one can't respond,

in a point by point manner, to the opposing argument.

[benburch]

446. No, it simply means you aren't worth the effort.

I've been responding, point-by-point, to people like you for decades on this and other related issues.

One thing I have learned is that some people have an unshakable faith that all men are out to degrade all women. Some even see all heterosexual sex as acts of violence against women. Literally no evidence is enough to shake this dishonest and irrational position, and I might as well argue the matter with my cats.

[naryaquid]

447. ...Yes, you are predictable....Unable to match my arguments, you try

for the over-all,(if empty) "last word"...Failing that, you go for the Blanket Put-Down..Not "worth it"?..No, dear, were that true, even in your eyes, you wouldn't have started in the first place..."Responded to 'people like me'for decades"?...Were that the case you'd have it memorized......Sorry, Loser!

p.s. I never said - nor do I believe - that "all men are out to degrade all women"...A hint:..try keeping your cool long enough to at least READ what is being said..you might do better the next time!

[Name removed]

448. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[naryaquid]

449. ...I don't have to - I've already talked to him personally!.....The deal

is, he doesn't know me very well, either...but he started with the personal attacks "you're not worth it".."people like you"....To the extent that he's against fascism, I admire him...like a lot of guys, though, he doesn't recognize it when it hits close to home as in fascist porn...even the above picture has a bit of it...I don't like Ann Coulter either..but I, for instance, would not - as this picture does - attack her gender...I wouldn't put a nazi symbol on Limbaugh's dick, for instance..It would be as juvenile as this photo..and what would be the point??.I wouldn't picture Kenneth Blackwell with a watermelon...get it?...The reasons Coulter is dislikable have NOTHING to do with Gender - the reasons Blackwell is dislikable have nothing to do with Race...BenBurch may be an o.k. guy - but he shouldn't be attacking fellow democrats who simply disagree with him on Porn...

[Name removed]

450. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[naryaquid]

451. ..uh...whatever!

:shrug:

[Name removed]

452. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[benburch]

458. I attack you because you have made up your mind in a factproof manner.

But, OK, list your argument point-by-point and tell me when you do so, point-by-point, exactly what I would need to show to change your mind on this issue, and I will do my best to meet those tests if they can be met. But should you name a test that is a logical impossibility, I'll feel free to call you on it.

I still think you are not worth the effort to convince, as I don't believe that you have an open mind on this issue. And yes, I feel free to use "people like you" because I have heard the same rhetoric repeated to me by others so many times that I'm pretty much ill from it.

I'll make the opening salvo; so you can see where I am coming from;

I believe that censorship of sexual depictions is the thin edge of the wedge that is being used to re-criminalize non-marital, non-heterosexual, and unconventional sexuality. All other legal acts can be legally depicted except sexual acts. This already places sexual acts in a different category from other legal acts from a law-enforcement point of view; Suspicion of making pornography can be used as a pretext to raid a person's home. And when they do so even polaroid snapshots can be used as the corpus of a felony conviction and a ruined life, or as material for blackmail. Once the criminality of sexual outlaws has been established by publicity of such notorious arrests and convictions, it becomes possible to build popular consent for a criminalization of sexuality, the closing of sexual minority-oriented business establishments, the firing of sexual minority employees, first just those in contact with children, and then in all walks of life. Soon sexual minorities become such pariahs that they can be rounded up for psychiatric treatment, and the forces of religious evil have won.

I believe that to back such censorship is to fully participate in that evil.

[benburch]

467. No?

Well, the offer stands when you figure out what proof to ask for.

[mongo]

462. Perhaps you should look at both sides

Maybe read Nadine Strossen's In Defense of Pornography or some of Dr. Marty Kliens essays on the subject. Maybe it would give you

a chance to SEE things through the eyes of people whose shoes you can't otherwise stand in...

[benburch]

463. For some people, any value system other than their own is repugnant.

Such people will make their perceptions of reality match their expectations so totally and with so much ego investment that to challenge any of the premises upon which their synergism has been spun is to attack them personally. There is no room for another point of view, and even if such writings were to be read they would be dismissed in some fashion, be that as "typical first amendment absolutists" or as "victims of the system forced to repeat its lies."

[Name removed]

455. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ixat]

464. Well-argued, and I agree with most of what you said,

but I still have one question. Your conclusion was that pornography caters almost exclusively to white males, and that may be so; however, would you also say that, were there more pornography that catered to other groups, such as women and ethnic and sexual minorities, they would still be less inclined to peruse it? In other words, are non-white-males intrinsically less likely to watch pornography?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

The Premise That Only White Guys Like Porn Is Absurd....

eom

[shondradawson]

468. For the TWENTY-FIFTH time already....

I NEVER WROTE THAT "ONLY OR ALL WHITE MEN LIKE PORN."

