Suggestion: Make DU a print publication

[Peak_Oil]

For some reason, having a piece of paper with something written on it is more legitimate than a computer screen with something written on it. I hereby suggest that DU print a magazine on glossy paper, $4.95 an issue, subscription based and magazine stand BOTH, monthly or bi-monthly as the case may be, to make sure our voice is heard far and wide.

DU is one of the best news sources around, along with tompaine.com, whatreallyhappened.com, informationclearinghouse.info, abunchofotherreallylongdomainnames.com, where I go to find out what's going on in our world with relation to the working man.

We could even give credit where credit is due. Imagine Amy Goodman's byline on a print article, or a monthly Noam Chomsky screed, or even more a Skinner Corner in the real world on paper for even the Republicans to read! I'd subscribe today, and I'll volunteer right now to work on it in some capacity.

Whether it's a magazine or a weekly paper like the Chicago Reader, the Village Voice, the LA Weekly, or whatever the case may be, I think it's a brilliant idea to take this entire movement of the people's media to the actual paper that somehow legitimizes our information in the world of people who Really Matter.

That's all.

[goclark]

1. DU could print a mini newspaper

that we could download and distribute each day.
The news would be current and the TRUTH.

Seee the thread on the mini newspaper.

[kc.ink]

2. These are really GREAT ideas. n/t

[lostnfound]

14. Yes, BOTH great ideas -- a daily printable paper & monthly mag

The former for all of us to circulate widely and the latter for we loyalists to subscribe to.

I'd like to be able to select a screen on DU every morning that would give something like the front-page features, but in an abbreviated form, and arranged in a print-able, already-nicely-laid-out format.

I would print it, copy it and pass it out to people everyday. Something that gave them an alternate take on stories they might be missing.


The monthly mag would be a great way to catch up on what we might have missed during the month.

[Peak_Oil]

5. Not so much download as PRINT.

I'm serious about having this on paper. You never know, there might be a dozen other message boards out there that might like to collaborate on this and make a real Proletarian Paper written by/for the working (wo)man. How hard could it be? DU, SDMB, fuckedcompany.com, peakoil.com, craigslist.com, there's got to be a dozen that would be interested in participating in a print newspaper that's legitimately for and by the common people.

How do we go about this? I know there's shitloads of copyright issues, and each board would have their own copyright issues to deal with, as well would the posters who get printed.

I hope the owners of DU chime in on this soon.

[goclark]

17. Me too, its the only way to get the word out

The media will not do it for us.
The internet can not reach as many as we need to reach.
It has to be like a chain newspaper. Read it and pass it on to those you see each day.

[Eric J in MN]

3. If there were a monthly magazine called "Democratic Underground,"

I'd subscribe.

[linazelle]

13. So would I (subscribe)...and I think that the topics here need to be

saved because this is one of the few places you actually see the truth printed but it's so fleeting--like the quote from Rumsfeld about shooting down the planes in PA on 9/11 to CNN. I would like to see at least the topics nominated for the front page be part of the print paper. We'd all be a little more careful about what we nominate. And I'd want something weekly by mail, there's too much info to compile for a monthly pub.

[calimary]

20. KICK! Nominated for homepage.

[autorank]

4. It would have THE BEST GRAPHICS in the industry.

I have to say,the original graphics around here are simply awesome. Some of you folks are artistic/satirical geniuses.

[goclark]

27. I agree! It should be so unique

Not like any old boring newspaper.

It should be quick.snappy graphics, list websites to visit for more information.

The info given should just be enough to spark the interest of those that deon't take the time to " Read All About IT!" L:ke people use to do before the internetg and hectic schedules.

[MissBrooks]

6. That would be cool..

[KSAtheist]

7. Question...

Would it encompass a wide range of views, or would it be geared towards, how should I say, a more selective audience?

[Peak_Oil]

9. Good question.

Why not gear it to be as proletarian as possible?

I'd even think that putting up a mission statement to say that "This paper serves 98% of US citizens, the ones who own less than $2,000,000 in invested capital and/or have less than a $200,000 income."

That's a pretty broad constituency.

You could even add a line that would state, "If you own more than $2 million in invested capital or make more than $200K/year, please put this magazine back in the rack."

I wonder how that would go over.

[KSAtheist]

11. What content would it have?

Would it focus on economics and constitutional issues, or would it throw a bone to the MIHOP people and other assorted tin-foil types?

[Occulus]

22. I mentioned this last night, I think, on another thread

This is something that ought to happen, but for it to be a success it must have the same quality of contributions that this site has. To that end, I'm wondering if articles might not best be taken from the DU threads themselves. The Plame threads are a textbook example of internet research in action. There have been other discussions here as well that would merit being committed to print.

I would subscribe. If nothing else, it would be a good digest for things I might miss- and I would be able to take it to work and use it as reference in my political discussions :)

I think if we did this it should be as closely tied to this website as possible; a companion print publication, if you will. Who knows? It could end up being big (as we leave it in places it might be found and read). We could even, were it to catch on, include a CD of that month's website threads in portable form, or a sampler thereof, like PC Gamer et al do.

I like this idea. :)

[Peak_Oil]

23. Yeah. That's good.

The Plame threads, condensed to get the content in a smaller amount of space, would be an absolutely amazing piece of journalism to publish. I bet having the threads from which the articles are written available in full form on CD would be a great thing to have. What would the Plame threads run, a hundred pages of single-spaced text? It's huge! Lately, the threads on voting fraud would fill a solid book quickly, too. You know, this could really be huge. It would make 60 minutes look like PeeWee's playhouse week after week.

[goclark]

25. I think it should be for the CLUELESS

at least the version that we could print out on a daily basis with no more than 2-three snips from excellent articles.

We are committed to the cause, we know how to interpret the ROVEMEDIA. We must reach the CLUELESS that don't take the time or don't have the time to read.

Fox News is so successful because they are to the point and you don't have to think. You just have to believe that you just heard the truth and continue living in a fog.

For example, I was talking to a very intelligent democrat that is 32 years old. She told me the only news she will watch is CNN because Fox is not FAIR!

She was shocked when I told her that they were both telling her LIES all day and all night.

[goclark]

35. IMO it should be geared to the TRUTH

to counter the LIES that people hear all day/night on the neocon controlled media.

It must be brief for people that don't have time to read all the in depth posts that we have here.

We know how to seek out the TRUTH, there is a vast audience of people out there who are not taking the time to READ, they are in the ticker tape bottom of the screen generation.

Our problem is that the ticker tape and our local newspapers are NOT telling the TRUTH.

We can not change that without sending all the neocons and corporate bosses to the Ukraine. That won't happen so we must CREATE a variety of alternate news sources that will reach those that are not tied to the internet, like we are.

[EC]

8. I was thinking that

the time is right for the free press to start again...a new paper, this is how the Onion started and several other progressive, political papers...

[Peak_Oil]

10. What would it take to begin?

how much money would it take to start a magazine or a weekly newspaper? I don't know. I'll make the phone calls this week and find out. Let's see what it takes to make this happen.

[goclark]

28. Sounds like a wonderful idea Peak_Oil nt

[AmericanErrorist]

12. How 'bout a digest of the best columns

and posts that has graced these servers?

[SmokingJacket]

15. Great idea!

I'd help, too.

[Stephanie]

16. I was thinking the same thing - I'd like a printable version of Truthout

Is there a way to do that? I'd love to hand free copies of Truthout to people - if I could just print them up myself.

[calimary]

18. Smashing idea! I'd subscribe. Plus, as a print outlet, it would gain

de facto credibility and be taken just a wee bit more seriously as such. It should, very definitely, be something in print. How many of us have the time and/or file cabinet space to print out and save or pass around the source material that's generated here, in the space of - say - even just a single morning? Plus, the commentary, parsings, analyses, and various rants that accompany these items?

If this went into a print vehicle, it would absolutely be taken more seriously, and the wisdom in it would get out farther. Not everybody has the internet, OR the time on the internet to indulge in hours of rummaging around in here? And for me, for example, there's been too much else to do in and around Christmas week that I haven't even been online to check my regular emails for about 8 or 9 days. This is the first day I've spent here in more than that timeframe. I have no way of knowing what-all I missed. A weekly publication, or every other week, or monthly to start, would be HUGELY appreciated.

I'm in, definitely.

Please let us know what you find out, Peak_Oil. STELLAR idea. Just STELLAR.