I WROTE THAT THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF MEN WHO PRODUCE AND CONSUME PORNOGRAPHY ARE WHITE MEN WHICH IS WHY IT WOULD APPEAR IT IS OVERWHELMINGLY MARKETED AND ADVERTISED TO WHITE MEN THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME.

HOW, PRAY TELL, DID YOU LEARN TO WRITE WHEN YOU CLEARLY CAN'T READ?

Furthermore, if my post and replies are so ridiculous, ludicrous, and absurd, if I am so shallow, hysterical, emotionally overwrought, why do your waste your time responding?

You can't fuck me.

WHY do you keep coming around?

You've spent enough energy fighting for your stack of porn, man.

Use it.

Get your "all your girls" off the shelf and see if they're "willing" to listen to you.

"All your girls" are always there for you, right?

Waiting to give you what you "need?"

So go get 'em, stud...

Go.

[Artemis Bunyon]

469. You're a hysterical, self-absorbed, quasi-fascistic idiot.

.

[shondradawson]

471. Good Porn Title: just needs a little more intensity

[JHB]

477. If it takes 25 times to get a point across...

...maybe you ought to consider the possibility that you did a really bad job of getting it across in your initial essay.

[shondradawson]

479. Taking "all" or "only" to mean

"overwhelming majority" is A (as in one) simple mistake.

Twenty-five mistakes, on the other hand, is another kind of "simple."

I have considered the possibility that I did a "really bad job of getting it across in my initial essay."

But then, "all white men" or "only white men" isn't written in my essay.

Anywhere.

So I got my point across well enough...

it just hit a brick wall.

[JHB]

481. Hit a brick wall, no. Set off a defense grid, boy howdy.

You haven't written in a vacuum. You use a lot of the same rhetoric as many who have, shall we say, a more sweeping agenda on this subject than you claim. And you used it in a confrontational, accusatory fashion, juxtaposing "white males" (no distinctions made therein) against other categories. Your responses have been peppered with conscending words, phrases, and innuendo.

A blue St. Andrew's Cross on an orange field doesn't make a Confederate battle flag, but don't wave one around while whistling "Dixie" then blame the Yankees for opening fire.

[shondradawson]

487. Aw, JHB, give me a break.

For some reason, I like you; so I want to believe many here have "a more sweeping agenda than the one I claim"...But you're not simple, from what I gather: you and I can read exactly what their agenda is in their responses...

You also overlook that there are a more than a few replies who read and clearly understood my post. There are a few who didn't entirely agree with it. But they didn't "open fire" with a "bitch against porn" shot, knowing many would climb on the wagon...that's a no-brainer, right, JHB? Just look at the example on this thread of no-brainers...

I wonder why you chose St. Andrew's Cross on an orange field...I would say "I was discovered in the library with the candlestick." (smile) I read what I read, I saw what I saw, and I wrote about it. Were my words peppered? Maybe so...

But give me this, JHB: what I wrote in my post is not what sparked this flame, but what I wrote about that many personal defenses read more into than what I actually wrote.

Give me that, man...and I'll stop growling. Cross my heart and kiss my elbow. (smile)

[JHB]

488. I'll give you that much if...

...you can "give" that many readers thought to themselves "I can name that tune in two notes" and didn't feel the need to read further.

[kwassa]

484. A little on porn demographics ...

brief quote:
http://www.caslon.com.au/xcontentprofile1.htm

Who is visiting adult sites (and paying for the privilege)?

The answer is that we don't know. Although not necessarily stigmatised, consumption of adult content/services is still a private activity for most people and there are considerable difficulties in gathering (and validating) data.

Much media coverage has not moved past claims that "four out of every 10 people using the Web have visited an adult site in the last week". That appears to be a figure extrapolated from early studies - such as that by Marty Rimm, highlighted here - that were severely criticised for methodological inadequacies - or based on the 2001 Forrester report that claimed 19% of North American users are regular visitors to adult content sites. Of that 19% approximately one in four are women, 46% are married and 33% have children.

(much more on the site with all the tenuous claims of different research organizations)

[kwassa]

486. A little more on porn demographics ...

Porn for women, by women?

Rique Harshman
A Little to the Left

http://www.cwru.edu/orgs/observer/archive/04-02-27/stories/Edit03.html

brief excerpt:

Reported in The New York Times, in December of 2003, over 10 million women logged onto porn websites. Being that The Times is “all the news that’s fit to print,” the increase in women manufacturing and consuming porn has made significant waves across the country. Women ages 18-34 (both straight and lesbian) are now the fastest growing audience for internet porn.