Besides, it would be another great way to support DU...and maybe even provide the groundwork for DU to expand into a full-fledged think tank. It sure seems and feels a lot like one now. Such a thing is desperately needed in these times, would gain this/us a tremendous amount of added luster and credibility (think talking heads - how come all they ever pull from, when some chat show wants a "leftie" is either "The Nation" or the Brookings Institution?) and where else would there be such fertile soil for it to blossom than here in/on DU?

[Peak_Oil]

21. Here's one thought.

There's a rock and roll monthly called maximumrocknroll that's been in operation for quite some time run out of San Francisco. They have a cover price of $3, run about 125pp or so, and exist without any major advertising. It's a minimalist kind of an operation, all black and white on newsprint, no glossy pages, not really the nicest looking magazine ever made, but probably inexpensive to get up and going.

It might be interesting to see if it's possible to print it on 100% recycled newsprint. Just a thought.

I'd really like to see zero advertising, and just have the cost of the magazine be enough to cover printing and office expenses, run as kind of a nonprofit. Charge enough to build up a prudent reserve fund or funds to expand operations somewhat, but mainly exist as a labor rights type organization that cannot be bought out by advertisers.

I wonder if Will Pitt would want to get involved with this? I think it might be worthwhile to have a couple of different websites involved. Imagine having ten pages devoted to informationclearinghouse.info, thememoryhole.org, tompaine.com, commondreams.org, and a dozen other websites that put together information for all of us. Legitimizing these sources by putting their information on paper, actual physical paper, would be a huge step forward in this people's media project that we're all involved in already. Plus, it'd be great publicity for each of those sites.

Anyway, I fired off an email to MRR to see what their operational expenses are. I bet we could raise the money to do this whole thing ourselves, right here on the board.

Any DU mods watching this? Am I out of line talking about this here?

Somebody flag this for the mods... I don't want to stir up a tempest without checking with the powers that be... though I do hope it's a welcome thought here.

I really think that message boards have become the media of the people, but they're not as popular as we might think. Millions and millions of people don't read these. They're just not as informed as the average board reader is. This is a way to put the amazing investigative resources of the boards into print for other people's benefit. Hopefully, it wouldn't get corrupted by advertising bling.

[goclark]

24. There must be a small daily edition to download

The way that the news is unfolding ,just on the election fraud, a weekly or monthly may be wonderful but it is not the entire answer.


Your Words, that I totally agree with....
"I really think that message boards have become the media of the people, but they're not as popular as we might think. Millions and millions of people don't read these. They're just not as informed as the average board reader is."

In order to reach the masses of people that are CLUELESS unless they see it on a ticker tape at the bottom of the TV screen, it must be very small and cheap to produce and eye catching.

As much as I love politics I don't have time to read another long newspaper,scroll through all the ads and read info on Friday that is not operative by the next Monday.

Also, the younger generation is so cell phone literate, they should be able to get news flashed messages instantly.

I sure wish that someone would talk to the MODS at DU and have DU be the outlet for all of these ideas.

[secedeeconomically]

19. Good ideas will spread eventually regardless of the medium

I can’t imagine a better way to reach more people around the world than the net?

[goclark]

26. If the internet could reach enough people

then everyone would be in the streets understanding that the election was FIXED.

We are here at DU and other sites spreading the word each day and I have not talked to more than 2 people that know there will be protests on Jan.6th and 20th.

There must be a tiny newspaper that you can read and give to another and it is passed around everyday.

In order for that to happen, folks on the net, like us, must print out the mini news each day and make it our duty to pass it on and keep it going.

It would become an UNDERGROUND mini newspaper.

[BeFree]

29. Maximum Democracy

A newspaper about DU and what we are discussing. What a great idea.

Imagine this headline: Tsunami

Democrats from around the world spread the news as quick as it comes in, and many add their own commentary and analysis as the event and aftermath unfolds. Some of the more comprehensive threads can be found by clicking this link: http://dontclickthis/its_a_fake_link.com

Keep on top of the issue along with other progressive minded individuals as Maximum Democracy takes place 24/7.

Another: A Stolen Election

Facts, figures, and the truth about America's recent election are freely dispersed at DU: A worldwide endeavor of netizens praticing Maximum Democracy from keyboards around the world. Critical analysis of exit-polling, number crunching, and political opinions are displayed for all to see at http://another_fake_link.com

That's an idea, anyway. We'd have to have some editing and a good dose of moderation before assembling the pages, and add a whole lot more to the actual articles, but the production could become a reasonable alternative to the M$M. And turn a lot more people onto DU in general.

[goclark]

30. Great ideas, when can it get started?

The whole concept is one that IMO should be embrased asap.

How can we get the idea to the people that can make it happen?

[Peak_Oil]

31. Couple things.

1. Official recognition by DU
2. Money
3. Chutzpah

Please, somebody, alert the Mods that this is of interest. I don't know how.

Next, we need to raise money. This is not a cheap thing to do. Maximum Democracy would probably need $30,000 to get started. Not a paltry sum. If DU is interested, we need to get rolling.

Finally, who else wants in on performing labor on this topic? I'm down, as are a couple other people in this thread.

[goclark]

32. Is there a way to start small?

Could DU or some talented creative person make a mock up of a mini newspaper that we could printout and distribute to friends?

The costs of that would be much less than $30,000 and the printing would be taken care of by all that want to get the word out to the people that they meet.

I know nothing about the way stuff works but I have another question.

Isn't it true that every time someone goes into a site like DU the site profits in some fashion? If so, If we had a 1/2 page or full page daily/weekly "newsheet/newspaper that anyone could print out if they visited the site wouldn't that be a boost and advertise the coolest SITE on the Web...DU?

[Peak_Oil]

33. I don't see why not.

If anyone has Pagemaker and a way to convert Pagemaker files to .pdf for downloading and printing, I'm sure we could get a daily going here without much trouble. Maybe start with a four-page daily, two pages double-sided, that we as individuals can print out in the morning before work or school or whatever, and print ten copies to distribute wherever we go. That shouldn't be too tough.

The only downside to doing it as an internet publication is that I doubt it would be much better than just reading the board. Why wouldn't they just read the board instead? The magazine is something that is hard copy, filed for reference later, and has a certain amount of prestige behind it.

As a magazine, we could reference KPFK, Democracy Now!, expose people to all kinds of crazy stuff they'd never have heard of before.

And, we could beat Free Republic to the punch.

Oooooh.

Anyway, it's probably time for the mods to jump in on this discussion and kill it if they don't like it. Guys?

[goclark]

34. Mods can you help us out?

I loved your idea about the daily printing of a small paper that we could print out.

Here is the reason why we should print it out and distribute it...

I have tried to encourage so many of my friends to go on line and send excellent articles to five or more friends. These are people that like politics, they use the internet and they want to stay up to date.

Some have told me that they don't want to read lots of threads everyday on a variety of topics, they don't want to take the time to sift through all topics, they just want THE FACTS.

They don't even want to read articles. They just want THE FACTS.

They don't even want to read the LA TIMES because there are too many right wing articles,the paper is filled with ads ,they just want THE FACTS and they want their FACTS IN BRIEF FORMAT.

That is why, IMO, the ticker tape works so well on cable. CNN can just scroll the lies, you don't have to read Time or Newsweek or anything longer than 3 minutes.

Some of my friends tell me that they don't even have time to get to their email everyday because they ,"don't have time" to read and respond.

We must get the word out about Jan.5th and January 20th by every means necessary.

Help! If anyone can get us going on a format and the rules for making this happen, that would be awesome.:bounce:

[BeFree]

36. Posted in ATA

I posted a link to this discussion on the Ask The Admistrators board.

Title: "An Idea to explore?"

'Course they are busy as can be, and there remains much work to be done before the idea is rounded out.

Methinks a once a week pub with just enough details in it to inform folks on four or five issues, with links to special pages on DU whereupon our thoughts are condensed, would be quite enough. Simple, but requiring a great deal of work to establish, but resulting in a paper that DU'ers could print and distribute freely.

If space were provided on a DU server, and we are able to polish our ideas, we may be able to launch such an operation. One benefit would be thousands of new subscibers to DU, so there is a built in economic benefit.

[goclark]

38. Thanks befree!

Even if we had a one page fold over paper with two snips from 2 DU articles regarding the protests on Jan.6th and 20th that would be a great start.

I love your idea about referring the reader to democratic underground for more details!

It must have a creative title and jazzy banner headline.
It would still create hits because we need to get this info out ASAP.

I print my own newspaper twice a week and leave copies everywhere that I go. I also pass them along to friends that I meet.