Dubbed “female empowered adult entertainment,” women across the country have decided to level the playing field of the porn industry by making what filmmaker Christina Head calls “sex and love from a woman’s perspective.” Head and her partner (strictly business partner!) lawyer Carlin Ross are just two of the exploding population of female porn-entrepreneurs.

IHead argues that the porn she and Ross produce is designed with their female audience in mind. Their “female empowered adult entertainment,” Head says, “features what women would expect from pornography. Plots, foreplay, and cuddling in the afterglow is all mindful to women’s tastes and suggests new possibilities for women’s pleasure.”

Digital Playground of California (a DVD porn distributor), Toys in Babeland (a sex-toys shop), and Adam & Eve (adult entertainment warehouse and distributor) have seen increases in sales up to 30 percent in 2003 alone. Adam & Eve Co. claims that women are now 30 percent of their market and that the explosion of internet porn and online sex-store shopping have caused their sales to go through the roof.

Critics of the “porn for women, by women” movement argue that “porn is still porn and a disconnect from the intimacy of sex.” Well, it’s a consumer’s world, right? It all goes to back to supply and demand. In the 18-34 female age group, high enough demand for porn from a female viewpoint has emerged. Women like Head and Ross are using artistic, expressive, and entrepreneurial liberties to satisfy the demand.

(more in the article)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

465. The Premise That Only White Guys Like Porn Is Absurd....

eom

[benburch]

466. In other countries...

the dominant ethnicity in porn mirrors the dominant ethnicity of the population.

There is a huge market, for example, in asian porn with asian women. (But they have their "exotic" market too - in Japan tall, blonde caucasian-featured women are a fetish for some.)

(And I in no way am attempting to insult anybody with the collective term "asian" - I simply don't have a better term for this.)

[shondradawson]

470. Thank You

That is actually what I would be most curious to observe, actually: how many members of the "minority group"will be more inclined toward pornography if the industry produced and marketed for them as well.
I do not think non-white-males are intrinsically less likely to watch pornography at all. Which raises my concern that be excluding certain groups, as pornography comes under greater fire, who will defend the right to pornography?

No politician or human rights organization is going to stand on the national platform in front of God and everybody and defend "Superfuckingsluts" or "TeenGangBang."

The industry and its consumers need to take responsibility for its own choices and actions; when that happens, nothing comes under question. Accountability can do wonders to legitimize the business in the eyes of the general public.

But when there are undeniable elements of racism, sexism, and homophobia, not to mention illegal acts, that's when you're going to run into trouble: not just with the religious right, or the moralists but with groups that consumers ARE found among, but have never been "considered among porn consumers."

Don't look to the First Amendment to defend porn, because it is only a matter of time before the Bill of Rights denies it like anybody else when it comes to what kind of porn or how much they carry. (smile)

[Old Mouse]

472. Nothing brings out the people like talking about sex

But I must agree with many that are making you angry. Only recently have minority men begun to reach economic parity with Caucasian men. Money, not differences in social values, are the reason for the lopsided ethic consumption of porn.

[shondradawson]

473. So if minority men had more money, they would buy more

pornography?

If you look at what minority men are notorious for buying now, sneakers, gold chains, car stereos and rims, drugs, alcohol, etc., it is hard to agree that they don't have the money to spend on pornography if they so choose.

In fact, according to the many that "are making me angry," pornography for "all" men is a need and minority men are no exception.

Going back to social values...pornography is perhaps not a choice for as many minority men as white men because it is not marketed to them, it is not produced specifically (as evidenced by the titles and references) for them.

I do believe more minority men as well as women would use more pornography if there was more accessibility in terms of fair and equal representations of sexual fantasy and not just the fantasies of the "target audience" of white men.

[sniffa]

474. that's a bit too Long

i mean, i "finished" before i finished the Letter.

and for future Letters, i reccomend starting off with, "i never beLieved this wouLd happen to me but...."

[Vinnie From Indy]

475. If You think PORN gets people fired up, try going into a Victoria Secret &

asking, "Does this stuff come in children's sizes?". (old comedy circuit joke)

[0007]

476. Holy cow! Now I know what ya mean by mad cow disease.

No problemo with the heifers. But man! those old fat cows can indeed moo to moral values, eh?

[shondradawson]

480. I didn't write about mad cow disease.

Are you responding to my original message?

My post was titled, "The Parables of Porn."

I believe you're on the wrong thread.

[0007]

482. No, I was being very factious to some of the old ladie type comments.

[0007]

485. One of the greatest porn books ever written was, "The Pearl"