I just don't know how to dump it into a post from Microsoft office.
Can someone tell m how to do it?

My CLIP mini newspaper would not be anywhere near as influential as a "Here Is The TRUTH from DU" or some other such title.

[Occulus]

40. as to why they wouldn't just read the board

For one thing, there are some discussions here that I really wouldn't wish to commit to print ;) And, for a better reason, a condensed version would only include the most important issues of the intervening time- only the threads with the "best" discussion (research, multiple interpretations of chains of events, and so forth) would be able to be nominated for the print edition. I expect the editors of the Official DU Digest (to suggest a working title) would choose which content to include, but I'd like to see input on each edition from the DU membership if this were to come into being.

And, of course, there should be a hate mailbag, just for kicks. :)

[BeFree]

43. Details

A Moderator in close contact with Administration would be appointed to oversee the online aspects. I would imagine a DU link such as this:

http://du.print.com/ Nice and easy to type out in an address bar.

There would be a concise summary of each 5(?)issues on the front page with links to the full 9,000 word discussions, and another link to a fuller summary, thereby giving two options to the newly arrived consumer.

The print edition would be done totally on a volunteer basis by each and every interested member, therefore that part need be no more than one page. If it took off, we could grow it into a full newspaper at some point.

More?

[goclark]

49. We could include just the items from the front page

those items would have been nominated by us.

The problem with the front page is the graphics would be hard to printout if we tried to copy them and pass the front page out.
It would look really crappy as a print friendly version of the front page.

My idea is just to have a banner page to print out the news of the day. Something with just a few snips from two articles.
I know it would be "hard work" :) but it would pay off IMO.

I just want it to have info that the masses of people need to know.
Very simple.

[htuttle]

37. Been there. Done that. IT'S A NIGHTMARE!!

I've had a hand in publishing or operating about 4 or 5 'alternative' print publications in my lifetime. Most were weekly or semi-weekly. Few lasted beyond a year or two.

Printing and distributing a paper publication is a HUGE endeavor logistically. Even if you're only doing a print run of a 10,000 or so, it will take a LOT of work to keep most of them from ending up stacked in someone's garage for all eternity.

If you are thinking about something better than newsprint, you better have a LOT of startup money. Glossy color magazines cost huge bucks to print.

OTOH, another tack I've taken in the past was to do special print runs targeted at protest and/or political events, concerts, etc... For example, before a big protest, print about 10K-15K newsprint magazines (or half-broadsheet papers), and have people hand them out at the event. A number of successful (and now regularly published) alternative papers started out this way. I think this would be squarely in the realm of the do-able.

Anything more ambitious than that in the world of print will chain you to the rat race of garnering advertising dollars, and that is when it stops being fun. Fast.

Finally, to the best of my recollection (and in 1990 dollars), a print run of about 15K 4 sheet folded broadsheets (which could be a 16 page paper, or 32 page 'newsprint magazine) will cost about $1,500-$2K. That's with one spot color, and doing all the pre-print processing yourself. Split between a small group of people, it can be fairly affordable. Distributing all the damned things will always be the biggest hassle.

That's my $0.02 of experience on this.

[goclark]

39. Really valuable input

That is why I am not in favor of starting that big.

I am just begging for even a once a week page at DU that we could print off ourselves.

The distribution of a newspaper as you talked about is way above where my head is. : )

[Occulus]

42. I doubt anyone is willing to go that big just yet

I certainly would not want, welcome, or be able to participate in a startup of that magnitude. However...

A small, easily-home-printed, perhaps four page .pdf file would be a good start. I don't think the material or the method of printing is as important as it being eye-catching, and a good way to make something like that might be to instruct that the people handing these out print the "cover" on photo paper and print that one page at high resolution (with all other pages being on "regular" paper) so as to 'look good'.

Just my $.02, but first impressions are a big deal, and if we create a professional-looking cover, it'll be more likely to be noticed and read.

[gjb]

46. Actually you could build a downloads page and publish a DU info ...

mag in PDF. Just take some of the better articles and pertainent threads and put together a general political information and commentary magazine that home users could print and distribute to interested parties. You could even charge a nominal fee. DU'ers may even qualify for press credentials at conventions.

[Buns_of_Fire]

48. That would be my thought...

IIRC, Adobe (the erstwhile vendors of Acrobat) allows subscriptions where you can ship the "raw" text (in Word, WordPerfect, or whatever) to their website as an attachment to an e-mail. In a few minutes, they ship it back to you (also as an e-mail attachment) all nice and converted to .pdf format.

Once you've got the file, the Acrobat reader is free, and once you've got the file and the reader... presto! 60,000 or so newspersons, of which I personally would certainly be willing to Xerox off a few extra copies and distribute them around my little corner of the earth!

The only problem I can see is that someone would have to administer/edit this, and I would figure that Skinner, EarlG, and Elad have their plates pretty full at the moment.

But, allowing for the people-power issues, go for it! Hey, nothing ventured, nothing gained!

[SouthPasadenaDem]

41. Oh please, oh please, oh please ...

This thread is SO full of good ideas.

I particularly like the idea of having a daily-couple-of-sheets of double sided material that I could print off a couple of copies every day to "leave for the next person to read" on my daily commute to downtown on the train. For example I see people leaving religious tracts in each seat (often moderately substantial pamphlets) -- literally working the whole train, as it were, with their literature. Even though I, personally, am not interested in reading those I always love it when someone before me has left the daily newspaper and I can browse it on the ride. Fold it neatly and leave it for the next person. You know, an act of thoughtfulness, not one of littering.

A printed monthly for subscribers would, of course, be great, but a method to distribute news and analysis that the MSM is ignoring, all on a regular basis, in brief and concise form, and as it is happening in real time so that people can get counteranalysis to what there're currently hearing in the MSM (not a month later after the've moved on to other events) -- the kind of news and analysis that we're all geting here at DU -- well, I can't recommend this idea enough!

Keep it short (a couple, maybe three double-sided pages, standard letter size), post it to DU as a PDF so it will be simple for anyone to print up, update it regularly (once daily or even twice a week or weekly if that's all that can be handled in the beginning -- just on a regular and expected basis so people will know to download and distribute, for example, on Monday and Thursday).

Then stand back and let the good members of DU do the rest. Look, if only 10% of the DU membership (estimated at, what, 50,000 (?) if you leave a margin for those registrants who, for whatever reason, got bored, distracted, or whatever, and no longer log onto DU), that's an INSTANTANEOUS CIRCULATION of say 5,000 copies, on say a bi-weekly basis. Wow.

And what about all those people who only visit to read the news and opinion at DU, but never register. There's got to be at least an equal number of those; if 10% of those would commit to distributing one copy to a friend or neighbor, of a twce-weekly newsletter, and there are another 50,000 unregistered-but-regular readers (I was one for years), well that would mean another 5,000 issues of circulation (10,000 issues total) of said bi-weekly news-and-analysis within the first month.

I'd distribute it to my friends and fellow neighborhood democrats - not to mention leave a copy on the train everytime I could -- I'm betting that thousands of DUers would do the same.

[goclark]

44. Brilliant ideas! Now if we could get it going!

I am so excited about the idea of Spreading The Word that I am jumping out of my chair!
We must make it happen but how?

Someone did post it for the Administrators but how will we get an answer?

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

45. Great idea. I'd buy it. n/t

[goclark]

47. I just read a post @starting a newspaper in

Ask the Administrators and the response was a negative.
They said they had thought about it but wished to just stick to the internet options.

My question still remains, if there could be a page from DU that we could copy and print out ,fold it in thirds like a newspaper, that would involve no subscriptions, could DU do handle that option?

I can truly understand how much work is involved in a subscription effort.

But,maybe there is another avenue. I so wanted it to be a DU.

I'll try to contact another website.
Anyone else have a lead let us know.

[AngryOldDem]

50. That is one COOL idea

[imabadman]

51. Print is too slow...

By them time you receive your hard copy it would be irrelevant.

[StClone]

53. The point is not just currency but enduring truths

There are concrete bits of information that a newspaper laying around for others to consume and thus influence.

[goclark]

54. It would not be too slow if you could print it out each day

We are thinking BIG but we should think Small at first.


All we really need is someone to start a page here that would be printer friendly that has just the facts of the day.
Print copies on critical news days and distribute it like a CHAIN.

[StClone]

52. I would donate!

Seriously I'd donate just to do a feasibility study and strategic planning to get this off the ground. Count me in!

[kiki]

55. These chaps are trying something similar:

www.bulbmag.com